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zekrish
24-11-2007, 12:39
Greetings from the land of polar bears and blondes!

Now for the age old fluff rumor... is it Horus that sit upon the golden throne??
This has been hinted in some very old fluff, and the proof would be:


1.In the final battle Rogal Dorn misstook Horus for the emperor, they are after all cloned son adn father and both clad in ragged and torned terminator armour(and badly wounded).

2. Would the emperor really be so selfish to want to live forever?


3. Why did Abaddon Burn ''Horus's'' body?? maybe he discovered it was the emperors!

4. Why do Chaos always fail to invade the Imperium?? Maybe they don't whant to kill the ''Emperor'' for then chaos greatest champion would truly die and chaois die

so what do ya think??

MVH johan

KwisatchHaderach
24-11-2007, 12:42
I'd say this has about a .0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000001% chance of being true.

Sideros Peltarion
24-11-2007, 12:48
Greetings from the land of polar bears and blondes!

Now for the age old fluff rumor... is it Horus that sit upon the golden throne??
This has been hinted in some very old fluff, and the proof would be:


1.In the final battle Rogal Dorn misstook Horus for the emperor, they are after all cloned son adn father and both clad in ragged and torned terminator armour(and badly wounded).

2. Would the emperor really be so selfish to want to live forever?


3. Why did Abaddon Burn ''Horus's'' body?? maybe he discovered it was the emperors!

4. Why do Chaos always fail to invade the Imperium?? Maybe they don't whant to kill the ''Emperor'' for then chaos greatest champion would truly die and chaois die

so what do ya think??

MVH johan

Would be rather cool, however I doubt it.:(

Radioactive Bob
24-11-2007, 13:05
It goes against what we have believed for a long time. If it were true there'd be an outcry and alot of red faces.

zekrish
24-11-2007, 13:31
I'd say this has about a .0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000001% chance of being true.

Well... GW will never confirm it if that what you mean .P. But you must say itwould be cooool! cooler than *********** polar bears!

heretics bane
24-11-2007, 14:25
Because tzeenctch(sp cant never get his name right) is a real pain for every chaos incursion. If the imperium falls then every other race would start to fall which in time would start wiping out the galaxy which in turn would weaken the gods even more. And the big T would have any more puny humans to push about the place

And i dont see what the traitor marines would do if they finally did reach terra and kill the emporer
Abbadon:Finaly brothers we have killed the Emporer
*shouts cheers etc.*
Abbadon: Now death to the......ahh poop..
*starts prodding ground with deamon sword while thinking of something to say*

Commander Dante
24-11-2007, 14:30
ive heard of this theory before, i would have to say it is false because Horus was not a powerful psycher, if Horus was on the golden throne then there would be no astronomicon.

and Abbaodon destroyed Horus's body once they got into the eye of terror because Fabius Bile was trying to clone it.

DonKarst0n
24-11-2007, 14:31
Sorry but this is the most ridiculous 'want-to-be' rumor I've ever heard!
I mean seriously:
How stupid can someone be to confuse the Emperor with Horus???
Rogal Dorn: "Hey brother who is our beloved Emperor? The dude with the golden armor or the one with the evil grin on his face with the power claw and who looks every inch of his body to be gifted by the dark gods' powers?
Termie: "The bald dude with the black armour and Horus' heraldry."
Rogal Dorn: "Okay let's take him back to Terra."

Sorry but this is complete nonsense.

heretics bane
24-11-2007, 14:31
Maybe even if he was say, defeated by the emporer and he used it as a prison for horus? Theres not to many place you can lock a primach up in and expect him to stay there

MrBigMr
24-11-2007, 15:30
Sorry but this is the most ridiculous 'want-to-be' rumor I've ever heard!

Sorry but this is complete nonsense.
The Emperor could hide his identity, and I've read on Chaos sorcerers who have done it as well, hide from even people who have known them for a long time.

Besides, we're talking about old fluff here. Back then things were a little different, so I wouldn't put it past it back then. Today it's probably been phased out.


and Abbaodon destroyed Horus's body once they got into the eye of terror because Fabius Bile was trying to clone it.
I thought it was to get the full loyalty of the legion and destroy the legacy of Horus, as he had failed the gods.


2. Would the emperor really be so selfish to want to live forever?
No, he wouldn't, but a vegetable on life support probably won't want to live forever either and yet they often are forced to for a reason or another.

The Emperor was never to sit on the Throne for all eternity, but it seems that once the High Lords were given all the power in the universe, they kept Him alive as a figure head. Or that's a theory I have. Besides, without the Emperor, there is no astronomican, and without the astronomican the Imperium would be far smaller and gatting smaller all the time.

And lets not forget that His immortal ass is plugging the warpgate under the throne and stopping a daemon infection on Terra. There's another reason for him being there. No other psycher could hold the hordes back like the Emperor.


4. Why do Chaos always fail to invade the Imperium?? Maybe they don't whant to kill the ''Emperor'' for then chaos greatest champion would truly die and chaois die
We don't know what Chaos is planning. It might be that everything Chaos has done, has gone right according to plan...

Marstfu
24-11-2007, 15:51
I've read stories about this, yes.
Horus using his psychic powers to fool Dorn, getting taken to the Throne, usual story.

Death to the "False" Emperor is a hint too.
Why would they name him false, if he was the real thing?

DonKarst0n
24-11-2007, 16:02
Death to the 'false' Emperor they shout cause from their point of view he is the wrong person ruling over humanity, Emperor forgive me.

Gorbad Ironclaw
24-11-2007, 16:14
Death to the "False" Emperor is a hint too.
Why would they name him false, if he was the real thing?


Because the Chaos Marines don't believe the Emperor is fit to rule mankind, but wanted Horus for the job. That was sort of the whole point of the Horus Heresy ;)

Sabbad
24-11-2007, 16:17
This is the msot rediculous conspiracy theory I've ever heard.

I love it.

Sideros Peltarion
24-11-2007, 17:10
Abbadon:Finaly brothers we have killed the Emporer
*shouts cheers etc.*
Abbadon: Now death to the......ahh poop..
*starts prodding ground with deamon sword while thinking of something to say*

lol
Sigged

zekrish
24-11-2007, 17:43
Sorry but this is the most ridiculous 'want-to-be' rumor I've ever heard!
I mean seriously:
How stupid can someone be to confuse the Emperor with Horus???
Rogal Dorn: "Hey brother who is our beloved Emperor? The dude with the golden armor or the one with the evil grin on his face with the power claw and who looks every inch of his body to be gifted by the dark gods' powers?
Termie: "The bald dude with the black armour and Horus' heraldry."
Rogal Dorn: "Okay let's take him back to Terra."

Sorry but this is complete nonsense.

You sir are ridicoulus!

Mort
24-11-2007, 17:51
Ahhm. No.

The whole universe would be looking different if it was horus sitting on the throne.
And Horus was Primarch,that means he was way bigger than the emperor,so thers no way that they mistook Horus for the big E.

And the Fluff in the HH:Collected Visions is also pretty clear about the whole thing...

DonKarst0n
24-11-2007, 18:05
You sir are ridicoulus! :wtf:

No need for being offending dear Sir.
I did not intend to insult you and clearly stated that I find this rumor ridiculous not the one who wants to discuss it.

heretics bane
24-11-2007, 18:25
And Horus was Primarch,that means he was way bigger than the emperor,so thers no way that they mistook Horus for the big E.


Sorry? but how do you know the emporer isnt big if not bigger than a primach, where'nt they not created from his genes?

Stop flaming the OP, he brings up an intresting argument(if not a little rough) so instead of goin "ohh thats just stupid" look at it differently.

Cry of the Wind
24-11-2007, 20:43
This is the msot rediculous conspiracy theory I've ever heard.

I love it.

My thoughts too :D

That's one of the nice things about GWs poor canon control (and probably the only thing...). You can have a completly off the wall conspiracy theory that even if incredibly unbelievable, is still not 100% sure to be false either.

After all the C'tan clearly made Horus into the Emperor or something like that...or maybe it was the Harlquins....or the Old Ones...or...or...

Commander Dante
24-11-2007, 20:51
MrBigMr it is both, After Horus was killed and Rogal Dorn took the Emperor back to Terra, The Sons of Horus fled into the Eye of Terror where a series of small wars accured between the traitor legions in order to establish territory, during one such battle the Emperors Children led by Fabius Bile attack the Son's Of Horus's planet and take Horus's corpse in order to make clones. Abaddon retaliates and they shatter the Emperor's children's defences get back Horus's corpse and destry all of his clones. Abbadon then destroys Horus's body in order to prevent more attmepts to clone him and to get his legion to stop dwelling on thier Primarchs and legions failure. After he is done destroying Horus's corpse he renames the Son's Of Horus the Black Legion

Hellebore
24-11-2007, 21:29
If the Golden Throne only worked with psykers then there is no way Horus could be on it.

Biggest flaw in the whole argument.

Hellebore

Askari
24-11-2007, 21:36
I though all Primarchs had the capability, however little, of psychic talent.

Though Horus wasn't exactly blessed in that department at best.

Dakkagor
24-11-2007, 22:16
Never mind the near total physical corruption horus must have undergone as a pawn of the chaos gods, and the way he was killed even harder than the emperor was by horus. Never mind the different armour, weapons, or appearance. And surely, if Horus was strong enough to have tricked Rogal Dorn into thinking he was the emperor, why would he allow himself to be strapped into an eternal torture device that stops chaos from taking over earth? That seems rather contrary to the whole "rule humanity as a pawn of chaos" strategy of the heresy.

Cry of the Wind
24-11-2007, 22:22
If the Golden Throne only worked with psykers then there is no way Horus could be on it.

Unless the Old Ones did it...you know some rouge space frog came up with the idea to set up the Imperium as a means to fight the C'tan.... I know that's grasping but after all the canon debates I've seen and been a part of it's hard not to find silly ways to make anything justifiable.

For the record I think it's one of the most random and silly theories out there I've heard ever. That doesn't mean that in some twisted logic it could happen though...

It's not unlike how female marines or tau titans or some of the other things out there that in most peoples eyes are wrong (mine included) can be put into the fluff through twisting things around in the grey areas of fluff.

MrBigMr
24-11-2007, 23:02
Unless the Old Ones did it...you know some rouge space frog came up with the idea to set up the Imperium as a means to fight the C'tan....
Don't even go there.
I was reading Xenology just not and there was a bit that scared me. There was a tablet that pretty much featured the War in Heaven and the Fall of Eldar. At the very end, in picted 3 figures "survivors" of the events. One is a mask of a smiling and crying face, trapped in a spider web (the Laughing God?); a bloody clawed creature in pieces (Khaine?); the third piece was missing, but later was discovered. It picted an embryo inside a sphere that had lines coming from it, like a crude drawing of a sun. Starchild, anyone?


For the record I think it's one of the most random and silly theories out there I've heard ever. That doesn't mean that in some twisted logic it could happen though...
Oh, this one is pretty sane to me. I've heard and even made pretty wild theories with far less 'facts' to back them up.


It's not unlike how female marines or tau titans or some of the other things out there that in most peoples eyes are wrong (mine included) can be put into the fluff through twisting things around in the grey areas of fluff.
I've never viewed such things as canon, but GW has never denied them either (show me the official GW stand that says "no, never, not possible ever"). 40K isn't like law, it more like religion. If you start reading the Bible as the absolute word of God (hell, the Big Guy says very little in it, to tell the truth), you end up doing pretty crazy stuff. But if you take it as guidelines rather than actual rules, it's quite flexible. Lets face it, the fluff changes more often than an average player changes his socks, so if we start following the fluff as an absolute, there's something going wrong.

40K gives you plenty of space with everything. Even things like this. If people can make a million theories on who shot Kennedy and why, even when Oswald is the official shooter, then why is it so amazing some don't buy the official canon of 40K?

Hellebore
24-11-2007, 23:12
I've never viewed such things as canon, but GW has never denied them either (show me the official GW stand that says "no, never, not possible ever"). 40K isn't like law, it more like religion. If you start reading the Bible as the absolute word of God (hell, the Big Guy says very little in it, to tell the truth), you end up doing pretty crazy stuff. But if you take it as guidelines rather than actual rules, it's quite flexible. Lets face it, the fluff changes more often than an average player changes his socks, so if we start following the fluff as an absolute, there's something going wrong.

40K gives you plenty of space with everything. Even things like this. If people can make a million theories on who shot Kennedy and why, even when Oswald is the official shooter, then why is it so amazing some don't buy the official canon of 40K?

This (http://uk.games-workshop.com/spacemarines/initiation/3/) page (third paragraph in Recruitment and Initiation) explains that a space marine's geneseed only works with male hormones and that they "MUST be male".

That is your "no, never, not possible ever" statement about female space marines.

Hellebore

downundercadet07
24-11-2007, 23:18
Horus used a lightning claw, if I recall, and the emperor used a sword. Additionally, the emperor was man-sized, whereas Horus may have been up to nine and a half feet tall. Horus had black armor, and the emperor had golden armor, additionally, the physical corruption of Horus's body and armor would have been unmistakable.

Confusing the emperor with Sanguinus would be more feasible, as they had a similar facial appearance, and both had gold armor and used swords. But still, the wings probably would have given it away.

The emperor was also conscious when he returned to Earth. He spoke a little, gave a few orders and what not. This further confirms that it is the actual corpse of the emperor on the throne. Additionally, since his incarceration, there have been other times that he has apparently spoken, and none of these incidences support the idea that Horus was placed on the throne.

Finally, as Hellbore and someone else brought up, the golden throne requires a psyker, both to run the astronomicon, and more recently, to halt any further chaos incursion through the experimental web way portal underneath it. A psyker of such immense power that even malacar the sigillite was reduced to ashes in less than an hour after being placed on the throne. All fluff on the subject ever written indicates that Horus did not even have a trace of psychic power.

I've always wondered what happened to Sanguinus body. And why his corpse wasn't placed in stasis/carbonite/scrimshawed by the chapter masters, etc.

Cry of the Wind
24-11-2007, 23:39
40K gives you plenty of space with everything. Even things like this. If people can make a million theories on who shot Kennedy and why, even when Oswald is the official shooter, then why is it so amazing some don't buy the official canon of 40K?

That's what I'm saying. Just because it seems unlikely doesn't mean it can't happen. I might not like it but I will never be able to prove it wrong either.

Hellebore, I know you're trying there and I fully support you in the effort. I just have been in too many fluff debates to hold onto the things we take for granted in the fluff as written in stone and good forever. I've seen some pretty inventive ways to get around the geneseed thing (just ask mistformsquirrel about his way of doing it) and while I might not like the idea or support it I also can't deny it as impossible.

It might sound silly to us but really there is nothing in the fluff that doesn't prevent any number of the god-like characters or even some of the lesser ones, messing around in human issues, even one as big as the Emperor. The best we can do is make it canon in our own version of 40k and not try and force that version (which might be cleaner and make more sense to us) onto others who don't have the same view.

Soahc
24-11-2007, 23:54
Hail Horus !!!
For the warmaster!!!!
:evilgrin:

swordwind
25-11-2007, 00:03
So.. the most loyal of Primarchs is unable to tell the difference between his badly wounded father and the smouldering husk of his brother? Yes I'm sure...

MrBigMr
25-11-2007, 00:08
This (http://uk.games-workshop.com/spacemarines/initiation/3/) page (third paragraph in Recruitment and Initiation) explains that a space marine's geneseed only works with male hormones and that they "MUST be male".

That is your "no, never, not possible ever" statement about female space marines.
Well, you see, the problem here is that that statement is fluff, not the oppinion of GW. If GW, as in the developers and company, issue a statement that denies all those things from not being a part of the 40K universe, I'll take it more seriously. But so far it's just fluff, and we all know how canon that thing is...

And like said, that description leaves far more holes than one might think at first. Such as the fluff never saying 'gene-seed' it says zygote. But to tell the truth, no matter how many times I read all the stuff on the gene-seeds, zygotes and progenoids, I have a hard time understanding any of it.

Like I said, the fluff is merely a guideline. Even the very article you gave me, gives some pointers, such as faulty gene-seeds (which happens all the time). Then there's deliberate manipulation of the gene-seeds, and someone even pointed that the organs could be grown in male slave bodies and when fully grown, implanted into females. Isn't that how they do it with adults who want to be marines?

Not to forget all this 'male hormone' stuff. Now, I admit that I wasn't the best student in school, but what hormone does the male body have that the female body doesn't produce? Or tissue type? You can plant male organs into a woman, so what gives?

Hellebore
25-11-2007, 00:21
Well, you see, the problem here is that that statement is fluff, not the oppinion of GW. If GW, as in the developers and company, issue a statement that denies all those things from not being a part of the 40K universe, I'll take it more seriously. But so far it's just fluff, and we all know how canon that thing is...


Well if you can't take that as evidence then why are you discussing the 40k universe at all?

The staff at GW haven't said that the orks aren't smurfs, the Adeptus Mechanicus isn't housed in a tea cup orbiting an invisible pink unicorn, or that the Emperor isn't actually a can of spaghetti inhabited by the ghost of Abraham Lincoln.

If you will only support something with a definitive GW staff memo behind it, then there is absolutely no point in discussing this at all.

Hellebore

BrotherAdso
25-11-2007, 00:28
If you will only support something with a definitive GW staff memo behind it, then there is absolutely no point in discussing this at all.

Hellebore

Whoa there!

I agree with Mr.BigMr. However, you are misinterpreting the broadness of his statements. It's not that a piece of in-character "fluff" has all the credibility of an Oral Roberts sermon on charity, but that it has a lot less credibility than an out-of-character, third-person 'omniscent' statement.

As such, this particular conspiracy is totally far-fetched, but there's no definitive third-person construct that entirely invalidates it. This means it can be entertained and pondered, though not likely taken seriously.

-Adso

Hellebore
25-11-2007, 00:34
Whoa there!

I agree with Mr.BigMr. However, you are misinterpreting the broadness of his statements. It's not that a piece of in-character "fluff" has all the credibility of an Oral Roberts sermon on charity, but that it has a lot less credibility than an out-of-character, third-person 'omniscent' statement.

As such, this particular conspiracy is totally far-fetched, but there's no definitive third-person construct that entirely invalidates it. This means it can be entertained and pondered, though not likely taken seriously.

-Adso

Unfortunately you can't be selective in your logic. If you will only accept a concept in 40k as 'true' if a GW staff member representing the company has stated as much in a memo, then it must be applied to EVERYTHING. You can't just decide to apply it to some things and not others.

No GW staff member has sent out a memo saying that space marines cannot be female, nor have they said the emperor can't be a ghost infested spaghetti can.

This kind of argument is completely ridiculous and pointless.

There is evidence that marines can only be male. The statement MrBigMr made is a nonargument.

When has GW made a statement about ANYTHING in their gameworlds that WASN'T "ingame"?

It isn't an argument, it isn't a stance, it's nothing. It's like saying that an invisible pink unicorn exists because you can't disprove its existence.:rolleyes:

EDIT: By this logic NOTHING in 40k is true, real, or exists, because GW does not have a company mandate that explains the 'truth' of the 40k universe.

Hellebore

MrBigMr
25-11-2007, 00:56
Well, that got out of hand.

What I mean is, that GW themselves has said "go on, be creative, do your own stuff, it's a big universe." BL novels are stated to be as canon as codexes, in other words telling the story from the POV of the 40K universe, and not from ours. So if some Inquisitorial report says that the Eldar population is about 10 billion, it's just how they have concluded it, not the official fact that no one can dispute (like how 1+1=2).

Wasn't it said that the Starchild theory is just heretic propaganda now? By who? The Imperium? Certainly, but does it really mean the Emperor's spirit won't be reborn once the body is killed?

So, the 'male only' view of the marine is from the POV of the 40K universe not of ours. In that universe they generally believe that marines can only be male, but that doesn't mean it's true (hell, they believe pixies make their guns shoot). The same way we in the real world can say something with certainty (lets keep with the theme, "Oswald shot Kennedy."), doesn't mean it's 100% true (In reality it was the CIA with a magic bullet from the grassy gnoll.)

You see where I'm getting at?

Hellebore
25-11-2007, 01:08
Well, that got out of hand.

What I mean is, that GW themselves has said "go on, be creative, do your own stuff, it's a big universe." BL novels are stated to be as canon as codexes, in other words telling the story from the POV of the 40K universe, and not from ours. So if some Inquisitorial report says that the Eldar population is about 10 billion, it's just how they have concluded it, not the official fact that no one can dispute (like how 1+1=2).

Wasn't it said that the Starchild theory is just heretic propaganda now? By who? The Imperium? Certainly, but does it really mean the Emperor's spirit won't be reborn once the body is killed?

So, the 'male only' view of the marine is from the POV of the 40K universe not of ours. In that universe they generally believe that marines can only be male, but that doesn't mean it's true (hell, they believe pixies make their guns shoot). The same way we in the real world can say something with certainty (lets keep with the theme, "Oswald shot Kennedy."), doesn't mean it's 100% true (In reality it was the CIA with a magic bullet from the grassy gnoll.)

You see where I'm getting at?

I can see where you're going, but it produces the inescapable conclusion that nothing in 40k is true.

As much as I like creativity, that's just going a tad far. A universe has laws that help to define it. As I've said to people before, a setting is defined as much by its unique themes as by its LIMITATIONS.

I would very much dislike the idea that 40k does not have fundamental rules that govern it, and create a framework on which our creativity can be placed.

Is there anything in 40k you accept as immutable? And if so, why? What makes those particular themes/concepts immutable but not others?

And if nothing is immutable, what makes it such an interesting setting? If everything can change, and nothing is true, why even enjoy the world?

I can appreciate the 'sand pit' mentality where we get to play to our hearts content, but even in a sand pit there are rules. I LOVE inventing my own worlds, background, aliens etc. But I like to think they follow the 'rules' of 40k - if I create a marine chapter it has to be male because that is a fundamental part of what makes 40k, 40k.

Hellebore

BrotherAdso
25-11-2007, 01:23
I would very much dislike the idea that 40k does not have fundamental rules that govern it, and create a framework on which our creativity can be placed.

Is there anything in 40k you accept as immutable? And if so, why? What makes those particular themes/concepts immutable but not others?

Hellebore

No one is denying that, we just have differing guidelines about from what sources those 'immutable laws' may come, and how many there are.

I doubt, for example, that either MrBigMr or myself would seriously argue that the Emperor is a can of spaghetti. Why? Because we have third-person, omniscient-narrator fluff telling us a good deal about what the Emperor is like.

We might, however, argue about whether he is a super-duper-human, the reincarnated spirits of millions of shamans, or something else entirely. Why? Because even though there is published material about this topic, it is not presented as the infaliable word of an omniscient narrator.

Each piece of fiction, published inquisitorial report, and astropathic intercept in the Codices is open to a lot of interpretation, as are stories told from first and second person POV. Thus the valid ongiong debates over things like the Anzion theory of Ork mechanics and the origins of the Tau.

Within these kinds of debate, one must simply WEIGH the reliability and preciseness of the pieces of 'falliable fluff' on each side if you want to come to a conclusion about which interpretation is more likely.

In the case of this topic, we can conclude, from the many great sources referenced, that the guy on the throne being Horus is, in fact, pretty damned unlikely. But the question is not closed to debate the way a question like "Was Robute the Primarch of the White Scars??????!" is.

-Adso

Hellebore
25-11-2007, 01:37
No one is denying that, we just have differing guidelines about from what sources those 'immutable laws' may come, and how many there are.

I doubt, for example, that either MrBigMr or myself would seriously argue that the Emperor is a can of spaghetti. Why? Because we have third-person, omniscient-narrator fluff telling us a good deal about what the Emperor is like.

We might, however, argue about whether he is a super-duper-human, the reincarnated spirits of millions of shamans, or something else entirely. Why? Because even though there is published material about this topic, it is not presented as the infaliable word of an omniscient narrator.

Each piece of fiction, published inquisitorial report, and astropathic intercept in the Codices is open to a lot of interpretation, as are stories told from first and second person POV. Thus the valid ongiong debates over things like the Anzion theory of Ork mechanics and the origins of the Tau.

Within these kinds of debate, one must simply WEIGH the reliability and preciseness of the pieces of 'falliable fluff' on each side if you want to come to a conclusion about which interpretation is more likely.

In the case of this topic, we can conclude, from the many great sources referenced, that the guy on the throne being Horus is, in fact, pretty damned unlikely. But the question is not closed to debate the way a question like "Was Robute the Primarch of the White Scars??????!" is.

-Adso

How do you know? Who determines when something is '3rd person god perspective' and when it is 'ingame knowledge'?

GW certainly don't title their information that way, so all the above is based on personal opinion of what is and isn't 'true'.

I would much rather go with evidence over this, because evidence is quantifiable. You may attempt to argue that a piece of evidence is more or less true, but the '3rd person narrator' is a matter of interpretation, it isn't a clear cut delinneation.

For instance, the article I cited regarding the creation of space marines is not an 'inquisitorial report', or an AdMech paper, it is not written from anyones perspective.

Thus from that, I could argue that the article is entirely 3rd person narrator. There are even text boxes within that article that ARE 'ingame', with inquisitors talking to magos etc.

Hellebore

BrotherAdso
25-11-2007, 02:18
How do you know? Who determines when something is '3rd person god perspective' and when it is 'ingame knowledge'?
....
For instance, the article I cited regarding the creation of space marines is not an 'inquisitorial report', or an AdMech paper, it is not written from anyones perspective.

Thus from that, I could argue that the article is entirely 3rd person narrator.
Hellebore

Ah! You present a perfect example!

In that particular article, certain things are stated inescapably -- that Marines are made from Zygotes, Gene-Seed, and such-like, that these items are most effective when incorporated together, at a young age, in male patients. That gene-seed is derived from the Emperor and his Primarchs. That Marines monitor their gene-seed for corruption, but so do the Biologis, etc.

There are other things that leave a lot more latitude -- the portions of the article which are in-character, with Inquisitors pondering the nature of the Space Wolf divergences or the Black Rage.

The whole article isn't 'immutable law,' but parts of it certainly are. And as to what makes for 'immutable,' that is by no means up to personal opinion. There are recognizable structures of language (like verb conjugation, forms of speech, etc) which can assure us whether a piece comes from a neutral/universal PoV, or from a limited/character PoV. In your own example, isn't it pretty obvious which sections are the "voice of God" describing Marine biology, and which sections are "flava text," giving how people in the 40k universe feel/see/understand the subject?

-Adso

Hellebore
25-11-2007, 02:52
But now we get into analysing the structure of paragraphs to determine what is and isn't '3rd person narrator' - and we also make the assumption that GW ARE writing that way to begin with (and to use Mrbigmr's argument - GW haven't told us they EVER write in 3rd person narrator, the only thing they've ever said definitively is that it's all true, and all couched in the same ignorance and mysticism that the Imperium is drowned in).


As for the section in question:



These considerations mean that only a small proportion of people can become Space Marines. They must be male because zygotes are keyed to male hormones and tissue types, hence the need for tissue compatibility tests and psychological screening. If these tests prove successful, a candidate becomes a neophyte. With the completion of organ implantation and attendant chemical and hypnotic training, the subject becomes an initiate. An initiate receives training before joining the ranks as a full brother. A Marine usually joins the ranks between the ages of 16-18, but such are the hormonal changes induced by the process of creating a Space Marine that recruits are physically fully grown before then. Pressures during wartime may accelerate the process.


If that doesn't read like you describe then I don't know what does.

So using your own argument, GW really HAVE stated categorically that space marines may only be male.

Hellebore

BrotherAdso
25-11-2007, 03:09
(nods)

I actually agree. That piece of fluff was one of the nicest things that came out with 3ed, and it gave us a MUCH more complete idea about the nature and creation of Marines than anything previously, and it did indeed explicitly state, in a 'universal' way, that the Zygote organs are keyed to male characteristics. Hence, no Marines can be made who are female, at least, not using the Zygote method...and anyone who doesn't have all the extra organs in the right spots isn't technically a Marine.

As to what GW has told us...well, they're a gaming company, not a bunch of writers and background makers, sometimes to our detriment. However, there's really not much analysis to do, beyond the simple act of reading. The only way differentiating between fluff which is intended to inform the gaming audience by the writers and fluff which is written by character(s) X to character(s) Y would be difficult is if English is not your first language. In this case, ask someone for whom it is.

The fact is, certain elements of Fluff are INTENDED to be immutable -- that the Mechanicus have their home base on Mars, for example.

GW sets up these ground rules for us in omnipotent-narrator exposition, the same way a voiceover fills you in ("Last time on Star Trek...) at the start of a movie. Everything else is hazier -- for example, if a character is said movie believes that the world is different than the one laid out in the voiceover, then we doubt that character before we doubt the voiceover.

-Adso

Cry of the Wind
25-11-2007, 03:24
Interesting points here, though sad that the original topic was quashed by canon debate, as invariably will happen with this kinds of topic.

I like the idea's put forth by both Hellebore and BrotherAdso, I think you both feel the same way I do about the fluff and how to approach it. The biggest problem we will always encounter and why I really stop trying, is that there are enough little grey bits or sneaky ways around things that might break the spirit of the fluff with out breaking the rules (if you understand what I'm trying to say there...).

The idea that the Emperor is in fact an imposter has a number of huge problems to overcome. The method of trickery used to place Horus there, the way of maintaining or creating his psychic presence, and the way to keep that secret for thousands of years. I'm sure there are creatures capable of that but really at the end of the day why would they do it? Even if there was a good reason for them to do so, how would that be a good thing for GW to do? There are just so many things that make this unlikely that reasonable doubt has been presented to say this theory is false until more evidence comes forward suggesting it (of which I can predict with confidence will not). That won't stop anyone from trying to prove otherwise, though I assure you that you will not be able to convice me (or even put doubt in my mind) that this idea is not true.

Commander Dante
25-11-2007, 03:46
In some fluff i read it said that Sanguinus was psychicly bombarded by Horus while fighting him. That psychic bombardmant was so severe it scared his geneseed causing the gene curse that the Blood Angels suffer. So in conclusion it is possible that Horus gained some psychic powers from the chaos gods....throwing that out there.

Hive Mind 33
25-11-2007, 03:46
40K gives you plenty of space with everything. Even things like this. If people can make a million theories on who shot Kennedy and why, even when Oswald is the official shooter, then why is it so amazing some don't buy the official canon of 40K?

Don't forget MrBigMr conspiracy theorists ignore science, and things with facts

Shaper Shakra
25-11-2007, 06:55
Science? Facts? These are limitations of reality. I certainly don't think we should be bringing them into a philosophical debate over a made up universe.

I mean, you think the Emperor is Horus? Fine by me. Just don't tell me he is, because I think that's a load of rubbish and will blatantly refuse to believe no matter what anyone (including GW) says. It's kind of like ork guns shooting bullets, "Because they want them to."

The_Patriot
25-11-2007, 09:09
Don't forget MrBigMr conspiracy theorists ignore science, and things with facts

You mean a simple fact that there is no difference between male and female tissue on the cellular level? GW doesn't really know biology that well since male and females share the same tissues and hormones. The difference is in the amount of hormones a male and female have since both males and females produce both estrogen and testosterone. Females have a higher estrogen to testosterone level then males and males have a higher testosterone to estrogen level. If a woman is injected with a testosterone treatment during the growth of the implants there should be no difference in the result. The extent of the difference tissue wise is women have XX chromosones while men have XY chromosones usually. (I'm leaving out of this argument XX chromosone males.) Also chromosones only play a factor in sexual reproduction which space marines are unable to sexually reproduce according to the fluff. Thus, on the cellular level there is no difference between male and female tissues.

OT: It would be impossible for Horus to be on the throne since the throne taps into the psychic powers of the person sitting on it. It has an actual interface that connects to the subjects brain via cabling. Horus was not a psyker and putting a non-psyker on the throne would instantly shut down the Astronomicon and the psychic seals protecting the web gate in the throne room.

Sabbad
25-11-2007, 09:18
Horus was not a psyker

The charred corpse of Sanguinius says differently...

The_Patriot
25-11-2007, 09:21
The charred corpse of Sanguinius says differently...

Horus Heresy books say otherwise. He even admits to not being a psyker.

MrBigMr
25-11-2007, 10:21
I can see where you're going, but it produces the inescapable conclusion that nothing in 40k is true.

As much as I like creativity, that's just going a tad far. A universe has laws that help to define it. As I've said to people before, a setting is defined as much by its unique themes as by its LIMITATIONS.
I think it's more of a 'feel' than 'the truth'. I read 40K novels and other fluff for the 'feel', than the actual stories.


I would very much dislike the idea that 40k does not have fundamental rules that govern it, and create a framework on which our creativity can be placed.
What rules? There's a universal frame work, but taken the timeline and ever changing fluff, 'rules' are something that depend only on what is the latest fluff. When the next codex, novel or WD comes out, the fluff changes again.

So, following the 'rules' of 40K is pretty much as easy as getting inside a woman's head. That is why it's the framework rather than the actual rules I follow.

For example, all fluff I've read before the new Chaos codex said that Khorne hates Slaanesh and Tzeentch hates Nurgle, and that they wouldn't work together. Yet in the new codex you get to field all those together without any problem. Even the fluff seems to allow it. If I had done this in the old codex or something, people would all "nah, not possible" etc.

Hell, in the old times (the long long ago), there were female marines.


Is there anything in 40k you accept as immutable? And if so, why? What makes those particular themes/concepts immutable but not others?
Well, the general concept. A universe where various fantasy based scifi races take on each other, great wars, etc. The rest is filling that I do enjoy, but it's not absolute, as it changes from time to time.


And if nothing is immutable, what makes it such an interesting setting? If everything can change, and nothing is true, why even enjoy the world?
Now we're going to dangerous grounds. Same thing would apply to the real world as well. How can we be sure of anything on some philosophical level? How often do you not follow the law/rules? The trick is to just find a place that you feel comfortable in.

Even with non-40K themed armies, I try to place them into the 40K universe in a way or another with fluff and looks.


I can appreciate the 'sand pit' mentality where we get to play to our hearts content, but even in a sand pit there are rules.
Yeah, keep the sand inside the sides. I don't remember anyone saying "You can't make a sand castle with no gates. It's not how castles roll."


I LOVE inventing my own worlds, background, aliens etc. But I like to think they follow the 'rules' of 40k - if I create a marine chapter it has to be male because that is a fundamental part of what makes 40k, 40k.
But that's how you see it. YOU prefer male marines over anything else, but that doesn't mean someone can't make them. The same way someone might be a complete homophobe, yet he can't deny some other dude to have sex with men.


I doubt, for example, that either MrBigMr or myself would seriously argue that the Emperor is a can of spaghetti.
A can of spagherri, eh...?


GW certainly don't title their information that way, so all the above is based on personal opinion of what is and isn't 'true'.
It all comes down to 'reasonable doubt'. Do I have a reason to doubt the Emperor is a can of spaghetti? No, I don't. Do I have reason to doubt he will turn into a starchild once dead? Yes, I believe so.

40K is a court of law, fluff is the evidence, writers the layers and we, the players, the jury. Depending on how strong the evidence and how well the layers are able to present it, the less reason there is for doubt. Even if the evidence itself is strong, the presentation might be lacking. And at the same time a strong, stern speech for something might not be air tight without enough proof.

This is the case with female marines.
Prosecution: "Your honor, members of the jury. Here, in my hand I have a clear testimony that clearly states 'members of the adeptus astartes must be male, because the gene-seeds are homed in on male hormones.'"
Defense: "Objection, your honor. Defense has several top ranking biologists ready to testify that the female body also holds these so called 'male hormones'. And there are also tons of evidence from the same source as the document in the prosecutor's hand, that gene-seeds are known to malfunction and work against their original purpose. Not to forget all the evidence on gene-seed experimentation."


Horus Heresy books say otherwise. He even admits to not being a psyker.
What about a sorcerer?

The_Patriot
25-11-2007, 10:32
What about a sorcerer?

Horus admits that Magnus is the greatest of the primarchs when it comes to psychic/sorcerous ability. Part of that statement is that he is not even close to being psychic. On the official scale I'd say Horus ranks as an Pi which not psychic at all.

Mahwell Skel
25-11-2007, 10:44
OT: In a sense perhaps the original poster is right. All the primarchs were created from the emperor himself and take their traits from him, even the evil chaotic tainted ones. Part of Horus' being and soul is therefore held in the golden throne deep down.

Now IIRC rogue trader fluff says that the emperor is sustained on the throne by the daily sacrifice of hundreds of juvinile psykers feeding the astronomican and sustaining his "immortal" being and presence. Yay the "good" guys!:skull:

Not sure about the switcheroo theory but in effect Horus is there perhaps influencing decisions. After all the emperor was slow to react to the Heresy in the first place so why was that not the dark part of him manipulating him?

TheHaunted
28-11-2007, 17:18
Emperor purify the souls of these heretics............. and protect the souls of your loyal subjects......

HorgothTheGreat
30-11-2007, 20:48
If this was the case, and Abbaddon knew about it, what would be the point in the Chaos Legions fighting the Imperium? If the Emperor was Horus, I believe he would have destoryed the followers of the Emperor already and Chaos would over run everything.

MrBigMr
30-11-2007, 21:29
If this was the case, and Abbaddon knew about it, what would be the point in the Chaos Legions fighting the Imperium? If the Emperor was Horus, I believe he would have destoryed the followers of the Emperor already and Chaos would over run everything.
1. Feed the Gods with emotion through constant war.
2. Keep the apes in line. When they think they have a clear enemy, the legions won't start fighting each other over trivial issues.
3. Act as a buffer against various enemies that would attack Chaos instead of the Imperium.
4. Subjucate the people. This was actually in one novel I read. In in there had been a large conflict between environmentalists and industrials. The environmentalist had won and everyone lived happily when they were in a cleaner world and all that. But in reality the industrials had won, then adopted the ideals of their enemies and rewriten history. Thus they can continue like always, but everyone is happy.
5. Some dark motive we mortals cannot understand.


But, if we assume the Emperor is on the throne, what would happen if Horus or Abaddon would sit on it? Would the guiding light of the Emperor turn into a dark beacon, drawing daemons and other nasty things, ripping a new Eye into the fabric of space?