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hamster67
27-11-2007, 16:15
Ok i always thought the tau were one of the better races in terms of tactics and battle planning so why do they only have a strategy rating of 1? is this to balance gameplay or am i missing something? in the fluff they always seem to be quite good at battles and it talks about them toppling titan legions at one point. (if i remember correctly, which i probabl don't :p)

Clockwork-Knight
27-11-2007, 16:26
Strategy rating also includes the ability of the army to mobilize and react fast enough to the war situation.

While the Tau forces might perhaps be more flexible than the Imperial Guard, they are heavily outclassed by the Space Marines who are specialised in Hit-and-Run-Tactics, the Eldars of the Craftworld who utilize vile mind-magick to see into the future, and the Inquisition Forces, who have special extra ressources. The Chaos Space Marines and the Dark Eldars are almost always raiders and can easily retreat in safe zones far away from the Tau's reaches.

The Tau might perhaps be the most mobile of the low-tiered army, but nowhere comparable to the above-mentioned.

Mozzamanx
27-11-2007, 16:29
Plus the fact that they are a 'new' race, and so have very little experience fighting the others. For instance, how do they know how to kill orks if they've only fought them a handful of times?

Quentin
27-11-2007, 16:41
Also they don't have Warp-capable spacecraft.

They are a tactically adept army, however, they do not have the ability to affect the larger strategic picture of the 40K galaxy, as they are largely concentrated within thier own Empire.

Clockwork-Knight
27-11-2007, 16:41
I doubt that they would have problems to figure out how to kill Orks. They're the most numerous life-form in the whole galaxy, after all, and one of the very first xeno-races the Tau fought against are the Orks, on many many worlds in their nice corner of the Milky Way. :p

Strategy Rating is about the Ground Forces, however, not the entire faction's ability on a galactic scale. It's only something for the skirmishes for Wh40k.
In Space Battles, the Tau are rather quite capable strategy-wise, although not that strong in terms of armament.

jfrazell
27-11-2007, 17:00
Asking for logic from GW rules is..er a fool's errand.

starlight
27-11-2007, 17:11
It's a *strategy* rating, as opposed to a *tactical* rating. Tau are on par with the best at *tactics*, but still lacking in the *strategy* department as they expand and learn. However I think they should have a *2* instead of a *1*, but I'm sure the *1* is a GW bias more than anything... ;)

Clockwork-Knight
27-11-2007, 17:15
Nah, when compared to Chaos Space Marines and Dark Eldars, I feel that the Strategy rating of 1 is justified. :p

TheBigBadWolf
27-11-2007, 21:30
The stratagy raiting of 1 is to do with their inabilty or unwillingness to engage enemies in hand to hand combat, this effects there overall stratagy ability on the battlefield

Nazguire
27-11-2007, 21:52
The stratagy raiting of 1 is to do with their inabilty or unwillingness to engage enemies in hand to hand combat, this effects there overall stratagy ability on the battlefield

No it wouldn't. The Tau in 40k have more then enough evidence to show us that hand-to-hand (or rather their lack of ) doesn't do anything to hinder their strategy.

I'm with Starlight, it's a GW bias.

Imperialis_Dominatus
27-11-2007, 22:30
And I'm not. The total lack of Warp-capable spacecraft, their essentially tiny spread over the galaxy, and their relative newness makes them less able to manuever on higher scales than represented in 40k than any other race. It's not GW favoritism...

Commander Fastblade
27-11-2007, 23:13
as an army they are very sit back and shoot true in fluff they seem all like great tactitions but as an army they dont always use stratagy

Clockwork-Knight
27-11-2007, 23:32
Well, in the background lore, they generally win against Imperial Guard and Orks, but always get their pants pulled down by the Space Marines, who only retreat because they're few of them anyways, but always leaving a nasty impression upon the Tau.

However, the new Ork codex mentions that for the first time since long, an Ork Warlord has managed to unite a successfull Waaagh against the Farsight Enclave, and is now wittling them down by the very tactics to which O'Shovahs forces are vulnerable... Attrition warfare.

So the Tau are now getting bruised, even if it's rather only against the (anti-)hero Farsight, and not the normal loyalist Tau Empire itself. But should Farsights forces fall, that would surely be a symbol for all Orks nearby that those shooty Tau can easily be defeated, and then... Well, suffice to say that Waaaghs are one of the very most terrifying things in the galaxy...

Imperialis_Dominatus
27-11-2007, 23:35
as an army they are very sit back and shoot true in fluff they seem all like great tactitions but as an army they dont always use stratagy

It's not that they don't, it's that they can't match the other armies. Cannot, due to the disadvantages I mentioned and more. On a small scale, they may (or may not :evilgrin:) outclass forces on a one-to-one basis, but their empire is simply too small to be able to effect the influence and resources on the galaxy the other races have. Simple as that.

starlight
28-11-2007, 00:03
However we don't engage in System or Sector wide battles where Strategy would come into play. We battle at the Tactical level where Tau have many advantages including mobility and firepower, lacking only in general HtH ability.

Much of Tau Doctrine involves key points from the classics of human warfare. Maneouverability, forcing the enemy to fight on your terms, using your strengths and your enemies weaknesses'. All of these point to a greater overall knowledge and willingness to learn than many other forces (with the possible exception of the Eldar races).

In regards to overall strategic abilities (within their sphere of experience) I'd say that the Tau should have a SR of 2 on the current 1-3 scale. However, I think that my beloved IG should be at 1 due to their inflexibility on the basis of size.

But what do I know...? ;)

Imperialis_Dominatus
28-11-2007, 00:32
Well, I think that IG have enough cover and support to overcome their disadvantages to some extent, enough that their current level seems justified to me. But I'll just agree to disagree here.

Dartganan
28-11-2007, 02:04
Remember, the Tau closely match modern warfare in general: fast moving heavy armor and infantry, precision long range weapons, and a more maneuvering approach to warfare in general. If WH40k involved a strategic movement option, the Tau was beat many other armies, maybe not the hyper mobile SM or Eldar, but nearly every other army lacks the movement of the Tau.

(Yes, individual units of other armies are fast, but the Tau are nearly entire built on speed)

The Tau would have a better advantage in larger scale games, say Epic, but, because 40k is smaller battles, the lower Tau rating makes sense.
If the Tau had their way, the WH40k battles would be between a inferior enemy force and a superior Tau force which had outmaneuvered their opponents.

Ivan Stupidor
28-11-2007, 02:13
If the Tau had their way, the WH40k battles would be between a inferior enemy force and a superior Tau force which had outmaneuvered their opponents.

If any army had their way the battles would be between an inferior enemy force and a superior friendly force that had outmanoeuvred their opponent.

BrotherAdso
28-11-2007, 03:04
On a small scale, they may (or may not :evilgrin:) outclass forces on a one-to-one basis, but their empire is simply too small to be able to effect the influence and resources on the galaxy the other races have. Simple as that.

I think we're failing to distinguish between
1) Tactics
2) Theater Strategy
3) Grand Strategy
4) Logistical Strategy

The Strategy Rating in 40k is meant to represent the second -- hence Tyranids, who are rather unlikely to have a brilliant and cunning large-scale plan which is catching the opponent off-balance, have a low rating.

Theater strategy doesn't need to incorporate much in the way of 3) and 4), it has more to do with figuring out a larger series of coordinated actions -- task force A will attack the fords, drawing out the enemy reinforcements, allowing task force B to attack the communications center, which will disorient them long enough for task force C to move across the bridges here. Stuff like pincer movements, armored reserves, and the Schlieffen Plan.

Which is why it makes no sense that Tau have a low strategy rating. Done and done. Because, as we've said, GW's rules don't have to, and rarely do, make sense.

-Adso

shutupSHUTUP!!!
28-11-2007, 16:59
I always assumed it was because they were the youngest race in 40k. How does the average Tau commander know the best way to take on a Chaos Space Marines army? Aren't they just a few dozen debased humans with pointy things anyway? Off we go then haha... Urk.

Space Marines are jumping out of space-to-surface missiles and slaughtering his army, before high command even had time to warn him there was enemy ship in orbit. Wtf is this? hax

Where are the spiky Eldar coming from and what do they have against innocent civililians? It's not a logical military strategy! wai?!

They probably understand themselves (which is important) but not the enemy at large and have a lot to learn.

Dartganan
29-11-2007, 02:22
You forget that the Tau try to learn the fastest of all the races. While they may not have the experience, they do have the societal structure that allows for rapid learning of new information.

Given their "growing abilities" they'll be very well versed in a few hundred years, if the time-line advances.... Unlike the Empire or the Eldar, their technology is increasing and their military structure appears to be very open to new information.

(As a major caveat, they will not understand warp based attacks, creatures, etc. for a long time, because they lack the psyche to understand that)

Clockwork-Knight
29-11-2007, 02:41
Their low strategy rating is warranted, because all the other forces with a rating of 2 and/or 3 are thematically (although not necessarily rules-wise) always the attacker who pick upon the others. The Tau get attacked by Space Marines, by the Inquisition, get raided by Eldar, Dark Eldar and Chaos Space Marines, and have to react to them.

Nazguire
29-11-2007, 04:26
Their low strategy rating is warranted, because all the other forces with a rating of 2 and/or 3 are thematically (although not necessarily rules-wise) always the attacker who pick upon the others. The Tau get attacked by Space Marines, by the Inquisition, get raided by Eldar, Dark Eldar and Chaos Space Marines, and have to react to them.


The Tau attack as much as everyone else. Their Codex repeats every other sentence how ''dynamic", "expansionist", "vigorous" etc they are in their Empire's advancement. Have as much right to a higher strategy rating based on how much they attack other races as anyone else.

Badusername
29-11-2007, 15:17
Tau are not worse tactician than eldar or sm. They can have the same number on the roll, just the number of dice roled are different, and while this will make difference, isn’t that much of a difference fluff wise…
Nonetheless, tau are somewhat na´ve when picking their fights… and that should be taken into account… is like the fluff discussion of who would win between the eldar or the sm, it’s very difficult to settle because according to fluff eldars only attack when they know victory is theirs, and so does SM. (or rather because they attack victory is theirs? :) this is something that can’t be said of the tau...
What I’m trying to say is: imagine a guard platoon crash lands ala HALO… the IG, just acting on the experience of their officers can somewhat hold their own… can you picture the isolated tau units doing that very well?
(Now that I think of it, what if we make the Halo setting a 40k? Master chief a SM, the soldiers IG, the covenant would be Tau)
And tau are somewhat na´ve… I insist. Compare the toughness (not the stat, but the “mystic imagery” wich makes Conan best Donald duck… the “Machoness”), of a CC troop of any of the darker armies in 40k with the fact that when tau see their beautiful ethereal killed they want to fall back to cry because they are afraid that the death of that single individual would bring back the tau age of strife…
Tell anyone in the empire if they care about it…
(some of this post is meant to be funny, not tau bashing... i really like the little blue things)
In general i think it's ok their 1.

Clockwork-Knight
29-11-2007, 15:32
The Tau attack as much as everyone else. Their Codex repeats every other sentence how ''dynamic", "expansionist", "vigorous" etc they are in their Empire's advancement. Have as much right to a higher strategy rating based on how much they attack other races as anyone else.But they don't attack Space Marines-settlements, Eldar Craftworlds, Chaos Space Marines-bases, Dark Eldar-cities or such whatever, because these factions don't have anything like that at all to be attacked by the Tau. These factions are all normally the attacker, and it's they who attack Tau encampments. They might belong to the upper tier of the SR-1-armies, but it still would make them only a Rating 1, not a 2, like the Dark Eldars or the Chaos Space Marines, who are far more mobile and have aggressive hit-and-run-tactics than your Tau Hunting Cadre. These two factions don't defend anything at all. Tau Firewarriors on the other hand have to delay the attacks of other armies to allow their Water and Earth-Caste brethren to flee, or divert the attention of the attacker to another false goal.

Badusername
29-11-2007, 16:42
You know that you are a dumb when someone says what you were trying to, much easily, and clear. I can proudly say I agree with CKnight

Nazguire
29-11-2007, 21:37
But they don't attack Space Marines-settlements, Eldar Craftworlds, Chaos Space Marines-bases, Dark Eldar-cities or such whatever, because these factions don't have anything like that at all to be attacked by the Tau. These factions are all normally the attacker, and it's they who attack Tau encampments. They might belong to the upper tier of the SR-1-armies, but it still would make them only a Rating 1, not a 2, like the Dark Eldars or the Chaos Space Marines, who are far more mobile and have aggressive hit-and-run-tactics than your Tau Hunting Cadre. These two factions don't defend anything at all. Tau Firewarriors on the other hand have to delay the attacks of other armies to allow their Water and Earth-Caste brethren to flee, or divert the attention of the attacker to another false goal.

Who honestly does attack Space Marine homeworlds, Eldar Craftworlds, Chaos Marines Base and Commoragh? Barring a few exceptions, these places are pretty much on the 'too hard to be cracked' list.

Who says the Chaos Marines don't have anything to defend? They may be on the warpath but they sure try and hold on to what they already have conquered. Planet of Steel is one example.

Imperialis_Dominatus
29-11-2007, 21:38
You know that you are a dumb when someone says what you were trying to, much easily, and clear. I can proudly say I agree with CKnight

I spent three paragraphs explaining away what someone summed up in a sentence and ended up posting right before me. I know how it feels, dude. :cool: Actually, not cool. I mean::eek:

SwordJon
29-11-2007, 22:27
Low strategy rating could be from a number of facts. In the case of the Imperial Guard, it is an excessively large and unwieldy force that their opponent knows is coming, for example. In the case of the Tyranids it's because the Hive Fleet is quite obviously on it's way, and there's only so much maneuvering the Hive Mind can do with the size of the forces it commands over a sub-sector or solar system. While these may not be the only reason for low SR's, they are certainly contributing reasons.

The opposite is true for the Space Marines. They are a small, highly equipped, motivated, mobile force that can gain intelligence against a foe in a number of ways and almost always has the tools for the job that needs done when acting on that intelligence. The Eldar can practically see into the future, and also lay claim to some of the most mobile star ships in the galaxy, as well as a number of webway gates. They are also, again, highly equipped, motivated, mobile force that can gain intelligence against a foe in a number of ways and almost always has the tools for the job that needs done.

To me, SR's have always represented an armies ability to respond to intelligence and mobilize responses on a large-scale, over a long distance, and in a short period of time: hence why the person who wins the strategy roll off gets to decide what kind of small-scale action will be played in the mission!

Badusername
30-11-2007, 05:08
ID: you are perfectly right... but it always happens to good, nice people as us...:angel: not to scary people with evil avatars as nazguire!

(Lord Nazguire, it's a joke! your posts are actually very clear and well written).

Easy E
30-11-2007, 10:33
Because Tau only live 50 years, and everyone else in the galaxy lives 100+. hence, they don't have time to gather as much practical experience.