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catbarf
25-11-2007, 01:56
So, I've got an idea. There are quite a few of us on the forums who are good with numbers, and could use a set of data for the various options in the game. So, what if we were to produce a set of statistics for various situations in the game, both in-battle and for list deisgn? I'll start it off.

Disclaimer: This guide does not guarantee that you will roll what is listed. This is an aid, by giving you the number that the rolls tend towards. If you're here to give the old 'you might roll something different' line, just stop now.

Imperial Guard Anti-Vehicle (excluding Ordnance) Weaponry, average amount of damage per weapon firing:

Against AV10 Vehicles, firing with BS3
Lascannon- .08 glances, .42 penetrates
Autocannon- .17 glances, .5 penetrates
Missile Launcher (Krak)- .08 glances, .33 penetrates
Multilaser- .25 glances, .5 penetrates
Heavy Bolter- .25 glances, .25 penetrates
Best chance of destroying enemy vehicle: Multilaser
Best chance of inflicting damage: Multilaser

Against AV11 Vehicles, firing with BS3
Lascannon- .08 glances, .33 penetrates
Autocannon- .17 glances, .33 penetrates
Missile Launcher (Krak)- .08 glances, .25 penetrates
Multilaser- .25 glances, .25 penetrates
Heavy Bolter- .25 glances
Best chance of destroying enemy vehicle: Autocannon
Best chance of inflicting damage: Multilaser/Autocannon

Against AV12 Vehicles, firing with BS3
Lascannon- .08 glances, .25 penetrates
Autocannon- .17 glances, .17 penetrates
Missile Launcher (Krak)- .08 glances, .17 penetrates
Multilaser- .25 glances
Best chance of destroying enemy vehicle: Lascannon
Best chance of inflicting damage: Lascannon

Against AV13 Vehicles, firing with BS3
Lascannon- .08 glances, .17 penetrates
Autocannon- .17 glances
Missile Launcher (Krak)- .08 glances, .08 penetrates
Best chance of destroying enemy vehicle: Lascannon
Best chance of inflicting damage: Lascannon

Against AV14 Vehicles, firing with BS3
Lascannon- .08 glances, .08 penetrates
Missile Launcher (Krak)- .08 glances
Best chance of destroying enemy vehicle: Lascannon
Best chance of inflicting damage: Lascannon

Overall conclusion: Use Multilasers on AV10, Autocannons on AV10/11, Lascannons for anything bigger, and (if you've got em) use the Missiles on whatever happens a good target.

Just my contribution. Feel free to add whatever you like- it doesn't matter how general or specific, it could be the average damage a squad of Marines does on the charge or just how many Ogryns you need to kill that pesky group of Genestealers- as long as the math is correct, you're not hurting anyone with rrelatively obscure possibilities. This could be useful in-game, help for designing an army list, or just be a general reference for the sort of effectiveness questions that pop up from time to time.

And please, no arguing over the validity of Mathhammer. If you don't like it, you don't need to use it. Endless argument only makes it harder to find the useful content.

Bloodknight
25-11-2007, 02:07
Good idea. How do the priorities change if the opponent's vehicle can for some reason only be glanced?

RavenMorpheus
25-11-2007, 02:41
Overall conclusion: Use Multilasers on AV10, Autocannons on AV10/11, Lascannons for anything bigger, and (if you've got em) use the Missiles on whatever happens a good target.

Erm yeah ok, a reasonable concept, but I could have worked out the overall conclusion without the figures tbh, it's not rocket science.

catbarf
25-11-2007, 02:47
Of course. But the numbers always help.


Good idea. How do the priorities change if the opponent's vehicle can for some reason only be glanced?

Well, just add up the average numbers of penetrates to the number of glances. You can do that yourself, or I'll do it when I'm feeling less tired :p

catbarf
25-11-2007, 14:20
Good idea. How do the priorities change if the opponent's vehicle can for some reason only be glanced?

Mkay, so now that I'm not quite so tired, I'll work this out:

Imperial Guard Anti-Vehicle (excluding Ordnance) Weaponry, average amount of damage per weapon firing when only glances can be achieved:

Against AV10 Vehicles, firing with BS3
Lascannon- .5 glances
Autocannon- .67 glances
Missile Launcher (Krak)- .42 glances
Multilaser- .75 glances
Heavy Bolter- .5 glances
Best chance of destroying enemy vehicle/inflicting damage: Multilaser

Against AV11 Vehicles, firing with BS3
Lascannon- .42 glances
Autocannon- .5 glances
Missile Launcher (Krak)- .33 glances
Multilaser- .5 glances
Heavy Bolter- .25 glances
Best chance of destroying enemy vehicle/inflicting damage: Autocannon/Multilaser

Against AV12 Vehicles, firing with BS3
Lascannon- .33 glances
Autocannon- .33 glances
Missile Launcher (Krak)- .25 glances
Multilaser- .25 glances
Best chance of destroying enemy vehicle/inflicting damage: Lascannon/Autocannon

Against AV13 Vehicles, firing with BS3
Lascannon- .25 glances
Autocannon- .17 glances
Missile Launcher (Krak)- .17 glances
Best chance of destroying enemy vehicle/inflicting damage: Lascannon

Against AV14 Vehicles, firing with BS3
Lascannon- .17 glances
Missile Launcher (Krak)- .08 glances
Best chance of destroying enemy vehicle/inflicting damage: Lascannon

Overall conclusion: Use Multilasers on AV10/11, Autocannons on AV11/12, Lascannons for anything bigger, and (if you've got em) use the Missiles on whatever happens a good target.

Mr Zephy
25-11-2007, 16:54
Could there perhaps be a glances-per-point cost for heavy weapons teams?

catbarf
25-11-2007, 18:33
Well, you've got to factor in the cost of the men. Do you want me to include that, or just the guns themselves?

And please, if you've got ANYTHING to add, go right ahead.

Calistarius
25-11-2007, 18:39
I, for one, welcome the addition of more math-hammer noise to distract my opponents from how the game actually works. Keep up the good work, lads! ;)

catbarf
25-11-2007, 19:21
...And there's already 'Banned' under his name. Wow, that was fast.

So, Mr. Zephy, do you want me to factor in the cost of the crew, just the man firing it, or just the gun itself? All three are equally valid, but will give significantly different results.

Mr Zephy
25-11-2007, 19:59
Hmm... I think that the add-on costs for infantry heavy weapons is the most widely applicable.

AgeOfEgos
25-11-2007, 20:45
This is a good idea.

I would try to coin something catchy to what you are getting at so to speak. When I was in HS as an example, I helped my computer instructor write a Basketball stats program that took input from various stats (Rebounds, pts, assists) then weighted them against their position (IE Rebounds for the center were weighted more than a point guard). After all these variables were added in it would spit out a OCON or Overall Contribution.

If you were to do this, I would suggest two things;

Getting a site that displays the number easily and in a eye friendly manner.

Getting a firm idea of the variables you will be adding in before doing any of the math to prevent rework. You could do 3 categories to compare against, like armour, MEQ and GEQ. So...

Cost of infantry unit
Ability vs MEQ
Ability vs GEQ
Availability (IE Elite, troop, easy to fit into FOC)
etc etc

Once you work out all the variables needed...then you simply need to decide on a formula of how you would weight each category. Then you could come to a OCON number....which might be helpful for new players.

A great deal of this would be common sense (Vets specifically), as a group of AP3 TSons would obvious be great against MEQ......HOWEVER what would be interesting is how cost efficient they are as an all comer. I'm sure the vets wouldn't "know" this but maybe just "guess" they are. Could be some shocks too in terms of cost efficient analysis.

Regardless, I would be willing to provide feedback/crunch numbers.

catbarf
25-11-2007, 22:17
Very good idea! But as I said, I'm not doing everything. If you've got a contribution, just post it!

Zephy, what I meant was do you want me to factor in the cost of the man carrying the gun, both men in the team, or just the gun itself?

Cry of the Wind
25-11-2007, 22:40
I think you need a disclaimer for this thread. Warning, the data found in here will not guarantee you rolling 0.8 marine/land raider/whatever kills per turn with X gun. What this is rather, is a compilation of data that will show you the statistical chances of certain events happening. Your in game experience may vary but this has nothing to do with math being wrong but rather the result of random rolling.

For example, while I may never roll a 4+ in a game when firing a Railgun at a Land Raider it does not mean that the math is wrong and that a Railgun is not a good weapon to shoot with. It just means that in this series of random rolls I didn't get the statistical average, this is an example of a deviation, not that math is broken.

All this math is useful for is a tool when building your army list and determining the best weapons to equip a unit with for a given task, as well as predicting the chances of inflicting damage with certain weapons when working out your target selection. Please consider that when responding to this thread.

catbarf, I hope that this helps people understand what you're doing and how it should be used. I find many people don't get what this is all about and don't understand the applications of this data. Hopefully my explanation will educate them (assuming my English isnít as poor as my math...). Sorry I can't add anything else as my math skills are on the poor side...

themandudeperson
25-11-2007, 22:48
what about weapons used by units with the tank hunter skill?

catbarf
25-11-2007, 23:12
Disclaimer added. themandude, I'll have to remember exactly what that does first :D

Cornelius
25-11-2007, 23:16
Yeah, and you have to factor in what brand of dice you are rolling. Chessex, GW, or casino dice.

catbarf
25-11-2007, 23:21
I'm going to assume that each side has the same chance of rolling a given number, since some of us use things like Invisible Castle for dice.

Cornelius
25-11-2007, 23:25
Invisible Castle?

catbarf
25-11-2007, 23:44
http://invisiblecastle.com/

catbarf
26-11-2007, 11:12
So, Zephy, which do you want me to work on?

Cornelius
26-11-2007, 11:47
http://invisiblecastle.com/

You are using that site in-game?

catbarf
26-11-2007, 12:36
You are using that site in-game?

When a laptop is available, why not?

Truth be told, we started using it extensively with D&D, but now we also use it for normal games.

Mr Zephy
26-11-2007, 21:59
Zephy, what I meant was do you want me to factor in the cost of the man carrying the gun, both men in the team, or just the gun itself?

Well, it's a choice between having different guns and not weather to have one or not really for me, so add-on cost. (ie. the +20 pts for ...)