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Alathir
27-11-2007, 08:47
My question is simple. Do items that nulify the magical properties of magic weapons nulify such things as the Wight Blades of Grave Guard or Tomb Blades of Tomb Guard? So that they no longer count as magical?

Thanks in advance.

Flypaper
27-11-2007, 09:41
Good question. I compared the wording of Law of Gold vs. Tomb/Wight Blades, and the crux seems to be whether you believe units carry an infinite supply of hand weapons or not.

It seems to me that there's no disputing that casting Law of Gold on a Tomb Guard unit will negate one model's weapon. However, the RAW for Tomb Blades states that any mundane weapon used by the model automatically gets the magical+KB bonus, so presumably (as there's no provision for "completely disarming" a model) the TG just whips out a fresh one! The same would go for Vaul's Unmaking/the Ring of Corin, since the only qualitative difference is that the caster gets to pick which item is affected.

...But as we all know, the reason you're asking is the Talisman of Saphery, right? ;)

Basically, the item's a mess. If this were Magic: the Gathering, I'd tell you that the two replacement effects are applied in timestamp order - so the unit has a hand weapon, then the Tomb Blades rule makes it magical, and then the Talisman makes it mundane again - but GW doesn't template properly or have a Comprehensive Rulebook, so in this context it's just a non-authoritative guess. :cool:

DeathlessDraich
27-11-2007, 10:09
Yes, Wight Blades, Tomb blades etc are *magic weapons* and will be affected by any item which affects magic weapons. - Vaul's Unmaking etc

Forest Spirits and Spites, Daemons, Ethereals and most Skaven shooting are *magical attacks* and are not affected.
Hail of Doom, Iron back Boar etc are not magical weapons but are Enchanted and will not be affected - some players will dispute this.

Atrahasis
27-11-2007, 10:33
There's no reason to believe from the tomb/grave blade description that the Killing Blow aspect has anything to do with them being magical weapons.

Gazak Blacktoof
27-11-2007, 10:55
Indeed. Though there is an implication that the weapon is responsible for the killing blow rule.

1. The weapons are referred to as cursed in the background text

2. When an icon bearer swaps his tomb blade for a magic weapon he looses the killing blow ability afforded to him by the tomb blade.

Alathir
27-11-2007, 11:11
There's no reason to believe from the tomb/grave blade description that the Killing Blow aspect has anything to do with them being magical weapons.

Okay, but do they then count as mundane weapons with killing blow?

Festus
27-11-2007, 11:18
Correct

FEstus

M_M
28-11-2007, 13:10
it specifically says under law of gold, magic items, and I believe(might be wrong) wight blades only count the attacks as magical not the weapons

logan054
28-11-2007, 18:47
Actually after having a read of the white blades rule it says nothing about magical attacks, what it says is that any weapon carried by a white counts as a magical weapon and has the killing blow special rule. I always thought it just gave them magical attacks, this is a very different thing, i think such things like vauls unmaking, chaos runeshield would actually work against white blades (and thus negate the killing blow).

I think this is a fast one undead players have been pulling for a long time.

Atrahasis
28-11-2007, 19:12
No logan, they are magical weapons which "in addition" grant killing blow. The Killing Blow is not necessarily a "magical" property of the weapons.

logan054
28-11-2007, 19:22
thanks for proving my my point, its a magical weapon which in addition grants killing blow, i think its clear the weapon grants to killing blow and not the white and thus chaos runeshield works :) . I think the key is in addition grants killing blow, could have been worded so differently (such as white also have the killing blow special rule). Also note tomb blade have the exact same wording :)

Chiungalla
28-11-2007, 19:32
No logan, they are magical weapons which "in addition" grant killing blow. The Killing Blow is not necessarily a "magical" property of the weapons.

You are wrong, at least for the Talisman of Saphery.
The Talisman of Saphery turns them into a normal handweapons.
Handweapons don't give killing blow.

Atrahasis
28-11-2007, 19:34
Sigh.

Vaul's unmaking negates the magical properties of the targeted item. Killing Blow is not a magical property and is thus not negated.

Chiungalla : any weapon carried by a tomb/grave guard has killing blow, whether it is a hand weapon or not.

logan054
28-11-2007, 19:36
He is certainly wrong with chaos runeshield :)

The chaos runeshield is treated as a normal shield. It also negates the power of any magical weapons carried by the models in base to base - treat them as a ordinary non magical weapons of their types

The killing blow is given to the weapon which is a magical weapon :) glad i read this topic now, gona start using that again me thinks :) sadly however i believe he is right about vaul unmaking

Chiungalla
28-11-2007, 20:04
Chiungalla : any weapon carried by a tomb/grave guard has killing blow, whether it is a hand weapon or not.

Yes, as long it is a tomb blade.
But it isn't a tomb blade any more, when under the effect of the Talisman.
It's a normal handweapon when under the effect of the Talisman.
No tomb blade, no killing blow.

Atrahasis
28-11-2007, 20:13
"Tomb Blade" is a special rule and not a weapon type.

WLBjork
28-11-2007, 20:31
Not sure on Tomb blades, but IIRC the rules for Wight Blades have 2 sentences. The first gives the weapon it's magical capabilities and the second gives the weapon the KB ability.

In that case negating the magical capabilites has no effect whatsoever on KB.

logan054
28-11-2007, 21:23
Tomb blade and white blade are the same thing, the killing blow is given to weapon not the tomb guard, my example, the runshield negates the rules of the weapon, the killing blow becomes a rule for the weapon, anything that negates the special rules of weapons negates the killing blow (unless it say magic items, which in my example it dosnt). Tomb blades/white blades being a weapon type has or not has nothing to do with this.

if the white blade didnt make the weapon a magical weapon then things such as chaos runeshield would have no effect (i use runeshield as im a chaos player). Of course by the logic i see here you could say if you had a magical weapon which did D3 wounds then it will still do D3 wounds but just be a mundane weapon.

Atrahasis
28-11-2007, 21:28
Yes, it counts as a hand weapon. Hand weapons in the hands of a tomb/grave guard have killing blow whether they are magical or not.

knightwire
28-11-2007, 21:37
Sigh.

Vaul's unmaking negates the magical properties of the targeted item. Killing Blow is not a magical property and is thus not negated.

The ToS negates all special effects of a magical weapon in base contact (not magical effects) I think was his point. Killing Blow, whether conected to the magic of the weapon or not, will be lost with the ToS.

As for Vaul's Unmaking there an interesting question I have Atrahasis. VU doesn't say that the item becomes a normal one of it's type. The item for all practical purposes is gone? If so how would the Wight or Tomb Guard retain Killing Blow? The rule does not say any weapon they pick up, it says the weapon they have of any type correct?

logan054
28-11-2007, 21:38
no its a magical weapon with killing blow, rule of magical weapons are negated, the rules states the weapon gains the rule and not white, these rules are added to the weapon at the same time and not one after the after, seeing as these are canceled at the time time the killing blow is not then added again. At the end of the day white blade is a single rule and you spliting it into two rules.

@knightwire - well i think the thing is Vauls now that i think about is that it effect items rather than weapons, tomb blades arn't items however i think you make a valid point with retaining the killing blow otherwise you go into the realm of whites picking up rocks and giving them killing blow and throwing stones at people which grant killing blow.

Atrahasis
28-11-2007, 22:40
Vaul's specifically removes the magical properties of items. Killing Blow is not a magical property of the item. Vaul's will also only do so to one such item in the unit.

txamil
28-11-2007, 23:30
On what grounds are you saying killing blow is not a property of the item?

Is it killing blow listed under the weapon or the unit? If you change weapons does a wight character lose killing blow?

Atrahasis
28-11-2007, 23:32
IT IS A PROPERTY OF THE ITEM. HOWEVER VAUL'S ONLY REMOVES MAGICAL PROPERTIES, NOT ALL PROPERTIES.

Now, have you read it this time, or do I have to repeat myself again?

logan054
28-11-2007, 23:39
So it a magical weapon with mundane properties? no, its a single rule thats creates a magical weapon with killing blow, i dont know the exact wording of vauls unmaking but i thought that could be used only on items which i would have to say white blades are not and im guessing you can only do it on one.

Atrahasis
29-11-2007, 00:04
There is no such thing as a "Tomb Blade".

Tomb Blade is a special rule which applies to Tomb Guard and makes all of their weapons magical. It also grants them killing blow. Making their magical weapons mundane does not affect their killing blow.

logan054
29-11-2007, 00:13
Erm yes it does, it one special rule, not two, the whole special rule is that it gives them a magical weapon with killing blow, the killing blow is granted to the weapon, as i have explained, items such as the Chaos runeshield rules negates the rules of the weapon.

Any weapon carried by a wight counts as a magical weapon (but all the normal rules still apply). The weapon also has the killing blow special rule. Note this rule does not apply to any magical weapon the wight carries

theunwantedbeing
29-11-2007, 00:20
"any normal weapon carried by a tomb guard or icon bearer counts as a magic weapon(but all the normal rules for that weapon still apply).The weapon also has the killing blow special rule"

Seems they are magical weapons and that killing blow is a property of that magical weapon. Plus it's not an inherent ability as otherwise they would get the killing blow special rule with magical weapons they take ,eg. sword of might wont have the killing blow rule.

The same wording is true for the wight blades(although the icon bearer bit is different of course....)

Although how vauls unmaking would work on a unit would be very odd.....
You could feasably negate the magical effect of say a unit champion, but against the unit it wouldnt make a difference unless there was only 1 model left.

You can negate the killing blow and magical effect of a wight blade or tomb guard blade then.But it'll still retain its mundane properties, and using it on a single weapon in a unit is going to have no real effect.

logan054
29-11-2007, 00:28
I dont think Vauls would work on it as it isnt a item theunwantedbeing (sadly :( ) however this certainly makes a massive difference to army selection with facing VC's and TK

Atrahasis
29-11-2007, 00:33
Erm yes it does, it one special rule, not two, the whole special rule is that it gives them a magical weapon with killing blow, the killing blow is granted to the weapon, as i have explained, items such as the Chaos runeshield rules negates the rules of the weapon.

Any weapon carried by a wight counts as a magical weapon (but all the normal rules still apply). The weapon also has the killing blow special rule. Note this rule does not apply to any magical weapon the wight carries

Killing Blow is NOT a magical property of the item.

The weapons are magical. They ALSO have killing blow. ALSO implies SEPARATE.

logan054
29-11-2007, 00:47
It implies nothing of the sort, it is not listed under a separate rule, so basically you, to sum it up, your argument is that because it has a fullstop its a separate rule, man thats some pretty good logic, i guess i had better reread the rule book, that has alot of fullstops in it ;)

Jonke
29-11-2007, 01:00
If successfully cast, the owner of the unit must reveal to the caster all the magic items in the unit. The caster then chooses one of them to be nullified. This item loses all of its magical properties. Items like hand weapon ... will become 'mundane' items of the same type

So the whight/tomb blade becomes a hand weapon, which by the wights special rule counts as a magic weapon with killing blow. I.e. no effect.

theunwantedbeing
29-11-2007, 01:04
The weapon counts as a magical weapon (cos it says it does.....) and the weapon has the killing blow ability (again it says it has....).
Therfore it can be negated by vauls unmaking.

Although its a pretty worthless thing to try as you can fall back to your other weapon.
eg. lance gets negated (still a lance unless its destroyed) so you can switch to your hand weapon that still grants killing blow.

Against units your just destroying 1 weapon out of the unit full of weapons....so it has no effect unless the unit is really tiny.

But the weapon then becomes magical again, as per the rules.
Unless its destroyed of course.

Palatine Katinka
29-11-2007, 01:59
As I read it, Vaul's Unmaking only works on 'magic items' not anything that is magical. Wight/Tomb Blades are magical weapons not magic weapons. A small but important difference, the only weapons that are affected by Vaul's Unmaking are Magic Weapons from the magic item lists in the armybooks/rulebook.

On the other hand, the Talisman of Saphery affects all magical weapons (which includes Magic Weapons and weapons that grant magical attacks) and cancels any "special effects" and renders the weapon a normal weapon of its type. To me, this suggests it turns Wight/Tomb Blades into regular normal mundane weapons.

Chiungalla
29-11-2007, 05:41
If you go into a warhammer game with the same degree of rules lawyering, you will not finish it within years.

And the rules of the wights does not state, that every weapon they carry becomes magical and gets killing blow, but only that every weapon they carry is magical and has killing blow.

There is no evidence, that if they loose this this abilities, they will get it back.

logan054
29-11-2007, 06:06
@Chiungalla - so true, EvC is bad enough ;) (j/k)

I was on carpe and saw someone say something abit wierd claiming that wights are immune to things such as the runeshield, his answer was..


See: count as. It does not say any weapon carried by a wight is a magic weapon now does it? no, it only count as one.

not surprised i guess being a VC forum and all...

WLBjork
29-11-2007, 08:27
"any normal weapon carried by a tomb guard or icon bearer counts as a magic weapon(but all the normal rules for that weapon still apply).The weapon also has the killing blow special rule"

Thanks for the confirmation theunwantedbeing.

There are 2 sentences. The two properties are independent not interdependent.

Chiungalla
29-11-2007, 08:31
No they are not. It is one rule.

Festus
29-11-2007, 08:57
How insightful,

you will soon start to say

*are so*
*are not**are so*
*are not**are so*
*are not**are so*
*are not**are so*
*are not*
repeat ad nauseam.

The weapons count as magical weapons. This is one rule.
The weapons cause KB. This is another rule.

Only one of those can be nullified. Guess which one.

Festus

EvC
29-11-2007, 10:14
The wording has always been a bit funny to me. To simplify it, in my mind "Wight Blades" has been a "fighting style" rather than a magical weapon- the Wight picks up the Wight Blade, it glows with magic. But when he fights with it, he remembers his ancient fighting techniques and can kill a man with a single swipe. That sort of thing. But it's obviously quite unclear... imagine if a magic weapon stated "The Sword of Doom gives +1 Strength. The bearer also fights with Killing Blow.", you'd agree that the Killing Blow part is a magical property then...

Atrahasis
29-11-2007, 12:06
Yes EvC, but that's an entirely different situation and so naturally has a different result.

knightwire
29-11-2007, 14:56
Vaul's specifically removes the magical properties of items. Killing Blow is not a magical property of the item. Vaul's will also only do so to one such item in the unit.

I withdraw my questions about Vaul's. I was looking at a 6th Edition PDF at work when I asked them and was assuming the wording was the same for 7th. When I got home and looked at the new book Vaul's is worded differently and extremely clear that it removes magical properties and the item then is a normal of it's type.

And while I doubt Killing Blow wasn't intented to be a magical property... it's pretty hard to argue with your interpretation as it's RAW. (Not that anyone would use on Vaul's on Grave/Tomb Guard to get the blades anyway.) :)

Red_Duke
29-11-2007, 15:28
wouldnt it only work on a single one at a time though? i was under the impression that Vauls Unmaking nullified a single magic item. Given that in the Case of TK and BN's, all of their weapons count as wight blades - be they hand weapons, lances, or halberds that would be an awfully large number of spells required to give them all standard weapons...

Anyway, who knows? maybe in their case it will be resolved in the new book when it comes out around march ;)

knightwire
29-11-2007, 15:56
Yep... it would only take one. I suppose, if it worked, you could take the Champion's blade. But it doesn't... :)

So take the Talismen of Saphery and get three instead.

Atrahasis
29-11-2007, 16:11
The Talisman of Saphery has no effect on Tomb/Wight blades. It renders magical weapons into mundane counterparts, and any mundane weapon in the hands of a Wight/Tomb Guard grants Killing Blow.

Chiungalla
29-11-2007, 16:33
The weapons count as magical weapons. This is one rule.The weapons cause KB. This is another rule.

Cool, this view will work for every magic weapon, so the Talisman in useless.

The part that the weapon is magical, and the part with the rules for the magic weapon, are allways in two different sentences.

And no, that are not two different rules, because both together are the rule "Tomb Blades".

DDogwood
29-11-2007, 16:36
Cool, this view will work for every magic weapon, so the Talisman in useless.

The part that the weapon is magical, and the part with the rules for the magic weapon, are allways in two different sentences.

The question is whether Killing Blow is a feature of the weapon, or a feature of the Wight holding the weapon, not the semantics of how the rule is written. I don't think that the answer is clear either way, hopefully GW will clarify how it's supposed to work.

Nice try though.

knightwire
29-11-2007, 16:38
The Talisman of Saphery has no effect on Tomb/Wight blades. It renders magical weapons into mundane counterparts, and any mundane weapon in the hands of a Wight/Tomb Guard grants Killing Blow.

The magical weapons of enemy models will have no special effects whilst they are in base contact with the bearerof the talisman. Treat the magical one as a normal of it's type...


Killing Blow is a special effect on a weapon that also happens to be magical. The first sentence removes all the special effects, magical or not. The second sentence then tells you it should become a mundane. Two effects, both are applied.

Red_Duke
29-11-2007, 16:46
Hmm, just double checked the rulebook and it states for Wight Blades "Any normal weapon carried by a wight counts as a magic weapon (but all the normal rules for that weapon still apply). The Weapon also has the killing blow special rule.

The two ARE linked for starters, as it goes on to note that a Wight Lord given a magic weapon does NOT get the KB ability he would get from his wight blade. (so the ability is linked to the weapon, and not to the model, such as in the case of executioners for instance)

Secondly though, to me this states that ANY weapon they use becomes a wight blade, so given that vauls unmaking changes it into a standard version, it wouldnt work, as it would change straight back.

However for the Talisman of Sapphery, i think it WOULD negate all the abilities of the wight blades (i.e. KB and magical) It states the Wight Blade counts as a magical weapon, so if the talisman nullifies magic stuff in base contact, they would simply count as their standard weapons imo.

logan054
29-11-2007, 18:18
How insightful,

you will soon start to say

*are so*
*are not**are so*
*are not**are so*
*are not**are so*
*are not**are so*
*are not*
repeat ad nauseam.

The weapons count as magical weapons. This is one rule.
The weapons cause KB. This is another rule.

Only one of those can be nullified. Guess which one.

Festus

Wight blade is the rule, having a magical weapon with killing blow is the effect of the rule, the example of Chaos runeshield negates the power of the magical weapon, being a magical weapon is not the power, thats what it is. The killing blow is the rule given to the weapon and not the wight himself and thus the killing blow is negated as its a rule of the magical weapon.

These are not two separate rules, look at ghouls for example of how separate rules are written.

txamil
29-11-2007, 19:45
The question is whether Killing Blow is a feature of the weapon, or a feature of the Wight holding the weapon, not the semantics of how the rule is written. I don't think that the answer is clear either way, hopefully GW will clarify how it's supposed to work.

Nice try though.

It doesn't take massive powers in deduction to realize it is the blade not the model that has killing blow. Why would a hero lose the killing blow when he takes a different magical weapon?!?

The only question left is whether the killing blow is the effect or part and parcel of being magical, or if comes mysteriously from some other power within the blade. a power that is just like magic, but you know, not.

Gazak Blacktoof
29-11-2007, 20:15
Yep. They're cursed blades.

There's not much in it between the rules arguments so I'd go with them effectively carrying magic weapons (as per characters) which have the killing blow special rule. Which IS pretty much what the rule says.

The Clairvoyant
29-11-2007, 20:32
The way i interpret the rules is as follows:

If an item or spell negates the magical properties of the opponent, then it does just that - the wight blade counts as a non-magical weapon and loses its killing blow.

If an item or spell targets a *magic item* and stops it working or whatever, then a wight blade is unaffected. Wight blades are not magic items.

logan054
30-11-2007, 23:59
I think "The Clairvoyant" has got it spot on but i guess this is a issue that will be never resolved as certain claim its two separate rules (when it clearly isnt).

WLBjork
01-12-2007, 10:25
I think "The Clairvoyant" has got it spot on but i guess this is a issue that will be never resolved as certain claim its two separate rules (when it clearly isnt).

Your opinion.

In point of fact, a similar case resolved for 40K was ruled the same way Atrahasis, Festus and myself (can't remember if there are others) are arguing.

logan054
01-12-2007, 18:59
yeah i know thats my opinion, its The Clairvoyant clearly, Gazak Blacktoof, txamil, Red_Duke, knightwire, DDogwood, and thats just the names i picked from posts shown on the post reply page.

You have Atrahasis going on about intent of the rule yet in every other rules topic i see him go on about raw, funny that (and i wonder if he makes beast herds rank up 4 or 5 wide against single models).

Atrahasis
01-12-2007, 19:34
I haven't once argued from intent (in this thread).

knightwire
01-12-2007, 21:08
yeah i know thats my opinion, its The Clairvoyant clearly, Gazak Blacktoof, txamil, Red_Duke, knightwire, DDogwood, and thats just the names i picked from posts shown on the post reply page.

You have Atrahasis going on about intent of the rule yet in every other rules topic i see him go on about raw, funny that (and i wonder if he makes beast herds rank up 4 or 5 wide against single models).

For the record I can understand Atrahasis' line of thinking on the RAW effect of Wight Blades and Vaul's. If I were playing a game against him I would definately concede the point. The difference of my opinion soley lies with the Talisman of Saphery.

In either case Atrahasis has never appealed to intent so I'm a little confused by your statement. Can you elaborate?

Palatine Katinka
01-12-2007, 21:23
I'm still of the opinion that Vaul's Unmaking only works on magic items and Wight Blades aren't magic items. Wight Blades cannot, for example, be bought as part of a character's magic item allowance. A Wight Lord with the Battle Standard may have a Magic Banner, if he does he cannot have any other magic items but he does not lose his Wight Blade.

logan054
01-12-2007, 22:23
I haven't once argued from intent (in this thread).

Thought you had, my mistake, ahh well, atleast i can admit.

Gazak Blacktoof
02-12-2007, 00:00
I'm still of the opinion that Vaul's Unmaking only works on magic items and Wight Blades aren't magic items.

Yep, Clairvoyant's post beneath mine is probably the best deffinition of the way the rule works/ should work etc etc.

FatOlaf
05-12-2007, 15:59
There is no such thing as a "Tomb Blade".
Tomb Blade is a special rule which applies to Tomb Guard and makes all of their weapons magical. It also grants them killing blow. Making their magical weapons mundane does not affect their killing blow.

I agree


How insightful,

you will soon start to say

*are so*
*are not**are so*
*are not**are so*
*are not**are so*
*are not**are so*
*are not*
repeat ad nauseam.

The weapons count as magical weapons. This is one rule.
The weapons cause KB. This is another rule.

Only one of those can be nullified. Guess which one.

Festus

This is what is happening on the Carpe Thread of the same topic.

Can we then decide a few things, do Grave guard get +1 AS then in CC if their weapons are magical? By Logan etc rules, they dont..
Are BK's legal, they have 2 magical weapons at the same time, Lance and HW? By Logan et al rules, they are not legal...
The power of the KB and having magical attacks is from the wight, whatever he holds in his hand becomes magical AND has the KB potential, so this would include a rusty dinner knife....

But the one thing I object to is the statement early on from Logan, that 'Vc players having been pulling a fast one for years', as far as I am concerned, this was the first time I have ever heard this question come up. I have never thought of the two rules being linked. The theory is not correct and even if it was, it is so unlikely to rear it's head, it's not even worth arguing about..

EvC
05-12-2007, 18:51
Haha, yes, last time I played logan I asked about this and if anyone had actually ever pulled this fast one on him in a game... and no, no they haven't. Us VC players aren't that sneaky really are we? ;)

Makaiju
07-12-2007, 17:11
I’m not sure I know any of the posters well enough to make a 100 percent accurate judgment call but I have to say, I think this is just a miss understanding.

I do not think Logan was saying “VC players were trying to cheat all this time”. I think he was saying, “Hey, we’ve been playing with an interpretation of the rule that has been giving the VC players and unfair advantage.”

Best news… everyone seems to be on the same page now. The KB ability is not affected by the negation items in question. So no one has had an unfair advantage in any games played. (Unless some other player was forcing VC/TK players to not use the KB affect.)

Now the magical effect is gone. So Tomb Blades affected by the negation can’t affect ethereal models. (Or other ‘can only be hit by magic weapon’ type troops.)

As far as the other issue Olaf, I think it’s a ToMAto vs. TOmato. Well, at least as far as how I’ve read and debated the rules with others.

The rule about only 1 magic item, is referring more to the point of “you can only buy one wargear weapon.” So no taking two items with two different affects and trying to figure out which affects hit and which affects didn’t hit. No taking two magic items to give your hero and extra A in CC.

The model ability that turns any touched mundane item into a magic item (So that it affects magic only creatures) and also gives it the KB affect, wouldn’t break the above rule. Officially the model has zero magic items on them. It just so happens what ever weapon the touch becomes magic at that time. By that same wording, if the weapon was holstered, then the item wouldn’t be magic any more and the model would still only have ‘one’ magic weapon on them.

EvC
07-12-2007, 17:48
Yes, it is a misunderstanding by yourself ;) I do not think logan was accusing us players of cheating (In fact he could not, as he has never actually had a VC player use Wights' Killing Blow on a Runeshielded Chaos character) either though, although I don't think he's withdrawn his argument.

Makaiju
07-12-2007, 17:56
Woops… my bad. I made spoke to soon. I don’t see “his” changing of the mind.

I mean I still disagree with Logan statement about KB being negated but I completely agree he’s not questioning anyone’s morals/motives.

logan054
18-12-2007, 00:39
I agree



This is what is happening on the Carpe Thread of the same topic.

Can we then decide a few things, do Grave guard get +1 AS then in CC if their weapons are magical? By Logan etc rules, they dont..
Are BK's legal, they have 2 magical weapons at the same time, Lance and HW? By Logan et al rules, they are not legal...
The power of the KB and having magical attacks is from the wight, whatever he holds in his hand becomes magical AND has the KB potential, so this would include a rusty dinner knife....

But the one thing I object to is the statement early on from Logan, that 'Vc players having been pulling a fast one for years', as far as I am concerned, this was the first time I have ever heard this question come up. I have never thought of the two rules being linked. The theory is not correct and even if it was, it is so unlikely to rear it's head, it's not even worth arguing about..

None of you have actually read what the chaos runeshield then, it does not just make a magical weapon mundane, it negates rules attached to these weapons. I actually at no point in the wording of say chaos runeshield mention that the source of the power need be magical or mundane.

hate to bring this up again however my comp died :(

galenus
10-01-2008, 20:13
What about Crom the Conqueror's special HW/Shield ability? I believe it negates the special properties of ANY weapon and they only count as mundane hand weapons.

***was reading the two Wight Blades threads for so long between working and meetings that I forgot this was the old one. Oops :( ***

athamas
11-01-2008, 22:43
the probelm is that the wight blade rule affects any 'non magical' weapon carried by the wright counts as magical...


this means that vauls unmaking can remove its magical propertyis... turning it into a normal weapon of its type... yay...


then, the wright decides to use the weapon.... as per their rules, and normal weapon carried by the wright counts as a magical weapon. The weapon also has killing blow...


its a circular argument, but as vauls unmaking is a one off effect.. [it strips the magic wepon of its properties, turning it back into a normal weapon. then stops working] as soon as the wright does anything with the blade [such as hit an elf] it gains its properties back... as its weilding an 'normal weapon' that vauls unmaking created for it!


so in effect, vauls unmaking works, but due to the special rule 'wright blade' it has no real in game effect.... [think of the wright simply drawing another hand weapon... or small dagger... or tea spoon... or twig... they are all hand weapons ... maybe not the twig]