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TheDrugLordX
25-11-2007, 18:25
I havn't been very active with this hobby since this summer, but with the release of the new HE I'm going to, if I can find enough free time, to dust of my old High Elves and making the army I've always dreamed of.

Anyways, this army is themed around a more "vanilla" type of HE army. With vanilla, I mean the more simple HE units. Although, for some variation I added a unit of white lions. Also, they're very cool and a powerful addition to any He force:angel:

Anyways, the army is based on coolness and theme, and I'd like to keep it that way. However I want to army to be as competetive as possible whilst still keeping my theme. Thoughts on the list and suggestions are appreciated!

2250pts High Elves

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Archmage - 350pts
Talisamn of Saphery, Folariath's Robe, Silver Wand
Level 4 uppgrade

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Noble - 144pts
Radiant Gem of Hoeth
Dragon Armour, Great Weapon

Noble - 123pts
Armour of Caledor, Talisman of Loec
Great Weapon

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20 Spearelves - 195pts
Musician, Standard Bearer

20 Spearelves - 195pts
Musician, Standard Bearer

11 Archers - 121pts

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6 Ellyrian Reavers - 126pts
Bow

5 Ellyrian Reavers - 112pts
Bow, Musician

5 Ellyrian Reavers - 112pts
Bow, Musician

14 White Lions - 300pts
Banner of Sorcery, Gem of Courage
Full Command

Tiranoc Chariot - 85pts

Tiranoc Chariot - 85pts

----------------------------------------

Repeater Bolt Thrower - 100pts

Repeater Bolt Thrower - 100pts

Repeater Bolt Thrower - 100pts

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Total: 2248pts
Model Count: 89
Power Dice: 7 + d3
Dispel Dice: 5

Red_Lep
25-11-2007, 18:29
You might want to give your first Noble some kind of save.

therisnosaurus
25-11-2007, 20:14
I'd also recommend upping the white lion unit size a little, with the banner of sorcery and all they'll probably come under a lot of fire, and stubborn or no, you want to stop early panic tests. I'm testing a unit that's 16 strong in two ranks of eight, it works nicely to fill out your line, and is a great deterent/counter to heavy cavalry, 9 ws5 Str 6 attacks is not something most knights want to face (and since cavalry are inevitably 5 wide, 8 20mm bases fits just right. you could probably drop a bolt thrower or a reaver from each unit to pay for them

TheDrugLordX
26-11-2007, 12:02
You might want to give your first Noble some kind of save.
Problem is, the gem makes him a lvl 1 wizard. Meaning he can't have armour whilst still beeing a wizard.

After thinking about it, I will indeed buff the model count on my white lions! I dunno about having them 8 men wide, seems a little overkill when facing 5men wide infantry units (it's not every day that they will be up against a large heavy cavalry frontage, not to speak of bretonnia whom only use 3 men wide cavalry units). I think 14 white lions will suit just perfectly, removing 2 ellyrian reavers (42pts) and adding 2 white lions and giving the champion the Gem of courage (40pts).

***Army List Updated!

Arhalien
26-11-2007, 12:06
Absolutely nothing in 7th edition to stop mages wearing armour. Most of them have no option to take armour, but the rulebook does not forbid casting in armour.

TheDrugLordX
26-11-2007, 12:23
Absolutely nothing in 7th edition to stop mages wearing armour. Most of them have no option to take armour, but the rulebook does not forbid casting in armour.

Oh really?:D

I had no idea, havn't played any 7th edition really. Thought I had read up on all the rule changes, but clearly I was mistaken!

Now that changes a lot of things. Thanks for the input!

Arhalien
26-11-2007, 13:57
Not a problem.
Personally, I don;t see much use for the radiant gem except as a dispel dice generator. Only being able to throw 2 dice at a spell and only having 1 spell means that he's a very limited caster, and unless you roll up flaming sowrd of rhuin he won't be able to do much. Even with flaming sword his great weapon is still pretty powerful and more reliable. I'd say drop the gem and give the noble some protection; guardian phoenix is good as you've used the armour of caledor.
Also, given the predominance of infantry in the army, a BSB would be very useful; maybe upgrade the second noble to a BSB if you can find the points, as armour of caledor and great weapon is a very useful BSB build.

Hope that helps :)

TheDrugLordX
26-11-2007, 15:38
Well, the main idea is giving him The Bears' anger from the lore of beasts. With that spell he becomes a 6 attacks Str 6 beater (plus a T4 elf! :)). With the ability to always strike first that's a fearsome combination. If my opponent don't want me to have this beast in play, then he'll have to let me cast some other nasty spell with my lvl4 archmage. The extra PD and DD makes a huge difference IMO.

grhino
27-11-2007, 12:17
True ebout the magic and armour combo - it's legal. Want to try it once myself as well. bears anger makes a nasty spell for him indeed

TheDrugLordX
27-11-2007, 14:29
I've made some small changes to the list, mainly replacing the archmages equipment with some other equipment. This makes him less manouverable, but extremely hard to kill when I put him with the White Lions.

With him in the White Lions unit, I can use him as bait. Let the enemy charge the lions. Before they hit, the lions smack down a few, and as the enemy directs their attacks at the archmage... "woops, you can't touch him!". And see as the unit (and character!!!) wastes their attacks at nothingness.

Then as I plan on running the Lore of Shadows. I can either cast Steed of Shadows on himself, too move him out of combat, or cast Unseen Lurker, to have give the lions fast support. And if facing a fearcausing enemy, shades of death will save the unit from autobreaking. If I would lose combat, I have Gem of Courage as a Safety net to make sure the unit stay's in place!

***Army list updated!

Avatar of the Eldar
28-11-2007, 04:10
I havn't been very active with this hobby since this summer, but with the release of the new HE I'm going to, if I can find enough free time, to dust of my old High Elves and making the army I've always dreamed of.

Anyways, this army is themed around a more "vanilla" type of HE army. With vanilla, I mean the more simple HE units. Although, for some variation I added a unit of white lions. Also, they're very cool and a powerful addition to any He force:angel:

Anyways, the army is based on coolness and theme, and I'd like to keep it that way. However I want to army to be as competetive as possible whilst still keeping my theme. Thoughts on the list and suggestions are appreciated!

2250pts High Elves

----------------------------------------

Archmage - 350pts
Talisamn of Saphery, Folariath's Robe, Silver Wand
Level 4 uppgrade

----------------------------------------

Noble - 144pts
Radiant Gem of Hoeth
Dragon Armour, Great Weapon

Noble - 123pts
Armour of Caledor, Talisman of Loec
Great Weapon

----------------------------------------

20 Spearelves - 195pts
Musician, Standard Bearer

20 Spearelves - 195pts
Musician, Standard Bearer

11 Archers - 121pts

----------------------------------------

6 Ellyrian Reavers - 126pts
Bow

5 Ellyrian Reavers - 112pts
Bow, Musician

5 Ellyrian Reavers - 112pts
Bow, Musician

14 White Lions - 300pts
Banner of Sorcery, Gem of Courage
Full Command

Tiranoc Chariot - 85pts

Tiranoc Chariot - 85pts

----------------------------------------

Repeater Bolt Thrower - 100pts

Repeater Bolt Thrower - 100pts

Repeater Bolt Thrower - 100pts

----------------------------------------

Total: 2248pts
Model Count: 89
Power Dice: 7 + d3
Dispel Dice: 5

"Coolness and theme" are very subjective and quite often at odds with "competitive".

First off, whether or not mages can wear armor, the Radiant Gem always allowed the bearer to wear armor, whereas the Loremaster's Cloak did not. But that's the old book.

So, about your list. These are just my reactions based on playing/struggling with HE over the last 3 years. Ultimately, you need to learn from experience and try what you think is "cool" and not just follow the formulas.

* Your nobles are too vulnerable. At least put them on barded steed to get them to a 3+ save. You can stick them in with your infantry blocks if you make your movement trays a touch wider and a touch deeper. I believe you'd give your army a bigger boost if one was a BSB, without magic banner, with Helm of Fortune and Sword of Might, Shield, Barded Steed. 1+ re-rollable armor save.

* Not enough magic defense for an all-comers list. I personally have always preferred magic-dominant character combos (Arch + Mage + 2 Commanders/Nobles) If you want fighty, you might go with Prince and two lvl 2's, one with Jewel of the Dusk to pick up that extra power die. Magic is what HE is good at; it seems a shame not to play to their strengths.

* Spearblocks are solid choices. Why not give one of those spearblocks the Warbanner as FAE?

* If you put your White Lions in between the two blocks of spears, your chariots can guard their outside flanks. Gives you multiple options to launch combo attacks depending on how your opponent's units are lined up.

* 3 units of Ellyrion Reavers huh? How important is this to your "coolness and theme" quotient? I never fielded Reavers with the old book and I see even less reason to take them now. Unless you're making your mark as a contrarian. Out of all those wonderful special choices you're taking 3 units of the least effective. Yeow. Here's what you're giving up: THE CLOSE COMBAT PHASE. You have one unit of hitters in the whole army (that will be a magnet for all magic, shooting and chariots) and two poorly protected Nobles (equalling 6 White Lion attacks) are not going to make up for that. But try it for a while and see how it works for you. I'd love to learn something new.

* 3 RBT's is usually considered unfriendly, but considering your other choices (like not maxing Elite Infantry, or fielding Dragon Princes, Lion Chariots, or a Dragon) might be forgiven.

* No eagles. These can do a better job of redirection than the Reavers at a fraction of the price.

See my list for a sense of what my preferences are.

Hochachtungsvoll,

TheDrugLordX
28-11-2007, 14:19
I know that "coolness and theme" is very subjective. What I meant was that I want to include units/modelsl which I think are cool, and not base the army around what works best in tournaments etc. It is, after all, my own army to make however I want:)

I appreciate your comments, they're very insightful, and helps make a better army list. Though, I don't agree with you on all points;

Firstly, one of the nobles have 2+ save alredy, good enough IMO. As for the other one, I agree. The 5+ armour save makes him a very easy target. It's a little risky tactic, but if I manage to get Bear's Anger on him, he's powerful enough to deal with the enemy before they hit him. With the support of the 20 spearmen attacks (fielding them 7*3) means not many enemy models will get to fight back. The bears anger is however easy to dispell, but if my enemy prevents me from casting it successfully, my archmage will unleash even worse spells.

That AND I think that if you only spend pts on armour for your noble, you miss out a lot of his potential. That's a lot of pts on a character that surely won't die, but won't dish that much damage either. This is where my experiance differs from yours. Without the hardhitting character, the unit would be overthrown by anything with decent armour, break and be run down, where the noble won't be adding much more to your army. Still a risky tactic, but a risk I believe is worth taking.


I am playing at their strengths, just in an other way than you do. I got decent magic, not the most powerful, but decent. This bevause I think that I needed the extra units better than I needed that extra mage. Without the Seer + Channeler combo from the old book, I simply don't see that much usage from the good old lvl 2's any more. Not to mention that their pts cost have become higher.

I would really like atleast 1 scroll, but as I believe the extra spell and protection of my archmage is more important, I simply don't have room to include one. And like I said, i don't think it's worth adding a mage just for the scroll.

I guess you didn't notice, the main strength of this army is it's manouverbility and flexibility, which is another good strength of the HE (magic not beeing the only good strength!!). Here the reavers become important, that's why I have included 3 of them. They are weak against missile fire though, so they need really carefull placement to be effective. Haha and this brings me to my next point; you don't think they're powerful compared to other special HE choices, and really, they're not. This is where the "cool" stuff comes in. I think reavers are really cool, and thus I wanted to include some in my list. I could always try adding in another unit of elite infantry. But that would what, make me drop 2 units of reavers? Not a good trade IMO, but that's just what I think.

The main reason I prefer reavers over eagles is their ability to negate ranks. Otherwise eagles would definately been in the list.

I also have to say, I'm a bit chocked to hear your comments after I saw your list, as I beleive it's very similar to mine. Sure we have made some different choices, but the core of the lists are very similar. Thanks for your input, you've said several things worth thinking about (even if it doesn't seem like it in my response:p)

Avatar of the Eldar
28-11-2007, 15:16
I know that "coolness and theme" is very subjective. What I meant was that I want to include units/modelsl which I think are cool, and not base the army around what works best in tournaments etc. It is, after all, my own army to make however I want:)

I appreciate your comments, they're very insightful, and helps make a better army list. Though, I don't agree with you on all points;

Firstly, one of the nobles have 2+ save alredy, good enough IMO. As for the other one, I agree. The 5+ armour save makes him a very easy target. It's a little risky tactic, but if I manage to get Bear's Anger on him, he's powerful enough to deal with the enemy before they hit him. With the support of the 20 spearmen attacks (fielding them 7*3) means not many enemy models will get to fight back. The bears anger is however easy to dispell, but if my enemy prevents me from casting it successfully, my archmage will unleash even worse spells.

That AND I think that if you only spend pts on armour for your noble, you miss out a lot of his potential. That's a lot of pts on a character that surely won't die, but won't dish that much damage either. This is where my experiance differs from yours. Without the hardhitting character, the unit would be overthrown by anything with decent armour, break and be run down, where the noble won't be adding much more to your army. Still a risky tactic, but a risk I believe is worth taking.


I am playing at their strengths, just in an other way than you do. I got decent magic, not the most powerful, but decent. This bevause I think that I needed the extra units better than I needed that extra mage. Without the Seer + Channeler combo from the old book, I simply don't see that much usage from the good old lvl 2's any more. Not to mention that their pts cost have become higher.

I would really like atleast 1 scroll, but as I believe the extra spell and protection of my archmage is more important, I simply don't have room to include one. And like I said, i don't think it's worth adding a mage just for the scroll.

I guess you didn't notice, the main strength of this army is it's manouverbility and flexibility, which is another good strength of the HE (magic not beeing the only good strength!!). Here the reavers become important, that's why I have included 3 of them. They are weak against missile fire though, so they need really carefull placement to be effective. Haha and this brings me to my next point; you don't think they're powerful compared to other special HE choices, and really, they're not. This is where the "cool" stuff comes in. I think reavers are really cool, and thus I wanted to include some in my list. I could always try adding in another unit of elite infantry. But that would what, make me drop 2 units of reavers? Not a good trade IMO, but that's just what I think.

The main reason I prefer reavers over eagles is their ability to negate ranks. Otherwise eagles would definately been in the list.

I also have to say, I'm a bit chocked to hear your comments after I saw your list, as I beleive it's very similar to mine. Sure we have made some different choices, but the core of the lists are very similar. Thanks for your input, you've said several things worth thinking about (even if it doesn't seem like it in my response:p)

Fair enough. I respect you for sticking to your guns (or bows as the case may be) and I meant it when I said that I'd be interested in hearing if the 3 units of Reavers work out for you. It was offered in the spirit of take it or leave it. I'm not bringing tablets down from Mt Sinai. I see it as a dialog not a lecture. It certainly helps me test my ideas and helps me get clear about what makes sense to me.

To continue the conversation a bit...

* I've given up on banking on one spell (Bear's Anger) if I'm not dominating the magic phase. If I were your opponent, I'd be keeping dice ready to shut that down. Your archmage may or may not be in a position to unleash worse spells by that time.

* Yes, our beloved Seer + Channeler combo is gone, but we were spoiled with that. Our mages are still superior in what they can choose from in terms of items and lores. Now they're extra protected by their unit's ASF. Big trade off, I'd say.

* I belong to the school that HE hero's are better kept alive, do moderate damage, boost LD and deny points. Their fighting kit is expensive, and the only two pieces that interest me are the new Star Lance and the good old Reaver Bow. Durable Nobles (1+ rerollable) could absorb challenges and keep my cav/first rank in the fight. That said, things may be different now, so experience will tell.

*As for added protection for the Archmage, the Talisman of Saphery and Forlaith's Robe seem unnecessary, not to mention redundant. In my last 50 games I don't think I can recall my Archmage ever getting done in by magic or magic weapons. Why not the Annulian Crystal or Ring of Fury, something useful every turn of the game?

* Back to the Reavers. OK, they're the "cool" you were referencing. Pretty models, but this is a HUGE difference between our lists. First, with ASF, manouver just doesn't mean that much anymore. Second, what do you have, 5 Str 4 attacks on the charge, Str 3 after that and a 5+ save? I expect you'd be stripped of most of these pretty quick. Heck most other fast cav and flyers could handle them. For 10 more points per unit you could have some durable Silver Helms with Str 5 on the charge. But since I don't want to call your baby ugly, let's agree to disagree here. (Though I predict these babies will be sent off to the orphanage after a few games.)

* I would suggest you consider the Skeinsliver instead of or in addition to the gem of courage. Getting the first turn to unleash magic and bolt thrower goodness is worth 10 pts.

* Finally, I'll reiterate that there's a big difference in our lists. When I place White Lions, Swordmasters, and 2 Lion Chariots supported by two big blocks of spears, my opponents will likely have some concern. I would expect your opponents to feel relief after seeing you place those 3 units of Reavers. Oh, but I've lapsed back into that argument. Apologies!

To end where I began, I applaud you pushing back and I would ask you to post your battle summaries over the next couple of weeks. I'll keep and eye out for your nom de guerre.

Best regards,

TheDrugLordX
29-11-2007, 22:21
*Usually, I'm on your side when it comes to "putting all my eggs in one basket" (or in this case putting the Radient Gem of Hoeth on a noble and "hope" my opponent doesn't dispell the bears anger). Though as the chess player I am (yeah I know, I have an tacticall advantage;)) I beleive the best way to attack your opponent is to provide as many options of attacks as possible, in fact, so many that your opponent won't be able to anticipate them all.

Say you cast the Bears anger, and your opponent does dispell it. This gives you a bigger chance to cast greater spells successfully with your archmage, something very well appreciated.

If he doesn't dispel the bears anger, he has a spell to worry about later in the game. Keep hitting him with though spells and watch as he looses his mind as he doesn't know what to dispel. The easiest way to win a game of chess is when the information becomes too much for your opponent to handle, I believe this is the same case for warhammer.

In addition, I plan on running Lore of Shadows (most games anyway) on my archmage, meaning that if I'm allowed to keep the Bears anger on my noble, I could later in the magic phase cast Steed of Shadows on him and send him away to kill whatever need to be killed. However one need to be careful, so that he doesn't get killed the next turn (or atleast not without a fight!!).

And as we're talking about the noble; after looking over my list again, I suddenly realised that I have 2pts left! I could spend those points on a shield for the weakly armoured noble, giving him a 3+ save if it would be needed.

*I'm a bit curious, how the ***** (ehrm.. :D) do you play points denyal with HE? They're really fragile, REALLY fragile. I have always found it hard to protect my elves from harm, but have instead realised that if you hit back harder than they hit you, you'll mostly come out as the winner. I guess this is the main reason to why we see the HE so differently.

*We apparantly have very different metas. Never faced a Jaguar Saurus hero? Tunneler teams? Even though the White Lions to strike first, there are A LOT of units out there capable to survive the lions attack and still dish out enough damage to slay the archmage. I've protected my archmage well for these occations, whilst you have not. But if it works for you, then go for it!

It also kinda acts like a bait, like I said in some earlier post. With a fast aggresive unit like the white Lions (like I said, I play aggressive) many opponents will think "omg?! That archmage is a easy target for my..." and as they take the bait, they find the archmage untouchable. This is something I yet have to try though as the Robe is a new item in the book. Anyways I just feel like I have more options this way than going with some other stuff.

*I aggre with you that the reavers ain't the strongest unit in the list, but they do have their worth. Maybe to clear things up a little, this is how I see it: Reavers are weaker than HE elite infantry, no question about it (all-round that is). However, just packing more and more elite infantry units, having unit after unit walk after each other gives far fewer combat tricks than adding another type of element would completely (in this case switching a unit of elite infantry for a unit of fast cavalry).

To be honest, I would very much like to see a unit of Pheonix Guards in my list. However, a unit of 12 would be around 200-250ish pts, that's the same as 2 units of reavers! Dropping 2 units for 1 unit reduces the armys's total flexibility, and as I belive flexibility to be a very powerful tool, I'm not keen on making that trade. Perhaps I should drop one unit of reavers...

*As for the actual List. I want a unit of 12 Pheonix Guard, as well as I want to add another mage. Before I saw that extra mage as a very weak addition considering it's high points cost, and the reason was because it had to randomise it's spells (my archmage hade the seerstaff in previous versions of the list) and thus not beeing able to choose spells that either synergies with my list, or havocs my enemy list. Though as the Seerstaff is now available, I would gladly like too have an additional mage in my list. The archers seem like the most natural drop, but then? A lvl 2 mage with seerstaff comes at 165+pts, if I want somthing else, like a scroll (which could come in handy).

Well, seems I got some more stuff to think about. Anyways, I know for sure that I'm keeping the White Lions and Spearelves, so off to painting them first! (as I'm kinda making a new army... completely pink!!! ;))