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Weapon-X
24-11-2007, 03:51
I appologise if this question has already been answered previously but my search function is currently not working. Now just as the title implies, I was wondering if models such as war machines (the machine itself) and chariots are instantly destroyed by this spell. Considering they do not have an initiative value, I would say yes. However, the rulebook states that for characteristic tests models that have a value of zero auto fail. I am not sure how to interpret this as these models do not have a value of zero but have a dash through the characteristic. Any help or rationale explaining this scenario would be greatly appreciated.

Weapon-X

pcgamer72
24-11-2007, 06:24
Models that have a - count as having a zero I believe. So they fail automatically.

WLBjork
24-11-2007, 09:12
Agreed. From page 5 of the BRB
Some creatures have been given a value of '0' (sometimes shown as a dash '-') for certain characteristics, which means they have no ability whatsoever in that skill.

Edit: Note that whilst this sentence mentions only creatures, the final example given also mentions warmachines.

T10
24-11-2007, 10:09
Chariots typically have an Intiative value assosciated with its crew or its steeds.

-T10

Weapon-X
24-11-2007, 14:29
thanks for clearing that up guys. On the chariot issue, I was thinking of using it on my buddies priest on war altar. The chariot itself does not have an initiative value but the character does. Since the shooting and magic hit a chariot on 1-5 and the character on a 6. I suppose it would auto fail and the character would test as normal?

EvC
24-11-2007, 15:34
I believe so, but remember you have to get through MR2, and then it'll only be a partial hit anyway...

highelfmage
24-11-2007, 18:15
I believe so, but remember you have to get through MR2, and then it'll only be a partial hit anyway...

it is not partial. if something is under the hole it counts as being automatic hit.

Weapon-X
24-11-2007, 19:13
well, I use teclis or the book of hoeth, so I have an alright chance of getting it through. I'll at least consider it an alternative to destroying it. I'll try to hammer it with my starlance wielding noble first. ;-)

theunwantedbeing
24-11-2007, 21:04
The pit of shades doesnt state that models under the centre hole are hit automatically, so theya re not.
In the case of a chariot is is impossible to completely cover the chariot and so you require a 4+ to actually hit the thing.

It does "state" models without an initiutive value.
Note a chariot "model" has 4 initiutive values, one for each of the crew and on for each thing pulling the machine.
The machine itself may well have no initiutive but that is because it is never used.

So you first have to cast the spell,
Have your opponent fail to dispel it(or just not bother trying to),
Roll a 4+,
Finally have your opponents fail their initiutive test(which could be as high as 5).

However, hitting war machines and such that are models on their own with no initiutive value, they fail the test immediately and (not being chariot sized) will fit under the 3" small template and not require a 4+ to be rolled and simply fail their initiutive test as they do indeed have no initiutive.

So it's really quite bad at taking down chariots, due to their large size and often having quite a good initiutive, although it's very good for removing war machines like cannons and bolt throwers as they do not have any intiutive value.

Weapon-X
24-11-2007, 21:21
Right you are. I guess I'll have to keep nuking war machines and low I troops with it then. I guess that reserves the lance strictly for the war altar.

DeathlessDraich
25-11-2007, 09:47
Considering they do not have an initiative value, I would say yes. However, the rulebook states that for characteristic tests models that have a value of zero auto fail.

1) The chariot is 1 model and does have an Initiative value, that of the crew and steeds as T10 mentioned.

2) If you simply read the chariot's Initiative as the *chassis' Initiative*, which is - (or 0), then you must apply the same process for its Movement which is '-'.
Since the chariot's M is not 0, therefore its Initiative cannot be 0.

3) This rule has to be considered for the chariot profile to make sense of its characteristic values:
pg 62 "some characteristics are not included in the profile as they are never used"