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Morglum Ironhide
27-11-2007, 02:12
That theres is some rule, some where that says mounted characters can't lead normal infantry units!
Was have a discussion with some-one on another forum about orc tactics, and he suggested this.
I think it's completely stupid, but I don't have a copy of the 7th rule book on me, and theres nothing about it in the online FAQ

Atrahasis
27-11-2007, 02:23
A mounted character may join a unit provided his mount cannot fly and the unit is not skirmishing.

Morglum Ironhide
27-11-2007, 02:36
Damnit! Thats not the answer I want.
What about all the issues with base sizes? How would they fit in a small, 20mm based unit? Just seems wrong.

Atrahasis
27-11-2007, 03:07
The widely accepted method is to have a mounted model occupy as many "spaces" in a unit as their base occupies, so a cavalry model will occupt a space in teh first and second ranks of an infantry unit.

Capt_Ithuriel
27-11-2007, 06:29
Sorry to dissapoint you Morglum, but base size no longer matters.

In fact, as long as the character and his mount are less that US 5, they can't be targetted seperately and gain benefits from the 'Look out Sir!' rule.

EvC
27-11-2007, 10:16
There is no rule saying so because it doesn't exist :)

Festus
27-11-2007, 10:22
Sorry to dissapoint you Morglum, but base size no longer matters.
To be precise: Base Size never mattered in joinig.

A mounted model could always join an infantry unit.

It is just with 7th that it may not be picked out with shooting anymore.

Festus

T10
27-11-2007, 10:37
I sense it is time for that graphic again....


-T10

Makaber
27-11-2007, 11:07
I love that graphic.

Festus
27-11-2007, 11:17
I don't

Festus

Falkman
27-11-2007, 23:42
Damn that graphic T10, damn it to hell! :p

theunwantedbeing
28-11-2007, 00:02
Allowing larger base models to occupy the space of other models is the best way.
Sure cavalry bases in 20mm bases doesnt work so well but dont put those people in your units then......

DeathlessDraich
28-11-2007, 08:15
For the purposes of aesthetics (and flank and rear btb contact in combat) slotting in the cavalry model into an area that fits is desirable.
But
For counting ranks, formation and number of models etc, T10's diagram should be used.

The Slann is the only exception to this as far as I know.

T10
28-11-2007, 08:44
Well, GW has been kind enough to take the issue into account regarding the Grail Reliquae and the Doombell as well. These "rank up" nicely.

-T10

Festus
28-11-2007, 10:52
For counting ranks, formation and number of models etc, T10's diagram should be used.
Well, no, it shouldn not, as it is counterintuitive, not intended and a definite oversight, which will be amended in a Q&A if the designers think that someone really is stupid enough to play it like this -

even if all GW publications show how GW themselves put characters into units (see Skarsnik, Shieldborne Dwarf, et al.)

Festus

T10
28-11-2007, 13:11
When putting alarger-based model into a unit You have the option of messing up the unit, as showed in the graphic, or displacing more than just a single model:

50/40mm = 2x2 25/20mm or 2x1 cavalry
cavalry = 1x2 25/20mm

Counting them as representing "more models", however, is not a good idea, since it artificially inflates the number of ranks.

Example:
Assume a unit of 13 25mm base models arranged in a 5-wide formation with 3 models in the last rank. They are joined by a character on a cavalry base. The character displaces two models, creating a neat unit, 5-wide and apparently 3 complete ranks, yet consisting of only 14 models.

If the unit had been arranged in the proper (and clumsy) fashion, it would have had only two complete ranks.


-T10

DeathlessDraich
28-11-2007, 13:24
Well, no, it shouldn not, as it is counterintuitive, not intended and a definite oversight, which will be amended in a Q&A if the designers think that someone really is stupid enough to play it like this -
Festus

Refer to T10's answer above.

A model is a model whether its base is large or small. Counting the larger base size as more than 1 model will violate:
a) Shooting randomisation rules
b) Formation rules
c) Number of ranks rules

As the rules stands and until they are amended, T10's awkward diagram conforms with the above rules.

Festus
28-11-2007, 16:45
O&G p.73
Dwarfs p.65

common sense, really ...

Revlid
28-11-2007, 17:26
O&G p.73
Dwarfs p.65

common sense, really ...

And Lizardmen p.whatevertheslannrulesareon

Anyone who insists that their opponent ranks up as in T10's diagram is a fool, a damned fool I say!

chivalrous
28-11-2007, 22:39
Refer to T10's answer above.

A model is a model whether its base is large or small. Counting the larger base size as more than 1 model will violate:
a) Shooting randomisation rules
b) Formation rules
c) Number of ranks rules

As the rules stands and until they are amended, T10's awkward diagram conforms with the above rules.

it may count as more than one model, however, in the case of a cavalry model (US2) in a unit of infantry (models are US1 individually) I see no reason why the rear end of the mount shouldn't take up space in the second rank.

I do however see where you are coming from, when, for example, you are dealing with a US 3 model on a monster base, where it may take up 4 model spaces (two in the first, two in the second) but not contribute as many model equivalents back to the unit strength.

chivalrous
28-11-2007, 22:45
Refer to T10's answer above.

A model is a model whether its base is large or small. Counting the larger base size as more than 1 model will violate:
a) Shooting randomisation rules
b) Formation rules
c) Number of ranks rules

As the rules stands and until they are amended, T10's awkward diagram conforms with the above rules.

it may count as more than one model, however, in the case of a cavalry model (US2) in a unit of infantry (models are US1 individually) I see no reason why the rear end of the mount shouldn't take up space in the second rank.

I do however see where you are coming from, when, for example, you are dealing with a US 3 model on a monster base, where it may take up 4 model spaces (two in the first, two in the second) but not contribute as many model equivalents back to the unit strength.

bluesky322
28-11-2007, 22:57
am i the only one that thinks the diagram looks like a clown face

Gazak Blacktoof
30-11-2007, 14:18
am i the only one that thinks the diagram looks like a clown face

Nope. Its also laughable.:p Really, who plays like that?

Chicago Slim
30-11-2007, 19:47
A model is a model whether its base is large or small. Counting the larger base size as more than 1 model will violate:
a) Shooting randomisation rules
b) Formation rules
c) Number of ranks rules


I know we've been over this all before, near unto death, but I don't recall how the common solution of using a second-rank spot for a cavalry model can affect shooting randomization rules. The way I figure it, randomization only happens if there are fewer than 5 rank and file models, in which case hits are distributed evenly (randomize remainder).

The other rules, we continue to disagree on interpretation (I still argue that the cavalry model IS a model in the second rank, as well as being a model in the first rank...)

So, to answer the original question, there's no single consensus, at least not on this forum (as you've already seen). As always, talk it out with your local mates, to sort out how you want to handle it-- that's better than what any of us can offer at this point.

WLBjork
30-11-2007, 20:45
it may count as more than one model, however, in the case of a cavalry model (US2) in a unit of infantry (models are US1 individually) I see no reason why the rear end of the mount shouldn't take up space in the second rank.

I do however see where you are coming from, when, for example, you are dealing with a US 3 model on a monster base, where it may take up 4 model spaces (two in the first, two in the second) but not contribute as many model equivalents back to the unit strength.

That's because GW fluffed the rules up.

If you read them, they only allow for 1 model per rank/file. They do not allow for 1 model to take up multiple ranks/files.

Remember, this is the Rules forum, and we primarily discuss the rules, and not necessarily Game As Played.

Gazak Blacktoof
01-12-2007, 00:07
Remember, this is the Rules forum, and we primarily discuss the rules, and not necessarily Game As Played.

Which can, at times, be extremely unhelpful and generally amusing in equal measure.

You'll find few, if any, people who will actually argue with you about a model taking up the space in a unit it actually displaces.