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Jonathan =I=
14-04-2005, 17:28
Iím just curios as to why Iíve heard that elder are not a competitive army?

salty
14-04-2005, 17:34
I think that Eldar ARE a competitive army; the only thing I can think of is the way they are exploited in tournaments by being turned into uber anti Space Marin armies, that rain starcannon death onto anything power armoured.

Salty :)

Anvils Hammer
14-04-2005, 17:40
most armys are competative if played right, some armys are difficult to play competativly eg foot slogging orks, but its still possible.

eldar are one of the most competative lists if you use them right, like all armys, they are powerful in the right hands

salty
14-04-2005, 17:45
Oh, I agree. I just find that many people exploit them to the fullest. I mean, come on, its a case of "HOW many starcannons? And they do WHAT to my Marines!"

I don't doubt that Marines can beat armies like this if played well, but nonetheless it is a bit, well... cheesy dont you think?

EDIT: And I hesitate to use the word cheesy.

Salty :)

Brimstone
14-04-2005, 17:49
Eldar are competitive but have lost a little bit IMO with the switch to 4th edition and without a new codex.

However the new codex is coming (eventually) and will restore them to being the most powerful psykers in the galaxy.

salty
14-04-2005, 17:50
Ah, but without good old Eldrad though ;)

Salty :)

hairyman
14-04-2005, 17:51
Well, if I was an eldar commander and I knew a whole load of marines were on the horizon, I'd stock up on starcannons....

...it's no more cheesy than, say, taking all scatter lasers (or heavy bolters) vs orks, and if you had an all starcannon army as an all-comers list I'd imagine you'd fall flat on your face at some point.

Anyway, I don't believe in the tooth fairy, santa claus, or cheese. :p

The Machine GoD
14-04-2005, 17:51
I expect to see more psychic powers in the new codex for them. They are very competative and can usually beat me up. I play many slower moving armies that get slaughtered.

salty
14-04-2005, 17:59
Anyway, I don't believe in the tooth fairy, santa claus, or cheese. :p

Not even if its VDR "100 boltguns on a Rhino" cheese?

On topic though, I hope they do make the Eldar really REALLY powerful (okay, not as powerful as the old SM Librarians... I don't want to lose all my army in Turn 1) as it is a major part of their fluff. I think they should be more focused on Psychic powers than anything else.

Salty :)

hairyman
14-04-2005, 18:02
Yeah, they do need more, better and cheaper psychic powers. I wouldn't want them too powerful either, though... as half the fun with eldar is playing them right. Get it wrong and you get slaughtered (might be why some people think they're not competitive?)

salty
14-04-2005, 18:10
Nah, thats why they're nearly extinct :D

Salty :)

5upr3m3 h4xx0rz
14-04-2005, 18:14
They should definitely be more powerful than SMurf librarians, though. And if eldritch storm makes a show again i nthe new dex it should be str5 because i dont know anyone who uses ut unless they are playing nids or guard.

salty
14-04-2005, 18:24
Thats true, it is kind of pointless against SM. Basically, I just hope they put more focus on psychic powers in the new 'Dex.

Salty :)

sigur
14-04-2005, 18:56
it's this typical thing GW did with 3rd edition...taking out everything except shooting and POWERFUL close combat and now they restore important things like vehicle rules and psy.

Maybe it's really like I thought: 3rd edition was just to lure new (young) players into the game.

They definitly have to (and will) make the Eldar the most powerful psykers in the universe again. The state as it is now is just a shame. Hey, maybe we'll see a psychic phase again in ~10 years. ;)

Brother Munro
14-04-2005, 19:14
The 3rd ed. Eldar could be competative, but were twinky as hell if you deliberately made them competative. 4th ed. has further pointed out the inherent flaws in the current Eldar Codex, which really needs redoing.

mostholycerebus
14-04-2005, 19:27
They are a finesse army that is difficult to use. They take too much time into learning them to be considered by most players, who would rather win easily with, say, Black Templars.

salty
14-04-2005, 19:55
Now a psychic phase again would be cool, but it might scare off any newer devotees, or deter WFB players from starting up (it might seem too much like a Magic phase to them).

Salty :)

Faust
14-04-2005, 20:05
The two things that need to be done IMO is make the Waveserpant have assult ramps like the Landraider. Would this make them that good really? Also they need a pyshic boost, perhaps something more along the lines of enhancing the troops or complicating other pyskers to use their pyshic powers?
Faust

hairyman
14-04-2005, 20:11
... make the Waveserpant have assult ramps like the Landraider. Would this make them that good really?


Yes.. it would make them that good and then some. A load of properly tooled up serprents full of banshees would be too much, and it would take a lot of the finesse out of playing eldar.

salty
14-04-2005, 20:13
I agree. I don't really like the Wave Serpent in general. Dunno why, I just never liked it. The Falcon though, now there is a model!

Salty :)

Black Ambience
14-04-2005, 21:13
As far as a psychic pahse goes - do we really need it? As it stands, psychic powers are present in every phase of the game, and some even before the game begins (unless I am enjoying some sort of long-term dream) and it's working fine.

They are adding that extra bit to a fair few armies now. Chaos gained a lot from improved psychics, as did the SM (hough SM powers are rightfully crude), Tyranids have their fair share of powers that work perfectly for them and the Eldar will go above and beyond when their hour comes 'round at last.



Eldar not being competative as it stands? From my experiences they are still pretty lethal - their combat troops can still hold their own against the likes of tooled-up Chosen and Terminators, their tanks can still be made almost untouchable and their firepower can still ruin any player's day. It's just requiring more finesse now than it ever has before. Quite appropriate really!

Imus
14-04-2005, 21:46
I will have to agree saying they are very competiative. The armies themselves like any army can be gd just the way you play them. But thats already been said. If you need an example look at the winner of this years 40k GT. I forget his name but he won last year and is italian. He used Eldar Ulthwe army. It was composed of 40-50 man seer council. I think it may of been 2, to have that many. 5 squads of 5 men with star cannons and 3 vipers with same thing. And something else but you get the idea they can be extremely competitive. It is true they should be the best psykers in the game but there shouldn't be so many of them, by this i mean troops and Wraith Lords. You just can't kill 3 of them in a game. You can but have to be lucky. They shuold really make the Wraith Lord a 0-1 choice of bump up the points cost really. Its just sick for the points. Anyway but they are competitive. Don't forget its not the way the army list is made it also relies on the player and sometimes a certain amount of luck from the dice!

Wraithbored
15-04-2005, 22:05
IMO as a pretty seasoned Eldar player I think they are very competitive, but you just need to put the proper unit into the proper situation(Horror scenario: Dark reapers assault 1 platoon of imps while the howling banshees attack a leman russ*winces*).

Now the mope weep and crying that came with 4th ed no more Wave Serpent assaulting hasn't hurt me much since I used a max. of 1. Now my army list is a tad beardy(1Avatar with a court which includes one of each exarchs,a 8 man squad of scorpions inc. exarch, 10 banshees inc. exarch in a wave serpent, 2 Vypers with ccm and armed with scatter laser and the other with a star cannon, 3 man reaper squad + exarch with fast shot, 6 fire dragons inc. exarch, 1 wraithlord /w bright lance and 1 Falcon /wccm) I admit. But my list has a lot of trouble vs. Imp guard with massed lascannons or a drop troop army. Everything else I can take on with no modifications to my list.

And I agree players using massed guardians, well read some fluff guys, also putting civilians on the lines(albeit trained well) IMO is just plain wrong when you have other elite troops more than willing to take to battle.

And in the new dex I really hope to see powerful manipulative in nature Eldar psychic powers.For example messing with opponents fire or movement. I'd leave teh big kaboom powers to Librarians and sorceres and unfortunate weirdboys.

As for the new dex I'm really hoping we Eldar players will loose the beardy tag and gain some repute(Maaaaaaaaaaaaaan will hell be frozing over anytime soon?!?!?!?).And I am confident GW will do a good job and make either every unit usefull or everything crappy just stay in character damn it! :D

worldshatterer
15-04-2005, 23:59
putting civilians in the lines is fluff correct, eldar are desperate and simply don't have enough aspect warriors to fulfil the missions necessary for survival of the species . even a guardian horde is fluff correct as the eldar use their high mobility to concentrate their forces and attack at enemy weak points . whats wrong is the shuricat, guardians need to be hanging at the back in cover, doing their best to survive, not rushing forwards to get their guns in range like soviet horde infantry .

Beefstick
17-04-2005, 04:49
They're probably not considered as much, because the codex is so old. They have not recieved any of the benefits of "codex creep", and since there hasn't been any new stuff out for a long time, nobody is excited to go out and build a new eldar army. All those old models just get put away in favor of a brand new Tau, Necron, Black Legion army. Every time a new codex comes out, everybody is really excited to go out and build that army. It will happen to eldar as soon as they get some shiny new toys.

Warp Zero
17-04-2005, 06:39
As an Eldar player I have a couple of extra thoughts to add.

When you talk of Eldar to a newcomer, we should make note of the differences between regular Codex Eldar and the Craftworld Eldar.

Its not that the Eldar can't be competitive, its that .... in order to be competitive, you gotta use them in ways that they were not intended. Or make up for a flaw in one area, but min/maxing or going cheezy in another area.

The Eldar are like a broken car where the shifter is stuck in reverse. Sure, it'll get you to the grocery store, but you gotta drive it backwards the whole way.

The only Eldar armies in my opinion that are consistantly competitive, are the Craftworld Ulthwe, Alaitoc, and Biel-Tan.

Saim-Hann is too unpredictable. Sometimes they win big, sometimes they lose big. And I have no experience with Iyanden. With them, all I can say that is they are expensive to collect, and most of your army is made up of old 2nd edition ugly minis.

Karhedron
17-04-2005, 08:24
It is possible (even easy) to build a very competative Eldar list. They have lots of very dangerous units and some good things going for them.

The problem with Eldar is that about a third of the entries in the codex are hopelessly underpowered or have stats that make no sense. Shining Spears and Dire Avengers are very rare in tournement armies and I am the only player I know who actually likes Warp Spiders (2 S6 shots per turn, what is not to like? :P).

The Eldar list was produced in a rush back in the early days of 3rd edition and suffered from a real lack of playesting. One of the biggest problems are shuriken catapults. When you basic troops have tin foil armour and a short ranged gun, it is no wonder that the Eldar are a dying race. The stats given to the shuriken catapult are not stats suitable for a gun being carried by (relatively) unskilled citizen militia. Shuricats would be awesome weapons to be carried by Marines but not by T3 5+ save troops.

Fragile troops only work in two ways. Either they need a decent range on their guns so they can hang back and harrass the enemy (eg fire warriors and IG) or they need to be fielded in a horde to overwhelm the enemy.

A horde approach is so wrong for a dying race that it is not funny. Guardians should come in squads of 5-10 and have much longer range guns. A short range and up to 20 in a squad means tuardian bomy way to use them well is the "Guardian bomb". Ie you rush the the squad up to the enemy as fast as possible (prefferably with Conceal and Fortune) and then try to blow them away with one huge salvo of shuricat fire (prefferably with Guide). You then hope that you have done enough damage to the enemy not to be assaulted in their turn since you are now standing within 12" of them.

In no way do Guardians fit in with the "finesse" approach to Eldar armies. Nor do they fit in with the "combined arms" approach that Gav Thorpe always witters about. Aspect Warriors are generally better off without Guardians. If you try to team the two units up, you end up with the Aspect Warriors baby sitting the Guardians rather than being supported by them.

The single biggest flaw in the Eldar army is the short range of the shuriken catapult. This problem is even worse in 4th edition since Rapid Fire weapons can now get as many shots as Shuricats at the same range when moving and longer range when stationary.

salty
17-04-2005, 09:13
I think that the Eldar combat units should be made more fragile. At the moment, the Eldar players I face never hesitate toi get their Banshees and Striking Scorpions into combat with anything other than my Ork Warboss. That just feels wrong to me, the Eldar are supposed to be dying out, why would they risk their best troops in such as fashion? If they were made just as good in combat, but either a little more expensive/a little more fragile this could be improved.

Salty :)

Shadow Weaver
17-04-2005, 10:08
I have played SMurfs & Space Wolves in the past, I am now playing Eldar. I hate the complaints of cheese and whines when you take the only weapon that hurts space marines ie Star Cannons.

I am trying to make a 1000pt conflict army, 80+% of my opponents will be Space Marines of some sort, or failing that will be 3+ armour (Tau battle suits, sisters of battle, Tyranid monstrous creatures, Necrons, Chaos). Of course I am wanting a few star Cannons.

That only leaves Orcs or Imp Guard. So there are 6 flamers in the army as well with some small storm squads. Sorry Ranting :(

I have come up with a small mobile army - Eldar are fragile, they therefore have to be very mobile, with 2 Wave Serpents and a Maxed out Falcon, 3 Vypers with Star Cannons 3 Storm Squads and 2 ranger squads.

They can all shoot 36" (except storm squads who are in transports that can) and are on the whole mobile enough to pick the fight where they want it to occur. Difficult to use - yes, fragile - yes (although their transports can last with some luck), competitive - yes, cheesey - GRRRRrrrrrrrrr.......

General_Xue
17-04-2005, 12:18
I've never seen an Eldar army get beaten in many, many games. I think they are waaay too overpowered, and whilst I would like them to be more psychic, they need to have a more balanced codex.

Stouty
17-04-2005, 13:37
I fdhuriken catapults had an 18" range i would find that an awful lot of my guardian problems would be fixed. Or perhaps getting to move in the assault phase like damned battle suits. They need to be able to fire and then avoid combat as the fluff would dictate.

Jonathan =I=
17-04-2005, 13:48
[QUOTE=Karhedron]
Shining Spears and Dire Avengers are very rare in tournement armies and I am the only player I know who actually likes Warp Spiders (2 S6 shots per turn, what is not to like? :P).[QUOTE]

I love Warp Spiders there one of the best units Elder have. You think Tau stealth suits are bad try taking on my 40 warp spiders :)

Creamy Goodness
17-04-2005, 13:51
Not even if its VDR "100 boltguns on a Rhino" cheese?

On topic though, I hope they do make the Eldar really REALLY powerful (okay, not as powerful as the old SM Librarians... I don't want to lose all my army in Turn 1) as it is a major part of their fluff. I think they should be more focused on Psychic powers than anything else.

Salty :)


Especially seeing as how their traditional MO (technological superiority) got swiped by the Tau.

Warp Zero
17-04-2005, 14:42
In no way do Guardians fit in with the "finesse" approach to Eldar armies. Nor do they fit in with the "combined arms" approach that Gav Thorpe always witters about. Aspect Warriors are generally better off without Guardians. If you try to team the two units up, you end up with the Aspect Warriors baby sitting the Guardians rather than being supported by them.

The single biggest flaw in the Eldar army is the short range of the shuriken catapult. This problem is even worse in 4th edition since Rapid Fire weapons can now get as many shots as Shuricats at the same range when moving and longer range when stationary.

I can see what Gav was trying to do. He wanted the Guardians to run up and soften up an enemy unit with shurikens. Then a HtH unit like Banshees or Scorpions to sweep in afterwards and finish the job before the Guardians got assaulted. Simple in theory but hard to pull off. Especially in 4th Edition.

The tactic relies on the HtH specialists to be near and on-hand within range to assault. If they footslog alongside the Guardians, they tend to get wittled down before they do their job. If you put them in transports, they can't assault that round anymore due to the new rules concerning closed top transport vehicles. Unless of course, you happen to park your transport within assault range the round before. What are the chances of that vehicle surviving till the next round so close to the enemy?

Anyways, you're right ... the Shuriken Catapult is the single biggest flaw in the Eldar army.


I think that the Eldar combat units should be made more fragile. At the moment, the Eldar players I face never hesitate toi get their Banshees and Striking Scorpions into combat with anything other than my Ork Warboss. That just feels wrong to me, the Eldar are supposed to be dying out, why would they risk their best troops in such as fashion? If they were made just as good in combat, but either a little more expensive/a little more fragile this could be improved.

The toughness of Banshees and Scorpions are fine. They don't need to be more fragile. Both are easy to wound. Scorpions last a bit longer due to their heavier armor, but they trade that for not having power weapons. Banshees have power weapons but less armor...and crappy strength. They don't do good against high toughness targets.


I've never seen an Eldar army get beaten in many, many games. I think they are waaay too overpowered, and whilst I would like them to be more psychic, they need to have a more balanced codex.

Yes, I agree they need a balanced codex. But as far as the rarity of Eldar being beaten, I have to disagree. At my local store, I've seen them beaten many times. I play them and my win record isn't that great. At best, I only win half the time. I do okay against Marines and Tyranid. I have a hard bloody fight with Tau. Against my friend's Iron Warriors, I either do well or get pasted. I find the Eldar effectiveness way too random.

salty
17-04-2005, 15:31
Especially seeing as how their traditional MO (technological superiority) got swiped by the Tau.

Exactly :D

The Tau are now 40k's ultra shooty army, but they don't have any psychic powers (coz they're too weedy and young). So the Eldar need to be made more distinctive from the Tau, and this would be easily achieved by making them the most psychic army in the game (especially as the Nids are looking like quite a psychic force too).

Salty :)

Lord_Sanguinius
17-04-2005, 18:04
i think its sort of balanced, they make up for CC weakness with their amazing weapons.

Kzer-Za
17-04-2005, 19:41
Well...
The old space marines 'dex had one real psychic power, and now they have 6... The Farseers and Warlocks should then at least have double that each, since their current dex had 4 times what the old SMurf dex had...

The Eldar are the most knowledgeable, technologically advanced (s***w tau!) and psychic race... Let us bring that back!

You might instead limit the amount of powers they can have, keeping with the fluff that to avoid a second Fall the Eldar are required to focus their attention on a single aspect... Thus they get BETTER and more varied Psychic powers, but have to focus on fewer... One for each warlock and maximum 2 for a farseer or something... That would balance things out if there are many nifty new powers and limit "cheesy" combos...

As mentioned earlier the manipulative side of the Eldar could be reinforced giving them Deciever like powers of deception...

One of my beefs with the Eldar are as people have mentioned the shuricat, being an incredibly short-ranged weapon... This are if rumours are true to be amended by making them pinning, so that when you actually have closed with the enemy you can keep his head down while withering flying discs of doom slice his troops to bits...

My other, and perhaps main beef is that the guardian with their mesh armour have a 5+ save which makes sure that almost every basic weapon in the game penetrate it, while Dire Avengers who ALSO USES MESH ARMOUR gets a 4+ save...
GIVE THE GUARDIANS THEIR OVERDUE 4+ SAVE!!
This would allow them some protection from the Bolter death they suffer, while also allowing them to use their fleet rules, keeping with the fluff of their grace and agility...
They may increase their points instead, but make them better! 10-11 points a piece for instance...

I also would like the guardians to be generic with a choice to make them "stormy" or "defender" by choosing shuricat or pistol and sword, and give the one guardian option all the options both of the units have today... Thus "special weapons" and/or anti-grav weapons capabilities for everyone!

The Dire Avengers being better trained than the guardians should have 18" range and better BS to represent them being essentially guardians who've become shuricat marksmen due to training...

Shining Spears need some serious amending (waaay lover cost or more bang for the bucks) and the warp spiders should have AP5 weaponry or something...

The Avatar should perhaps double it's cost and been made into something like a god (although not to C'tan stats) I would like to see the wailing doom giving him the sustained assault power (Each attack that hits grants another attack) because he can be held back by sacrificing cheap and numerous units because of his limited number of attacks... This ability would give him the chance to "cleave" through grotlings and conscripts like he should! He also should have a 3+ normal save and be made a 0-1 special character which requires the opponents conscent, because nowadays every eldar has and uses the avatar and it is something only brought forth in the most dire needs....
Any changes at all would most likely be welcome, but remove the 80 points cheap version... I mean... They fluffwise sacrifice their exarches to awaken it, and I'd mostly rather have the exarch!

Wraithlords are supposed to get a major increase in points rather than being decreased in stats and I like that because the eldar needs somthing durable besides their armies of T3 "space elves"...

Another thing is that when the Tau can make targetting equipment for their tanks to increase their BS to 4 then by all that is holy the Eldar should be able to at least duplicate it!

(c) this has been a Kzer-Za rant...

Kzer-Za

General_Xue
17-04-2005, 20:54
i think its sort of balanced, they make up for CC weakness with their amazing weapons.

CC weakness? I beg to differ - an I6 Exarch with sustained assault and a a power weapon? He wipes the floor with 16 Khorne Berzkers...

Faust
17-04-2005, 22:04
@ General_Xue

Yes Eldar do have a weakness to CC. As you mentioned above, that was a really impressive roll that your friend has made. Also a swooping hawk exarch killing 16 Khorne berserkers is something I read about in the fluff. Eldar do have a CC weakness. I am not going to shove the burden of truth onto you like most other people do on forums but rather let me explain my point.
Eldar really have 3 dedicated CC squads

Banshees a dedicated CC squad that has all power weapons and the Exarch with most likely a Exicutioner. The problem with this squad is that they really shine with high points units in power armor. Main problem is that all those shiny pricey units are WS 4 and T 4. This means 4's to hit and 5's to wound for the normal banshee, not a good prospect. ( soften them up with Star Cannons)

Scorpions. The most durable of the CC squads that Eldar have at their disposal. 3+ armor save is really nice in addition to the Mandiblasters and being S 4 not to mention. They have the same drawback that banshees have, T 3 and in addition to this not being able to fleet of foot.

Storm Guardians. These little guys shine brightly when you give them haywire grenades and let them go out and find a tank. They are at a disadvantage that you must give them a Warlock with Enhance to make them worth their while against other armies. Also they have the worst save out of all three that I have mentioned here, that being a 5+

Eldar have squads that can deal with other squads the main thing about Eldar is that you cannot go head strong into battles and expect to win. Shoot squads then wipe them with your CC oriented squads.
Faust

worldshatterer
17-04-2005, 22:30
The eldar do not fight as casually as other races, they only fight hwe nthey absolutely have to . This is why it IS appropriate to field guardians and an Avatar in every game, it represents the extreme measures eldar have to go to in order to field an effective fighting force .

Lyonator
17-04-2005, 22:31
meh....
personally, I dont mind the shuricat... its easy enough to simply avoid using it altogether...

my main problem with the Eldar codex is how barren the wargear selection is...
come on, no power weapons?
its one thing to have an alternate CC weapon to set the army apart, but to not have the option for a power weapon, and being stuck with either a basic CCW, or a weapon that is terrible against PA, is just lame.

lack of good/varied wargear, along with dead weight units <guardian defenders, jetbikers, arguably shining spears, Fire prisms>, and vehicles stuck at BS3...
<they totally need to have a unit upgrade for guardians, representing former apect warriors, who have reverted to a civilian path, so have BS and/or WS4... especially for vehicles.... "Aspect crewmen X points">

Brushmonkey
17-04-2005, 22:33
Just 3 CC sqds? Um, I think you've missed a few.

Tooled Farseer Squad: A Farseer and Warlocks with Witchblades is a fearsome prospect in CC. Not as nifty as a Council, but still able to hold it's own until further troops arrive.

Wraithlord: Only got S4? Shame. Your unit is about to die. Only got T4? So is your character. Wraithlords are an utter menace in H2H.

Wraithguard: A suprising enrt in the CC stakes, but their durability and S5 has got them through mant a scrap. Just don't wander them into units with power weapons of any kind though.

So there are 6 units that the Eldar can use in CC already. This doesn't even include the Exarch delivery system squads!

Inquisitor Engel
17-04-2005, 22:39
They are at a disadvantage that you must give them a Warlock with Enhance to make them worth their while against other armies.
You're kidding right?

Enhance makes most people get really, really confused. They'll ignore Guardian Squads in favour of targeting things that pose a bigger threat, but the look on their face when WS 4 Guardians (Hitting on 4's against Marines AND Terminators) throwing down sixty possible attacks, is priceless.

Oh, and very little survives the number of attacks 20 Storm Guardians can bring to bear.

Faust
18-04-2005, 01:30
@ brushmonkey

I was only talking about the squads that are CC oriented, I wasnt not going to make every squad that the Eldar have to make them into CC oriented. And the WraithLord can be CC oriented, but usually most squads have a way to deal with the 'broken' wraithlord (sarcasm here). If you wanted Dire Avengers to be a CC squad you could very well make them that way. And the other squads/every unit in the game can be a Exarch/Veteran Delivery system if you wished them to be. Also like you stated with the wraith guard stay away from power weapons/fists, most squads that they are going to be tied up with will have something to the likes of that. You must remember we play not HeroHammer but rather VeteranHammer now.

@Inquisitor Engel
Yes it is indeed very surprising when you get all 20 of those Guardians into hand to hand combat and not take any loses, I must congratulate on that feat. Also they are only WS 3 in standard Eldar lists. How is Enhance a confusing power? And I dont understand your point of me kidding about Storm Guardians needing the warlock with enhance, it makes them great against things that they cannot normally hurt, given the warlock has a witchblade. I mean WS 4 vs. WS 3 is not a good fight when you are the WS 3. ( As Storm Guardians vs. Marines). Also I find that Storm Guardians are ideal in a wave serpant rather foot sloggin.
Faust