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oCoYoRoAoKo
27-11-2007, 11:08
quick question here, as you buy the dragonmage as one unit (mage and dragon) for a set price, how many points you you get for killing the mage/ or the dragon? (as the dragon is a monstrous mount and you get VPs seporately for killing it).

Cy.

Lord Dannus
27-11-2007, 11:13
250 pts for the dragon - this is how much it costs for the archmage's sun dragon, and a basic High Elf mage costs 100pts. Makes sense as the dragonmage costs 350pts.

enyoss
27-11-2007, 11:52
I'd say VP's are awarded treating the entire model as one. That is, the model has 7 wounds and half VP's are awarded when 4 wounds have been removed etc.

To do otherwise is a bit of a stretch. For example, why should Dragon Mages cost the same as normal Mages when they don't have the same rules?

Of course, it would have just been a lot easier to list the points costs seperately and stipulate that a Dragon Mage must ride a Sun Dragon :).

Cheers,

enyoss

DeathlessDraich
27-11-2007, 12:21
This is tougher than I thought and definitely needs an FAQ.

Since the Dragon is a monstrous mount it must follow the rules for the VPs of Monstous mounts - VPs are allocated separately.

230 pts for the Prince's Sun Dragon but 250 pts if an Archmage mounts it. No points are allocated for the Sun Dragon of the Dragonmage.

250 pts seems the logical choice but ...

Chicago Slim
27-11-2007, 13:53
If you're going to try to break down the points of the mage and the dragon seperately, I'd argue that the dragon is 230 points, and the sun mage is 120 (he costs more than a normal heroic mage, because he has a better stat-line; sure, 20 points may seem like a lot for +1 A, but there you are).

Personally, though, I wouldn't break down the points at all. 4 wounds to the model gives 1/2 points. Destroying the model entirely gives full points.

DeathlessDraich
27-11-2007, 16:37
Treating the Dmage and mount as one model for determining VPs is not a viable solution.

1) The 'combined' model becomes a single model with very different VPs when either component is slain.
2) The distribution of wounds is separate e.g. 2 wounds inflicted.
This would have slain the Dragon mage. He has additional points - upgrades, magic items, general etc.
However 2 wounds on the Dragon gets no VPs

Capt_Ithuriel
27-11-2007, 17:12
yet because the army book does not list the dragon mage and his sun dragon with seperate point costs, the only reasonable thing would be to treat them as a single unit with multiple wounds.

Think of it this way, even if you kill the mage, the dragon will survive to fly back to Caldor, thus denying your opponent full VPs. Conversely, a Dragonmage that has had his sun dragon shot out from underneath him will be held in the deepest disgrace, possibly driven to emotional despondency and suicide because of it.
-J

enyoss
27-11-2007, 17:27
Treating the Dmage and mount as one model for determining VPs is not a viable solution.


To be honest I think it is the only viable solution and, indeed, the only solution supported in the rules.

We have already seen how two posters have disagreed on how to apportion the points to the mage and Sun Dragon independently. I don't even know how I'd split the cost myself without playing a few games, and that's hardly objective.

There are, quite simply, no existing points values for the seperate components, and therefore costing them seperately for VP purposes cannot be supported by the rules. Of course, if you and your opponent can come to a happy agreement then I certainly don't have a problem with that (bring back the 3rd edition spirit I say :)).

Cheers,

enyoss

therisnosaurus
27-11-2007, 18:42
The situation is thus

at the current stage, because both mount and dragon are listed under a single points cost, they are treated as a single 'unit' and half wounds must be inflicted on the 'unit' as a whole. I'm guessing GW will FAQ this at some stage, but it may have been a deliberate move to make the DM more attractive, as you have to inflict 4 wounds, at least 2 on the dragon, to even get half points. Until they FAQ it, treat the model as one wounds total.

Don't forget, in units certain models get upgrades (magic standard/champion) and if these get destroyed/killed you don't nessecarily get their full points costs. treating the dragon mage like that isn't so hard, though I freely admit it's a departure from the usual system with heroes

DeathlessDraich
28-11-2007, 13:48
To be honest I think it is the only viable solution and, indeed, the only solution supported in the rules.


1) I'm not sure which rule you're referring to but the VPs for characters are quite clear -"characters mounted on monsters/chariots are counted separately from their mount".

2) Since 3 posts have advocated the single model system, there might be something I've missed.
How would you allocate VPs for the following at the end of the battle (The dragon mage has 50pts of magical items:

a) The Mage is slain and the Dragon has 4 wounds left.
b) The Dragon has 1 wound left and the mage has 1 wound left.
c) The Dragon is slain and the mage has all its original wounds


I would first of all dice roll for the Dragon's VP - either 230 or 250.
Assuming 250:
a) 150 VPs plus other possible bonuses
b) 125 + 75 = 200 VPs
c) 250 VPs


therisnosaurus: The pts cost for each entry in the army list is for a 'model' and not for a 'unit'.

Atrahasis
28-11-2007, 13:50
A dragon+rider with a single points cost has happened before you know - Asarnil has only 460 listed.

It was faq'd to be 330/130 for VP purposes, so I expect a similar ruling to be along shortly. For a given value of shortly.

T10
28-11-2007, 14:34
In my opinion you should count the Dragon as being worth 250 points and the base value of the rider to be 100 points.

-T10

bop
28-11-2007, 14:53
as my dragon mage tends to croak it lot i use half points if he dies and vice versa.
bop

enyoss
28-11-2007, 14:53
How would you allocate VPs for the following at the end of the battle (The dragon mage has 50pts of magical items:

a) The Mage is slain and the Dragon has 4 wounds left.
b) The Dragon has 1 wound left and the mage has 1 wound left.
c) The Dragon is slain and the mage has all its original wounds


Easy :). The total cost of the model is 350+50=400pts, with a total of 7 wounds. As such, I would resolve it as follows:

a) Total model has taken 2+1=3 wounds. Remaining wounds=4, 4>7/2, so no VP's I'm afraid.
b) Total model has taken 1+4=5 wounds. Remaining wounds=2, 2<7/2, so (200) half VP's awarded.
c) Total model has taken 5 wounds. Remaining wounds=2, 2<7/2, so half (200) VP's awarded.

The reason I support this solution is that it is consistent and easy to calculate. If my opponent were to argue for a 250/100 split (or any other combination) I could always argue for a different combination with as much justification, if I were inclined that way.

If people want to read this and take away some kind of robust solution, I think the single model solution is the least subjective.

Cheers,

enyoss

Atrahasis
28-11-2007, 14:56
That symbol you keep on using, I do not think it means what you think it means.

enyoss
28-11-2007, 14:58
Is that at me? Which symbol do you mean?

Cheers,

enyoss

Atrahasis
28-11-2007, 15:03
Is that at me? Which symbol do you mean?

The one you just went through your post and changed ;)

enyoss
28-11-2007, 15:08
The one you just went through your post and changed ;)

I know what you mean, but it was still correct... just very unclear! I first stipulated that the (wounds taken)<(total wounds/2), which implied that (wounds remaining)>(total wounds/2), and vice versa.

Mathematically sound, but a C- when it came to clarity ;)!

Cheers,

enyoss

theunwantedbeing
28-11-2007, 16:41
Half wounds suffered to the model as a whole seems to be the fairest way of working it out.
Half wounds caused = half points
All wound = all points.

Very simple and makes things easier to calculate.
Although applied to say...malekith for example you get nearly 500 points from dropping his dragon to a single wound left....hehe
There's another one to add to the argument of how much malekith sucks!

Chicago Slim
28-11-2007, 21:29
Draich, I'd LOVE to follow the rule you cited, really I would. But it's simply not possible to do so, without a house rule whereby my opponent and I agree on how to split the points.

Maybe it'll get FAQ'd. Until it does, the only rule that can guide us is "half points for half wounds".

ZiggyQubert
30-11-2007, 19:36
Of course in that case you are actually ignoring rules that clearly state how VP's should be calculated (even though the cost of the ppl is not clear) in favor of making up a rule. Note it IS a character on a monstrous mount and there ARE clear rules for how to calculate the VP's for a character on a monstrous mount, even if the amount of VP's are not clear, the rule most certainly is.

And if I may say so if the 20 points realy make a difference you can dice it off or say the dragon is realy worth 240pts which, is in the end better then ignoring a rule that is clearly written. And also the rule for a monsterous mount is when it has more than 1 wound, not when it's point cost is included in the characters.

DDogwood
03-12-2007, 18:06
Of course in that case you are actually ignoring rules that clearly state how VP's should be calculated (even though the cost of the ppl is not clear) in favor of making up a rule.

Well, since the rules that 'clearly state' how to calculate VPs are written with regard to characters that can purchase chariots or mounts as upgrades, the same criticism applies to you.

The choice is between "making up a rule", as you say, and "making up points values". The best solution is to discuss it with your opponent before the game starts, and come up with something you can both live with. Both the "splitting VPs" and the "single model" solutions are perfectly fine, and there's a good chance that it won't matter in a lot of games anyhow.

GodHead
03-12-2007, 22:40
We just need the separate points costs from GW so we can calculate the victory points as usual for characters and mounts as per the rules.

DeathlessDraich
04-12-2007, 09:57
The choice is between "making up a rule", as you say, and "making up points values". The best solution is to discuss it with your opponent before the game starts, and come up with something you can both live with.

Don't you think that guessing the Dragon's or Dmage's point value is the lesser of 2 evils since it makes a difference of +-10 V. points whereas changing the rule could result in a difference of 100 or more?

DDogwood
04-12-2007, 13:57
Don't you think that guessing the Dragon's or Dmage's point value is the lesser of 2 evils since it makes a difference of +-10 V. points whereas changing the rule could result in a difference of 100 or more?

Only if you and your opponent both feel that it is the lesser of two evils.