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redbaron998
24-11-2007, 21:19
I am going for a 2k Magic Heavy Empire, I have played Fantasy a couple times and have about half the Army Books and the BRB so I have a pretty firm grasp of the rules, still I am not well versed in list builing yet so need some help.

Wizard Lord LvL 4 with Armour of Tarnus, Luckstone, VHS on Barbed Warhorse
321

Battle Wizard LvL 2 with Rod of Power
130

Battle Wizard LvL 2 with Doomfire Ring
130

BSB with Full AoMI and Ring of Volans
120

24 Swordsmen with FC with 6 Hand gunners detachment and 10 Halberdiers
169+48+50

24 Swordsmen with FC with 6 Hand gunners detachment and 10 Halberdiers
169+48+50

5 Knights
115

24 Great Swords with FC with 2x 8 Halberdiers detachment
270+80

Great Cannon
100

Great Cannon
100

5 Pistoliers with Musician
97

1997

Plan to have a Swordmen unit on each flank with one of the LvL 2 Wizards. Then have the GS with the BSB in the center

Fire and Metal are my two favorite Lores and will probably have the battle wizards as Fire and the Lord as Metal.

Makarion
24-11-2007, 23:16
Balthasar Gelt isn't bad, but that only means he's almost worth it.

As to adding things.

First, you're going to be an army that basically doesn't want the melee, so you need march blocking. I'd suggest a detachment or two of skirmishing archers. Send them out ahead of your battle line and have them snipe at enemy fast cav, and generally be a cheap roadblock.
You could add some huntsmen, but they aren't necessarily better at it.
Likewise, add a unit of pistoliers to harass your opponent's flanks and hinder his or her approach.

Personally, I am not particularly fond of the mortar, but I'm a control freak, so if you're happy with the aiming issues, go for it.

The glaringly lacking army element is the hevay cavalry. 5 vanilla knights with a champion (and perhaps a musician) are a threat to your opponent's smaller units, or any of his or her units from the flank. Well worth it for an effective sacrificial unit.


As to your characters, I'd suggest mounting your BSB and putting him in a spearmen unit or the like. He really doesn't need a magical banner, so you can give him the Armour of Meteoric Iron instead of a mount, if you wish. Consider giving the BSB the Doomfire Ring if you don't use the AoMI.

Give one of the wizards the Rod of Power - it's easily worth it's point in any army with at least 4 levels of magic. It also negates the use of a pair of dispel scrolls - one of those is enough, given that you already have a nice pile of dispel dice.

I'd personally mount the wizards so they can run out of the unit and still be viable if you're about to get swamped into a grubby melee - you don't want some random foot slogger with a great weapon to aim attacks at your unarmoured characters.

Last but not least, diversify your magic. Metal and Fire are fine lores, but they are very similar - and if your opponent has protection from flaming attacks, you're hosed. Consider adding Death (if you prefer pure destructive magic) or Light (which has a good mix of attack spells and utility spells).


Hope that it helps - good luck!

redbaron998
25-11-2007, 14:38
The potential for the Motar against all the elfs these days though is really hard for me to pass up....still ill think about it

Perhaps having one of my LvL2s have Lore of Heavens?

brambleten
25-11-2007, 14:42
would some pistoliers and a HBVG be worth putting in for some fire support? you could drop a mage for a warrior priest and put some flagelents in to beef up the core. or put in some knights and some militia or something
i think its a strong starting list, and that it has potential

Makarion
25-11-2007, 19:37
First, you've got too many points of magic gear on the BSB -50 is your cap.

Second, I'd get rid of the champion in the pistoliers - your role is to harass, not kill, and he's *really* not worth it for just 1 more BS.

Third, I'd use slightly smaller handgunner detachments - I generally stick to 6 at the most, since larger detachments means your blocks get spread out badly. For the surplus handgunners into a seperate unit for fire support from behind, on a hill if possible.

Last but not least, your wizard lord badly needs a ward save - he's too many points to risk fielding without.


Otherwise, an improvment on your prior list.

redbaron998
25-11-2007, 19:53
First, you've got too many points of magic gear on the BSB -50 is your cap.

Last but not least, your wizard lord badly needs a ward save - he's too many points to risk fielding without.

.



Ok I will ditch the Outrider, What would you suggest I do with the BSB, as those at Warhammer-Empire cant say enough about the Doomfire Ring, Should I keep him having the ring and ditch his armour and sword and give him Full plate and a Enchanted Shield? Or just give the ring to one of my mages?

Or should I ditch the ring and 5 greatswords and get a 10 man unit of Handgunners to put on a hill?

Also what Item would you suggest I give my Lord for ward save?

Makarion
25-11-2007, 19:59
He cannot have the enchanted shield, since he cannot have a normal shield. I'd probably give him full plate, a barded horse, and the ring.

As for the ward save, the holy relic is a solid choice.

redbaron998
25-11-2007, 20:19
(I just put the most up to date list on the OP for simplicity)

Ok I made up the BSB legally and gave the Lord a Relic, I got about 100 points to spend? I was thinking about that ranged unit you suggested. Should I go for more Handgunners, or Xbow men?

Also should I give the BSB a magic weapon to help him out?

Also how do you think I should do my Lores? I was thinking Metal on the Lord (cause the Spirit of the Forge just ripps H. Calvary.)

Then have 1 LvL 2 have Fire (cause lets face it, fire is cool) and the other probably have Heavens (some of his spells can take on stuff that against things immune to flaming or benefit the army. Since the box comes in pair I would probably build my odd one out as a Light mage to exchange for the Heavens against Undead.

redbaron998
27-11-2007, 15:52
I made another slight change. Right now I plan to go semi-castle in my formation, by putting the cannons and Xbowmen detachment on a hill (if there is one) with the GS in front and the swordsmen protecting the flanks. (Knights and Pistollers out marchblooking and harrasing)

I got a decent amount of points left, I would think pistollers but am out of special slots, I could go for a Hellstrom or another units of knights.

If I went knights would it be better to have another unit of 5 or to make my current unit double the size?

der_lex
27-11-2007, 20:04
A small note on your question in the magic 101 thread on what lores to use:

One good thing to look at are the casting values of the spells in the lists. You want your L2's to be able to actually get some useful spells off, and that will become very difficult for them if they have to roll 9+ or higher to get spells cast.

You're pretty much sold on Fire and Metal, it seems. Of those two, I think Metal is better given to a L2, considering that all but the last spell in the list have low casting values. You could always give your wizard as power stone so he can use Spirit of the Forge, should you roll it. Another reason not to make Metal your 'Lord' lore, is that its usefulness depends on what army you're facing. If your opponent's army has only lightly armoured troops and no war machines to speak of, the majority of the spells are rather weak.

Fire is a good shooty lore, and can go either way. The last two spells on the list are somewhat harder to cast for L2's, but they can handle the rest of the spells without any trouble. Conflagration and Wall of fire are good enough to consider this for your lord, though...but don't think that Flaming Sword makes him a decent melee combatant in any way. He'll still go down really quickly.

I'm not too fond of Heavens myself. It's an ok lore, but I don't think it's your best choice in an Empire army. You already have two 'shooty' lores, you might want to consider giving your third wizard some utility spells instead. I'd personally go for either Light (it really helps you deal with psychology issues and your low WS if you roll the right spells, and still packs a nice punch if you don't...that and its casting values are really low) or Shadow (the top three spells are fantastic...but the high casting values make it a bit of a 'Lord lore').

happy_doctor
28-11-2007, 09:34
Well, der_lex pretty much covered your question, just some bits from me:

-Characters: Far too many dispel scrolls! You have 6 dispel dice and 2 dispel scrolls..this is called overkill in my book! I'd drop at least one of them, and give the wizard something useful, such as a ring of corin (could be useful, could be crap, depending on the spell you roll) or a power stone (see above).In other words, if my lizardmen can handle a 16-pd Tzeentch army with 3 dispel dice and a scroll, so can your empire with double the dice! :D

-use the leftover points to bump your detachments a bit.. 6-man detachments can't counter-charge effectively, as you'll be soon below US5.. (not to mention that an arrow or two will renedr the m completely ineffective. make them 9 or 10 and you're good!

-Magic: Try to make the most out of your level 4 wizard. To do so, you'll have to avoid these miscasts! The luckstone is the perfect tool for this, as it ensures that you'll avoid the first miscast of the game with your lvl 4! As for the lores, i'd say go with Fire or Shadows for yourlord, followed by lore of life for a lvl2 (gives you the opportunity to stall enemy units with mistress of the marsh) and lore of metal/death for your other lvl2. Steer clear from the heavens lore, it's a supportive lore, not a destructive one(comet of cassandora is far too unpredictable for you to rely on). Bear in mind that depending on the situation, you can pick the appropriate lore. Vs brettonians or dwarves,lore of metal would be priceless, for example ;)

Hope i helped,
Happy_doctor

redbaron998
28-11-2007, 22:26
Another update, some changes due to some advice on Warseer as well. Both forums keep praising the Luckstone so I threw that in. Also the 6 man detachments seemed to prone to being rendered ineffective from shooting, so I made them larger.

I also spread some of my Magic Items around, Gave the Rod to a LvL 2 and another one the Doomfire, This cost me the twodispel scrolls but with still 6 DD I should be fine.

Also I put the VHS on the Wizard Lord, He will probably start in the GS with the BsB. If a challange goes out the Wizard Lord can take it, hopefully he will have the Sword of Ruin as well...with these two things he should do well in the challange...am still unsure if I this will be cost effective.

I really wanted the BSB on foot, with the RoV instead of Doomfire I can do this with AoMI.