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RavenBloodwind
25-11-2007, 21:27
Hi all,

Over the past year I've read and commented on many an army list.

It seems that there are two camps for taking champions in combat skirmish units (primarily WE dryads and wardancers but the new HE shadow warriors also apply and I'm sure there are others, beastherds?).

Side one: For about the same points you can get another trooper and more bodies is better so never take a champion

Side two: A champions extra attack in the same frontage is superior so always take a champion

Having played WE for a while I'm of the opinion that my combat skirmish units have to have champions. Given the absence of static CR, success for these units comes from inflicting casualties. Having more attacks in the same frontage just improves your odds. Having an extra body may keep unit size up while receiving incoming fire but frankly I don't really notice the need.

So what say you? More bodies for the points or more attacks? (or some other nuance)

marv335
25-11-2007, 21:35
I use my shadow warriors for their shooting rather than their combat prowess. I'd rather have the extra bow shot. If they are getting into combat, it's with warmachine crews.

RavenBloodwind
25-11-2007, 21:40
Good point, I wasn't really thinking about the fact they're primarily shooting, it's just that their champion actually gets an extra attack whereas most missile troops only get +1 BS (not attack). It's the +1 A that in my mind distinguishes the champion of a 'combat' unit vs a 'missile' unit.

Flypaper
26-11-2007, 01:46
My take on it is that the vulnerability to Stupid Challenge Tricks (tm) means it's never worth it unless the unit is also doubling as a mage bodyguard.

Offensively: if you charge a unit with a wizard in it (or a solo spellcaster, but at least then you can outnumber) and he challenges, you'll only be able to direct the Champ's attacks at him, meaning you probably won't get the kill.

Defensively: a fast solo hero with a big weapon (or a big dragon!) can swoop in, challenge, and rack up the overkill while preventing the rest of your unit from striking back.

forgottenlor
26-11-2007, 06:45
I sometimes take a champ for more melee oriented skirmishers like shadowrunners or ghouls, because when attacking war machines or other skirmishers sometimes I end up fighting with a small frontage and the extra attack comes in handy. I would never take a champ for +1 to hit with one bow shot though.

Vsurma
26-11-2007, 08:01
No but defensively you might take it in a shooty unit...

I take them for my units of skinks, if a dragon or the like attacks the unit I can challenge, thus loosing at most only 1 model, if I then manage to outrun I am left with most of my unit intact... As most shooty units are so weak in CC anyway the loss of CC attacks is hardly noticeable...

Ok dragon might not be the best thing to compare to since it will run you down :=) but other slower things may not.

Briohmar
26-11-2007, 10:02
With Beasts of Chaos, it is essential to take a Foe Render. He gets extra LD, and extra Strength, plus I alwasy put a bray shaman in a herd, so the FR is there to protect the Shaman from challenges (ha, ha, by bray shamans always have either chaos armor, a bray staff (magical) or both.) With my favorite bray staff I can have a 5+ AS or 2 attacks at S6, but the FR doesn't know that, so he continues to protect his shaman.

Alx_152
26-11-2007, 15:01
I would say, use a champion in skirmishers expected to go in combat, and no champion in shooty skirmishers, which should avoid combat.
That option isn't above, so no vote for me.

CauCaSus
26-11-2007, 15:27
Offensively: if you charge a unit with a wizard in it (or a solo spellcaster, but at least then you can outnumber) and he challenges, you'll only be able to direct the Champ's attacks at him, meaning you probably won't get the kill.

This doesn't really matter since you can just refuse and exchange the champ for another model. Granted, you lose an attack, but its not the end of the world and the wizard is probably still toast.

OTOH, I like to use my Skaven Tunnelling teams against warmachines, and since they are usually only three models large, that extra little attack could make the little difference

Flypaper
27-11-2007, 08:21
I take them for my units of skinks, if a dragon or the like attacks the unit I can challenge, thus loosing at most only 1 model, if I then manage to outrun I am left with most of my unit intact...
Blowpipes maybe (though it hardly seems worth it, not like blowie skinks are ever going to hold a charge against a hitty hero!), but never on javelins. Why reduce their mage-hunting skills unnecessarily?

This doesn't really matter since you can just refuse and exchange the champ for another model. Granted, you lose an attack, but its not the end of the world and the wizard is probably still toast.Against single models or if your unit's 7+ in size only. If you're running anything smaller you'll probably have to spread your frontage out entirely to match his, in which case you won't be able to refuse challenges.

Edit: this comes into play particularly in the case of suicide charges into fully ranked units the wizard's hiding in.

Sunfang
27-11-2007, 16:38
I play wood elves myself and dont feel that having a champion does all that well save wardancers.