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Orbital
27-11-2007, 16:51
The Eldar Falcon with its holofields and its ability to carry dangerous passengers... everyone seems to have an opinion. What makes me think so? Take a look at these threads I've seen in the last few days which deal directly with the issue:

Falcon + Harlequins (Eldarish or Cheese?) (http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=114130) Starts off with "This thread is NOT for Falcon or Rending Bashing", and then becomes a thread for Falcon bashing.

Falcons are not overpowered (http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=115223) Intended to be a thread about why Falcons are misunderstood but could have been plucked from the mid-point of any of the other threads, as the stuff that's said here is not stuff we haven't heard before.

Get rid of Holofields (http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=114922) Dark Eldar player takes out his frustrations here, but some decent tactica does emerge. One of the more civil Falcon threads (generally speaking).

Should I bother playing Eldar? [with serious Query] (http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=114989) Poster interested in Eldar asks if the fact everyone thinks they're so cheesy means it's not worth playing them. Falcons mentioned in fourth post and continualy thereafter.

Bird Hunting and Killer Clowns from outer Space (http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=114321) An Eldar player's attempt to offer some tactica for dealing with the Falcon/Harlequin combination. Warning: Math-hammer/theory-hammer heavy... and the usual arguments which go with it.

"Can YOU Down A Falcon" game (http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=114391) Sarcastic attempt to end-run solid statistic analysis which asks everyone to toss dice to see how many rolls it takes to kill a Falcon.

This is just from the last few days. If you don't find you've got enough here to keep you busy, you can search back a week or two and see if there's anything more there for you on the subject. I'm sure there is.

I am posting this for two reasons:
1. It's a roundup of Falcon-related talk which addresses every imaginable concern and complaint (including some made-up ones).
2. It's a documenting of previous threads about Falcons which hopefully will encourage people to resist keep making new ones.

It's not that I think any one poster should have the right to tell other posters what they can and can't start a thread about. I'm just saying "I think we've got it covered. How about keeping the anti-Falcon stuff contained within recent (and still ongoing) discussions... or maybe giving it a break completely for a while?"

Best regards to you all.

Killgore
27-11-2007, 17:04
does everything think that Falcon usage has gone up since GW kindly released that apocalypse box where you get 3 for the price of 2 :)

mabey this has some relation to the number of falcon threads that have appeared over the last month

Orbital
27-11-2007, 17:09
does everything think that Falcon usage has gone up since GW kindly released that apocalypse box where you get 3 for the price of 2 :)

mabey this has some relation to the number of falcon threads that have appeared over the last month
Hard to say. I think the number of 40k players who are now playing Apocalypse probably ranks in at around 10% of the whole community (probably less, but let's be generous). Of those players, maybe 20% are Eldar players? I don't think too many people are getting hammered by the three-Falcon box set... especially because Apocalypse handed out a LOT of hammers.

Sureshot05
27-11-2007, 17:13
You know, this is one of those threads that has to be commented on... I say:











STICKY (for the time being), this covers the topic better than anything else I've seen and directs everyone to want they need to know.

Rahveel
27-11-2007, 17:16
I don't think it is the 3 falcon game in apoc that people are having an issue with, but using that cheaper set to field 3 falcons in regular games. 3 falcons can be a really tough thing for almost anyone to deal with....

Orbital
27-11-2007, 17:18
3 falcons can be a really tough thing for almost anyone to deal with....
That's an excellent point. You should start a thread about it.

TwilightOdyssey
27-11-2007, 17:41
a) Thanks for putting this all in one place.

b) As an Eldar player that owns 2 Falcons, but only uses one in regular 40K, and has the other one for Apocalypse only, I can say that it would be foolish not to take advantage of the 3 Falcon boxed set. I intend on getting it, though I probably won't be assembling them this side of 2008. :) And I will continue to use only 1 Falcon in regular 40K, and keep the rest for Apoc.

c) I'll refrain from muddying the waters re: my feelings on the Falcon here, but I agree that the subject has fairly been beat to death.

Rahveel
27-11-2007, 17:41
That's an excellent point. You should start a thread about it.

wait... really? wasn't the point of this tread to avoid making more?

</run sarcasm detector > <sarcasm detection not available at this time> <please contact your network administrator for support>

Voodoo Boyz
27-11-2007, 18:26
Much like the Assault Cannon, Las/Plas, and shooty Carnifex's, when something is broken and popular, it will have a ton of threads complaining about it.

Personally, I take a bit of satisfaction in the fact that people are complaining about it now. I called "the broken" about Harlies/Dragons in Falcons way back when the Codex first came out and was "shouted down" about how it wouldn't be that bad.

Eventually people will realize that the army build is as abusive as the aforementioned stuff and the complaints will die down eventually with a few pips here and there, kind of how like Las/Plas is still complained about, but not as much anymore.

sigur
27-11-2007, 18:39
I honor you trying, Orbital but this is 40k General. People will just ignore you, start mmore and more threads about the same topics or will just wait so they can threadomance the threads you're linking to.

Cry of the Wind
27-11-2007, 18:53
wait... really? wasn't the point of this tread to avoid making more?

Yes it is the point of this thread. Your commenting on 3 falcons being tough on anyone is just the precursor to this thread looking exactly like all the other threads just listed. This is not what Orbital wants and his comment (I'm assuming) was just his way of trying to stop that before it starts.

I for one am hoping that Voodoo Boyz is right and that this will become the Las/Plas disscussion of the future where everyone just accepts it and moves on without needing thousands of pages of threads to argue about it.

Omniassiah
27-11-2007, 18:55
just remember the most powerful unit in the game for the sake of enjoyment: yourself combined with the wargear "No". Just don't play these people, stop going to the tournaments where everything is meta-gamed flavor of the month armies. Really saves a lot of headaches.

cochise
27-11-2007, 19:06
Well, about the Las/Plas discussion, it didnīt finish with "everyone just accepts it and moves on". It ended in Las/Plas squads beeing put in his place by the new SM codex: DA, BA and Chaos. People moved on AFTER the problem was solved. Same thing with asscanons. And shooty fexes only scare you the first time you face them in numbers, once you know how to deal with them they are ok.
What I am saying here, is that "maybe" there is a real balance problem with the falcon and if that is the case, the cheese screams will continue untill it gets solved.
(Iīm fine with falcons as they are though, and I am NOT an eldar player)

Killgore
27-11-2007, 19:09
the Monolith never got tuned down yet the complaints about that have stopped?

Rahveel
27-11-2007, 19:10
just remember the most powerful unit in the game for the sake of enjoyment: yourself combined with the wargear "No". Just don't play these people, stop going to the tournaments where everything is meta-gamed flavor of the month armies. Really saves a lot of headaches.

to true.

I understand people's frustration, but it is hard to draw a line between a unit actually having a problem, and people feeling that it does.

Orbital
27-11-2007, 19:11
the Monolith never got tuned down yet the complaints about that have stopped?
You mean all the complaining on Warseer didn't change the rules? You don't say!

boogaloo
27-11-2007, 19:13
I personally had alot of fun with the "on landraiders and falcons" thread and was kinda sad when it died down. I also belive that the falcon as is, is relatively ballanced. so i sort of have fun when everybody says they're uber cheese. I can see where three would be intense, especially loaded up with harlies, but it's like warlock squads on bike. Ultra good.... more expensive. Anything that costs almost 1000 points to pull of should be bloody merciless. if that nigh on 1000 pts consists of 18 models, 3 of which are nearly indestructible, but not reliable for killing purposes, and 15 of those are nerly guaranteed to kill anything but not so reliable in the survivability department.... i would say it's fairly ballanced. I've also seen how it is possible for players to counter assault troops in eldar vehicles, via movement. the incident i'm thinking of involved banshees in a falcon trying to assault tau, and i just could not pull it off with out being smote by shooting. wait a turn and deploy then assault you say? he moved back from the front of my falcon, outside of reliable assault range. don't forget the tank itself is about 7" long. well turn your falcon around so you get closer you say? then he moves up and blocks my exit ramp. I think people need to think a bit less about raw stats, and look at alternate means to neutralise something. like wraithlords... at first glance... big and scary, however throw a 12 man guatn squad at it and it CAN'T do anything else for 6 turns... even assuming every attack it has kills. now look at the poitnts difference

Orbital
27-11-2007, 19:18
Oh yeah... the "On land raiders and falcons" thread. I forgot to link that one.

Just a reminder: There are six threads linked at the top of this thread that are currently enjoying many pages of discussion about the Falcon thing. Not that it's my right to tell you what to post or where, but this thread wasn't meant to be the seventh one.

Rikens
27-11-2007, 19:19
Drive up in yer trukk. Grab it wit yer klaw. Board it wit yer nob, or just clobber it wit yer wreckin' ballz! Get it afore yer tankbustas do! Show them gitz 'owz it done!

Moostikal The Confused
27-11-2007, 19:23
Ok, judging by the amount of post complaining about falcons i might just be one of the non-eldar players who won't mind the Falcon. I don't seem to have too much hassle takin them down, even with my orks. The rokkits just slammed on home.
Meh, get some better CC troops to take care of its cargo. Anyways even if there is 3 of them thats still only 3 targets to have all your heavies popin shots at.

Now please, stopit

cochise
27-11-2007, 19:26
If they changed the rules for the monolith right now, necrons would be screwed, at least many lists out there. Is not that they are getting the best results in tournaments, and it is an army that has few good options and several weakness.
Eldar on the other hand...
So maybe GW designers actually have a clue about what is "unbalanced" and what is fine as it is without needing to read the forums. Anyone could say what works and what doesnīt looking at GT results and lists all over the world. Letīs see what happens to skimmers and to the vehicle damage chart in the rumored next edition.

Flame Boy
27-11-2007, 19:33
Wow, Orbital, your sense of humour has taken a turn for the sarcastic! I must admit I was amused.

I find myself in a situation where I have decided to (re)collect an Ulthwe themed army. When the Falcon was first released (or was it an xmas deal? I forget), there was a 3-Falcon splash release in mail order, and I got three. two were assembled, one was left in a mothball state for years. Last year I bought an Eldar boxed army, containing another Falcon. In theory, if I get my backside in gear, I can field a total of four of the little blighters, then (well, in apoc games, anyway). However, I think I will experiment with other heavy support choices. When they release a plastic Fire Prism turret, I'll grab one of those right from the start. I'm not sure about the support platforms, they might be a little too static for my liking.

I don't think I'd be happy fielding more than one or two Falcons. I'd only field two if I was using any of them as transports. I'm loading up on War Walkers and Vypers for Craftworld-themed fire support.

Mind you, I haven't played the game properly since 2nd edition, back when my Falcons would see a Leman Russ and cry. :p

TzeentchForPresident
27-11-2007, 20:00
It isnīt complete, because if there is one thing that is wrong with the current wh40k basic rules is the rules covering the combo of fast vehicles and skimmers. So add this topic to the list please:

A thought on the 'Skimmer Moving fast' rule (http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=115228)

Current skimmer rules +( Holofield + Spiritstones + Harlequins)x 3 = The very definition of cheese in current version of wh40k

Each rule on their own wouldnīt had been too bad, however the combo is absolutly devasting and it certainly seems too many guys involved not talking to each other have made this mess happened.

I hope it is perfectly clear for GW by now that they need to playtest all combos. It looked like they were aware of how to balancing 3 hard-to-kill Monoliths with the "phase out rule" because Necrons lacked other transport vehicles. But somehow GW was naive enough to think that Waveserpents will still be the main transports for Elite troops such as Harlequins when Falcons were given a survivability that rivals that of Monoliths.

banik
27-11-2007, 20:02
Don't forget to add the "Thread that attempts to congeal all Falcon threads into an easily indexable location."

:-)

Really, I found it amusing and even somewhat helpful. I'm So tired of seing half the threads here revolve around falcons.

Bloodknight
27-11-2007, 20:04
Obviously. I hope they test newer codices better although they already dropped the ball with the double lash combo (I still do not get how they could not imagine that a lot of people would use the best psyker power in the codex as often as possible....)

Orbital
27-11-2007, 20:20
But somehow GW was naive enough to think that Waveserpents will still be the main transports for Elite troops such as Harlequins when Falcons were given a survivability that rivals that of Monoliths.
I doubt GW thought Wave Serpents would be the primary transport for Harlequins because it was GW who published the rules preventing them from using one.

Wraithbored
27-11-2007, 20:23
Many people got fed up with this topic(including me) I mean come one we've even had pix posted of beatings of very dead equines...

Orbital
27-11-2007, 20:24
Many people got fed up with this topic(including me) I mean come one we've even had pix posted of beatings of very dead equines...
Yeah. That was gross.

TzeentchForPresident
27-11-2007, 20:39
Many people got fed up with this topic(including me) I mean come one we've even had pix posted of beatings of very dead equines...

Well this topic was started by an Eldar player, although it should have a slightly different name, "the Falcon" = singular. It is "Falcons" that causes outcry.

Wraithbored
27-11-2007, 22:05
Yeah. That was gross.

I found it rather apt :D

Orbital
27-11-2007, 22:12
Well this topic was started by an Eldar player, although it should have a slightly different name, "the Falcon" = singular. It is "Falcons" that causes outcry.
One Falcon, two Falcons, Three Falcons, four...
There are always some guys who want to use more.

But throw in a Holofield... spirit stones too
And some folks won't like what one Falcon can do.

Xenocidal Maniac
27-11-2007, 22:21
Just a reminder: There are six threads linked at the top of this thread that are currently enjoying many pages of discussion about the Falcon thing. Not that it's my right to tell you what to post or where, but this thread wasn't meant to be the seventh one.

And how long have you been a member of warseer?

Placing my bet now that this thread reaches 600+ posts. :rolleyes:

Orbital
27-11-2007, 22:28
And how long have you been a member of warseer?
I'd say about 14 months longer and 3800 more posts than you. Oh, and if you'll allow for a moment of self-congratulation, I was Poster of the Year in 2006.


Placing my bet now that this thread reaches 600+ posts. :rolleyes:
The good news is that you don't have to read so much as a single one of them if you don't want to.

As for me... if it goes to 600+ posts, so be it. I've said what I wanted to say.

Xenocidal Maniac
27-11-2007, 22:29
I'd say about 14 months longer and 3800 more posts than you.


The good news is that you don't have to read so much as a single one of them if you don't want to.

As for me... if it goes to 600+ posts, so be it. I've said what I wanted to say.

Oh, WOW. I am a ***** who can't see that you have 18 billion posts and obviously a lot more free time than I.

I was sympathizing with you, you over-sensitive jerk.

Orbital
27-11-2007, 22:31
Oh, WOW. I am a ***** who can't see that you have 18 billion posts and obviously a lot more free time than I.

I was sympathizing with you, you over-sensitive jerk.

I was just answering your question, Shortfuse.

boogaloo
27-11-2007, 22:41
GW was naive enough to think that Waveserpents will still be the main transports for Elite troops such as Harlequins when Falcons were given a survivability that rivals that of Monoliths.

As afore mentioned GW specificaly kept harlies from going in to wave serpents. I believe that this was to keep them from rolling up on you with 10 harlies + kisses / farseer + doom, and behaving identicaly to the holofalcon circus bomb x2 because the real strength of the falcon isn't the holofield's it's the ability to stay out of line of sight until it disembarks, the vectored engines are more important than the holofields for troop delivery. Tonight i'm going to go home, put my necrons and eldar on the table and analyse the poop out of this situation.

will report back tomorrow.

malisteen
27-11-2007, 23:34
I was sympathizing with you, you over-sensitive jerk.

I was just answering your question, Shortfuse.

Woah. Anybody else getting that feeling of tension in romantic comedies when the two characters who supposedly hate each other have just finished hurling some insults, right before they suddenly start passionately making out? ;)

I love those moments. :p

MuttMan
27-11-2007, 23:48
-Stun the Falcon, then it cant move thus no skimmer glance stuff, ignore it until next turn.

-Immobilise the falcon, then get rid of it as an immobile target if it has vectored engines.

-Are 6 troops really that big of a deal? Or 18, taking the fact he's using over 500 points in tranports to get them there, and most likely not shooting all of his weapons in the meantime?

Only inexperience or forgetfulness (I wont use a word to level someones intelligence shooting at a falcon after its stunned)

A 3 in 6 chance (50%) on a glance you can give the falcon troubles. Reroll the dice, still a 50% chance, albeit slightly less because of the reroll.

The falcon cant really kill its cost if your a wise player. The falcon, prepared for is a waste of points entirely. People who keep splitting their armies up so that their devistator unit can be eaten up by 6 models is usually the one at fault for leaving a space for a bishop to kill his rook.

Imperialis_Dominatus
28-11-2007, 00:00
Woah. Anybody else getting that feeling of tension in romantic comedies when the two characters who supposedly hate each other have just finished hurling some insults, right before they suddenly start passionately making out? ;)

I love those moments. :p

I just got a wierd image of a Marine hugging a Wraithlord. Hgurk!


-Stun the Falcon, then it cant move thus no skimmer glance stuff, ignore it until next turn.

-Immobilise the falcon, then get rid of it as an immobile target if it has vectored engines.

-Are 6 troops really that big of a deal? Or 18, taking the fact he's using over 500 points in tranports to get them there, and most likely not shooting all of his weapons in the meantime?

Only inexperience or forgetfulness (I wont use a word to level someones intelligence shooting at a falcon after its stunned)

A 3 in 6 chance (50%) on a glance you can give the falcon troubles. Reroll the dice, still a 50% chance, albeit slightly less because of the reroll.

The falcon cant really kill its cost if your a wise player. The falcon, prepared for is a waste of points entirely. People who keep splitting their armies up so that their devistator unit can be eaten up by 6 models is usually the one at fault for leaving a space for a bishop to kill his rook.

Did you read the first post? This is more of an outcry against the over-discussion of the Falcon. And you............ discuss the Falcon. :eyebrows:

EDIT: Some more.


That's an excellent point. You should start a thread about it.

Yes. Indeed. Let us hear more. Because the threads on it just weren't enough.


just remember the most powerful unit in the game for the sake of enjoyment: yourself combined with the wargear "No". Just don't play these people, stop going to the tournaments where everything is meta-gamed flavor of the month armies. Really saves a lot of headaches.

I like your style.


You mean all the complaining on Warseer didn't change the rules? You don't say!

Oh my, I'm shocked! Utterly shocked! GW doesn't give a **** what we think! The outrage, this obviously being something we've never known for years on end!

Xenocidal Maniac
28-11-2007, 00:45
Woah. Anybody else getting that feeling of tension in romantic comedies when the two characters who supposedly hate each other have just finished hurling some insults, right before they suddenly start passionately making out? ;)

I love those moments. :p

This brought a smile to my face :D

Anyway, Orbital, chill out a bit. I completely agree with you the Falcon hate topic has been done to death and then some. But I was pointing out how ironic it is that although you didn't intend for this to be the 7th such thread, it will likely degenerate into it anyway.

Vault-Dweller
28-11-2007, 00:46
Good idea making this thread. I am sure it will stop those boring falcon threads. And its a shame. I realy liked those.

Orbital
28-11-2007, 01:06
This brought a smile to my face :D

Anyway, Orbital, chill out a bit. I completely agree with you the Falcon hate topic has been done to death and then some. But I was pointing out how ironic it is that although you didn't intend for this to be the 7th such thread, it will likely degenerate into it anyway.
Aw, shucks.

Gimme a hug you big lunk. :)

Orbital
28-11-2007, 01:06
Good idea making this thread. I am sure it will stop those boring falcon threads. And its a shame. I realy liked those.

They're still in progress as we speak. That's the beauty of it... the discussions run concurrently. The links are in my first post!

elvinltl
28-11-2007, 04:17
I am starting a thread about how the community want Falcons to be like. Because Falcons are in Danger of being removed from the real Eldar arsenal.

http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=115371

Orbital
28-11-2007, 05:07
Falcons are in Danger of being removed from the real Eldar arsenal.

Where. In the world. Did you get that idea?

deathwing_marine
28-11-2007, 05:24
Hey guys, I started the dice game thread. I think the only problemm with Falcons is their durability. I could care less about it being a transport or its firepower; those can be dealt with. Its just when you hit it with enough shots to wreck 2 Baneblades (seen it happen) you get the feeling that something is wrong.

AngryAngel
28-11-2007, 05:27
You know..I get the falcon is over powerd..I do..and I hate all the talk about them now..just as I now hate this thread..down with it !!!..and its listing of all the threads I hate. If there is anything worse then the mutant, the xeno and the hereitc..its threads whinning about them.

grizzly ruin
28-11-2007, 06:26
I like meta-threads.


does everything think that Falcon usage has gone up since GW kindly released that apocalypse box where you get 3 for the price of 2 :)

mabey this has some relation to the number of falcon threads that have appeared over the last month


Might also have to do with players moving to Mech Eldar as one of the strongest current lists compounded by many new codices getting heavy weapon access restrictions.

Expect continued complaining.

Orbital
28-11-2007, 06:34
Expect continued complaining.
A friend of mine told me once that 40k is actually two hobbies, not just one. You have the game of Warhammer 40k, and you have complaining about Warhammer 40k. Who am I to deny anyone the right to enjoy both hobbies?

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I've said what I wanted to say. I don't own or direct the thread; I just wanted to point something out. And I've done it. Where it goes from there isn't my right to decide.

Omniassiah
28-11-2007, 06:44
Bah its 3 hobbies... Playing 40k, complaining about 40k, Getting drunk after playing a 40k tournament. I perfer the first and third hobbies with good company like Don_Mondo, just need to get him to harrisburg for a tourny some time again.

Orbital
28-11-2007, 06:45
I think all cheese is forgiven if you buy the first round.

azrael22
28-11-2007, 06:51
In the time it took me to read this thread...

ANOTHER FALCON THREAD WENT UP!!:mad::wtf::cries:

Omniassiah
28-11-2007, 06:53
that can get expensive if you running a 20 man tourny but I'd let a lot slide. Always love our lowest option for theme in our player scoring for our tournies: "Only theme is a thin veil to cover the powergaming" Though might have to add a bonus point for buying the Tourny director a beer afterwards or springing for dinner!!

Orbital
28-11-2007, 07:09
In the time it took me to read this thread...

ANOTHER FALCON THREAD WENT UP!!:mad::wtf::cries:

What I find funny is when people come into this thread and start saying "HERE'S MY OFFICIAL TAKE ON FALCONS AND HOW CHEESEY THEY ARE/AREN'T...", etc. despite the overtly clear message in the first post that enough is enough, already. Kinda makes you think they see the word "Falcon" in the thread title and then just start typing away. :)

RavingGuard
28-11-2007, 07:30
shooting a falcon down is a challenge..... but i like challenges. i play against eldar all the time, falcons aren't as tough as everyone says, just got to concentrate fire.

(the aspect warrior assault wave however is more annoying!!!)

Orbital
28-11-2007, 07:42
In the time I've been playing Eldar, I've only ever come up with one list that I found was almost unbeatable and, after dozens of games using it, I pretty much had all the holes plugged. That list was my Ulthwe Strike Force list. Not one Tank, Wraithlord or Aspect Warrior (aside from Dark Reapers). I have not, before or since, been able to get anywhere close to that list's winning streak. I doubt I ever will.

Just to repeat: Not a single Falcon in the one list I played which I'd characterize as "almost unbeatable".

Imperialis_Dominatus
28-11-2007, 08:22
Kinda makes you think they see the word "Falcon" in the thread title and then just start typing away. :)

Look below.


shooting a falcon down is a challenge..... but i like challenges. i play against eldar all the time, falcons aren't as tough as everyone says, just got to concentrate fire.

(the aspect warrior assault wave however is more annoying!!!)

Yep.

Khaine's Fury
28-11-2007, 09:46
Mainly, players have to get a sense of proportion here. I've seen Armoured Company players whine about 2 or 3 Falcons, i've seen opponents field 3 Monoliths and complain about 2 Falcons, i've seen the Iron Warrior Defiler quad of doom with added bloody Obliterators and never said a word.....but you can bet the minute you place a Falcon on the board someone will start whinging. Get a grip guys. :)

elvinltl
28-11-2007, 11:04
Where. In the world. Did you get that idea?


By hypothesis of Falcons nerfing... Use some common sense and logic to figure that out. I am sure you've got those.:)

I think the moderators are going to ban anymore Falcon threads... :D

Orbital
28-11-2007, 11:27
By hypothesis of Falcons nerfing... Use some common sense and logic to figure that out. I am sure you've got those.:)
Look, elvinltl... there's going to be a new codex for the Eldar at some point, and that codex will bring changes to the rules. We know this. If the last one was any indication, however, we have roughly 6 more years to wait before we see it. Your thread which invites everyone to make group decisions which might save the Falcon from being "nerfed" to death is really kinda premature.
a
More salient than that, of course, is the fact that the collective voice of Warseer will neither save nor doom the Falcon in the next revision of the rules. Game designers at GW aren't checking to see what you think before they make decisions about the next Eldar codex. Given that the Falcon has stayed mostly the same for the last two codices, precedent suggests they won't change it much at all.

For these reasons, I find the paranoid idea that "Falcons are in Danger of being removed from the real Eldar arsenal" entirely baseless. I see a lot of histrionic threads that propose ridiculous and impossibly complex changes to the rules... but no imaginable changes in the codex Falcon statline for many years to come. Also, as I said, precedent suggests that GW likes the Falcon as it is. It just takes some common sense and logic to figure that out. I'm sure you've got those.:)


I think the moderators are going to ban anymore Falcon threads... :D
I'm beginning to think that'd be wise.

Grindgodgrind
28-11-2007, 12:37
I like cheese, it goes well with crackers, and it's smashing on toast.

Captain Micha
28-11-2007, 13:03
*expects in any moment for those 6 threads to dominate the first page.*

xinsanityx
28-11-2007, 13:32
i love that there are so many threads out there complaining about the falcons. It just shows how stupid people are.

Go take a look at the GT statistics for 2007, since the new eldar codex came out, and you'll find that tyranids and space marines get way more armies into the top 10 than eldar. In fact, in the 3 gt's this year, only 3 times did an eldar army break in to the top 10. Compare that to 8 space marine armies, and 7 tyranid armies breaking into the top 10.

The eldar haven't even gotten a spot in the top 5 yet. First it was the starcannon, now its the falcon. People won't be happy until the eldar are completely uncompetitive and unplayable.

Captain Micha
28-11-2007, 13:39
I think that has more to do with how few Eldar players there are, and partly also due to sportsmanship scores getting them blasted for having cheese lists. (yes I know the irony right?)

xinsanityx
28-11-2007, 13:55
I think that has more to do with how few Eldar players there are, and partly also due to sportsmanship scores getting them blasted for having cheese lists. (yes I know the irony right?)

actually eldar armies are pretty popular and if you look at the gt statistics you'll see there are probably more eldar players than tyranid players. You'll also notice that the best sportsman award for the baltimroe tourney went to an eldar player and an eldar player got the 3rd place sportsmanship award in las vegas, and eldar sportsmanship scores are on average the same as all the other armies.

Throw all the excuses at it that you want to, but the fact is that falcons are not that big of a game breaker. They are frustrating, and that's probably why people dont' like them, but i'll put forth that 3 squads of the new plague marines are even more frustrating, and are a bigger game breaker than 3 falcons

Voodoo Boyz
28-11-2007, 14:04
actually eldar armies are pretty popular and if you look at the gt statistics you'll see there are probably more eldar players than tyranid players. You'll also notice that the best sportsman award for the baltimroe tourney went to an eldar player and an eldar player got the 3rd place sportsmanship award in las vegas, and eldar sportsmanship scores are on average the same as all the other armies.

Sort the results by Battlescore and/or Victory Points.

Now do it for events after the old Chaos dex got removed from play, and you'll start to see how well the Eldar do now that the top two lists in the game is down to them and Nids, with Marines, Chaos, & Tau hoping to compete with them.

xinsanityx
28-11-2007, 14:12
Sort the results by Battlescore and/or Victory Points.

Now do it for events after the old Chaos dex got removed from play, and you'll start to see how well the Eldar do now that the top two lists in the game is down to them and Nids, with Marines, Chaos, & Tau hoping to compete with them.

well if you twirl your finger, close your eyes, scroll down the list for 3 seconds....:rolleyes:

Add more and more stipulations and speculation and you spin any fact into fiction.

And people have been complaining about falcons since before the old chaos dex got removed from play

edit: even by sorting the list by battle scores/ sportsmanship it doesn't change anything. The numbers stay virtually identical. Either way, those stat sheets don't lie, few eldar players in the top 10, and their sportsmanship scores are no different than anyone elses. I'm done here, just look at the stat sheets

Captain Micha
28-11-2007, 14:19
Actually thats simply sorting it by wins, that's not a "stipulation" he said by vps, not sportsmanship.

Weezeh
28-11-2007, 14:36
Kinda makes you think they see the word "Falcon" in the thread title and then just start typing away. :)

Indeed. Apparently "Falcon" is to a 40k-er what the bell was to Pavlov's dogs. :rolleyes:

Zerosoul
28-11-2007, 15:45
Sort the results by Battlescore and/or Victory Points.

Now do it for events after the old Chaos dex got removed from play, and you'll start to see how well the Eldar do now that the top two lists in the game is down to them and Nids, with Marines, Chaos, & Tau hoping to compete with them.

BUT ASSAULT CANNONS AND LASPLAS AND MECHTAU AND FISH OF FURY AND MONOLITHS AND AND AND AND AND

Sorry. I channelled the essence of 40k general for a moment there.

Voodoo Boyz. It's okay. Really. We understand you think the Falcon/Harlie spam lists are broken. You say it literally every time someone mentions the word Falcon. How fortunate for you, then, that you play Orks, who now have by far the most methods of utterly neutering said lists(hi Grabba Klaw/Rokkit spam/etc. etc.)! But you're kind of missing the point of the thread, I think.

I once set about to do one of these threads compiling a list of complaints about Marines. Hats off to Orbital for actually going through with it, since I couldn't stomach it after about half an hour of digging through old posts.

Imperialis_Dominatus
28-11-2007, 16:09
Voodoo wasn't quite missing the point of the thread. He was going with the flow of the conversation, which started with someone else missing the point of the thread and stating yet another argument about the Falcon (for or against, doesn't matter, this thread is not another argument, but a statement of fact by a respected member: we talk about it too much).

Sekhmet
28-11-2007, 17:16
Are falcons as bad as fireprisms? or is it vice versa?

ChaosMaster
28-11-2007, 17:27
The Eldar Falcon with its holofields and its ability to carry dangerous passengers... everyone seems to have an opinion. What makes me think so? Take a look at these threads I've seen in the last few days which deal directly with the issue: ...

It's not that I think any one poster should have the right to tell other posters what they can and can't start a thread about. I'm just saying "I think we've got it covered. How about keeping the anti-Falcon stuff contained within recent (and still ongoing) discussions... or maybe giving it a break completely for a while?"

Best regards to you all.
Finally, a voice of sanity cries out alone in the dark! Nurture it, people, nurture it. ;) Now let me add my own voice to this anguished cry for sanity.

A lot of 40K players have been buying, collecting, building and painting models for 40K for many years. We purchase the models we like. The rules for those models change every time a new Codex is issued. Sometimes these revisions mean that the models become reduced in game effectiveness and everyone says they are "nerfed" and on other revisions those models become more game effective and everyone says they are "cheesy". This applies to models in all the different 40K army ranges. For example, Chaos Possessed and Spawn are supposedly now "nerfed" while Falcons since last year are suddenly "cheesy".

Well, for those of us who buy the models we like and who use them occasionally in games, all the whining about "nerfed" and "cheesy" is superfluous, because we still like the models and still play with them regardless of the changes to the rules for those models in the latest Codex. I have models in most of my armies that are made of lead from the early 1990s still fighting alongside newer pewter and plastic creations. Many of the plastic models, like the FALCON, are more than 10 years old now since GW first introduced them. We have no control over what GW gives us for the latest rules for our models, but we still try to enjoy them no matter which way the rules go and it does not add to the fun of playing with them to hear a bunch of whining babies complaining that our models are "cheese" when we also play with them when they are "nerfed". Get over it, the Codex rules will change again in 3 to 5 years and then everyone will have something else to whine about. :D

ChaosMaster
28-11-2007, 17:30
Are falcons as bad as fireprisms? or is it vice versa?
No, Kirk is better than Picard and Superman is better than Batman. Oh, sorry, wrong nerd debate. ;)

Count Sinister
28-11-2007, 17:33
Well said, Orbital, and ChaosMaster! It's the same reason the I get irritated with discussions about certain units/models being too powerful/not powerful enough. I buy the models because I like the look of them. I enjoy converting and painting them, and then using them on the tabletop in a game. But the game rules for the models I like are the ones that GW has given us - what choice do I have? I'll play nice models, even if they are bad in the game, but conversely, even if a unit is the best in the game, I won't play it if I think the model is ugly. Endless discussions about how a unit is nerfed or cheesed don't add anything to the enjoyment of the game - on the contrary in fact.
I'm happy that other people feel the same way, and took the time to say it.

Xenocidal Maniac
28-11-2007, 17:37
Hey, um, there is yet another Falcon thread to put on the list, entitled...

Wait for it...

"How do you Falcons to be like... "

Whatever that means. :rolleyes:

Sekhmet
28-11-2007, 17:41
No, Kirk is better than Picard and Superman is better than Batman. Oh, sorry, wrong nerd debate. ;)

How is that related in any way, whatsoever?

I was asking for a comparison of two units in the game, not of two captains in star trek or two super heroes in some pointless argument on a fictional crossing of two characters, I'm asking about in-game performance that can be measured.

:rolleyes:

ChaosMaster
28-11-2007, 17:44
How is that related in any way, whatsoever?

I was asking for a comparison of two units in the game, not of two captains in star trek or two super heroes in some pointless argument on a fictional crossing of two characters, I'm asking about in-game performance that can be measured.

:rolleyes:
No sense of humour apparently and you missed the point as well. They are two very different units, the Fire Prism and the regular Falcon and therefore, what is the point in comparing them? It is pointless. Would you compare a Whirlwind to a Razorback? They both have a heavy weapon on them, but one is clearly meant for a completely different tactical purpose than the other.

Oh, and when asking for a comparison of functionality, asking if one thing is "as bad as" another is hardly specific or articulate enough to likely draw a specific desired response. The question is meaningless unless all the people reading the question know what "as bad as" is intended to mean, which is somewhat unlikely.

Voodoo Boyz
28-11-2007, 17:49
BUT ASSAULT CANNONS AND LASPLAS AND MECHTAU AND FISH OF FURY AND MONOLITHS AND AND AND AND AND

Sorry. I channelled the essence of 40k general for a moment there.

Voodoo Boyz. It's okay. Really. We understand you think the Falcon/Harlie spam lists are broken. You say it literally every time someone mentions the word Falcon. How fortunate for you, then, that you play Orks, who now have by far the most methods of utterly neutering said lists(hi Grabba Klaw/Rokkit spam/etc. etc.)! But you're kind of missing the point of the thread, I think.

I once set about to do one of these threads compiling a list of complaints about Marines. Hats off to Orbital for actually going through with it, since I couldn't stomach it after about half an hour of digging through old posts.

For the record I think a lot of lists are broken, I even play some of them at tournaments. In fact I'm waiting for the new style list I've got cooked up for Orks at the GT's next year to be called broken, because it probably is. ;)

That said I really just hate the Eldar Holo-armies. Because the army is litterally Falcons + Cargo, and out of all the other broken lists it's the most annoying and unfun to play against.

The main reason I post about it is because I see people go ridiculous lengths to justify it somehow - which is so stupid it's almost offensive. I've done the same thing to people who defend Assault Cannon spam lists or Nidzilla, but I don't post as often on that because at least those lists aren't as annoying to play against. :chrome:

Sekhmet
28-11-2007, 18:06
No sense of humour apparently and you missed the point as well. They are two very different units, the Fire Prism and the regular Falcon and therefore, what is the point in comparing them? It is pointless. Would you compare a Whirlwind to a Razorback? They both have a heavy weapon on them, but one is clearly meant for a completely different tactical purpose than the other.

Falcons and Fire Prisms have the same defensive capabilities, they're similar costs, and they take up Heavy Support slots.

You don't have to decide between a whirlwind and razorback.

Oh and they're both scoring units, and thus gigantic point denial after they lose their weapons / dropped off cargo

Orbital
28-11-2007, 18:07
One of the other dangers of the whole "overpowered Falcon" debate, like the "rending/assault cannon" or "nidzilla" debates before it, is that it's easy to lose perspective and get, well... upset over it. In the little petri dish of Warseer, it's easy to let your brain start believing that this issue is a big one. If you find yourself starting to get hot-under-the-collar or even a little uppity about it, try this: Find a friend who doesn't play Warhammer and explain to that person about Falcons and Holo-fields, and try to inject as much anger and indignation into the discussion as possible. When they look at you like you've totally lost your mind because you are torquing out over a little plastic space ship, you'll suddenly find yourself with an abundance of perspective on the matter. In fact, you'll probably feel like the biggest dork in the world.

Voodoo Boyz
28-11-2007, 18:14
Not that I've seen anyone (nor myself) get physically angry over the abusive lists, especially in online discussions, but...

Most of the times I've even begun to discuss the details of it have been with people who try and claim that "oh it's not unbalanced at all". My favorite was when it was being called an "orchestra of tactical genius".

I don't know about you, but I enjoy telling people they're full of it when they state such fabrications. It relieves stress. :D

Orbital
28-11-2007, 18:19
Not that I've seen anyone (nor myself) get physically angry over the abusive lists, especially in online discussions, but...

Most of the times I've even begun to discuss the details of it have been with people who try and claim that "oh it's not unbalanced at all". My favorite was when it was being called an "orchestra of tactical genius".

I don't know about you, but I enjoy telling people they're full of it when they state such fabrications. It relieves stress. :D
VB... you're a good guy and I like reading your posts, but you're seriously one of the most Falcon-stressed people I've ever come across in all my travels. No offense intended.

Ianos
28-11-2007, 18:29
Go take a look at the GT statistics for 2007, since the new eldar codex came out, and you'll find that tyranids and space marines get way more armies into the top 10 than eldar. In fact, in the 3 gt's this year, only 3 times did an eldar army break in to the top 10. Compare that to 8 space marine armies, and 7 tyranid armies breaking into the top 10.



I just checked all gt results up to 2004 and only in 2004 and in few tournaments can we find Eldar in the top 3 and all in the craftworld era. Post craftworld there are hardly any Eldar in the frist 10 (or even more!) sometimes. Quite unexpectedly there are space marines (who are supposed to be drowned due to anti-marine readiness by all) and Tyranids (and by checking out some pics we are not talking Nidzilla only here). Even IG, Orks or DE are more likely to get better spots than Eldar and we are talking about GTs here where terrain can often be non-existent which can spell doom to the DE!

By the way Gonka Koff just posted a thread in the tactics section with more number crunching on the falcon and included the armament destroyed factor. According to that it takes on average 7 glances to immob. it instead of nine we all usually think about. Finally on personal experience i have played and faced the trio falcon-skimmer army many times and i have neutered it with ease. Even with minimal anti-tank all i have to do is glance 3 times and i am ok, as long as i am prepared to face the payload which no matter what will be at most 18 t3 low save troops. In the last tournament i even faced harlies and they where hardly that impressive, yeah they got rending and all that nice obscurement but a hundred things can go wrong with them, like blowing a tank in cc only to die from the explosion, or killing one too many troops in the first cc and staying in the open for a good ol rapid fire.

Really, i come here on the forums all this time and everyone describes things as if in an ideal world, when in the tabletop one can rarely place his minies in area terrain in exactly 2" from one another. Everyone talks in straight numbers as if there is no variable vehicle sizes and as if every single model placement does not count. Take it to the battlefield and its a whole new thing altogether. But even with mathammer, seriously now, the falcon is simply OK and gets the fragile Eldar there, then spends half or even more of the game shaken and with no guns. If someone cannot take facing 18 pointy eared fragile and specialized troops then i rest my case.

Cry of the Wind
28-11-2007, 18:36
I think Voodoo Boyz hit on why there are so many of these threads. The Falcon list no matter how you cut it is just anoying to play against. Even if it doesn't massacare you it still probably wasn't enjoyable to play against. This reason above all others is why I stopped using it. The look of frustration on my opponents face that had nothing to do with my tactical genius got old. Because it is so anoying people want to vent and complain about it.

All this talk of GT scores and what not is nice but at the end of the day if one player isn't having fun becasue of an unit that causes undo frustration each and every game it is in, you're going to see some complaining (ok fine, a lot of it...).

Voodoo Boyz
28-11-2007, 18:55
VB... you're a good guy and I like reading your posts, but you're seriously one of the most Falcon-stressed people I've ever come across in all my travels. No offense intended.

None taken. I get that a lot, apparently I come across a lot harsher than I ever intend. Though I won't lie, I do so thoroughly enjoy debunking people who like to make false claims. ;)

That and boy do I ever hate Eldar power lists, both from the last edition and the new one. Play a few games against them with straight up 3rd ed Codex Orks, and you'll understand. Now do this when you start 40k and you have my experience with Eldar. ;)

Especially when you hear that "Eldar are fragile, Orks are the Tough Race" and then see T8 3+ Save support and Tanks that just didn't care if you shot them (like even the old Falcon, which was easier to kill than the present one but still stupidly tough as nails). And then you compare it to your "tough army" options and you start to just not appreciate any kind of complaints that would come from so many Eldar players online. ;)

So yes, I'm biased against the pointy eared ones, so it makes debunking people who defend the Falcon cheese extra fun. :chrome:

EDIT: I should point out that since moving on to starting my own abusive tournament lists (Marines), you learn how to beat the pointy eared gitz. But the thing that really gets me is that people say silly things like "oh Las/Plas armies get beat by Falcons", which is just utter lies, because the only way I can reliably beat the Eldar lists with Marines is with the Las/Plas+Assault Cannon Marine Abusive armies.

It's just one more gripe about the conversations that always come online from "Falcon defenders". They assume you don't know what you're doing when you play against the Eldar cheese lists. The problem is that it takes cheese to beat cheese most of the time if both players know what they're doing.

Vineas
28-11-2007, 20:27
I'm one of those that takes Falcons because I love the model. Truly the most stunning vehicle model in 40k. Hell, I doubt even Forgeworld could improve it's looks.

That said, I have run 2 falcons but I don't give them holofields or vectored engines. They are transports for my Dragons but I keep them simple as I don't want a 215pt transport/gunship. Too many eggs in one basket. I use cover and speed to get where I have to go. If I make it bravo to me, if I don't then bravo to my opponent for reacting like he is supposed to/should.

I'm glad I don't play in tournies because I don't want my opponents to start moaning the very second I put a model on the table, even before they can see my falcons are for the most part bare naked. :)

Ianos
28-11-2007, 22:14
So all this anti-falconism essentially stems from the frustration and bias people feel and not from real tournament or victory results. And on top of that even Voodoo Boyz admits that marine weapon spam can beat the falcon. My point of view, out of 100 games i have played, in 80 my opponents just place their MEQs down and start shooting and assaulting if anything gets close. At least I who play Eldar most of the time, have to think and make some moves for a change even with my utterly broken falcons at hand. Maybe i am no tactical genius and maybe the falcons are broken but they are in no way more broken than other combinations other races use for tournaments and statistics prove just that.

And i really wonder, has anyone ever thought of the other side of the coin, the player who actually uses a skimmer force? And believe it or not not all players use 3 falcons with 3 harlies and OMG CH33Z! (An army i have yet to encounter btw...) How frustrated can a guy feel when he finally unloads his 6 banshees from the transport to assault their most dedicated enemy only not to kill 3 of them and then they always regroup LALALALA and cut them with fists, pw or regroup and shoot them to death? The Eldar guy can do all the moving, hunting, specialist assignment he wants and the Marine fella just sits there throwing dice and wins the tournament. NICE!

Voodoo Boyz
28-11-2007, 22:30
So all this anti-falconism essentially stems from the frustration and bias people feel and not from real tournament or victory results. And on top of that even Voodoo Boyz admits that marine weapon spam can beat the falcon. My point of view, out of 100 games i have played, in 80 my opponents just place their MEQs down and start shooting and assaulting if anything gets close. At least I who play Eldar most of the time, have to think and make some moves for a change even with my utterly broken falcons at hand. Maybe i am no tactical genius and maybe the falcons are broken but they are in no way more broken than other combinations other races use for tournaments and statistics prove just that.

And i really wonder, has anyone ever thought of the other side of the coin, the player who actually uses a skimmer force? And believe it or not not all players use 3 falcons with 3 harlies and OMG CH33Z! (An army i have yet to encounter btw...) How frustrated can a guy feel when he finally unloads his 6 banshees from the transport to assault their most dedicated enemy only not to kill 3 of them and then they always regroup LALALALA and cut them with fists, pw or regroup and shoot them to death? The Eldar guy can do all the moving, hunting, specialist assignment he wants and the Marine fella just sits there throwing dice and wins the tournament. NICE!

The reason I said "Sort by battle score" is that there you really see which armies did well via battle points. The tournament "winners" for many events is determined a lot by painting, sportsmanship, and to be honest, luck of the draw.

The winner of the Chicago GT played a "Stealer Shock" style list with not a whole lot of anti-tank. He was asked "what do you do vs. Tau or Eldar skimmer lists?" and his answer was "Lose". He won the tournament with 5 Massacres because he didn't play a single Tau or Eldar army.

The point is that if you want to see which armies are "better than others" go look at the tournament stats and sort by battle. The best battle score winner (won best general) at Vegas was an Eldar player with 3 Holofield tanks and min guys in max skimmers. He placed overall in like the 20's, but won best general with his huge battlescore.

Look, if you see a LOT of threads complaining about Falcons, it's probably a safe bet to assume that there might, just might be a problem with a unit that has a good chance of surviving all damage that gets thrown at it while being able to deliver troops with little to no risk throughout a game.

Just like the Asscannon or Las/Plas spam, or IW spam of the old Chaos Dex - people bitch when there is a problem.

Personally, I play broken lists for fun at tournaments sometimes. It's not the only way I play, but I play a lot of "competitive" games of 40k against good players with really, really hard army lists.

So when I read people saying that "Oh Falcons aren't abusive", it's highly irritating, because I know they are and so does every other player who plays 40k a lot, competitively, and understands how to play the game to win.

I've always said that they can be beaten. Sometimes it takes quite a bit of luck to pull if off, sometimes it just takes playing as Necrons ( :skull: ). I've beaten them with my own Min/Max Marine list, quite a few times, at tournaments no less.

Problem is that if I took my "for fun" lists like the ones in my Sig against a 3 Holofield list, I'd get creamed if the other player knew what he was doing.

My point about why I personally chose to harp on the Falcon cheese is because I hate playing against the list. It's probably one of the least fun broken lists to play against, and that's saying something. That and there are so many Eldar players who will fight to the death to somehow justify that "it's not overpowered", which as I've said before is just so annoying to hear.

That's like me going around saying "5 Man Termy squads with 2 Assault Cannons aren't overpowered" or "Landspeeder Tornado's are fairly pointed" or "6 Man Las/Plas is tactical genius because it's the best loadout available against all comers and it's not overpowered".

Stuff like that is a crock and most people posting such tripe about the triple holofield lists should know better, especially if they played the list so much.

Cry of the Wind
29-11-2007, 00:23
So all this anti-falconism essentially stems from the frustration and bias people feel and not from real tournament or victory results.

This and some real tournament results too. The thing to remember is that even if they don't win top marks there is still the factor that the Falcon player may not have lost a game either. It is hard for anyone to get a real massacare (I say real because I know there are a few times where I have seen people say "oh yeah you massacared me" when really they only had a major victory or whatever the scale is) and those are the way to the top of the heap. Just becasue you weren't top 10 doesn't mean you lost games, you just won by a smaller margin. I've used my triple falcon list in many many tournaments and I only lost 2 games total with the list. That doesn't mean I won best general each time though as my win margin wasn't big enough all the time to get that spot (not to mention some soft score dinging for various reasons, i.e. the other guy hated my list and hated my guts for bringing it). This is where a lot of the frustration comes from, even games where I was beaten soundly by the look of the table, at the end with VP calculation I pulled a minor win or draw because of the victory points the falcons protected and the objectives they claimed.

Ianos
29-11-2007, 02:23
The reason I said "Sort by battle score" is that there

you really see which armies did well via battle points. The tournament "winners"

for many events is determined a lot by painting, sportsmanship, and to be honest,

luck of the draw.


------------Which everyone has to go through even those who got the best positions

instead of the Eldar, and by the way most Eldar armies are usually well painted

from what i have seen.

The winner of the Chicago GT played a "Stealer Shock" style list with not a whole

lot of anti-tank. He was asked "what do you do vs. Tau or Eldar skimmer lists?"

and his answer was "Lose". He won the tournament with 5 Massacres because he

didn't play a single Tau or Eldar army.


------------That can be the same answer from someone who plays 3 serpents and 2

falcons and a couple of vypers when he is asked, "what if you play necrons?" Also

extreme lists that are encountered in tournaments are supposed to work like rock,

paper, scissors like it or not.

The point is that if you want to see which armies are "better than others" go look

at the tournament stats and sort by battle. The best battle score winner (won

best general) at Vegas was an Eldar player with 3 Holofield tanks and min guys in

max skimmers. He placed overall in like the 20's, but won best general with his

huge battlescore.

------------A specific case proves nothing, i can say the same for 10 other

marines players.

Look, if you see a LOT of threads complaining about Falcons, it's probably a safe

bet to assume that there might, just might be a problem with a unit that

has a good chance of surviving all damage that gets thrown at it while being able

to deliver troops with little to no risk throughout a game.


------------In Nazi Germany everyone was complaining about the Jews and they of

course where far from right (except in political beliefs). And i as i said the

falcon is far from undamageable it is simply pretty safe for those inside. Also

the troops it delivers can be t3 4+ at best so really this thing gets too old.

Just like the Asscannon or Las/Plas spam, or IW spam of the old Chaos Dex - people

bitch when there is a problem.

---------------Really, haven`t seen any of the asscannon las/lasma bitching

lately, instead i log on and all i see is cheesy falcons which are for some reason

always filled with 18 harlies and in the perfect world of forums that is

unbeatable. Well reality hits us with a stick in the face when we go statistical

and tabletop.

Personally, I play broken lists for fun at tournaments sometimes. It's not the

only way I play, but I play a lot of "competitive" games of 40k against good

players with really, really hard army lists.

So when I read people saying that "Oh Falcons aren't abusive", it's highly

irritating, because I know they are and so does every other player who plays 40k a

lot, competitively, and understands how to play the game to win.


-----------You can get irritated all you want, you yourself admitted your view is

biased and that falcons can be beaten by respective cheese (and actually IMHO not

only by cheese...)

I've always said that they can be beaten. Sometimes it takes quite a bit of luck

to pull if off, sometimes it just takes playing as Necrons ( :skull: ). I've

beaten them with my own Min/Max Marine list, quite a few times, at tournaments no

less.

Problem is that if I took my "for fun" lists like the ones in my Sig against a 3

Holofield list, I'd get creamed if the other player knew what he was doing.



----------So am i when i take an army with no anti-tank and someone shows up with

3 dreads or 3 russes. So what?

My point about why I personally chose to harp on the Falcon cheese is because I

hate playing against the list. It's probably one of the least fun broken lists to

play against, and that's saying something. That and there are so many Eldar

players who will fight to the death to somehow justify that "it's not

overpowered", which as I've said before is just so annoying to hear.


----------I understand what you are saying man, i am not gonna say it is not

overpowered but i can always give you examples of other things that are far more

difficult to beat. Hey you have every right to be annoyed with the Eldar

playstyle, it is hit and run after all and can really **** you of some times but

that does not meant that:
a)It takes no tactics to play Eldar even the trio falcon
b)It is a broken list falcons or not.
c)There are no countermeasures to it.

That's like me going around saying "5 Man Termy squads with 2 Assault Cannons

aren't overpowered" or "Landspeeder Tornado's are fairly pointed" or "6 Man

Las/Plas is tactical genius because it's the best loadout available against all

comers and it's not overpowered".

----------Actually i couldn't care less, even the so called cheese lists can be

broken by balanced ones with normal luck if you play right IMHO.

Stuff like that is a crock and most people posting such tripe about the triple

holofield lists should know better, especially if they played the list so

much.


The fact that it annoys you or anyone, does not make the falcon imbalanced to the

extent it is stated to be. Just because other armies give their opponents a chance

to kill some and wound some but in the end crush them does not make those armies

more balanced either. It is the way the falcon displays its power that annoys you

all and not its actual extreme overpoweredness, get over it and find ways to face

it in real life.

Ianos
29-11-2007, 02:28
This and some real tournament results too. The thing to remember is that even if they don't win top marks there is still the factor that the Falcon player may not have lost a game either. It is hard for anyone to get a real massacare (I say real because I know there are a few times where I have seen people say "oh yeah you massacared me" when really they only had a major victory or whatever the scale is) and those are the way to the top of the heap. Just becasue you weren't top 10 doesn't mean you lost games, you just won by a smaller margin. I've used my triple falcon list in many many tournaments and I only lost 2 games total with the list. That doesn't mean I won best general each time though as my win margin wasn't big enough all the time to get that spot (not to mention some soft score dinging for various reasons, i.e. the other guy hated my list and hated my guts for bringing it). This is where a lot of the frustration comes from, even games where I was beaten soundly by the look of the table, at the end with VP calculation I pulled a minor win or draw because of the victory points the falcons protected and the objectives they claimed.


So first you are admitting that even with trio falcons you usually don't win by a great margin and then you are trying to prove that they are overpowered? The sound fact remains, not many Eldar are in such high spots to deserve such a bitching all the time. So yeah maybe the list allows you to stay safe if you play right and i am not going to tactical genius but some people don't even have to do that to get to high spots apparently, cause no matter how you put it the other lists don't just stay safe, they massacre people left and right and get to the top.

AngryAngel
29-11-2007, 02:51
I have an idea..to any who field a falcon. We can string them up..and burn them alive for their heresy. Never play them..just kill them and all they hold dear. It seems a bit extreme..but if it would stop all the threads about this..I think its the needed step we've all over looked.

Whos with me on that ?

Cry of the Wind
29-11-2007, 03:19
So first you are admitting that even with trio falcons you usually don't win by a great margin and then you are trying to prove that they are overpowered? The sound fact remains, not many Eldar are in such high spots to deserve such a bitching all the time. So yeah maybe the list allows you to stay safe if you play right and i am not going to tactical genius but some people don't even have to do that to get to high spots apparently, cause no matter how you put it the other lists don't just stay safe, they massacre people left and right and get to the top.

I don't win by a great margin because I'm facing other 'cheesy' armies in the top tables in tournaments. I left that out which admittedly weakens my original point. Also I still have many best generals because of the army list and generally am in the top 3 in all the tournaments I've played (the execeptions being when I lost those two games). The problem with the falcon lies with people needing to either max cheesy their army or bring a tailored list to stand a chance. This is frustrating and when combined with rolling a 1 and a 6 all game long the falcon gets the bad rep it deserves.

Ianos
29-11-2007, 04:21
Yes but apparently, the other armies at the GTs do win by a greater margin than the Eldar and their trio falcon. And if i was to refer from personal experience like you do i can tell you that despite the fact that i play trio falcons most of the time, and despite the fact that people say that i am very good at it, i don't easily get high spots at tourneys because i rarely win by a large margin which other armies like Necrons and Nids or Chaos constantly seem to do.
Also in your personal experience you should add the possibility of yourself being a good general and an expert with Eldar a fact that can distinguish you from others for two main reasons. The first being the fact that others are may not be experts (usually most of those you have encountered) with the armies they present on tournaments and the second being that the Eldar are meant to provide an advantage to the expert player trio or not.

Cry of the Wind
29-11-2007, 05:02
Yes but apparently, the other armies at the GTs do win by a greater margin than the Eldar and their trio falcon. And if i was to refer from personal experience like you do i can tell you that despite the fact that i play trio falcons most of the time, and despite the fact that people say that i am very good at it, i don't easily get high spots at tourneys because i rarely win by a large margin which other armies like Necrons and Nids or Chaos constantly seem to do.
Also in your personal experience you should add the possibility of yourself being a good general and an expert with Eldar a fact that can distinguish you from others for two main reasons. The first being the fact that others are may not be experts (usually most of those you have encountered) with the armies they present on tournaments and the second being that the Eldar are meant to provide an advantage to the expert player trio or not.

I'll admit your making very good points about the Falcon in tournaments facing generals who may not be experts and it being fielded by those who are. It really is a hard thing to gauge with statistics since those factors can't be quantified (at least I don't know how to and there isn't any data to work with since general skill is not recorded in any format besides win/loss rate).

Local enviroment is a factor too, I know the tournaments I've played in Edmonton, Red Deer and Calgary are different from the ones in Toronto and Windsor. Players in different regions have their own styles of playing and have their own popular builds of the month. The Falcon list seems pretty good against all of them in my experince and it was reviled by all groups (granted some wished it banned while others wished they thought of it first).

I personally still find it hard to believe that there is a debate over the power of the Falcon let alone the 7-8 (or is it 9 now...) threads on the issue. When there is such consensus amoung all of the players I have ever met (note I say met, not talked to on the net) and 100% agreement from all the players I've used the Falcons on, I personally wonder why there is doubt that the Falcon is not as powerful as its reputation says it is. Once again I'll stress that I'm talking from experince with people in person and over the gaming table, and not just a small group I always play with either, but rather gamers from across Canada. I'll admit my sample group may be small relative to the total gamer community in Canada but still I've never met someone who told me Falcons are balanced and this combined with my tabletop experince is the basis for my opinion.

As a side I think another one of the reasons why these keep coming up is that the internet is simply a good place to vent frustrations over one thing or another. I admit I'll vent a frustration over certain things here on WS that I'd never make a big deal of in person as Orbital points out nicely most people will think you're crazy for getting so worked up over something so silly (other gamers included). Chances are I will never lose sleep over a broken army or some other injustice of the Warhammer hobby but it can be a fun little distraction to discuss the offending issue.

Edit: Orbital, your thread may be slowly turning into a full on debate over the power of Falcons but I find the mood that you've started in this thread has produced a much more interesting enviroment to discuss Falcon related issues that has yet gone down to the route the others have.

Orbital
29-11-2007, 05:46
Edit: Orbital, your thread may be slowly turning into a full on debate over the power of Falcons but I find the mood that you've started in this thread has produced a much more interesting enviroment to discuss Falcon related issues that has yet gone down to the route the others have.
Then I'm glad. After all, if we don't have interesting discussion here then what's the point right?

If nothing else, it illustrates that we're not ready to stop talking about Falcons yet... and so be it.

Omniassiah
29-11-2007, 06:18
The winner of the Chicago GT played a "Stealer Shock" style list with not a whole lot of anti-tank. He was asked "what do you do vs. Tau or Eldar skimmer lists?" and his answer was "Lose". He won the tournament with 5 Massacres because he didn't play a single Tau or Eldar army.

That comment doesn't surprise me. I take an all Autocannon IG list with 2 anti-tank squads with missile launchers. I've been asked the same question only with 3 monoliths/landraiders and my answer was... I lose.

Sometimes you just have to accept that your army may have a perfect counter to it. Mech tau/mech Eldar are a joke for me. I hate playing them its so easy. Most of us can look at our army lists after a while and know exactly what we will have a weakness against. Some of use try and fix it others sit there and say oh well I have to kill my theme to defend against it ... oh well.

Like I said earlier pick the people who you play against. If they area a win at all cost player then well I can find other things to do with my time and I suggest you do as well. if enough people do that then they'll either deal with having very few opponents or they'll stop taken those lists and start playing for the fun of the game. And yes this can work for tournaments as well, GTs make up a small minority of tournaments in the hobby. I know my LGS runs at least twice as many tournies as US GTs. Not all of them have the same rules, Heck we've had the king "cheese" tournament for the past 4 years. Where you actually get MORE points for the more Cheesed out power-gaming list you can field. What the tournies 1500 points and you brought Ann'grath... well full points for you you cheesy git!!

Vineas
29-11-2007, 07:00
OT but speaking of theme I intend to do a 10th Company army and bring it to Apoc size. Nowhere does it say that Scouts are a Finite number like how the other companies are organized. It's a random # and while it may not make much sense to have 4-6,000pts worth of Scouts along with a smattering of a few other units for Apoc I think it would be a great amount of fun. Might even make a Titanhammer formation to add some assault punch to said army.

On topic we can all pray and hope that the "OMG FALCONS ARE BROKEN" threads stop cropping up but until SMF changes or Holo/VE/Stone combo changes for the next Eldar 'dex it will not happen, sadly enough. :(

Orbital
29-11-2007, 07:27
OT but speaking of theme I intend to do a 10th Company army and bring it to Apoc size. Nowhere does it say that Scouts are a Finite number like how the other companies are organized. It's a random # and while it may not make much sense to have 4-6,000pts worth of Scouts along with a smattering of a few other units for Apoc I think it would be a great amount of fun. Might even make a Titanhammer formation to add some assault punch to said army.
Wow. You weren't kidding about the OT part.

Cry of the Wind
29-11-2007, 09:20
OT but speaking of theme I intend to do a 10th Company army and bring it to Apoc size. Nowhere does it say that Scouts are a Finite number like how the other companies are organized. It's a random # and while it may not make much sense to have 4-6,000pts worth of Scouts along with a smattering of a few other units for Apoc I think it would be a great amount of fun. Might even make a Titanhammer formation to add some assault punch to said army.

I'm not one to make completly off topic comments on other peoples posting but this forced me to break with that...

Really how the heck did this thread strike you as a good place to ask a background question on Space Marines Scouts so you could build an apoc army...and then something random about adding a titanhammer formation...like dude....

:wtf:

FuSs
29-11-2007, 11:14
Everytime i build an army list i try to balance it against the following lists. At least thus far that i stand a theoretical chance against these lists:

1) Nidzilla - lots of tough wounds, shooty
2) Stealer shock - very fast with awesome close combat
3) Double Lash Prince + 9 Oblits - annoying, tough and shooty
4) Falcon trio w/ quins and dragons - very mobile, VP denial
5) MEQ swarm w/ las/plas - shooty, slow, lots of 3+ save

As long as my list can beat these lists i'm pretty fine against any other list.
Am i more worried by falcons than by any of the other lists? Nope not really.
Tbh all i need is a couple of S7-8 hits per round to fare well against it.
Perfect solution? Nope not really but i have to think about the other 4 list variants as well and they take more preparation.

@1) Up to 35 T6-7 wounds w/ 2+ and 3+ save. To beat that i need A LOT of firepower or close combat prowess
@2) Either i go mechanised or i need VERY good close combat units
@3) Psi Matrix, warding stones, ... without its not easy to deal with this list as 9 plasma templates hurt a lot if he can move your units
@4) Pretty easy to score a draw. If i wanna win i need fast things to catch his stuff. Need enough S7-8 to glance 3 times per round.
@5) Get into CC fast! Unless you are Tau you might have a hard time to outshoot it.

In my opinion the biggest problem is Nr 1 and Nr 3. They pack a lot of fire power and are really tough to crack.
Because of Nr 2 and 4 i'll most likely go mechanized. Nr 5 is pretty common but mechanized should help to get into CC.

This is my standard procedure when thinking about a new list.
Falcons are pee pee compared to my other problems ;)

Ianos
29-11-2007, 16:25
Exactly, falcons my be annoying in the way their rules work but in the end are far less "imbalanced" or powerful than the other lists of the same power level. I can personally feel 10 times more annoyed by the nidzilla----> You cannot shake it, really avoid it, it can hide easier, can still keep vps (oops my carnifex has gone to half wounds, lets hide my base into area terrain with move through cover and monstrous), can take on anything and any mission and has no real countermeasures.

But annoying<>imbalanced.

Voodoo Boyz
29-11-2007, 16:48
Exactly, falcons my be annoying in the way their rules work but in the end are far less "imbalanced" or powerful than the other lists of the same power level. I can personally feel 10 times more annoyed by the nidzilla----> You cannot shake it, really avoid it, it can hide easier, can still keep vps (oops my carnifex has gone to half wounds, lets hide my base into area terrain with move through cover and monstrous), can take on anything and any mission and has no real countermeasures.

But annoying<>imbalanced.

I disagree. And not just because I hate Eldar*. :p

The Falcon rules setup mechanics that will always put the opposing player in bad situations that they nearly can not control many times.

Nidzilla has counters, get them into CC and they fold. Most Nidzilla lists, especially at 1750 or 1500 don't have the CC prowess to save themselves. "Stealer Shock" style Nid armies actually have field days with Nidzilla, because they're so fast and so deadly to Fex's in CC.

Escalation also hurts Nidzilla a lot more than it hurts Mech Eldar, who generally want to wait around till the last half of the game to do much of anything in terms of unit commitment.

Play a mission against Mech Eldar with Objectives or Table Quarters. It's just not fun because nearly no matter what you do, they'll get those 3 objectives (at least) and the 3 quarters. Also the ability to move squads around with such impunity and deliver them where needed and when is one of the facets that's broken with Mech Eldar.

The other parts which include "tank shocking units of objectives" or a new one I'm just starting to see "building the skimmer wall" to segregate parts of an army (works against hordes) through tank shock and multi-Falcons that simply have little risk of getting so close to an enemy because of the "Hit on 6's in CC" rule along with the stupid resilience of Holofields+Spirit Stones.

That doesn't even get into the VP denial of easily 1k Points when you add in cargo. And the mobility to ensure that they can dump said cargo on turn 5 or turn 6 to let it do max damage with little to no time for retaliation while the Falcon zooms off elsewhere to claim objectives, and you start to see how bad Eldar can be when used well.

See the problem with "broken lists" is on three levels.

First level is that it lets n00bs or unskilled players to dominate other new opponents, easily.

Seccond level is that it lets somewhat mediocre players beat players of a higher caliber than themselves, because their lists are better.

The Third level is an extension of the second in that it lets highly skilled players dominate a game against equally skilled opponents.

The problem is that the power of a broken list gets worse the better a player is. So while a very skilled general with a decent army (ie. not completely cheese) may be able to beat a mediocre general using a triple falcon list, they stand to lose against an equally skilled general using the same triple falcon list.

If there is one thing positive I can say about "the brokenness" of Mech Eldar its that the list can suffer in the long run at a major tournament.

The problem with the list is that it literally revolves around the Falcons, so if an opponent "gets lucky" and downs one Holofield tank, things really start to go down hill for the Eldar player in terms of pulling a needed Massacre or even a Victory.

Now the problem is that "getting lucky" for a Mech Eldar opponent doesn't happen reliably, but in a 5 or 6 game tournament there's a decent chance that if you're facing other tough lists, one opponent is going to "get lucky".

*I should say that while I find it thoroughly enjoyable to "hate on Eldar" in online discussions, I must admit I've been tempted by the pointy eared gitz. Not so much to play them competitively, because I really do hate the Falcon lists, but for playing them as a less competitive force not using Holofield tanks.

And thinking about it, if I was an Eldar player and I got that tournament itch, I'd run the 3 Falcon list, because it's the only thing that lets the army stand up to Nidzilla or even a SAFH Marine style list.

Imperialis_Dominatus
29-11-2007, 16:58
Orbital, I really feel that this thread has turned into yet another argument about the power of Falcons. It may be in keeping with the spirit of the thread to add it to your list....

Voodoo Boyz
29-11-2007, 17:06
I'd like to think that I'm having a discussion rather than arguing about the Falcon.

Heck I even managed to say some nice things about the bloody thing in the last post! :p

I'll not forget the reasonableness you've instilled in me this thread Orbital...YOU SHALL RUE THE DAY YOU STARTED THIS!!!! :D

Ianos
29-11-2007, 18:17
I disagree. And not just because I hate Eldar*. :p

The Falcon rules setup mechanics that will always put the opposing player in bad situations that they nearly can not control many times.

--------It is simply one of the safe lists out there and pisses people of with the whole fighting the mists Eldar stlyle.

Nidzilla has counters, get them into CC and they fold. Most Nidzilla lists, especially at 1750 or 1500 don't have the CC prowess to save themselves. "Stealer Shock" style Nid armies actually have field days with Nidzilla, because they're so fast and so deadly to Fex's in CC.

------Nidzilla of the types i have encountered has virtually no counters, even if you make cc (which is very very difficult even for Mech Eldar and i know first hand) you have a Moma and a stealer squad cramming on you in no time. Not to mention that unless you get large p.fist squads the carnifex it simply won't go down and can kill more than 2 of your warriors every turn. My only real chance as Eldar is a striking scorpion exarch(and thats 50/50) and harlequins, who will then be shot down by any nid nearby. The only way to defeat Nidzilla as i have seen is for the opponent to make errors, anything else is just talk.

Escalation also hurts Nidzilla a lot more than it hurts Mech Eldar, who generally want to wait around till the last half of the game to do much of anything in terms of unit commitment.

--------The only way Nidzilla is really hurt by escalation is in recon where IF there is no random game length in the end nidzilla may not make it there. The Eldar with the new FAQ have to deploy all ground troops forcing the falcons to come and pick em up and revealing a lot to the enemy not to mention that not all lists come with an Autarch. Think about it, if two dakafexes show up and then 3 falcons the Eldar player has no reason to engage as all he will do is maybe one or two wounds if the fexes are in cover and then will be shaken and risk destruction. If he moves 24" to assault next turn, then the other fexes-momas-stealers show up making this impossible. All he can do is move around, trying to avoid fire and snatch the objective if the trully unkillable/shakeable monsters are not there in the first place, which they are going to be with move through cover, monstrous, cover saves and a much smaller footprint to hide. In fact the only lists i can think of that can face zilla straight up are marines with force weapons and fists, but in turn they lack the mobility/protection to get there easily, at least not as easily as the nidzilla player can point and click and game over.

Play a mission against Mech Eldar with Objectives or Table Quarters. It's just not fun because nearly no matter what you do, they'll get those 3 objectives (at least) and the 3 quarters. Also the ability to move squads around with such impunity and deliver them where needed and when is one of the facets that's broken with Mech Eldar.

------------Quarters, quarters.... whenever we talk falcons its quarters. Ok quarters, are there not other mobile/shooty lists like tau that can shake the falcons, kill the unloaded troops and snatch the quarters? Cannot Nidzilla go to the center and turn 6 spread out and deny after freely shooting the Mech for the whole game as i explained above? Don't space marines have land speeders which they can hide till turn 6 and move 24" to deny? And then surprise! Quarters is not the only mission in the game... How about take and hold, go take and hold a Nidzilla, or Marine(with tons of plasma, fists and las and ass.cannon) occupied center, with a Mech Eldar force, guess what you can't and sometimes you cannot score the same points even if you go last!


The other parts which include "tank shocking units of objectives" or a new one I'm just starting to see "building the skimmer wall" to segregate parts of an army (works against hordes) through tank shock and multi-Falcons that simply have little risk of getting so close to an enemy because of the "Hit on 6's in CC" rule along with the stupid resilience of Holofields+Spirit Stones.

--------Tank shocked units are not necessarily moved away from the objective. Tank shock risks death or glory and after you have taken 10 glances you will have second thoughts. Area terrain blocks it, units in transports cannot be shocked and a thousand things can go wrong. Most importantly, the Eldar are not the only race that can tank shock, neither the only one with 24" moving skimmers. Now about the skimmer wall, it is a good tactic and i have used it on occasion, but it is:
a)Only usefull vs. cc only troops
b)Risky as if one skimmer goes down your army is history
c)Hard to accomplish because of the exact placement it needs sometimes, its not so easy when your troops have a 12" range and you can't hope to kill anyone with all your falcons lined up and shaken.

That doesn't even get into the VP denial of easily 1k Points when you add in cargo. And the mobility to ensure that they can dump said cargo on turn 5 or turn 6 to let it do max damage with little to no time for retaliation while the Falcon zooms off elsewhere to claim objectives, and you start to see how bad Eldar can be when used well.

---------The Eldar are supposed to be bad when the are used well, if they were not then what's the point of playing well with a specialized army? simply to get even is definitely not the answer. And all the examples you are referring to are theoretical. In a perfect world where all Eldar assaults make it, falcons are never hit in rear armor by deep strikers and no falcon goes down or has its exits blocked. Objectives and parameters that favor the Eldar, and all that against lists that are not powered up.

See the problem with "broken lists" is on three levels.

First level is that it lets n00bs or unskilled players to dominate other new opponents, easily.

Seccond level is that it lets somewhat mediocre players beat players of a higher caliber than themselves, because their lists are better.

The Third level is an extension of the second in that it lets highly skilled players dominate a game against equally skilled opponents.

The problem is that the power of a broken list gets worse the better a player is. So while a very skilled general with a decent army (ie. not completely cheese) may be able to beat a mediocre general using a triple falcon list, they stand to lose against an equally skilled general using the same triple falcon list.

---------Tournament results state otherwise and the above argument has no basis, i can say the same for any other army.

If there is one thing positive I can say about "the brokenness" of Mech Eldar its that the list can suffer in the long run at a major tournament.

The problem with the list is that it literally revolves around the Falcons, so if an opponent "gets lucky" and downs one Holofield tank, things really start to go down hill for the Eldar player in terms of pulling a needed Massacre or even a Victory.

--------With armament destroyed included 7 hits will immobilize a falcon on average, and usually since the falcon has to be close to deliver, there will be another kind gentleman with a fist to auto-hit it and penetrate its armour. It has happened to me a ton of times and it can be a game looser especially if the squad that goes down (which usually is the case if the opponent knows what he is doing) is the squad i most needed for the battle (e.g. dragons for his more than average number of tanks). Apart from that, even you admit in this argument that despite the falcon brokenness, it just hasn't got enough to be the tournament winner that other units are and the real hatred comes from the WAY it "dominates"


Now the problem is that "getting lucky" for a Mech Eldar opponent doesn't happen reliably, but in a 5 or 6 game tournament there's a decent chance that if you're facing other tough lists, one opponent is going to "get lucky".

-----------I wouldn't call 7 glances lucky especially in a tournament environment with skilled players.

*I should say that while I find it thoroughly enjoyable to "hate on Eldar" in online discussions, I must admit I've been tempted by the pointy eared gitz. Not so much to play them competitively, because I really do hate the Falcon lists, but for playing them as a less competitive force not using Holofield tanks.


----------Join us man!:D And really now that the defilers no longer lob it, infantry and fast Eldar are back in the game. It is just that people haven't realized that yet and they insist on hiding in falcons and loosing all those truly hard hitting units. If you want we can exchange ideas on that since i am currently working on little to none skimmer lists for tournaments (and no i am not talking 3 WLs here...) and up to now i am very satisfied for two reasons:
a) I can retain my firepower with little or no less mobility and almost never be shaken.
b) I can win easier with less headaches.
c) I don't get all the cheese gripe afterwards because for some reason people think my new lists are less powered than the themed falcon ones... go figure!

And thinking about it, if I was an Eldar player and I got that tournament itch, I'd run the 3 Falcon list, because it's the only thing that lets the army stand up to Nidzilla or even a SAFH Marine style list.


Trust me Falcons are the obvious right now and personally i played and play them for the theme and because i know the list. There are other choices that right now are overlooked but will shine in the future. The codex has been out a year only and whole game changes as we speak. Even if everything remains the same i can show you Eldar units that simply own the falcon and do some killing for a change.

The Craftworld is waiting for you....:)

boogaloo
29-11-2007, 18:52
[QUOTE=Voodoo Boyz;2137885]
*I should say that while I find it thoroughly enjoyable to "hate on Eldar" in online discussions, I must admit I've been tempted by the pointy eared gitz. Not so much to play them competitively, because I really do hate the Falcon lists, but for playing them as a less competitive force not using Holofield tanks.
QUOTE]

i sympathise with your hate for the falcons, but i strongly recomend trying a list out on foot, seeing how badly you need a reliable transport. Then put a falcon on the table, realise it's exactly what you need but it doesn't really kill much. then think about the fact that you're spending 200 pts and a heavy slot on a transport. then think about the fact that in 1500 pts, if you take 3 falcons/harlies it'll cost you about 350 for each combo, adding up to 1150 pts.
Sure you're denying a potential of 600 pts, (harlies are very killable) and your trying to kill 2000 pts of enemy with 1400 pts worth of killing units (falcons are not there for killing). I agree that falcon bombing harlies x 3 is extreme cheese, but not all eldar players should have their tanks penalised for a couple of power gamers tickling themselves the wrong way.

but yes i completely recomend taking eldar for a test spin see how they go. They have plenty of foot slogging capabilities without falcons, a transport to get your troops there can just turn a situation where you don't stand a chance in to a situation where your opponent just doesn't stand a chance. But i regularly field lists without any falcons so i don't think that eldar rely on cheese to be effective, the flip side is that they do whatever it is that they do REAL well. So if you have specialised assault troops, they will kill you in assault, if they have specialised shooters, they will shoot you in assault, if you want a transport it will get you there. but that's all each unit does. Stick a specialised assault troop in the most expensive transport in the game and you should do some havoc wreaking

Voodoo Boyz
29-11-2007, 19:16
I see the reason Eldar players take the Falcons, or to a lesser extent Prisms. Play a game against Nidzilla or SAFH Marines, or even Mech Tau, or a tournament styled Necrons, and you really get boned hard.

The way you "compete" with tournament builds is by taking the Holofield Cheese. Thing is, this completely changes the army's play style and catapults the list from mid tier to "God Tier" next to Nidzillas.

Which is "OK", the game will always have top tier lists. But I see Falcon/Prism lists in so many "normal" lists, it's not even funny. And BTW, one of the downsides to playing a "god tier" list is that you will hear bitching about it, a lot. Because people recognize cheese when they see it, and the Eldar stuff can be so much more potent than everyone elses stuff.

To be fair, I don't buy arguments of "well it doesn't kill anything". You don't need to kill anything when you simply don't die most of the time.

And while I appreciate the sentiment, the Eldar tempt me, but I've got a Tournament Ork list to build, and a friendly retooled Ork list to build, and then I have ideas for a Stealer styled Nid army, and then I just had this great idea for a friend about a GK+SM army, and then...you get the idea. :P

Xenocidal Maniac
29-11-2007, 19:35
Orbital, I really feel that this thread has turned into yet another argument about the power of Falcons. It may be in keeping with the spirit of the thread to add it to your list....

HA HA!!! :D

I called it.

Score another one for the Xenocidal Maniac.

Ianos
29-11-2007, 20:12
I see the reason Eldar players take the Falcons, or to a lesser extent Prisms. Play a game against Nidzilla or SAFH Marines, or even Mech Tau, or a tournament styled Necrons, and you really get boned hard.

-------There are other ways to beat them it is just that the Falcon is truly Eldar in every sense and allows people to deploy their specialists with safety.

The way you "compete" with tournament builds is by taking the Holofield Cheese. Thing is, this completely changes the army's play style and catapults the list from mid tier to "God Tier" next to Nidzillas.

------I just explained how the Nidzilla can be equally considered God Tier next to falcons and have also provided tournament results and personal experience to back all that up.

Which is "OK", the game will always have top tier lists. But I see Falcon/Prism lists in so many "normal" lists, it's not even funny. And BTW, one of the downsides to playing a "god tier" list is that you will hear bitching about it, a lot. Because people recognize cheese when they see it, and the Eldar stuff can be so much more potent than everyone elses stuff.

------And i say other stuff can be much more potent than Eldar stuff, fact is results actually back me up.

To be fair, I don't buy arguments of "well it doesn't kill anything". You don't need to kill anything when you simply don't die most of the time.

------Yes you do and you know that, especially when you mention all that objective grabbing. Its not only about grabbing the objective, you have to kill more or prevent grabbing/denial by killing. In that respect the trio falcon can only protect 18 warriors, the rest will either be in serpents or on foot/bikes/jump-packs and they can be easily killed with t3 4+ save and 12" effective range at most. In the end 3 glances will force you to attack with aspects into the thick of it and the game starts and ends right there.

And while I appreciate the sentiment, the Eldar tempt me, but I've got a Tournament Ork list to build, and a friendly retooled Ork list to build, and then I have ideas for a Stealer styled Nid army, and then I just had this great idea for a friend about a GK+SM army, and then...you get the idea. :P

Well good luck with your projects...:) which reminds me (not directed at you), when everyone is bitching on Eldar i say to them "well if they are so uber-powerful then why don't you play them, and ok with friendly games, how about tournaments", and even some who have a few Eldar but are against them say "well i don't like their play style and minies that much...". And it really makes me wonder if this is it or they really know deep inside that after all is said and done, the Eldar are simply not that powerful, trio or not...

Cry of the Wind
29-11-2007, 20:57
But annoying<>imbalanced.

I'm just curious but do you feel there is anything imbalanced in 40k? I've felt for awhile now that cheese is fine as long as it is in the right setting. I'm not going to bust out my Falcons for a friendly game because I don't think it's a friendly list. To me that sounds like there is something a little imbalanced going on.

Imperialis_Dominatus, Xenocidal Maniac, we know what we're doing here with this thread and what it originally stood for. We also are still doing it here because this thread is a much more civilized and interesting discussion and Orbital seems to agree that it’s alright to keep talking about it. It would be better to have the discussion in this thread rather than in one of those others (or yet another new one) that has nothing new. I wouldn`t be talking here normally out of respect to the original topic as I agreed with it, but really this is one of the better discussions out there even if ironically it is discussing the issue the thread that was created to try and stop discussing....but I guess adding it to the list would be appropriate :p

gitburna
29-11-2007, 20:58
with any luck in a years time Ork lootas and a theoretical future imperial guard army will be able to put out so many s7 shots onto a falcon that the falcon in effect becomes a "scissors" to the ork/guard "rock".

At that point we can all shut the hell up about the falcon for a few hours before some bright spark realises that "OMG Farsight enclave armies are the absolute cheese" and wins a couple of tournaments with them, and the whole grumbling merrygoround can start again.

Vineas
29-11-2007, 21:07
I'm not one to make completly off topic comments on other peoples posting but this forced me to break with that...

Really how the heck did this thread strike you as a good place to ask a background question on Space Marines Scouts so you could build an apoc army...and then something random about adding a titanhammer formation...like dude....

:wtf:

Bah, just being a complete idiot. I saw others going OT so figured I may as well too. :P

I just don't like blanket statements like "3 Falcons lists are stupid or OTT". As pointed out I recently acquired some Falcons and so have ran a Falcon trio in my Eldar army a few times. 3 reasons I don't like it (and no I did not take the 215pt pt Trio).

1) Waste of Heavy support. I now intend to make Serpents out of my Falcons for my Dragons and Banshees and using the points saved from removing Falcon 3 to bump up both squads to 10 strong. They really do suck for shooting compared to the other HS choices (even support platforms are better pts spent) and without making them 200+ points they just don't survive to do what they need to do. It's like the Eldar version of a LR. Good transport (if you want to pay over 200 pts) but fails in it's offensive power and unlike the LR your squads are sitting ducks for a turn (and no lets not drag up another LR vs Falcon discussion, I am just listing my reason why it fails as a Skimming LR).

2) 6 Harlies (don't care what anyone might say) just do absolutely ****** in cc against anything not in Flak armour (my xp anyway) so I'm bumping them to 10 strong.

3) I just hate not having my lovely (and very powerful) Warwalkers on the table. Egads but I felt so helpless without them. :(

jigplums
30-11-2007, 01:28
notice the amount of destroyer spam at the gt this year, an answer to skimmerspam prehaps :)

Ianos
30-11-2007, 03:15
I'm just curious but do you feel there is anything imbalanced in 40k? I've felt for awhile now that cheese is fine as long as it is in the right setting. I'm not going to bust out my Falcons for a friendly game because I don't think it's a friendly list. To me that sounds like there is something a little imbalanced going on.



Well my view of things in 40k regarding balance is very simple but requires some analysis to understand. To me there is no cheese and even if there is i cannot specifically identify it or force anyone out of it. Let me explain, 40k attracted me as a form of an advanced strategy game, i like the fact that its not quantitative, movement is measured in metrics and not squares, dice handle the randomness of battle. I like the whole 12ish races thing and all the variants, i love this gigantic universe of possible tactics and armies and missions. I am a strategy guy plain and simple and 40k is my thing (at least now).

As from the above i KNOW and have accepted that the rules, numbers and metrics of such a vast system with so many factors (arithmetic, metric and boolean) can never be absolutely balanced. Hey even chess isn't balanced and no game in the real world actually is and that is because only imbalance can lead to evolution. As a result i dare not point out what is unbalanced IMO because i am not the all-knowing Ianos, dictating other peoples beliefs. I am just a player and at most will write a leter or two to the designers or point out ridiculous rules to players (like the assault cannon being better at every role than any other weapon specialized for it and costing less), all i can do is accept what anyone likes to play and do my best to win the game despite the sheer fact that the other guy is playing 15 destroyers and i have 4 serpents.

I will not moan, yell or cry cheese, it is just a game and if i really know i cannot face a specific list due to my setup then i will also know not to get disappointed or gripe after loosing. In the end I the "powergamer" am truly playing for fun although i will do all i can to pull out a win or give a draw. This game is imbalanced but not to the extent people yell at it, and IMHO any list that is coherent and can face threats is a tournament list and "broken". The moment you stick powerfists and not plasma pistols to that berserker champ you are breaking the list and for a good reason. So i am not against anything and i will simply acknowledge things i cannot win and those the other guy can't so we can proceed to a new different game.


Cheese? So what, I LOVE THIS GAME!!!:D

Cry of the Wind
30-11-2007, 05:57
<snip>

You know what that is very similar to the way I look at it as well, you just said it better than I can think it. I love the game in to quote Voodoo Boyz, "god-tier" level as with lists that deadly strategy comes into play again. The thing is I also like to play at lower tiers too because of my love for the background as well and those two loves are sometimes mutually exclusive (e.g. I love my Inquisitor and his inducted troops but I know they can't compete at the "god-tier" which saddens me as I'd love to be able to bring them to a tournament without the prior knowledge that I have no chance at winning without luck).

This why I do feel the need to call certain things 'cheesy' or what ever. I want the game to be "god-tier" for more than just a few choice lists. I might use those lists sometimes for the fun of having to plan every move carefully because the other army is just as deadly as I am, but I'd rather that be the case with all lists rather than only a select few combos.

Eulenspiegel
30-11-2007, 08:12
Edit: Orbital, your thread may be slowly turning into a full on debate over the power of Falcons but I find the mood that you've started in this thread has produced a much more interesting enviroment to discuss Falcon related issues that has yet gone down to the route the others have.
I noticed that, too. Unfortunately my attempts at sarcasm to throw a steel bar into the spokes of topics done to death have been far from successful.
Maybe tarzan english no good :(

silashand
30-11-2007, 08:22
I can say that it would be foolish not to take advantage of the 3 Falcon boxed set.

Slightly OT, but I have to admit it is a pretty good deal. I've considered getting it, but I want it for some of my Forge World conversions like another Night Spinner and a couple FW Wave Serpents, not more Falcons (I have two right now anyway). If nothing else, Apocalypse has given us some decent bargains on stuff, assuming you can foot the initial bill to take advantage of some of them. Wish there were a few more as I'd love the Ogryn Auxilliary, but I don't want anything but the Ogryns so I won't waste the money for extra Cadians, etc. They need an option to "build your own" so to speak I think. JMO though...

Cheers, Gary

Voodoo Boyz
30-11-2007, 11:41
with any luck in a years time Ork lootas and a theoretical future imperial guard army will be able to put out so many s7 shots onto a falcon that the falcon in effect becomes a "scissors" to the ork/guard "rock".

At that point we can all shut the hell up about the falcon for a few hours before some bright spark realises that "OMG Farsight enclave armies are the absolute cheese" and wins a couple of tournaments with them, and the whole grumbling merrygoround can start again.

You know one of the reasons that I'm absolutely in love with the new Ork dex is exactly because their powerful build is the "scissors" to the "rock" of Mech Eldar and Nidzilla.

I <3 Lootas! :evilgrin:

Also jigplums brought up a good point about Necrons and the GT's. They've been coming out more often now, because of the skimmer-spam lists of Tau & Eldar.

Ianos
30-11-2007, 12:37
This why I do feel the need to call certain things 'cheesy' or what ever. I want the game to be "god-tier" for more than just a few choice lists. I might use those lists sometimes for the fun of having to plan every move carefully because the other army is just as deadly as I am, but I'd rather that be the case with all lists rather than only a select few combos.


Yeah i know what you mean, and while i can't say for sure what is cheesy or not i can definately understand underpowered and incoherent. Like those lists that have over payed cc goodness and no real way to get there(GK Anyone?). And then the other guy calls you cheesy for fielding 3 gk Dreads just so you can deal with some tanks which all other races can with a troop choice.
But in the end, if you really go at it and design your list in a way that functions well (and that might not always be the internet lists), the powerlevel of all armies is more or less the same give or take a few. And that is the reason why i prefer competitive games to "fluffy" ones because when someone demands "fluffiness" from you he essentially nerfs your army's capabilities but that does not mean that the same effect is taken in both armies.
And by the way there are lists out there that people haven't really understood how powerful they are because they are not cookie cutters and people think they are simply fluffy. A classic example is the "one of everything" marines which promises a low tier game only to repeatedly crush even tournament lists in the hands of a good general. And then after the 100th time you loose in that friendly match you decide that the only way to deal with this "fluffy" guy is to field 3 leman Russes and he goes on to call you cheesy!
Now in our case with the falcon, hey it is fluffy, it is themed, it is the Eldar style of war and the list plays 3 ways that can intermingle: Close range troops in transports, fast troops flying around, ranged troops standing still and dishing out. Anything else is simply underpowered for Eldar, like getting a totally cc oriented Autarch or howling banshees and putting them on foot. Right now people know and trust the falcon as they did with WLs before. But a) What the mass does is not always the best choice
b) People have a tendency to go all out toughness and forget that they actually need units that can deal some real damage.
c) Tournament results clearly point out that the even the tournament trio falcon lists are simply not that powerful even compared to the new "nerfed" CSM.


And thats what i have been trying to explain all this time by saying "There ARE better choices for Eldar, it is just the annoying way the falcon works and people hate it".

Captain Micha
30-11-2007, 12:39
Or it's because we cron players finally have a grasp on our army. *who wants to bet on a new codex soon..*

Also, to the one that said Eldar are lacking in a reliable transport, you do have this transport, it's called the wave serpent, perhaps you've heard of it? Transports are supposed to get your guys to where they are going before they go down. Does the wave serpent accomplish this? Yes. and for cheap. (Don't you dare say it doesn't when it has better rules than my Devilfish which Eldar players often claim is "too good")

Using "expense" to justify a unit when it's upgrades are about a hundred points too cheap doesn't work. Especially when you consider the amount of points saved on taking 6 men instead of 10 for those squads.

A competent Eldar player can rape almost all other armies without the falcon. I've seen it far too many times to know better than the simply untrue line of "We don't have anything else!" defense. Go learn how to play. Lose like the rest of us and get better.

Also having 1k of your army be damned near unkillable is not balanced. And since this is coming from a Necron player (who by all means should have -the- final say in what's unkillable by comparison) that's saying ALOT.

The problem is -certain- 40k players think their army should be unkillable. (Usually the stupid type btw) because their fluff says so. or some other lame powergamer excuse. They don't want to -think- and why gw actually bothers to make armies that cater to this player mindset is beyond my understanding. They don't do it in fantasy, why do they do it in 40k?

The Eldar were never meant to be a whiney nooblet army. So why did they become one?

scarletsquig
30-11-2007, 12:43
Falcons are cheese! :cheese:

And they are boring to play.

Crimson Reaver
30-11-2007, 12:54
Sorry for maybe pushing this slightly off topic, but as it seems to be a given that 3 Holofalcons + Harlies = Cheese, how much can you strip from that build before it moves back into the ranks of sanity?

I've always thought that taking 3 of any Elites/FA/HS choice is over-egging the pudding somewhat. I generally use 2 of the good units in my armies (Holo-Falcon/Prism, Seraphim, Exorcists) but I never push to 3 and I'll happily drop it down to 1 if I don't have the units ready to play with or we decide to go for a smaller game.

As the Falcon also has the capability to haul cargo, how do you view the combo if you downgrade the Harlies and go for Banshees, Fire Dragons or something else?

For the Falcon/Prism, where would you say that they stop becoming a cog in the machine that is your army and turn into the Raison d'ętre of the army as a whole? Is there a significant difference between the Falcon and the Prism in this respect, as the Prism is far easier to nullify, if not to destroy given the lack of a transport option and the different weapon outfit?

Captain Micha
30-11-2007, 12:56
Stripping the holofield is usually adequate. Which is why I think it should go the way of the crystal targeting matrix honestly. The falcon is still as survivable as a hammerhead without it roughly.

3 of anything is not in itself bad. It's 3 or more of an imbalanced unit that is bad.

Ianos
30-11-2007, 13:31
Are we comparing underpowered lists with overpowered again? Cause yeah anything can be imbalanced then. But if we go straight tier 1 the trio falcon just does not cut it in tournaments and statistics prove just that. Aside from the fact that there are obvious lists like the 15 destroyers that the only way for the falcon to win them is for their players to simply want to loose and do stupid things.

Voodoo Boyz
30-11-2007, 13:37
Are we comparing underpowered lists with overpowered again? Cause yeah anything can be imbalanced then. But if we go straight tier 1 the trio falcon just does not cut it in tournaments and statistics prove just that. Aside from the fact that there are obvious lists like the 15 destroyers that the only way for the falcon to win them is for their players to simply want to loose and do stupid things.

That's not true dude. There are plenty of Eldar armies running around with top 10 battle point scores and they all run 3 Holofield Tanks. As I pointed out before the winner of both the Adepticon Glatiator (no sports or painting scores, just battle) and the best general (ie highest battle) were Eldar skimmer lists with 3 Holofield tanks in heavy.

Captain Micha
30-11-2007, 13:39
and then 15 destroyers dies to anything with serious firepower like 'side and suit happy tau.
mech eldar is equally strong against anything. And that's the problem with it

Orbital
30-11-2007, 13:48
You know, as much as people want to tie a rock to this thread (and others) and let it sink into the morass of Falcon arguments, I gotta say that we haven't really taken a good look at something I consider to be a central part of this issue: How often does this really happen, anyhow? In other words... how many 3x(Falcon+harlequins) lists have we actually had to play against?

My guess is that most of the people in these threads -including the ones who are rattling a lot of sabers about the "broken Falcon"- have never seen that kind of list in person. I know I never have.

It's hard to prove that 3-Falcon lists are rife because most of us have better things to do with our lives than conduct studies of who, in the world gaming community, is a cheese-playing jerk... and then tally up the numbers. It's just as hard to prove that they're not rife for the exact same reason. Records of GT lists are a good way to get a sense of how many of these lists appear among a certain segment but, alas, those events are not representative of the community at large... as it's a concentrated niche within a whole, not an average sample of one.

What I do know is that "I see those lists all the time!" is no indicator of what's really going on out there. A friend of mine said it best when he told me "the plural of 'anecdote' is not 'data'". In other words, three or four or five guys who say "I see three-Falcon lists every week" are not proof that those lists are everywhere. All too often a guy who sees this list once or twice will make remember it as "every single time I play against an Eldar army". This is just human nature and the way of statistical analysis. It's not specific to any particular army or Warhammer in general. We just tend to remember the one cheese-meister who beats us thanks to rules loop holes and forget the dozen other guys who play a cleaner game.

So this leads us back to the first point: How many times are you really going to run into a Falcon/Harlequin-heavy army list? My guess is that most Eldar players won't use this combination for the following reasons:

- Not everyone is a jerk (yes, even if they play Eldar). This cuts out a lot of three-Falcon armies right there.
- It's not a fun list. Even someone who gets a thrill out of an easy win will find that doing the same thing 20 times is a complete snore. Abject boredom trumps most people's desire to win at all costs.
- It's not an effective list. Three goobed-out Falcons cost about 650 points, and the Harlequins will easily bring it up to as much as 1000 points or more. It will kill your comp scores in tournaments and, unless you're playing a very high-point game, it makes it hard to get anything else in there. No matter how you slice it, 1000 points for six units is way too much.
- It's expensive. I'm not going to buy and paint 18 Harlequins and three Falcons so that all the other models I paid for can't get used because I ran out of points.
- This is probably the biggest factor of all (if you ask me): It's no secret that people hate cheese-list players. People argue about what qualifies as cheese but nobody ever argues that cheese is awesome. Therefore, someone who plays cheese is going to get told that it's cheese... and not just by one person. The main disinfectant for cheese armies is disapproval from the community; few people are ok with being that kind of social outcast.

So this leaves us with the few remaining players who have the marbles to stand in front of the gaming community and say "I'm gonna stuff Falcons with Harlequins like they were pimentos into olives, and I don't give a damn about who doesn't like it". There's no denying that they're out there and some of us have run into them (though I doubt as many as claim to have)... but I don't know if I would call this kind of attitude an "epidemic". Think about it: If you play two pick-up games per week*, you're probably going to play against Eldar maybe 25% of the time (which is a generous guess). Of those Eldar players, how many are going to be Three-Falcon goobers? My guess is: Very few. If these statistics I'm coming up with are sound, you may have to face a three-Falcon list maybe twice a year, if that.

And when you do face that list at a pick up game, you are completely able to say "No, thank you" and walk away. As for tournaments... we know (from what we've seen of GT records since the new Eldar codex has come out) that three-Falcon lists are not currently dominating the tournament scene, so that doesn't seem to be a big thing, either.

So in the end I have to ask: Is this an issue worth starting 7 or more angry, bitter, argumentative, math-hammer-filled threads about?

You tell me.

* If those two games aren't pick-up, and you're playing against friends, then you need to stop inviting the cheese guy. Or give him a wedgie.

Captain Micha
30-11-2007, 13:54
It's not -every- Eldar player, as some of them actually like to use their noggins to win and not a unit, it's mostly the whiney nooblets who honestly if it weren't for their unit choice probably wouldn't do half as well as they do.

Orbital
30-11-2007, 14:04
Falcons are cheese! :cheese:

And they are boring to play.
This is my personal nominee for the most unashamed "ME TOO!" post I've seen in weeks.

ChaosMaster
30-11-2007, 14:23
Orbital, I really feel that this thread has turned into yet another argument about the power of Falcons. It may be in keeping with the spirit of the thread to add it to your list....
I tried to squash most of these threads with my comments on the topic, shown in this thread at post # 73 (http://warseer.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2134849&postcount=73) and in some cases it seems to have worked, but Falcon discussions as a whole have become "The Thing That Wouldn't Die". The are also just about as interesting at this point as the B-movie whose title I just borrowed. :p

Orbital
30-11-2007, 14:26
It's not -every- Eldar player, as some of them actually like to use their noggins to win and not a unit, it's mostly the whiney nooblets who honestly if it weren't for their unit choice probably wouldn't do half as well as they do.
Personally? I wouldn't touch the 3x(Falcon+Harlequins) approach with a ten foot pole, even if the community was handing out "Thank You" gift baskets to every Eldar player who did. I don't like it. As a devoted Eldar player, I don't find Falcons are as unbeatable as everyone says they are (yes, that's my personal experience, but I'm speaking personally), and I've lost too many to feel comfortable making them the backbone of my strategy. I have had much, much more effective results creating an interdependent lattice of psychic powers, a strong firebase, quick forward units, and (hard as this may be to believe) strategic and tactical thinking. It's an approach that works at any point value and does not give my opponent a thread they can tug by which the whole sweater can be unraveled.

I also don't like to give my opponents a freebie by which they can dismiss me. If they lose, I don't want to hear about how many Starcannons I was using, or how Wraithlords are broken, or how Falcons are unkillable. I don't gift-wrap a "Get Out Of Jail Free" card for my opponent by pushing the loopholes and limits of my codex. I'm not scared of making a balanced list because the list doesn't play the game; I do.

So yeah. Not every Eldar player wants to play the 3-Falcon list, values it, or needs it.

Voodoo Boyz
30-11-2007, 14:29
You know, as much as people want to tie a rock to this thread (and others) and let it sink into the morass of Falcon arguments, I gotta say that we haven't really taken a good look at something I consider to be a central part of this issue: How often does this really happen, anyhow? In other words... how many 3x(Falcon+harlequins) lists have we actually had to play against?

My guess is that most of the people in these threads -including the ones who are rattling a lot of sabers about the "broken Falcon"- have never seen that kind of list in person. I know I never have.

It's hard to prove that 3-Falcon lists are rife because most of us have better things to do with our lives than conduct studies of who, in the world gaming community, is a cheese-playing jerk... and then tally up the numbers. It's just as hard to prove that they're not rife for the exact same reason. Records of GT lists are a good way to get a sense of how many of these lists appear among a certain segment but, alas, those events are not representative of the community at large... as it's a concentrated niche within a whole, not an average sample of one.

What I do know is that "I see those lists all the time!" is no indicator of what's really going on out there. A friend of mine said it best when he told me "the plural of 'anecdote' is not 'data'". In other words, three or four or five guys who say "I see three-Falcon lists every week" are not proof that those lists are everywhere. All too often a guy who sees this list once or twice will make remember it as "every single time I play against an Eldar army". This is just human nature and the way of statistical analysis. It's not specific to any particular army or Warhammer in general. We just tend to remember the one cheese-meister who beats us thanks to rules loop holes and forget the dozen other guys who play a cleaner game.

So this leads us back to the first point: How many times are you really going to run into a Falcon/Harlequin-heavy army list? My guess is that most Eldar players won't use this combination for the following reasons:

- Not everyone is a jerk (yes, even if they play Eldar). This cuts out a lot of three-Falcon armies right there.
- It's not a fun list. Even someone who gets a thrill out of an easy win will find that doing the same thing 20 times is a complete snore. Abject boredom trumps most people's desire to win at all costs.
- It's not an effective list. Three goobed-out Falcons cost about 650 points, and the Harlequins will easily bring it up to as much as 1000 points or more. It will kill your comp scores in tournaments and, unless you're playing a very high-point game, it makes it hard to get anything else in there. No matter how you slice it, 1000 points for six units is way too much.
- It's expensive. I'm not going to buy and paint 18 Harlequins and three Falcons so that all the other models I paid for can't get used because I ran out of points.
- This is probably the biggest factor of all (if you ask me): It's no secret that people hate cheese-list players. People argue about what qualifies as cheese but nobody ever argues that cheese is awesome. Therefore, someone who plays cheese is going to get told that it's cheese... and not just by one person. The main disinfectant for cheese armies is disapproval from the community; few people are ok with being that kind of social outcast.

So this leaves us with the few remaining players who have the marbles to stand in front of the gaming community and say "I'm gonna stuff Falcons with Harlequins like they were pimentos into olives, and I don't give a damn about who doesn't like it". There's no denying that they're out there and some of us have run into them (though I doubt as many as claim to have)... but I don't know if I would call this kind of attitude an "epidemic". Think about it: If you play two pick-up games per week*, you're probably going to play against Eldar maybe 25% of the time (which is a generous guess). Of those Eldar players, how many are going to be Three-Falcon goobers? My guess is: Very few. If these statistics I'm coming up with are sound, you may have to face a three-Falcon list maybe twice a year, if that.

And when you do face that list at a pick up game, you are completely able to say "No, thank you" and walk away. As for tournaments... we know (from what we've seen of GT records since the new Eldar codex has come out) that three-Falcon lists are not currently dominating the tournament scene, so that doesn't seem to be a big thing, either.

So in the end I have to ask: Is this an issue worth starting 7 or more angry, bitter, argumentative, math-hammer-filled threads about?

You tell me.

* If those two games aren't pick-up, and you're playing against friends, then you need to stop inviting the cheese guy. Or give him a wedgie.

Not to sound like a "I see those all the time!" and run posters, but yeah, I do see it all the time.

It's not 3 Falcons + 18 Harlies. It's usually 3 Falcons, 2x6 Harlies, and 1x6 Fire Dragons.

And if it's not that, it'll be maybe 1 Falcon + 6 Harlies (or FD's) and then 2x Prisms with the Holofields.

Basically at the store I play at, I've rarely seen an Eldar player at a game of 1500 points or more that is not running 3 Holofield+Spirit Stones Tanks in heavy. In fact the only one I know who doesn't do this is Toxic_Wisdom, who posts here and is in my gaming group and goes to the same stores I do. He could confirm this since when he comes in, he'll see the same people I do running the 3 HoloStone lists I do.

FYI, where I play we do a lot of "tournament" style gaming, where myself and some others practice GT level lists. These games are usually setup ahead of time though and most people won't walk up and plop down a GT list for a pickup game.

That said, the "pickup games" with the vast majority of every Eldar player I see in the store will have 3 HoloStones Tanks in heavy of some combo. Many times with Harlies in tow.

Moving on from that, I will play against those lists with what I bring. I won't complain, but I know that what I'm playing against is cheese. I'm not the kind of person to yell at someone for comp, but if I bring my friendly lists and someone brings the cheese, they can be sure to get a rematch with a tournament list out of me. And I'd like to think I'm pretty damn good at building and playing the tournament lists. ;)

The reason I like to post about it here is because there are just so many poncy Eldar players who like to try and defend them as "not cheese". That just adds a whole level of fun to the discussion. :D

Orbital
30-11-2007, 14:43
Not to sound like a "I see those all the time!" and run posters, but yeah, I do see it all the time.

It's not 3 Falcons + 18 Harlies. It's usually 3 Falcons, 2x6 Harlies, and 1x6 Fire Dragons.

And if it's not that, it'll be maybe 1 Falcon + 6 Harlies (or FD's) and then 2x Prisms with the Holofields.

Basically at the store I play at, I've rarely seen an Eldar player at a game of 1500 points or more that is not running 3 Holofield+Spirit Stones Tanks in heavy.
Then I suspect there's a "zero sum" factor involved because I have never seen that list in action so much as once... and not one person in my community would hesitate for a second to laugh a goof like that out of the room.


The reason I like to post about it here is because there are just so many poncy Eldar players who like to try and defend them as "not cheese". That just adds a whole level of fun to the discussion. :D
VB, I like you and I like reading your posts, but the 3-Falcon thing isn't just a discussion for you. It's past that. You take it very personally. Even your .sig has a big, bold "kill a Falcon" link in it. You don't seem to be having a ton of fun. You seem to be angry... which is fine, but it makes me read what you write with a grain of salt.

And I mean this with respect. I think you're a good guy. But you've got an agenda.

ChaosMaster
30-11-2007, 14:54
So yeah. Not every Eldar player wants to play the 3-Falcon list, values it, or needs it.
My Heavy Support collection for my Eldar, much of which is still in boxes, is far too large like most of my model collection to run 3 of one thing regularly in games. I like to see different models on the table and having collected Eldar since they were made of lead, but having purchased pewter and plastic versions of many models for the army, it's mainly for Apocalypse that I even own 3 Falcons, 2 of which I got cheap at Bizarre Bazaar last spring. When I'm done building my new plastics I'll have 3 War Walker squadrons, 3 Falcons, 4 Wraithlords (1 plastic, 1 pewter, 2 lead), Dark Reaper squads (lead and pewter) and at least 2 Heavy Support Platform batteries of 3 platforms each, it's going to be a tough choice as to what to put on the table in regular Force Org. chart games. I can't help myself, I really like the models! Thank goodness for Apocalypse!

By the way, the next Bizaare Bazaar/Mercenary Market at GW Battle Bunkers is this coming weekend, Dec. 1 & 2. Details are at: http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=114988. It's a great place to find bargains or trade or sell something you no longer want.

Fixer
30-11-2007, 15:13
Since the release of the new Eldar codex I have not played against a single Eldar army that did not have 3 Holofield-tanks. That includes the two GT games last week. In one i was lucky enough that I actually managed to kill two Prisms, in the other the Falcons just took all the quarters in cleanse when all my guns could do is shoot off his guns.

Its a shame really, because without the Falcons the Eldar are a nice colourful force with ultra-specialisation and a rapier style play and all of their other heavy-support choices (which are actually pretty awesome) are never seen. I for one am going to try and build my Altansar army with no Falcons whatsoever. Warwalkers, wraithlords and Dark Reapers for me.

Voodoo Boyz
30-11-2007, 16:07
Then I suspect there's a "zero sum" factor involved because I have never seen that list in action so much as once... and not one person in my community would hesitate for a second to laugh a goof like that out of the room.


VB, I like you and I like reading your posts, but the 3-Falcon thing isn't just a discussion for you. It's past that. You take it very personally. Even your .sig has a big, bold "kill a Falcon" link in it. You don't seem to be having a ton of fun. You seem to be angry... which is fine, but it makes me read what you write with a grain of salt.

And I mean this with respect. I think you're a good guy. But you've got an agenda.

The discussion itself is a hell of a way for me to focus on something else in between sessions of "THE SKY IS FALLING...FIX IT!!" at work. ;)

Believe it or not, I am enjoying this thread very much.

The "weapons on falcons" thing in my sig is there because people keep perpetuating this silly notion on how to kill Falcons which is patently false and I'm just tired of having to re-mathammer it out again so a link to previous calculations works out just fine.

I mean the original point of this was "we've had enough on Falcons" well, looking at the Tactics forum, we might as well sticky something on them because a new thread pops up all the time as some new guy comes in and posts "hey I got beat by these unkillable Falcons, how do you down them?"

Those have been my main points in just about every thread I've posted in. Either debunking this myth that you need things like Multi Lasers instead of Lascannons to down Falcons, or arguing with people trying to defend it as anything other than an abusive tactic or combo.

But I see your point in that yes, this is played out for the most part and even I'm getting tired of arguing it out. Especially since when I play my Marines for fun (ie non cheesy marines), I just avoid the triple holofield lists, and my new Orks, they simply don't care about them, and my Necrons, well they enjoy the target practice. :skull:

It's just hard to stay out of a thread when you see silly points being brought up on the matter. ;)

Orbital
30-11-2007, 16:09
It's just hard to stay out of a thread when you see silly points being brought up on the matter. ;)
You must be very, very busy on the internet then. :)

ChaosMaster
30-11-2007, 16:15
It's just hard to stay out of a thread when you see silly points being brought up on the matter
I'll agree with that.

Keep repeating, "it's only a plastic model, it's only a plastic model..." (http://warseer.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2134849&postcount=73)

Captain Micha
30-11-2007, 16:15
I keep warseer up on my computer on my off time, so that I can be up to date on any new juicy rumors.

And the occasional entertaining internet thread. Or legitimate questions that people sometimes ask. This thread is like a side trip *L* (no offense)

Forlorn
30-11-2007, 16:18
people keep perpetuating this silly notion on how to kill Falcons

Shoot them. Alot. With big guns. And roll well. :rolleyes:

Zerosoul
30-11-2007, 16:23
See the problem with "broken lists" is on three levels.

First level is that it lets n00bs or unskilled players to dominate other new opponents, easily.

That's simply not true, and you're smart enough that you know it. A new player isn't going to dominate another new player on the strength of list alone. Period. You have to know how to play a list in order for it to be great. This isn't a mechanistic game like Magic, where all you have to do is understand the basics of how cards interact to make a netdeck work perfectly. Downloading a list can be a leg up, but a poorly played power list will lose to a well-played non-optimal list.

Besides, this is a "Won't someone PLEASE think of the children" argument, and those are worthy of nothing but loathing and disrespect.


Seccond level is that it lets somewhat mediocre players beat players of a higher caliber than themselves, because their lists are better.

If the other player is truly better, then they probably aren't getting beaten unless the dice are against them.

Seriously, dude. I enjoy reading your posts(even if you never answered one of my questions in another thread! :cries:), but you don't come off well in these Eldar threads. This really sounds like "I can't win against Mech Eldar! And I KNOW I'm better than them!" type of sour grapes. You're better than that, and it makes me sad to see you sink to that level.

40k is not Magic. A power list isn't a fixall solution. I've seen optimized lists be ripped apart by lists that the Internet would call horrible, because the optimized list was clearly downloaded by a player who didn't know what they were doing with it or weren't comfortable with it, and the other player knew and enjoyed their list. In the hands of two equally skilled players in a vacuum, sure, the one with the better list probably wins. How often does this happen? I would say incredibly close to "never".


The problem is that the power of a broken list gets worse the better a player is. So while a very skilled general with a decent army (ie. not completely cheese) may be able to beat a mediocre general using a triple falcon list, they stand to lose against an equally skilled general using the same triple falcon list.

So let me break this down to exactly what you're saying. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Two equally skilled players, one with a better list, one with only a decent list - both should stand an equal chance of winning? Huh?

This is like saying "if I give my opponent a free stroke every hole while we're golfing, we should both stand an equal chance of winning". Or "my opponent gets five downs, while I get four. Why can't I beat him?". List making is part of 40k. It's LESS of a part now, but it's still a part.


The problem with the list is that it literally revolves around the Falcons, so if an opponent "gets lucky" and downs one Holofield tank, things really start to go down hill for the Eldar player in terms of pulling a needed Massacre or even a Victory.

And nidzilla literally revolves around Carnifexes, so when they start going down, things start to really go downhill for the Tyranid player.

I mean, honestly - that argument can be applied to any list and doesn't say anything interesting whatsoever. "This footslogging ork list literally revolves around footslogging boyz, so when they start to die, things really start to go downhill for the ork player!"

I don't see why you try to justify your opinions, frankly. Why bother? You have an unreasoning distaste for something. You don't have to justify it with these weak "won't someone PLEASE think of the children!" types of arguments. You don't like Mech Eldar. There are reasons behind feeling that way, but at the end of the day, you just plain don't like them. Okay. I don't like Tau either. I have reasons for not liking them - valid ones, I think, relating to balance just like your concerns relate to balance - but that doesn't mean that at the end of the day I just plain don't like Tau. Just embrace your hatred. You know it to be true.



You know, as much as people want to tie a rock to this thread (and others) and let it sink into the morass of Falcon arguments, I gotta say that we haven't really taken a good look at something I consider to be a central part of this issue: How often does this really happen, anyhow? In other words... how many 3x(Falcon+harlequins) lists have we actually had to play against?

I've never even heard of one in my area. I keep threatening to run one, but mostly just to make light of people who say they aren't beatable, as if there's one thing I am, it's beatable.

I've noticed a fascinating phenomena on hobby message boards on the Internet - people think their concerns are The Most Important Thing Ever, instead of realizing what a tiny drop in the bucket they really are. These message boards turn into a giant echo chamber. Fun, sure - I wouldn't be here if I didn't enjoy myself at least part of the time. But people vastly overestimate the importance of these boards. Not just Warseer in particular - in general. If five people on Warseer shout in every thread about how hideously broken something is, before long, it becomes common knowledge around Warseer, and suddenly, everyone is just sure that their region is about to be taken over by Nidzilla/Falcon-spam/las-plas/whatever the bugaboo of the week is. And clearly, the fact that the designers don't read the threads written by five extremely vocal disgruntled guys and the people who poke their heads in to say "Yep! Broken! Can't disagree with the Forum Elite!" means that they're out of touch. And 40k is a terrible stupid broken game anyway and it's not fun.

That's the general pattern of all hobby message boards, but it's nowhere more clear to me than 40k General here. I love this forum, but jeeze, the signal-to-noise ratio is ever tilting towards the noise.


Not to sound like a "I see those all the time!" and run posters, but yeah, I do see it all the time.

It's not 3 Falcons + 18 Harlies. It's usually 3 Falcons, 2x6 Harlies, and 1x6 Fire Dragons.


I'm callin' you out.

Bull.

Orbital
30-11-2007, 16:30
(Re: Falcons let noobs beat veterans) That's simply not true, and you're smart enough that you know it.
I concur. There's a pervasive idea in the 40k community that the stats play the game and not the players.


(Re: Every single Eldar player in VB's town stuffs a Falcon with a Fire Dragon or a Harlequin) I'm callin' you out.

Bull.
I'm not sure how you're gonna call him out unless you're gonna take a week-long vacation in VB's home town and play every single Eldar player there.

Having said that, I have a bit of trouble believing it as well. It reminds me a bit of the days when I would play Dungeons and Dragons and some guy would come along with a character sheet full of 17's and 18's in his stats, claiming "That's just how the dice rolled!" I'm not saying VB's being dishonest, but there's something a little too fishy about the Eldar players in his home town for me to just swallow it without a grain of salt.

ChaosMaster
30-11-2007, 16:37
Does the word, "obsession", spring to mind at this point? LOL!

Orbital
30-11-2007, 16:39
Does the word, "obsession", spring to mind at this point? LOL!

With regard to what?

ChaosMaster
30-11-2007, 16:44
You're kidding, right? With regard to Falcons. You have one person who will keep this going forever because of it. Sort of amusing.

Orbital
30-11-2007, 16:50
You're kidding, right? With regard to Falcons. You have one person who will keep this going forever because of it. Sort of amusing.
Just making sure I was clear on who you were insulting there. :)

ChaosMaster
30-11-2007, 16:52
It was not intended as an insult, but rather as a simple observation of fact. ;)

Zerosoul
30-11-2007, 17:04
I'm not sure how you're gonna call him out unless you're gonna take a week-long vacation in VB's home town and play every single Eldar player there.

Done!

Nah, the "callin' you out" bit was just a joke. Some friendly ribbing. It came off poorly. Sorry VB. :(

I still don't believe it for a second, though. I don't believe for an instant that VB happens to live at the nexus of all GT players past and present, and that all Eldar players use 3 HS grav tanks every game, or even most games. Just don't buy it.


Having said that, I have a bit of trouble believing it as well. It reminds me a bit of the days when I would play Dungeons and Dragons and some guy would come along with a character sheet full of 17's and 18's in his stats, claiming "That's just how the dice rolled!" I'm not saying VB's being dishonest, but there's something a little too fishy about the Eldar players in his home town for me to just swallow it without a grain of salt.

I got the same impression. I even thought of the same analogy. High five!

Da Reddaneks
30-11-2007, 17:06
The falcon is really not particularly worse than a couple other vehicles. In fact, i think the hammer head is a more powerful tank on a point per point basis. Also, the monolith is massively underpriced for what it does. The falcon has the potnetial to be an "uber tank." but its also pretty "uber expensive." The variation i typically see is about 230 points.

And while I dont play eldar I think the tank makes sense for their race fluff wise. They are one of the, if not "the", most highly advanced race as far as technology goes (we orks have the most advanced kulture!) in the 40K universe. They should have some really good stuff!

That having been said I will readily admit that I complain ad nauseaum when I have to face them in tournaments. I hate having to go against tricked out falcons. But its not because I think they are grossly underpriced for what they do its because I have a hell of a hard time killing them and they kill the crap out of me! There is a subtle difference in the cry of "cheese" and the cry for help.

ChaosMaster
30-11-2007, 17:08
When I eventually get my massive quantity of newer Eldar plastics built and painted, hopefully next year, I'll make it a point then to bring 3 Falcons with me everywhere I go just to ensure that the perception of an Eldar 3-Falcon conspiracy becomes reality. :D

scarletsquig
30-11-2007, 17:16
This is my personal nominee for the most unashamed "ME TOO!" post I've seen in weeks.

Thanks, I guess it's a shame it was intended to be ironic. ;)

I'm amused by the falcon + harlequin combination just because of the sheer amount of rules that people hate that are involved. Not surprised it's become the new poster boy for cheesed-out armies ("that Iron Warrior list" held the crown during 3rd edition).

"Lascannon needs 4 to penetrate.. 5, neat!"

"Roll damage on my falcon."

"Alright, 6! Boom!"

"No, it's got a holofield, re-roll that"

"Alright 5! Boom!"

"No, that penetrating hit is actually a glancing hit due to skimmers moving fast"

"Alright, immobilised, Boom!"

"No... vectored engines..."

*harlequins get out*

"Okay, my 5 heavy bolters..."

"No, you can't see them, veil of tears"

"What the hell, they have RENDING?"

... it's just a long chain of stuff that isn't necessarily broken, but annoys the hell out of people.

The Song of Spears
30-11-2007, 17:20
For the record Here is my 1500 point list i ALWAYS use, at least 2 to 3 times a week at two separate wargaming locations:

HQ:
Prince Yuriel

Elites:
5xharles 1 as a shadowseer all with kisses
5xharles 1 as a shadowseer all with kisses
6 dragons

Troops:
3x jetbikes with 1 shican
3x jetbikes with 1 shican

Fast Attack:
8x Spiders with a exarch who has power blades and 2x spinners
1x Vyper with EML and Shican

Heavy Support:
3x falcons with stones, fields, vec engines

Thats all i can fit at 1500 points...

I have played a ton of games with this army, even against top ranking hardboyz winners and GT winners.

Some things that happen EVERY game.

1 falcon gets shot down and destroyed, every three games it seems two of the falcons bite the dust.

none of the units are scoring at the end of the game except the bikes if i was lucky to hide them all game and maybe two of the falcons. Harlequins almost never make it to the end of the game alive.

The falcons combined never kill more than 6~8 marines, maybe a few more guard, buts thats about it.

The dragons often get to kill 1 tank and than either die or spend the rest of the game hiding (if there are no more tanks) as 6 melta shots dont do a lot to units in cover...

The harlequins often kill one unit they assault, but every so often the rends dont come and they die to whatever they assaulted, yes even conscripts, without the rends they just dont kill much.

There is just a massive lack of firepower in this kinda list. with nearly 1000 points tied up in my falcons and their cargo, its really hard to take down other armies, especially ones like guard and nids who have so many units that this list just cant kill enough each turn. Especially with clever generals who dont put their guardsmen so close i can consolidate, it ends up the harles kill 1 10 man platoon and then get rapid fired to death by some other platoon a distance away.

For all the complainers out there, get some proxies and play a few months with this list (or something similar) and you will learn the inherent weakness of the tri falcon list (it will likely help you beat it easier too) It has weaknesses, big ones, and the durability of the falcons dont quite make up for it always.

Fixer
30-11-2007, 17:22
Hammerheads and Monoliths are certainly more useful in killy-majilly for their points. That monolith can certainly make back its cost in ressurecting stuff. The hammerhead has an incredible main weapon.

The difference is that the Monolith and the Hammerhead both have actual weaknesses to exploit. The hammerhead taking a glancing hit has only around 1/3 real chance of getting away without trouble. The other options are: loss of main gun making it mostly useless, stunned making it easilly killable and dead. The monolith may be tough and harder to kill with some specialised anti tank weapons (MCs, Meltaguns) but it can still be shot down easilly enough. It's able to sneak objectives from you and it can take penetrating hits. A railgun is a nasty prospect for a monolith. Additionally, you can always ignore it and try to phase out the rest of the neccy army.

The Falcon is an entirely different kettle of fish. It has no real weaknesses other than being easier to kill if it's shot first turn before it's move. The only way to take it down is to pour an unreasonable amount of firepower into it. It cannot be ignored because they usually carry units preparing to spill out killy happy death, or in fact, three Falcons are the entire Eldar army. What's more it can steal and tank shock 24" accross the map when it is stunned.

What it comes down to in a game against Falcons is that either the opposing player gets very lucky and downs a falcon or two, allowing him to secure and win. Or the Eldar player's falcons live and he wins/draws the game regardless of what else happened in the battle.

People keep saying that 'you can just glance it every turn and ignore it' but those same glances would have probably taken a similar vehicle from a different race out of the game entirely and allowed you to focus your fire on different targets. In objective based scenareos you have to kill the enemy scoring units to win. If you can't get the dice rolls to kill the Falcons you lose.

ChaosMaster
30-11-2007, 17:23
... it's just a long chain of stuff that isn't necessarily broken, but annoys the hell out of people.
Now there I think you've hit the nail on the head! It's the new "daemon bomb" for everyone to complain about. Hey, Eldar, thanks for taking the whining away from Chaos Marines for a while.

I hope there are no Necron players complaining about the Falcon - Harlequin combo, as their We'll Be Back and teleporting around ways are easily the most consistently ubiquitous and annoying thing in 40K!

Fixer
30-11-2007, 17:26
Actually, speaking of Necrons. I think we can probably thank the current proliferation of skimmer-tank armies for the sudden surge in Necron success in the tournaments :)

Captain Micha
30-11-2007, 17:31
Teleporting? Broken? hardly.. it's called pie plates. Field plasma cannons instead of lascannons and watch the teleporting go poof!

If your Eldar.. fireprism.... nuff said.
Teleporting annoying? how do you figure... Necrons aren't tau... why are you trying to assault them? The trick to beating necrons is to isolate his army and destroy it piecemeal

Not really a good tip for beating Falcons out there (their cargo yes... I can deal with their cargo.. but knocking out that last 600 vps, when he's already knocked out my At? ......)

scarletsquig
30-11-2007, 17:31
Now there I think you've hit the nail on the head! It's the new "daemon bomb" for everyone to complain about. Hey, Eldar, thanks for taking the whining away from Chaos Marines for a while.

Thanks, I'm not usually this constructive. :p

Interesting thing to note is the origins of the rending rule.

It didn't start with 3rd edition tyranids.

It started with 2nd edition harlequins, the current 4th edition rending rule is exactly the same as the 2nd edition rules for the harlequin's kiss, almost word-for-word.

If anyone knows of an earlier instance of the rule (rogue trader era), it'd be interesting to hear, but as far as I know, harlequins are the source of all rending.

So, if you ever have a complaint with assault cannon armies in future, blame harlequins instead.

Captain Micha
30-11-2007, 17:40
You know.... I didn't know that.. interesting.. It's all the Eldar's fault then.... Somehow that makes perfect sense.

Orbital
30-11-2007, 18:40
I even thought of the same analogy. High five!
We're going to die virgins, you and me.

Orbital
30-11-2007, 18:44
The Falcon is an entirely different kettle of fish. It has no real weaknesses other than being easier to kill if it's shot first turn before it's move.
No?

I remember Falcons being AV10 in the back.

And I remember them moving fast which, if they are destroyed, means everyone inside gets their damage re-rolled when it crashes.

Kahadras
30-11-2007, 18:50
Now there I think you've hit the nail on the head! It's the new "daemon bomb" for everyone to complain about. Hey, Eldar, thanks for taking the whining away from Chaos Marines for a while.

Actualy I've been complaining about Falcon since way back in 3rd ed (maybe 'complaining' is too strong a word). People at my old club fielded Falcon rather than Wraithlord back in the days where Wraithlord were concidered more awesome than God (and there was much complaining about them too).

People seem to fail to understand that people don't suddenly decide to 'pick' on a certain army. Back in 3rd ed people complained about 5 man laz/plas, Chaos Demonbomb and Eldar Wraithlords. Nowadays people complain about ass cannon spam, Chaos twin lash and Eldar mechanised armies. Nothing changed there. The three most disliked armies are still Marines, Chaos and Eldar.

Personaly I feel that GW still haven't got Eldar 'right'. Their 4th ed attempt was a lot better than the pile of fail that was 3rd ed (not that difficult IMHO) but there's still too much imbalance.

Kahadras

Orbital
30-11-2007, 18:57
Actualy I've been complaining about Falcon since way back in 3rd ed (maybe 'complaining' is too strong a word).
Almost sounds like you're proud.

Kahadras
30-11-2007, 19:01
Almost sounds like you're proud

Yes I am actualy. Being subjected to Falcon rush years before it came into 'fashion' means I've been round longer than the whole 'complaining over Falcon' fad. I've been complaining for years! Even after they nerf the Falcon to hell in the next Eldar codex I'll still be there complaining when others have left to whinge about something else. :)

Kahadras

Orbital
30-11-2007, 19:03
Yes I am actualy
Boggles my mind. It really does.

ChaosMaster
30-11-2007, 19:04
Almost sounds like you're proud.
I'll second that. It sounds like anti-Falcon obsession is nothing new to some.

Complaining about specific rules does change with each edition in general, even if a few people like to complain about the same armies all the time; why do I suspect they are mostly Space Marine players? :D

No one complained about Chaos when they were forced to play with the 3rd edition Chaos Codex except Chaos players. It was a terrible book compared to the rest. I only stuck with it because the Chaos Marine range is still my favorite.

Yeah, the Lash complaints are almost as bad as the Falcon complaints. I haven't even tried it yet and I'm already tired of hearing about it. A lot of great models are now a lot less effective thanks to the new Chaos Codex, but what little enjoyment I might be able to wring from the book will surely be dampened by someone whining about Lash of Submission should I dare to actually try it. Well, how about Fear of the Dark at double range cast by Tigurius? Every Codex has something in it that opposing players never want to see. Get over it so those of us who've been collecting and painting models for years can enjoy gaming with them regardless of what our latest Codex version brings us.

Kahadras
30-11-2007, 19:07
Boggles my mind. It really does.

What boggles my mind is it took till 4th ed for people to cotten onto how good Falcon were. I mean they were a pretty sweet deal back in 3rd ed and that's without the tweaks that 4th ed gave them. It only took a couple of games with my two Predators getting reduced to piles of scrap in the first couple of turns to think 'Falcon + Fire Dragon = win'.

Kahadras

The Song of Spears
30-11-2007, 20:10
'Falcon + Fire Dragon = win'.
Kahadras

You either only play a game with 1 model = the predator, or you must be joking.

Falcon moves up, dragons hop out and destroy predator

20 marines within 24" to 12" then mow down dragons and stun (possibly destroy depending on how much anti tank you have) the falcon.

Are you saying that your table generalship is so bad that a one trick pony will decimate your whole army? Unless there is only one tank some 3 feet from the rest of your entire army, there is little reason that the dragons should ever kill more than 1 tank before they die. And with how easy the falcon is to stun, it wont be killing much, just a 185 point scoring unit, assuming there are objectives to contest.

Kahadras
30-11-2007, 21:23
Falcon moves up, dragons hop out and destroy predator

20 marines within 24" to 12" then mow down dragons and stun (possibly destroy depending on how much anti tank you have) the falcon.



I should possibly note at this time I'm playing Space wolves so my infantry is mainly concentrated around bolters so goodbye Fire Dragons (if I cover both tanks fully so that the FD can't hide behind them if the model isn't removed) and I get enough hits to kill the unit (that's quite a few bolter shots btw). Additionaly I could use my melta guns and the like to go for a single glancing hit on the Falcon (of which the likelyhood of it being stunned is pretty small).

OK I may be a poor general but I've just used a hell of a lot of points to cover my tanks which are still toast. OK my opponant might end up with a dead squad of Fire Dragons and a shaken Falcon but next turn the Falcon is miles away and my long ranged anti tank firepower is now a gently smoldering ruin.

Kahadras

Orbital
30-11-2007, 21:34
I should possibly note at this time I'm playing Space wolves so my infantry is mainly concentrated around bolters so goodbye Fire Dragons.
I used to play an all-Fire-Dragon army in 3rd ed (using Biel Tan rues with Aspects as troops) and the only army I consistently knew I would always beat was Space Wolves. Without exception. And I don't mean "beat" as much as I mean "pulverize". And one after the other, the Space Wolf player would come up and say "Yeah, but I'm different because I do (some tactic)" and he'd still end up sucking it. Guard would beat me, Tyranis would beat me, and even other Eldar would beat me... but Space Wolves were always just meat on the end of a stick, ready for the barbecue.

Now, to be fair, that was 3rd ed and a lot has changed. The most important thing was the removal of Burning Fist from the Exarch's powers. This is what made the Fire Dragon army viable (Math-hammer guys: Trust me on this one without making me write out 10 pages of math to show you why, ok?). Without it (and, of course, the Biel Tan rules), I shudder to think of what would happen to my Fire Dragon army now. But that whole "Bolters = Goodbye Fire Dragons" thing? It was never as easy as that. Contrary to popular belief, Eldar players know what bolters do and they sometimes come up with better strategies than "I guess I just have to stand there and let them shoot me". :)

It was a cool army though. Whenever I needed a self-esteem boost I'd go find a Space Wolves player.

Kahadras
30-11-2007, 21:57
I used to play an all-Fire-Dragon army in 3rd ed (using Biel Tan rues with Aspects as troops) and the only army I consistently knew I would always beat was Space Wolves

The problem wasn't killing Fire Dragons though. The problem is the removal of my long ranged anti tank firepower. As a one shot kill weapon 6 Fire Dragons pretty much = dead tank. People can say 'ah ha but you killed his Fire Dragon!' but that isn't the point as the main worry (the Falcon) are untouched.

My whole rambling point is that the Falcon were a pretty good deal in 3rd ed, they were just overshadowed by the Wraithlord which was an even better deal. GW then 'fixed' the Wraithlord and made the Falcon the new Wraithlord. I now see very few 'competitive' Eldar army lists on Warseer now that don't include at least 2 or 3 anti grav tanks.

At the end of the day people rarely kick up this much of a fuss unless there is an actual problem (also see laz/plas, assault cannon, demonbomb etc). A good example of a short term fuss is over Warhammer HE ASF rules. People complained like mad before the book came out that they were broken/cheesy etc. After a bit though the whinging died down as people figured out that it wasn't as bad as they thought.

The Falcon debate however keeps comming back again and again which indicates to me that there might be more to it than just people being poor generals/sports or the like.

Kahadras

The Song of Spears
30-11-2007, 21:57
TBH both Kahadras and Orbital's last posts kinda were confusing.

With a 4+ armour save, i am sure 15+ marines can shoot and kill 6 dragons.

And yes while one of your tanks is dead, that is the last time that will happen as now his dragons are gone.

And its not like thats a big surprise or anything as 1 predator against ANY army will be smoldering rubble after two turns, even against nids who usually have str 10 gun toting fex's . So dragons killing 1 tank means next to nothing on the chezors scale.

As far as a shaken falcons its not that hard to do, to keep it from shooting. And if its got nothing to transport, and it cant shoot, all it can do is grab objectives, if there are any to grab. Some may call it VP denial, but when you are actually the one playing the army, you call it 'dead weight' as its nothing doing anything to keep the other guy from gaining his objectives as well, or taking out the rest of your army.

Seriously guys, play the 1500 point tri falcon list i posted for a few months, you will see it is not so great as you may think...

azimaith
30-11-2007, 21:58
Play that game with objectives and you see it really is.

kendaop
01-12-2007, 02:41
The food chain in 40k is really just a circle. Army A usually dominates Army B. Army B usually dominates Army C. Army C usually dominates Army D....all the way to army n. Then, guess what. Army n usually dominates Army A. It's not that Eldar Falcons are overpowered, it's just that armies incorporating them have an advantage over YOUR army. As an Ork player, I fear Falcons ZILCH.

"Oh no, that Falcon killed three of my Orks advancing through the forest...what shall I ever do?! RUN AWAY!!! RUN AWAY!!!"

The things I think are cheesy may not be what you think is cheesy. For example, I fear 20-man squads of Black Templar with a Chaplain because they outnumber most of my mobs. The power of the Orks' close combat ability comes from heavily outnumbering their foes' attacks and crippling them on the first round of combat, but when there are more marines and scouts than Orks.....let's just say the Greenskins never come out on top.

The point is....quit complaining about things that YOU can't beat. Make a better gameplan, and try again, because some of us actually CAN shoot down Falcons, and relish the moment when we do. It makes me feel like Rich Uncle Pennybags counting his money..."25, 50, 75, 100, 125, 150?!?! I just killed 150 points of Space Elves crap?!?! WOOHOO!!!

Seriously though, just wait until the new Ork codex comes out...I don't think anyone will be complaining about Falcons anymore. T6 Warboss with FNP, FTW!!!

GKHERO
01-12-2007, 04:47
Who thinks this list is overpowered? Or "cheesy"?


1479 Points

HQ: Farseer w/ Jetbike + Guide = 113

HQ: Farseer w/ Jetbike + Guide = 113

TROOP: 3x Jetbike w/ Shuriken = 99

TROOP: 3x Jetbike w/ Shuriken = 99

ELITE: 6x Harlequin w/ Shadowseer + Kisses = 162

ELITE: 6x Harlequin w/ Shadowseer + Kisses = 162

ELITE: 6x Fire Dragons w/ Exarch w/ Firepike = 116

HEAVY: Falcon w/ SL + Shuriken + HF + SS + VE = 205

HEAVY: Falcon w/ SL + Shuriken + HF + SS + VE = 205

HEAVY: Falcon w/ SL + Shuriken + HF + SS + VE = 205

This is the list that came in second in last month's tournament (local GW). Second to shooty Nidzilla.

Gives him ~20 points to add Star Cannons if he so wishes or add Runes of Warding vs. Chaos Lash armies.

kendaop
01-12-2007, 04:54
Three falcons? Most people would probably see that as cheesy. I see it as only 29 models in a 1500 point game...I got numbers on my side.

Orbital
01-12-2007, 05:16
How do three jetbikes add up to 231 points?

Sekhmet
01-12-2007, 05:23
No?

I remember Falcons being AV10 in the back.

And I remember them moving fast which, if they are destroyed, means everyone inside gets their damage re-rolled when it crashes.

Av10 in the back isn't anything special, only three vehicles in the entire game (codex lists) have better than Av10 in the rear.

And wow, if it moves more than 6" passengers have to reroll wounds... that sucks! Oh wait, if it moves more than 6" it also can ONLY BE GLANCED.

The only weakness of the Falcon I can think of at the moment is its small, singular opening in the back. It's not even worth mentioning the weakness against armies without "Fast" vehicles or Jetbikes though.

GKHERO
01-12-2007, 05:23
I'm writing this off the top of my head w/o a codex :/

Let me edit really quick!

Edit: There we go. That's what I remember -- I know his troops only consisted of 6 Bikes at a total of 198. The rest were Elites and Heavies. Late night typing, sorry again :P

Orbital
01-12-2007, 05:38
Av10 in the back isn't anything special, only three vehicles in the entire game (codex lists) have better than Av10 in the rear.
You said "It has no real weaknesses other than being easier to kill if it's shot first turn before it's move", and I am telling you that AV10 is weak... which means your statement is incorrect. It's not about how many tanks have AV10, so try to stick with your own points of argument when replying please.


And wow, if it moves more than 6" passengers have to reroll wounds... that sucks! Oh wait, if it moves more than 6" it also can ONLY BE GLANCED.
Again, you said "No weaknesses besides this one thing" and I pointed out two that you missed. I can see you're trying to argue that those aren't actually weaknesses but unfortunately, when a lascannon only has to roll 1 to crack the armor or if you have to re-roll wounds on passengers, those are inarguable weaknesses.

Kahadras
01-12-2007, 08:43
The point is....quit complaining about things that YOU can't beat. Make a better gameplan, and try again, because some of us actually CAN shoot down Falcons, and relish the moment when we do.

So I'm not allowed to say 'I have difficultly taking down Falcon' but you can say 'I have difficulty taking down 20 man squads of Black Templar'? I would recommend you come up with a better gameplan and try again.

Kahadras

Omniassiah
01-12-2007, 16:23
Who thinks this list is overpowered? Or "cheesy"?



This is the list that came in second in last month's tournament (local GW). Second to shooty Nidzilla.

Gives him ~20 points to add Star Cannons if he so wishes or add Runes of Warding vs. Chaos Lash armies.

First I think it would be the easiest Army to beat in the tourny! I have more heavy weapons then then they have models! But hey I play Infantry guard.

And if the list won I will assume that means that the tournament was PURE W/L generalship Tourny. GTs are the most unenjoyable style Tournaments out there, part of the main problem is that they are the pure competitive style tournaments. If your not going there playing to punish your opponent like its your job then your going to be pissed after your done. Not that the games won't be fun but you just have to have the right mentality for it.

I have seen the 3 falcon lists and frankly I consider them easy wins because I play a Horde guard army. But I also realize from running tournaments you need to have other things included in your tournament results:

Sportsmanship - How fun was this guy to play
Appearance - how well was the army painted
Theme(and invariably comp) - Did he have one or did he play mathhammer the night before to make the list?

So if you included that stuff in the tournament then I assume that the guys who came in first and second not only were great generals, had beautifully painted armies, and were an absolute blast to play against. In which case Congrats for them, hope I get a chance to play them at some point.

The way the tournaments are setup will determine the style of the armies that win. The tournaments I run at my LGS winning your games account for about 40% of the overall score. As such you see the people winning being the guys you say afterwards "Man I wanted to play against him!"

That said occasionally it is fun Breaking out the crazy cheesed out power gamed lists, My store ran the King "Cheese" tournament once a year for the past 3 or 4 years. The tourny was setup so that we flipped the comp score so the lower score was worth more.

End result want to see those armies appear less change the ratio of where the points to determine winner comes from.

Logarithm Udgaur
01-12-2007, 17:29
Well not quite the six hundred Xenocidal Maniac predeicted, but there is still hope.

TzeentchForPresident
07-12-2007, 21:36
BUMP!

Since Orbital seems to have forgotten about this topic. You said yourself it was enough Falcon topics after all. No need for another one.

Orbital
07-12-2007, 21:58
BUMP!

Since Orbital seems to have forgotten about this topic. You said yourself it was enough Falcon topics after all. No need for another one.
Hey, dude. Nobody else gives a crap about what I think. Why should I be bound to listen to it? :)

vogelfrei
07-12-2007, 23:23
I don't get the Falcon + Harliething anyway...with FoF they are pretty fast and ignore terrain while the Shadowseer can cover them. And you can take more than 6, wich always is good.
What gives me the edge is Falcon and Firedragons, when I don't get the first turn to stop them blasting my only long range weapon...effectively...

But to be honest Wave Serpent would serve just as well for that task.

To sum it up: Harlequins and Fire Dragons are a bit over the top, but wasting slots for Fire Prisms, Platforms (Yes, they can do some serious damage...), Warwalkers or Lords is not a good idea. Every of these choices cost less then a Falcon and deals a lot more damage. Eldar is a very strong force and i sense it could be FOTM...but Orks are incoming and people are figuring out how to build exploitive Chaos lists effectively...maybe add Necron if the point-level is high enough. (SM will soon enough get what it serves with a new Codex...just like BA and DA...oh...forgot Dark Eldar...they can be good...but are a one trick pony and have too much trouble fighting non MEQ armies I think.)
Bad thing: There are two balance levels of armies, wich can ruin you tournament play, if you like the wrong models...It isn't the Falcon what makes Eldar that strong...it is only one unit wich frustrates opponents a lot, because it is so hard to kill...that's why they cry about it.