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unclejimbo827
27-11-2007, 05:48
The question occurred to me as I was painting some Cadian veterans. I was about to paint flecks of boltgun metal to represent scratched off paint, but then I realized I wasn't sure their vests were metal. What's flak armor made of?

Permanganate
27-11-2007, 06:00
Flak armor is made of flak. :)

Or not. Lexicanum describes it (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Flak_Armour) as being any one of several different materials.

Ward.
27-11-2007, 06:08
Download the necromunda rulebook, it says in the entry for them in the armor entry section, but I don't have access to it now.

folnjir
27-11-2007, 06:20
Download the necromunda rulebook, it says in the entry for them in the armor entry section, but I don't have access to it now.

Mine says "made from high-tensile padded fabric"

Burnthem
27-11-2007, 08:23
As is the answer for almost every question about the background - 'It varies'

One regiment would have Polymer and Ceramic body armour, much like modern armies, others would have exotic materials, such as the mirror armour used by the Vitrian Dragoons in the GG books.

More primitive Guard formations would use something more like plate armour, or chainmail, or if your Catchan, a smelly dirty vest :D

Paint them however you like, and make up fluff to justify it, you could say almost anything. Wood for example, maybe the planet your troops come from has a native hardwood tree that contains timber that is as hard as steel? Anything goes! (almost ;) )

RexTalon
27-11-2007, 09:27
What's flak armor made of?

Well, based in it's in-game rules... I'd say it's made out of last week's newspaper and a thin lining of hope. :(

Clockwork-Knight
27-11-2007, 12:44
Whatever it is made of, it's primary function is to provide protection from shrapnels and low-velocity projectiles. It must be light enough for the troop to walk in around without any encumbrance, and still be able to protect in some way.
It just happens that the many enemies of the Imperium may have weapons that could even atomize Space Marines in their power armours, but that isn't going to change the fact that it's better to equip your troops with something than nothing at all. :p

Ikkaan
27-11-2007, 13:38
Well...vanilla IG have a robust mix of ballistic cloth and armorplast pauldrons and chest armor. Itīs difficult to imagine how broken or damaged armorplast looks, but generally i would depict it like a cratered chip with visible fiber structure and a single bullet hole in it (or without the bullet hole for a survivor :D).

MrBigMr
27-11-2007, 13:51
I must depend. General issue, isn't the only issue. In the IG codex on carapace, it's either more flack armor, or heavy, rigid ferrous plate type of a thingy.

My Guard has metallic armor, so when I'm doing damage to it, it'll shot metal shine from under the paint. It just looks cool, so in cool vs. common sense, cool always wins.

RexTalon
27-11-2007, 19:55
Whatever it is made of, it's primary function is to provide protection from shrapnels and low-velocity projectiles. It must be light enough for the troop to walk in around without any encumbrance, and still be able to protect in some way.
It just happens that the many enemies of the Imperium may have weapons that could even atomize Space Marines in their power armours, but that isn't going to change the fact that it's better to equip your troops with something than nothing at all. :p

A year ago I was stationed in Korea and we all had to wear flak vests. We looked a LOT like the metal Cadian models. You're right about the purpose, but it sure was encumbering and after wearing it for a few minutes, I would have rather had nothing at all.

TitusAndronicus
27-11-2007, 20:04
The have the newer ceramic plates? In the old days it was rolled steel inserts and it REALLY sucked :) Only way I would have wanted to wear it was if I was driving a vehicle and could sit down, personally. And if it didn't have the chicken plate in it it was practically worthless. Haven't kept up wit the technology but I am betting it hasn't advanced all that much since then...

Kage2020
28-11-2007, 01:55
I find that, for consideration of the 40k universe at least, it's not about what it is made of, but rather what function it is mean to perform. In this case, it seems little more than, well, a bullet proof vest. At most military grade, at least in "real world" terms.

Kage

Agrip. Varenus Denter
28-11-2007, 04:43
My Guard has metallic armor, so when I'm doing damage to it, it'll shot metal shine from under the paint. It just looks cool, so in cool vs. common sense, cool always wins.

I used to do the same with mine... it's eye catching!

But I digress... I heard that Traitor Guard, for example, wear flak armor made from puppies. ;)

SV_Harlequin
28-11-2007, 04:59
Well...vanilla IG have a robust mix of ballistic cloth and armorplast pauldrons and chest armor. Itīs difficult to imagine how broken or damaged armorplast looks,
Probably like broken like Fibreglass.

zerachiel
28-11-2007, 05:55
But I digress... I heard that Traitor Guard, for example, wear flak armor made from puppies. ;)

And sadly, it's still just as (in?)effective as regular flak armour...

I'm starting to think my company makes their flak armour out of chainsaw factories, because it seems the only thing that they stop (and they stop these a LOT) are chainswords. I'm not sure how they do it, but Space Marines (any variety) charging down my Guardsmen with chainswords will not do much, one squad having tied up an Assault squad for 3 turns without casualties (eventually one guy died to a 4 instead of a 5 or 6, while the Space Marines got overran by the remaining 9), and the Chaos Marines have it even rougher...

Ikkaan
28-11-2007, 09:31
After reading a little bit in my brand new munitorium manual, the armor generally given to guardsmen is...ballistic cloth! Yep, thats it. Nothing hard enough to break, not even mentioning hardened plates (except in the case of cadian boots which are nicknamed "ankle breakers" because of their rigidity).

Stormtroopers or experienced officers may wear carapace, which consists of a combination of hardened and soft armor. Even higher ranking officers may even have refractor or conversion fields, but these are never issued to guardsmen.

Exceptions exist, but are discouraged by the munitiorium, as for example the reflective glass armor of the vitirian dragoons (I guess Vitria is a filthy rich planet) which is made by hand and therefore only fielded by the vitrians. It reportedly has special properties that deflect laser shots.

Other irregularities exist, but are minor thanks to the efforts of the munitorium to standardize equipment they are mostly folkore (i.e. the traditional mirror helmets of an obscure regiment which nicknamed the helmets "lasmagnet", but noone would insist on a cadian-pattern replacement because its a tradition thing).

Kasonic
28-11-2007, 09:54
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flak_jacket

Brother Siccarius
28-11-2007, 10:02
A wet paper sack.

You know...for a military organization that would expect to face lasguns, bolt weapons, and explosives, you would expect them to give something a little better than ballistic cloth... but then, these are the guys who sacrifice a couple regiments to scale a wall.

BrotherAdso
28-11-2007, 10:54
Huh. This begs the question then: can I use my Cadian models to represent carapace armored troops without conversion? I mean, they're obviously wearing more than ballistic cloth...

Oh, and Brother Siccarius -- Ballistic cloth seems to be the standard-minimum, no the encouraged maximum. It's better to get everyone up to at least that level, anyhow. Besides, futuristic quality ballisticloth will provide good protection against blasts, shrapnel, and unaimed fire -- which is likely to account for a lot of Guard casualties.

The Guard probably see it as a matter of efficient investment -- for X resources, you prevent 40% of casualties with ballisticloth. It's probably not worth it to invest 6X resources in order to prevent 60% of casualties...your expenditure of resources probably rises MUCH faster than the resulting battlefield effectiveness. Not to mention that they don't have the same attitude to human life as we do...

-Adso

-Adso

MrBigMr
28-11-2007, 13:20
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flak_jacket
Catachans have flak jackets, normal guard has armor. But although I'm infavour of 'hard' armor, I can live with the image of heavy kevlar vest on the troops. They're also pretty uncomfortable to fit with the Guard ideals.

My troops will still have metallic armor, as they have carapace. I have equiped them with extra bits (SM scout legs), so that they will look like they have better armor. And also give them a more high tech look.

And when it comes to flak, we (at least me an my friends) call crisp bread 'flak board'.

Hive Mind 33
28-11-2007, 13:26
I used to do the same with mine... it's eye catching!

But I digress... I heard that Traitor Guard, for example, wear flak armor made from puppies. ;)

I also heard they also use the broken hopes, and dreams of children.

MadDogMike
28-11-2007, 17:22
I also heard they also use the broken hopes, and dreams of children.

Why would they use just the dreams and hopes of children to make their armor when they can use the children themselves? After all, dreams don't scream amusingly when absorbing fire :D.

(Just wish I could find that picture of "baby armor" I saw somewhere...)

Zapherion
28-11-2007, 18:16
ive always seen flak armour as modern day kevlar plates put together as a vest, otherwise it may be difficult to fashion cadian shoulder pads out of ballistic cloth...unless of course your a blue peter presenter...
As others have mentioned, flak/kevlar armour is not designed to withstand a high velocity round, but rather riccochets, low velocity SMG/pistol rounds or shrapnel. To me, Carapace armour is more like proper armour.

While both seem rigid, carapace must be made out of a much more dense (not sure if thats the right word to use, but i cant think of anything else) material though it would also have to be equally light as storm troopers tend to wear more of it...you cant have an elite trooper walking around in a lead suit...

BrotherAdso
28-11-2007, 18:51
Back in 2nd Ed, there was a nice distinction between mesh armor and flak armor. Cheap-O flak armor gave 5+ against area of effect weapons, and only a 6+ against direct hits. Mesh armor gave a 5+ against all attacks, as did carapace armor. In a system where most weapons had a -1 ASM (at least!), this gave a good representation of 'ballistic cloth' versus 'armored vests' and 'giant metal plates'.

-Adso

jfrazell
28-11-2007, 20:07
Huh. This begs the question then: can I use my Cadian models to represent carapace armored troops without conversion? I mean, they're obviously wearing more than ballistic cloth...


Sure, just don't mix and max.

aka these Cadians are flak armor and these cadians are carapace armored.

Gaebriel
28-11-2007, 20:45
I would say Flak consists of a partial Kevlar covering with an occasional ceramic insert, while Carapace is covering ceramic plates over a Kevlar suit (substitute your personal choice of soft and hard armour materials).

Brother Siccarius
28-11-2007, 20:58
I would say Flak consists of a partial Kevlar covering with an occasional ceramic insert, while Carapace is covering ceramic plates over a Kevlar suit (substitute your personal choice of soft and hard armour materials).

Sounds like a mix between a fashion catalog and an insert in an issue of Guns and Ammo.

Tehkonrad
29-11-2007, 01:27
Maybe they are made of paper (which is made from said steel trees)

legio mortis
29-11-2007, 05:56
It makes sense that most of their armor is ballistic cloth, because you know what? It's what their clothes are made out of, and it covers the most area! The Manual, IIRC, also said that every guardsman will receive at least a flak jacket and a helmet.

RexTalon
29-11-2007, 06:47
The manual isn't just a description of Imperial equipment. It's also meant to boost the average imperial inductees faith in the equipment they were issued. It's partially propaganda. I'm sure that the manual says many things that wouldn't be entirely true in practice.


Sure, just don't mix and max.
aka these Cadians are flak armor and these cadians are carapace armored.
You could mix and match so long as it's obvious to your opponent. For example, paint the ones with carapace a different color.

Brother Siccarius: I think one of your sig links is broken.

Zapherion
29-11-2007, 09:36
but it shouldnt be a problem because if you take carapace armour for one unit, you have to take it for the rest of them

Ikkaan
29-11-2007, 10:00
Catachans have flak jackets, normal guard has armor. But although I'm infavour of 'hard' armor, I can live with the image of heavy kevlar vest on the troops. They're also pretty uncomfortable to fit with the Guard ideals.

Again, from the Munitorium Manual: Catachans eschew Flak completely and wear loose fitting shirts, their trust in the emperors armour should be applauded.

Regardless what anyones idea of Flak is, normal Guardsmen wear Flak, not carapace. Depending on the manufacturing plants idea of Flak it may look different. It may have something like Pauldrons or upper Body Amour that *looks* like Carapace...but in the harsh reality this was mounted there to boost the guardsmans morale. Optical addons made from plastic to give the armor a more martial look. So i see no problem in cadians with carapace-looking armor that is only flak in effect.

Gen.Steiner
29-11-2007, 12:30
Flak armour is future-kevlar. It takes many forms but is in most cases fibrous and artificial, any metals would be a plate insert a la the rolled steel referred to earlier.

Ikkaan - no, the pauldrons would also be made out of flak armour. Flak armour doesn't only protect the chest. The difference between it and carapace is primarily that carapace is much tougher.

MrBigMr
29-11-2007, 13:09
Again, from the Munitorium Manual: Catachans eschew Flak completely and wear loose fitting shirts, their trust in the emperors armour should be applauded.
From the Imperial Guard Codex under Jungle Fighters:
This specialisation will lead to a regiment to abandon bulky flak armour for a simple flak vest instead. All units taking this doctrine will reduce their Armour save from 5+ to 6+.

Gen.Steiner
29-11-2007, 13:13
So flak armour covers more than the flak vest. I take that to mean that the standard bulletproof vest we think of as body armour is in fact a Catachan-level of protection... makes sense.

BlackLegion
29-11-2007, 16:50
The material the flak armour of the Imperial Guardis made of is called "armaplast". It is flexible like cloth and stiffens upon impact. Thus it give more protection against area effect weapons than against other means of impact.

Carapace armour is made out of ceramite plates.

Warden
29-11-2007, 18:43
I see Flak vests like the ones issued during Vietnam.

http://www.olive-drab.com/od_soldiers_gear_body_armor_vietnam.php

Would like to see a test model (catachan) eith a GS one of these.

MrBigMr
29-11-2007, 18:53
Would like to see a test model (catachan) eith a GS one of these.
Catachan HW crew torsos. They're equiped with open vests that look a little like those.

Gen.Steiner
29-11-2007, 19:39
Would like to see a test model (catachan) eith a GS one of these.

No need. The Catachan frame comes with at least two bodies wearing just that style of body armour.