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Imperialis_Dominatus
26-11-2007, 09:11
Hey all. It is my understanding that chainaxes were relatively standard issue before the Heresy. Now they are not, and are replaced by the chainsword from all appearances. I was just curious why the chainaxe was phased out of the Loyalist armories... there are explanations for certain other items (Reaper autocannons and twin-link bolters were subsumed by the superior tech of assault cannons and storm bolters), but I haven't seen anything about chainaxes. The only reason I can think of is that the chainaxe is aesthetically more fitting with a Chaotic force, fitting in with their themes, than with Loyalists and their own themes. But this does not necessarily answer the question.

So, why no chainaxes?

pookie
26-11-2007, 10:06
possible just because a Sword is a better weapon?

Randallw
26-11-2007, 10:14
I'd say because Chainaxes ARE more fitting for Chaos, and your more brutal form of SM Chapter. Having a rotating blade on an axe adds little more than on a sword, and with a sword you can parry. So SM would stick with a chainsword as it has more utility. Chaos marines, and I particularly mean Berserkers, go psycho and chop you with it. They don't have time for the subtlety of a sword so they use a Chainaxe.

Finnith
26-11-2007, 10:16
Well back in 2d edition there were also power axes (one currently being wielded by a AC in my noise marines squads as a power weapon).

Think it had different numbers to a power sword in that it could be used as a standard axe (same stats as a sword) or as a two handed weapon giving the user a better str bonus.

Im guessing because in the current climate axes are seen more for evil/barbarian/thug types while the sword still has its noble appeal.

DantesInferno
26-11-2007, 10:42
Hey all. It is my understanding that chainaxes were relatively standard issue before the Heresy. Now they are not, and are replaced by the chainsword from all appearances. I was just curious why the chainaxe was phased out of the Loyalist armories... there are explanations for certain other items (Reaper autocannons and twin-link bolters were subsumed by the superior tech of assault cannons and storm bolters), but I haven't seen anything about chainaxes. The only reason I can think of is that the chainaxe is aesthetically more fitting with a Chaotic force, fitting in with their themes, than with Loyalists and their own themes. But this does not necessarily answer the question.

So, why no chainaxes?

Chainaxes aren't completely unknown in the Imperium post-Heresy. There are illustrations of Flesh Tearers, for instance, using them.

Which should give you a sense of the style of fighting they're associated with. It's not hard to believe that a weapon so strongly identified with the World Eaters Legion would have fallen heavily out of fashion after the Heresy.

While the actual capabilities of the chainaxe and the sorts of fighting to which it is suited may have contributed to its decline in popularity, it's equally conceivable that the stigma attached to the World Eaters would have been a large factor in its fall in popularity.

The_Patriot
26-11-2007, 13:13
Hey all. It is my understanding that chainaxes were relatively standard issue before the Heresy. Now they are not, and are replaced by the chainsword from all appearances. I was just curious why the chainaxe was phased out of the Loyalist armories... there are explanations for certain other items (Reaper autocannons and twin-link bolters were subsumed by the superior tech of assault cannons and storm bolters), but I haven't seen anything about chainaxes. The only reason I can think of is that the chainaxe is aesthetically more fitting with a Chaotic force, fitting in with their themes, than with Loyalists and their own themes. But this does not necessarily answer the question.

So, why no chainaxes?

Because Roboute wrote the Index Astartes and said that they're evile! ;)

Findecano
26-11-2007, 14:14
I can see chainaxes being more effective against certain enemys tough; orks, necrons and perhaps tyranids come to mind. against heavily armoured foes (CSM) the axe isn't precise enough, and against fast opponents (eldar) they aren't fast enough. however, with about 1000*1000= 1 million marines, and with about just as many worlds held by the imperium IIRC, the strength of marines is going to be propaganda. with swords, the marines uphold an imagery of knights saving a peasants world on behalf of the emperor. with a chainaxe... less so.

Commander Dante
26-11-2007, 17:58
Some marines still use axes.... ;) *hefts his mighty power axe*

Hive Mind 33
26-11-2007, 18:17
Because Roboute wrote the Index Astartes and said that they're evile! ;)

Thank god i use the Sons of Russ, im gonna give my blood claws chain axes.

Wyatt
26-11-2007, 18:40
Well back in 2d edition there were also power axes (one currently being wielded by a AC in my noise marines squads as a power weapon).

Back in 2nd Ed? They still exist now don't they? (One of the new veterans bares one)

> WD 334 page 8 "Veteran Sergeant with power weapon and plasma pistol" on the right - he's holding an axe.

brother alinski
26-11-2007, 19:05
Power axes are still used. The chain sword tends to be a weapon for battle brothers or low officers in the chapter. The chain axe would have been a similer deal its still used but not by most of the chapters that GW have a miniture range for like Black templers or Ultramarines. As its been said SW and Flesh Tearers use them.

Imperialis_Dominatus
26-11-2007, 21:53
Hmm. Never seen the illustrations of the Flesh Tearers before. And I know that power axes exist... :D. Me like power axes. I was talking about chainaxes.

Very well. So the Codex says no. Well I say.... screw Roboute, he ain't the boss of me.

I read somewhere on Warseer that though the general perception of axes is that they are a very dangerous, unwieldy weapon, if skilled, an axe-wielder can overcome their disadvantages... and a Space Marine would undoubtedly be skilled in his weapons. Was it Azimaith? He's into ARMA IIRC, right?

Rikens
26-11-2007, 22:09
Nutz to chain-axes. I want to arm a squad of Berzerkers with chain-spoonz! Why spoons? They're blunt, they'll hurt more!

Supremearchmarshal
26-11-2007, 22:22
Hmm. Never seen the illustrations of the Flesh Tearers before. And I know that power axes exist... :D. Me like power axes. I was talking about chainaxes.

Very well. So the Codex says no. Well I say.... screw Roboute, he ain't the boss of me.

Well the only CSM I've seen wielding chainaxes are Khorne Berzerkers or khornate Champions, so I wouldn't say they're popular with CSM, either. Chainaxes were introduced to 40k together with Khonre Berserkers, and had a higher armour save modifier than Chainswords, but couldn't parry. So I guess they were meant to be something specific to the Berserkers, much like sonic weapons are to Noise Marines.

I've never read that the codex forbids them - I think they're just considered obsolete, like combi-bolters.

Sideros Peltarion
26-11-2007, 22:33
Hmm. Never seen the illustrations of the Flesh Tearers before. And I know that power axes exist... :D. Me like power axes. I was talking about chainaxes.

Very well. So the Codex says no. Well I say.... screw Roboute, he ain't the boss of me.

I read somewhere on Warseer that though the general perception of axes is that they are a very dangerous, unwieldy weapon, if skilled, an axe-wielder can overcome their disadvantages... and a Space Marine would undoubtedly be skilled in his weapons. Was it Azimaith? He's into ARMA IIRC, right?

You are certainly right about axes being dangerous and useful. In some circumstances they are more useful than swords (in a close press like building clearance and shieldwalls) and you are pretty much guaranteed to do more damage with an axe than a sword plus they are very handy for hooking things.

brother alinski
26-11-2007, 22:48
Nutz to chain-axes. I want to arm a squad of Berzerkers with chain-spoonz! Why spoons? They're blunt, they'll hurt more!

FEEL THE FURTY OF THE CHAINSPORK!!!!!


had to be said.

azimaith
26-11-2007, 23:24
Hmm. Never seen the illustrations of the Flesh Tearers before. And I know that power axes exist... :D. Me like power axes. I was talking about chainaxes.

Very well. So the Codex says no. Well I say.... screw Roboute, he ain't the boss of me.

I read somewhere on Warseer that though the general perception of axes is that they are a very dangerous, unwieldy weapon, if skilled, an axe-wielder can overcome their disadvantages... and a Space Marine would undoubtedly be skilled in his weapons. Was it Azimaith? He's into ARMA IIRC, right?

What it spawns from is the misconception of how axes are used, which is more than: "Give em the pointy end!"

Granted, an axe has a smaller striking surface than a sword, but a swords striking surface isn't always totally useful. Tip cuts and the like against armor will render relatively little benefit for example.

To strike at someone with an axe is alot like slapping someone with your hand. Your hand is undoubtably a smaller area than your arm is as a whole, yet people still manage without missing. Same with an axe, human kinesthetics prevents most terrible mishaps.

Furthermore the idea was posited it was easy to get an axe stuck behind someone because of a missed swing. Experience shows the number one mistake of people new to nearly any hand weapon from sword to club is to strike at the very extent of your reach and stay as far from an enemy as possible. In this case an axe is very similar to a sword in that new fighters often "Whiff" they strokes as they don't want to get to close, assuming distance means protection (Which to a degree is true). In that case an axe is only marginally worse than a sword, so little that it won't likely create a huge difference. Axes, just like swords, were around 2-3 pounds, despite the consistantly spawned idea that medieval weapons weighed ungodly amounts. (I think the most i've heard quoted as "real" was a two handed sword weighing 100 pounds and being swung easily) :rolleyes:

This being granted a strong warrior would recover just slightly slower (the weight being at the head of the weapon rather than balanced across it as a whole) Now scale up the warrior and the axe and you've got space marines and chain axes.


You are certainly right about axes being dangerous and useful. In some circumstances they are more useful than swords (in a close press like building clearance and shieldwalls) and you are pretty much guaranteed to do more damage with an axe than a sword plus they are very handy for hooking things.

To be honest i'd be more comfortable with a dagger in that sort of press than an axe or sword.

Anyhow, as for hooking things, this is true and this "trick" as Codex:Wallerstien put it (if I recall correctly) can be used to pull away shields (in conjunction with giving your opponent a face breaking shield punch) or to hook under legs and arms.

VanHel
27-11-2007, 04:21
I think I'll bitz order a few chanaxes and sprinkle them through my IG.

folnjir
27-11-2007, 05:36
Well the only CSM I've seen wielding chainaxes are Khorne Berzerkers or khornate Champions, so I wouldn't say they're popular with CSM, either. Chainaxes were introduced to 40k together with Khonre Berserkers, and had a higher armour save modifier than Chainswords, but couldn't parry. So I guess they were meant to be something specific to the Berserkers, much like sonic weapons are to Noise Marines.

I've never read that the codex forbids them - I think they're just considered obsolete, like combi-bolters.

There used to be chainaxes on the old CSM close combat sprue for use with the old metal plastic hybrid CSMs. So originally they were not just for Beserkers.

As far as I can remember GW has never provided any sort of explanation of why they are no longer favoured by Marines. I have a few in my SW army as in their old background they were known for using armour and weapons that would have been replaced by other chapters. Now everyone uses the old armour marks at least.

ArtificerArmour
27-11-2007, 07:12
THe Horus Heresy artwork book shows Word Bearers using chain axes, so its not just WE.

devolutionary
27-11-2007, 07:34
This was initially a rules differentiation. The Chainsword in 2nd Ed was a S4 weapon, -1 ASM, with Parry. It was pretty damn nifty. The Chainaxe as a weapon was not introduced in to 2nd ed rules until Chaos popped up again (they had spent a substantial length of time languishing) where it had it's own rules beyond the Chainsword (all weapons had unique rules, look up old Power Axes, so awesome). It was primarily a weapon of Khorne (the association transferring over from WHFB) and was effectively the weapon that made Berserkers really great. This association of Chain Axe == Khorne lasted all the way up until the most recent Dex.

Chainsworded Codpiece
29-11-2007, 22:25
Chainaxes can't possibly be all gone.

Atom-Heart-Nutters such as the Flesh Tearers et al still use them, yes. Further, they use devices that are even MORE silly than chainaxes. Those "flesh tearer" wheel-shaped-blade-with a-whirling-edge-of-chain-blade things come to mind...(are those thingies actually called "flesh tearers"? I'm not sure, I may be making that up).

My guess is, it's the assumed "pedigree" at work. Relative utility of weapons for a Marine often is only just as important as the reaction that weapon evokes, or the presumed "character" it represents.

Bolters are a great example. We can see taht many detail-oriented games such as Necromunda/Inquisitor show that Bolters are expensive to maintain and fidgety weapons in a lot of ways...

...but boy howdy, when you see an Astartes pointing one at you, that's TEN THOUSAND YEARS of "reputation for brutality and swift, harsh attack" flying at ya.

Even an IG, using the choppped-down, "normal human" version of the Bolter still gets to tap into that vibe. People are Extra Scared of him...he's got a bolter!

The pedigree of the Chainaxe got fouled by the Heresy.

But my guess is, many Space-a-Rinos still use them...

...they just call them chain-weapons or chain-blades now.

New term, less evil in the assumed pedigree.

Imperialis_Dominatus
29-11-2007, 22:28
Well, hell, I'm gonna file off the Chaotic imagery and throw some Chainaxes on my 'rines then. They are sufficiently removed from the rest of the Astartes and the Imperium to ignore what I see as trifling Imperial taboos. :p

Sideros Peltarion
29-11-2007, 22:39
Well, hell, I'm gonna file off the Chaotic imagery and throw some Chainaxes on my 'rines then. They are sufficiently removed from the rest of the Astartes and the Imperium to ignore what I see as trifling Imperial taboos. :p

In what way are your Marines removed from the Imperium. Is it Soul Drinkers stylie?

And on subject, you know the classic Viking barbarian image with a big axe and how intimidating and scary that is? Well now scale them up to a 7 foot tall guy wearing bullet proof armour!:evilgrin:

Sabbad
29-11-2007, 23:00
Chainaxes are in Inquisitor, comfortably sitting alongside other standard Imperial weaponry. It's not gone from the Imperial armoury.

Imperialis_Dominatus
30-11-2007, 07:01
In what way are your Marines removed from the Imperium. Is it Soul Drinkers stylie?

More or less. Read the fluff if you want. :D Shameless plug, I know. But I'll have more soon!


And on subject, you know the classic Viking barbarian image with a big axe and how intimidating and scary that is? Well now scale them up to a 7 foot tall guy wearing bullet proof armour!:evilgrin:

You know that classic image of *insert warrior with intimidating weapon here*? Well now scale them up to a 7 foot tall guy wearing bullet proof armour! :p

Yeah, Marines with their bare hands are scary dudes.


Chainaxes are in Inquisitor, comfortably sitting alongside other standard Imperial weaponry. It's not gone from the Imperial armoury.

I must read up. *runs to specialist website*

Spider
30-11-2007, 07:56
Arg!

Forum just ate the best post ever written.:mad:

In a nutshell...when comparing Khornate chainaxe nutters vs Codex Assault marines, the chainaxe wielding looney either wins quickly (and messily) or gets shot in the face and perhaps never even gets into combat.

Bolt/plasmer/flamer Pistol + Chainsword> Double Handed wirling axe of death.

Just think of the classic Indiana Jones scene.

Not to mention that from an Imperial point of view that chaisnwords would have to be cheaper to make...so would be a more cost effective way of equipping the Emperors finest.

charlie_c67
30-11-2007, 13:10
Though the CSM design of the teeth on both side of the blade is actually better. In general the blade will win over the axe because you can parry more effectively and, if the sword is double edged, if you miss with a swipe you can reverse your swing a lot more easily than with an axe. That said, a point will usually beat an edge any day.

Sideros Peltarion
30-11-2007, 13:32
More or less. Read the fluff if you want. :D Shameless plug, I know. But I'll have more soon!



You know that classic image of *insert warrior with intimidating weapon here*? Well now scale them up to a 7 foot tall guy wearing bullet proof armour! :p

Yeah, Marines with their bare hands are scary dudes.



I must read up. *runs to specialist website*

I just read the fluff, and I like it. I always find Chapters like that more interesting than the others, thats why I ahve always been a Relictors and Soul Drinkers fan, but never much of a Space Wolf fan, despite their Vikingness.

What you said about Marines there is pretty true actually. People always do that don't they? lol

Warboss Jhura Ironfang
30-11-2007, 22:58
Its a thing of pride- Smurfs use swords because they are the "noble, refined" thing to use. Where as us Wolves use axes because axes look cool, suit our mindset, and hurt a lot more than some poncy sword. Also, axes are more durable and useful (beer keg opener anyone?) than brittle swords. :evilgrin:

Cheerz,
WB Ironfang

Mort
01-12-2007, 07:31
Its a thing of pride- Smurfs use swords because they are the "noble, refined" thing to use.

They use petrol-powered chainsaws,for christs sake!!! I cant see anything noble in a weapon that is noisy,stinks and drenches you in your enemys blood,really ;)

I think most loyal marines prefer chainswords over chainaxes because the weord is a weapon as well as a sign of rank (that is said in the novel"space marine" when somebody borrows his sergeants sword). So the more codex conform chapters use swords,the wild,feral ones axes.

From a practical point of view: i have made the expirience that it is really hard to fight with an axe over a longer period of time,compared to a sword.
Problem is the weight of the weapon sits at its head,and that requires more strength than wielding a sword,which has its weight a few centimeters over the hilt(at least mine have it there).
Its also a difference if you got hit by a sword or an axe,an axe can hurt much more,and has far more power behind its blows.
On the other hand an axe is slower than a sword(not generally speaking,but in most cases),although it is possible to parry or stab with an axe.
So much for mediveal fighting..

So,when it comes to space marines,who dont have to worry about draining stamina the only argument for the sword over the axe is speed.
Space marines use swords because they want to be fast,berzerksers use the axes because they want to make sure their victim is decapitated,chopped in pieces and so on.

But afterall,both weapons are just funny looking chainsaws,and as soon as sombody has the right clothes or a zipper on its jacket the whole Discssion will be useless because the chainsaw either jams or is ripped out of your hand,flies away into the sun and is never seen again...

Logarithm Udgaur
01-12-2007, 13:23
I am not sure if it is in this game or one of the other SF games I play, but I had always thought that SM weapons were magnetized to the hand to prevent this sort of thing happening.

Mort
01-12-2007, 13:48
Uhh,well,never heard of any magnetic devices.
And there are some situations in CC when it is useful,even necessary to let your weapon go,so i would find it a bit stupid.
On the other hand,its 40k.

Tehkonrad
02-12-2007, 05:44
well the flesh teares IA has a pic of an Imperial chain axe

Logarithm Udgaur
02-12-2007, 14:31
I would think that any such tech would have an On/Off switch. I must have been thinking Shadowrun.