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View Full Version : How to fix DE Scourges..



themandudeperson
25-11-2007, 17:27
With rumors abuzz that Dark Eldar's new codex is coming out sometime the middle to end of '08, I've been thinking: How could GW go about making Scourges a useful unit?
Personally I think if they were made a fast attack choice instead, you would see them alot more often. The problem they have now is that they have to compete with the awesome Ravager as a ranged support unit, which is more mobile, can move and fire it's heavy weapons, has better heavy weapons and is a cheaper unit. If they were a fast attack choice, and the heavy weapon choices were slightly cheaper or different, I believe people might regard them as much less of a joke as they do now.
Anyone have any thoughts on the matter?

Bloodknight
25-11-2007, 17:51
I think the real problem of the scourges is the prohibitive cost combined with low survivability. A unit of 10 scourges with 4 splinter cannons is 240 points and will due to short range, low T and bad saves never get that back in.

I think when the DE were done the dev team overestimated the usefulness of jump troops and overpriced them. In later codices a Jump trooper costs roughly 1.5 times the points of the basic footslogger in that army. Scourges are twice the cost of a warrior. The weapons are IMO priced correctly.

Calistarius
25-11-2007, 18:07
Maybe give them the option of having shredders or blasters? I rather like Scourges, but I run them strictly as splinter-cannon toting bastiches backed up by a terrorfex grenade from the Sybarite ("And stay down....!").

themandudeperson
25-11-2007, 18:09
you're right on with them being frail. But then again, the whole DE army is frail.. But when you look at the heavy weapon choices and compare them to other armies, like the ever popular space marines, devastators can field 4 missile launchers for the same cost as it costs for scourges taking 4 splinter cannons. And splinter cannons amount to little more than a storm bolter on crack. Against GEQ, it could rock out, but against MEQ it's a waste of points.
Also, in comparison to other heavy weapons teams in other armies, they don't have near the choices. Guard get lascannons, heavy bolters, autocannons and missile launchers. Space Marines get all those, in addition to multi-meltas and plasma cannons. Tau Broadsides have railguns, smart missile systems and plasma guns. Dark Eldar get dark lances and splinter cannons. The addition of a man-portable disentigrator would make Scourges a very nasty unit. Of course, the point cost would have to reflect that..
Another option is they could allow Scourges to take up to 4 special weapons instead along with making them a fast attack choice. That would allow them to stay mobile, which is one of the dark eldar's primary tactics..

Calistarius
25-11-2007, 18:14
And splinter cannons amount to little more than a storm bolter on crack. Or two stormbolters, whichever...

themandudeperson
25-11-2007, 18:23
eh, yeah.. that's what I meant.

Lord_Squinty
25-11-2007, 18:24
The most annoying thing about scourges is its basicly splinter cannons or nothing.
Whats the point of giving heavy weapons to a mobile jump pack equipped troop?
They've come to be known as 'pointless scourges' in our store.
Giving them the option of blasters instead of lances would make them a lot better.

Bloodknight
25-11-2007, 18:29
Well, scourges get Dark Lances for the price of Guard lascannons; Space Marines Devastators pay more for theirs; I think that is fair.

It is the inherent cost of the guy carrying them which makes them worthless (I hope you agree that 2 DL for 20 points is underpriced on the warriors). That and LD8 which makes them fail every third target priority test.

Calistarius
25-11-2007, 18:41
eh, yeah.. that's what I meant. At least we've established a very important result in math-hammer: 'on crack'x = 2x. Given that a stormbolter on crack is worth two stormbolters, I posit the hypothetical existence of a super-crack, a methamphetamine if you will, that triples the effectiveness of a weapon. ;)

Snipafist
25-11-2007, 18:45
I think a cheaper squad with access to splinter cannons, blasters (!), and shredders would be ideal. The dark lance option makes no sense whatsoever. It's like saddling a jeep with a train-mounted cannon.

themandudeperson
25-11-2007, 20:04
I think a cheaper squad with access to splinter cannons, blasters (!), and shredders would be ideal. The dark lance option makes no sense whatsoever. It's like saddling a jeep with a train-mounted cannon.

Didn't they do something like that in WWII? it wasn't a train-mounted cannon or a jeep. But it was a light vehicle with a large anti-tank gun on it. It offered like 0 protection to the driver, but allowed him with enough mobility and a low enough profile to park it in the bushes and ambush a tank then ride out before TSHTF. I don't see why a heavy weapons squad couldn't carry a man-portable anti-tank weapon.. Regular DE warriors can carry them.

RampagingRavener
25-11-2007, 20:08
Anyone have any thoughts on the matter?

Change them to Jet Packs (a la Tau Battlesuits) instead of Jump Packs and let them move-and-fire. If need be, knock 12" off the range of their guns to compensate. And bingo, you've got a fast, but horrendously fragile if they do get caught, hit and run squad able to target Tanks or Infantry depending on their equippment.

mistformsquirrel
25-11-2007, 21:04
The most annoying thing about scourges is its basicly splinter cannons or nothing.
Whats the point of giving heavy weapons to a mobile jump pack equipped troop?
They've come to be known as 'pointless scourges' in our store.
Giving them the option of blasters instead of lances would make them a lot better.

/agree completely

kikkoman
25-11-2007, 21:05
give them all soulseeker ammo for the splintercannons

the ork codex seems a good measure of how units get fixed and standardized, specialized.

Ouroboros
25-11-2007, 21:36
I'd say move and fire with the heavy weapons at the current points cost would probably be the easiest way to fix them. That would then let you actually cross shop them with a Ravager for the heavy support slot. As it stands right now they're completely infearior to the Ravager in performance, and they cost a lot more points on top of it.

themandudeperson
25-11-2007, 21:38
I'd say move and fire with the heavy weapons at the current points cost would probably be the easiest way to fix them. That would then let you actually cross shop them with a Ravager for the heavy support slot. As it stands right now they're completely infearior to the Ravager in performance, and they cost a lot more points on top of it.

That could work well too.

cuda1179
25-11-2007, 22:06
Changing the Dark lance to an assault weapon would be the best option. Then no one would have to scrap models. Also adding in the option of blasters, shredders, and disintigrators would be nice.

themandudeperson
25-11-2007, 22:21
dude.. I would not want to see dark eldar warriors running around and shooting me with their dark lances. People already try to spam the 10 warriors+2 dark lances troop choice as it is.. The only good thing keeping that from being cheesed to the 10th power is their status as heavy weapons.

Kasonic
25-11-2007, 22:23
toxic_wisdom had the right idea.

Take their Dark Lance option away, give them Disintegrators, make the "rapid" mode Assault instead of Heavy, and give them Jet Packs.

Askari
25-11-2007, 22:26
dude.. I would not want to see dark eldar warriors running around and shooting me with their dark lances. People already try to spam the 10 warriors+2 dark lances troop choice as it is.. The only good thing keeping that from being cheesed to the 10th power is their status as heavy weapons.

How would anyone else like it if Devastator Marines cost 30pts each and had Jump Packs as standard.

No-one wants Heavy-weapon-toting Jump Infantry

Clockwork-Knight
25-11-2007, 22:26
Scourges however are... were meant to shoot you up with dark lances. It just happens that the combination of heavy weapons and jump modules on frail troops is one made of pure idiocy that might only have worked in the brain of somebody really drunk that night before writing down the rules.

But then again, the Dark Eldar codex was always really stupid in some choices since its inception (oh boy, soul-seeker ammo for one guy using splinter rifles or a splinter pistol, sure is good, right?)

themandudeperson
25-11-2007, 22:39
How would anyone else like it if Devastator Marines cost 30pts each and had Jump Packs as standard.

No-one wants Heavy-weapon-toting Jump Infantry

the big difference is most Space Marines are toughness 4 with a 3+ save and most Dark Eldar are toughness 3 with a 5+ save. Most armies have to use a special or heavy weapon just to have a decent chance of killing a marine, even other space marines.. Meanwhile even a bolt pistol stands a solid chance to drop a dark eldar as easy as a splinter cannon can bring down a marine..

themandudeperson
25-11-2007, 22:41
toxic_wisdom had the right idea.

Take their Dark Lance option away, give them Disintegrators, make the "rapid" mode Assault instead of Heavy, and give them Jet Packs.

I think they should stay jump infantry, but I like the idea of a strength 4 ap 3 assault or strength 7 ap 2 heavy 1, blast weapon for them.. Jet packs I see as mostly a Tau thing personally..

chivalrous
25-11-2007, 22:59
How would anyone else like it if Devastator Marines cost 30pts each and had Jump Packs as standard.

No-one wants Heavy-weapon-toting Jump Infantry


you're right on with them being frail. But then again, the whole DE army is frail.. But when you look at the heavy weapon choices and compare them to other armies, like the ever popular space marines, devastators can field 4 missile launchers for the same cost as it costs for scourges taking 4 splinter cannons. And splinter cannons amount to little more than a storm bolter on crack. Against GEQ, it could rock out, but against MEQ it's a waste of points.
Also, in comparison to other heavy weapons teams in other armies, they don't have near the choices. Guard get lascannons, heavy bolters, autocannons and missile launchers. Space Marines get all those, in addition to multi-meltas and plasma cannons. Tau Broadsides have railguns, smart missile systems and plasma guns. Dark Eldar get dark lances and splinter cannons. The addition of a man-portable disentigrator would make Scourges a very nasty unit. Of course, the point cost would have to reflect that..
Another option is they could allow Scourges to take up to 4 special weapons instead along with making them a fast attack choice. That would allow them to stay mobile, which is one of the dark eldar's primary tactics..

Looking at the comparisons to Devastators and Havoks, I can't help but agree to a certain extent, that Jump packs do add a certain advantage.
However look at the range of Both the Splinter Cannon and Dark Lance. Both are 24" wheras in the Marine arsenal (with the exception of the Multi-Melta) there's nothing with a range lower than 36", that 12" makes a lot of difference.
You can say the jump moves adds 12" to the range, but of course you can't move and fire a Dark Lance.

I'm honestly not trying to whine about Scourges, I use them now and again with Splinter Cannons and find them pretty useful against Guard, Orks and Nids. I just find Warriors, Ravagers and Jetbikes better tankhunters.

Lord_Squinty
25-11-2007, 23:29
However look at the range of Both the Splinter Cannon and Dark Lance. Both are 24" wheras in the Marine arsenal (with the exception of the Multi-Melta) there's nothing with a range lower than 36", that 12" makes a lot of difference.


Well my dark lances are 36" range, still wouldnt take them on scourges though... ;)

themandudeperson
25-11-2007, 23:34
eh, I'm not trying to make this a whiny thread. I think they're a pretty cool concept and fit the Dark Eldar's approach to a T. It's just that they suck.. Once the new codex comes out, I plan on buying the 5 ravagers in a box for apocalypse and converting two to raiders. Then I'll throw some other stuff together. If the Scourges manage to turn themselves around by then, great! If not, my ravagers will be enjoying some disintegrator goodness

Clockwork-Knight
25-11-2007, 23:42
I think they're a pretty cool concept and fit the Dark Eldar's approach to a T. It's just that they suck.. One could be malicious and say that the concept of the Dark Eldar's approach to combat therefore is to suck. :p

toxic_wisdom
26-11-2007, 01:08
toxic_wisdom had the right idea.

Take their Dark Lance option away, give them Disintegrators, make the "rapid" mode Assault instead of Heavy, and give them Jet Packs.


I think they should stay jump infantry, but I like the idea of a strength 4 AP 3 assault or strength 7 AP 2 heavy 1, blast weapon for them.. Jet packs I see as mostly a Tau thing personally

Thanx guys for the vote of confidence. Still toying with the Jet Pack vs Jump Pack - I'll continue working on the re-write and plan to have a few testrun battles with some friends. Hellions are next: Hellglaive as Splinter Carbine ( Assault 2 Range 18" )... no change as mentioned before to Splinter Rifles.

big squig
26-11-2007, 02:04
Change them to Jet Packs (a la Tau Battlesuits) instead of Jump Packs and let them move-and-fire. If need be, knock 12" off the range of their guns to compensate. And bingo, you've got a fast, but horrendously fragile if they do get caught, hit and run squad able to target Tanks or Infantry depending on their equippment.
That's the best idea yet. Though they still need to have their dark lances addressed as they are still useless even with jet packs.

Clockwork-Knight
26-11-2007, 02:09
In this case, instead of Dark Lances, they get Blasters...

Lord_Squinty
26-11-2007, 07:13
They could make them more akin to warp spiders, give them blasters, keep their 5+ armour, give them the move in the movement phase.
Then spiders move with 2xS6 shots (4 on exarch), while scourges get 1xS8.
Maybe even move them to Fast Attack
sounds good to me.

The_Outsider
26-11-2007, 08:08
Its not the lance + jump pack combo per se that makes them pointless - its the stupidly high cost of the weapons, 20 points for a splinter cannon? thats a joke.

However the jet pack idea + disintegrator is the best idea yet.

Blasters work even better - as scourges are a HS choice they deployfisrt so having short range blasters A) works well for scourges and B) means in missions where the enemy has to be X" away they push the enemy back while not sacrificing your deployment of the unit.

Same as the talos in that regard.