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Darmort
14-04-2005, 17:36
Warhammer Fantasy is growing...... into... a cheese fest. That's right, on Druchii.net there's another discussion like this, by the way, many people play the game to win.
Although I've not experianced this myself (except from my 3 Necromancer friend), many people hate the game because Chaos players have only Chaos Knights, newbies are introduced into the game and go for the best things possible, like Chaos Knights, entire gunnery lines, such as the Bretonnian RAF, the SAD, the Stroigi Circus, and more.
In the end, most players play cheesy, beardy, double cheesy and quadruple cheesy armies, does anyone still believe that Warhammer fantasy is just a game, and not a competition? How many of you see the fun in it?

Sentinel75
14-04-2005, 18:01
I can see how this can be a problem for a lot of people..this is why I dont play with just "anyone" and NEVER at a GT or RTT.

Here is what we do to combat "cheese" :

Get a group of like minded folks in a private wargames group.

Play scenarios with set forces.

Teach rookies the beauty of the "balanced" game and "realistic" armies.

Play game mastered campaigns that ensure list balance and arbitration.

Two words : "House Rules" Dont like something? Fix it democratically. Our group fixed many things this way, from "unfair" challenges to halbards. Warhammer is meant to be a starting point for war game rules not a end all be all!

taer
14-04-2005, 18:17
Your second choice is to bring a base-ball bat, and when that jerk at the GT with Archaon and three units of knights, one of them chosen (though not the only gold unit, but one of the two silver ones.....the one that happened to be with the least amount of casualties caused to it by the time they reached my lines >:0 ), smash his army, or his face (whichever you feel like is the best) with it untill it meets fair and equitable gaming standards.

Festus
14-04-2005, 18:17
Hi

Just curious: Which change do Halberds need?

Festus

Wargamejunkie
14-04-2005, 18:24
And what I would like to know, is what your definition of cheezy is, most of the times I found that people use this term whne they cant beat the army. Because heaven forbid you have to change your playing style when you get beat. I see you play dark elfs, you got problems with knights take a bolt thower please dont call something cheezy just because you try to take out something with a 2+ save with a strength 3 weapon.

taer
14-04-2005, 18:27
I find Archaon in 2000 points cheesy, and I think switching whatever unit is your Chosen to best help (as if you needed it with F!@##@! Archaon) your game, and then being a little prat about it, cheating. And Cheesy, since I hate that guy.

Darmort
14-04-2005, 18:33
It's not that fact I can't beat them, I'd use my Glar'Nar-Touth army (all Shades, Dark Riders and a few Warriors) and ring circles around them.

My definition of cheesy is; Over powered units (like Chaos Knights), lots of guns (Dwarfs with lots of cannons, thunders and shooty death), Skaven SAD, Bretonnia RAF (lots of Pegi Knights......), even hordes of Chaos with nothing but Chaos Warriors and Knights is cheesy, why? Because they're mostly hard to beat. You get no fun out of the game when fighting a cheesy army, people who play cheesy usually think it as a competition, and not a fun game.

Wargamejunkie
14-04-2005, 18:36
How many points does Archaon cost, I dont have the book right in front of me but I know he is not cheap. Now it wouldnt really be fair to him if the guy cost a 1/4 of his points and cant kill anything now would it. Well if he is changing what unit is the chosen one that is cheating, what I would advise is eaither writeing it down on a peice of paper and moving it with the unit or bringing in some special model to point out which one is chosen. My group had a guy who did this so we made a littel model, now its hard for him to cheat. He is one of those guys of "yea they had it in a article that both rank of my lead belchers can shoot" but when asked about where it was has no idea.

taer
14-04-2005, 18:56
Well, you see, I think Archaon is cheesy because when I completely surrounded him with ranked up units (Since I don't have anything available to me to shoot him with), and he kicks my ass three turns in a row before his buddies show up, With all my bonuses and crap, I'm thinking there is something seriously wrong with taking him in a relatively low points game, at a GT.

Now, If I had known he would have brought Archaon, I think I would have splurged and brought Mr. High elf Dragon with Null stone to teach him a lesson. But since I didn't know, I brought my tournament Daemon army, and proceeded to get torn to shreds. By one model. Which, if your in a tournament, and winning your games by using a single special character from hell, I think you need to see someone.

Similarly, at the same tournament, another prat, though thankfully I didn't play him, brought a dark elf army with Morathi, a beastmaster on manticore, and two war hydras (using the unofficial hydra upgrades form the 2002 annual, because GW is way too lazy to check people's lists for legality anymore). I think that is beyond pushing the bounds for reasonable army selection (which, by the way, is not worth enough points to make it worth dick).

Kul
14-04-2005, 19:00
Hmm, he isn't to good..
they have only few 360 LoS units, which provides you can stay out of LOS ;)

Ethereal Alpaca
14-04-2005, 19:03
I don't see that many cheesy armies myself, but I only go to one gaming club and have never been to a tourney. Th ebest way to defeat a cheesy player is to fight fire with fire. Take the cheeziest, beardiest army possible, and then fight him with it as often as possible. He should realise eventually...

Stouty
14-04-2005, 19:15
I've often had ideas for super cheesy armies and always rejected them, the problem is I've had an idea which though cheesy is not unbeatable by anyones standereds and has really nice fluff.
I've only played one truly cheesy army but I beat him because he was crap and forgettful ("could you let my knights charge you in the flank, I forgot to charge them", too right he bloody well did; it was MY turn by then).

Darmort
14-04-2005, 19:19
Hydra upgrades aren't illegal, though.

And you can only use one per Army List.

Anyway, this is a topic about players, not Archaon, ;)

I can't really add much right now, as a few lines will take a while, and I'm about to go to bed.

Outcast995
14-04-2005, 19:43
If u dont want to play against cheese players don't go to th tornements there is nothing we can do to fight the cheese so just don't fight it. Or u can fight it and use ur superior straigy and skill to whoop their ass and teach them a lesson they would not soon forget :) .

Trunks
14-04-2005, 21:46
It's not that fact I can't beat them, I'd use my Glar'Nar-Touth army (all Shades, Dark Riders and a few Warriors) and ring circles around them.

My definition of cheesy is; Over powered units (like Chaos Knights), lots of guns (Dwarfs with lots of cannons, thunders and shooty death), Skaven SAD, Bretonnia RAF (lots of Pegi Knights......), even hordes of Chaos with nothing but Chaos Warriors and Knights is cheesy, why? Because they're mostly hard to beat. You get no fun out of the game when fighting a cheesy army, people who play cheesy usually think it as a competition, and not a fun game.

You are confusing Powerful with Overpowerful.

Chaos Knights are Powerful, but an appropriate amount of poins are paid for them. They would be overpowered if they cost too little for what they do, and they don't.

An army of nothing of Chaos Warriors and Chaos Knights is not cheesy at all. Have you ever actually seen a 2000 point army list with nothing but warriors and knights? It's stupidly small. Warriors are arguably overpriced to begin with anyway. They are elite, but so small and outnumbered it's ridiculous. You are looking at maybe two cavalry groups and two warrior groups and that's it. If you have troubles beating that then you need to try other tactics, especially using dark elves. It should be hard for the Chaos Player to win if you have a half decent balanced dark elf force.

You are limiting yourself to nothing but warriors, shades, and dark riders. Don't complain about things being too powerful if you are limiting yourself in options you have to deal with stuff. It gives you a skewed view on stuff.

The Skaven Shooty Army of Death contains things that are too powerful for their points. Chaos Knights are hardly underpriced.

Wargamejunkie
14-04-2005, 22:42
I dont see how you can really get angry at him beating you in hand to hand when you both brought hand to hand armies and his was better. Its like the all slayer army saying that they have problems with skirmishers or a dogs of war army with problems in leadership. You choose to play a deamon army, one that has no shooting, medium magic if you choose to use it, and poor movement. It is pretty easy to see why this army got beat by the all chaos knight army, but did you see how well he did against his opponents, I bet against any army with some decent shooting he was torn apart.

Now dont get me wrong, I never use special charactors, I view their use to be few and far apart but thats just me. In this edition I view their point costs pretty fair for what they can do.

Slappy
14-04-2005, 23:19
You know what I hate worse about the hobby than cheesers? Whiney army list nitpickers like alot of you. I don't CARE what army my opponent brings to the table. I am gonna play my army MY way and I am going to have fun with it. I have played against the cheesy Chaos lists and I have played against the SAD list, etc etc. I still have fun in these games! I also do not expect my opponents to handicap themselves. If I lose (and I do alot) then I know I at least played with a balanced army and I didn't win using alot of over powered units.

And you know what? I hope the people I play against are as good as sports as me because I am assembling an army of Slayers, in which there are around 15+ Doomseekers.

taer
14-04-2005, 23:22
Hydra upgrades aren't illegal, though.

And you can only use one per Army List.


Since they are an optional rule, and therefore require your opponenets consent, and all optional rules are disallowed at the GT, then I'm pretty sure that means it was an illegitimate upgrade.

Lord Lucifer
14-04-2005, 23:31
Warhammer Fantasy is growing...... into... a cheese fest. That's right, on Druchii.net there's another discussion like this, by the way, many people play the game to win.
Although I've not experianced this myself (except from my 3 Necromancer friend), many people hate the game because Chaos players have only Chaos Knights, newbies are introduced into the game and go for the best things possible, like Chaos Knights, entire gunnery lines, such as the Bretonnian RAF, the SAD, the Stroigi Circus, and more.
In the end, most players play cheesy, beardy, double cheesy and quadruple cheesy armies, does anyone still believe that Warhammer fantasy is just a game, and not a competition? How many of you see the fun in it?
You claim Warhammer is growing into a 'cheese fest'

You offer no evidence to back up that claim. You don't have global awareness of every gamer, you don't know what a club in, say, Paris is doing.

You then even compromise your point on the local basis, which is the only place you can personally vouch for, saying apart from a 'three necromancer' army you haven't experienced it yourself.


Come live in New Zealand, our national-level tournaments are gloriously free of 'cheese', the opponents are good people, laid-back types who enjoy a good game, give a good game, but play it just to enjoy a few hours with fellow gamers
If even half the bitching I hear on forums is true, I must be living in some sort of utopia ;)

Cheers
-Luci

TK421
15-04-2005, 15:54
You know what I hate worse about the hobby than cheesers? Whiney army list nitpickers like alot of you. I don't CARE what army my opponent brings to the table. I am gonna play my army MY way and I am going to have fun with it. I have played against the cheesy Chaos lists and I have played against the SAD list, etc etc. I still have fun in these games! I also do not expect my opponents to handicap themselves. If I lose (and I do alot) then I know I at least played with a balanced army and I didn't win using alot of over powered units.

And you know what? I hope the people I play against are as good as sports as me because I am assembling an army of Slayers, in which there are around 15+ Doomseekers.


Well, I'm glad I'mnot the only one who isn't completly insane :p

flytail
15-04-2005, 17:06
I think cheese armies are bad, and should be looked down on. They should have a point rating at each tournament penalizing people for the kind of cheese they select. The rules should be that you are allowed a ratio of troop/elite/special choices, and even then those rules should be cautioned when dealing with armies like chaos.

For me it's a matter of "how real" things seem. For example, I have 20 black guard for my DE army in fantasy. I never really use them becuase I wonder how the hell the "guard" would bother showing up with a 1000 pt army, or for that matter why the son of the witch queen would allow this. I guess in a 2000 pt game I'd feel ok fielding them, then it might call for a guard detatchment.

If you have a unit that is supposedly a 4 person in a glorious army, then why do I see you across the board having 20 of them? That simply tells me you don't really care about the story behind the game. That's ok, that's you.

To be polite I think I will just hand the game over to the cheese player. Simple as that. "You win, your army can best mine, I don't enjoy this. Thank you for the oppurtunity to see your lovely army"

The supposed, "Well just cheese your army out too!" solution doesn't work. I am not cheesing out my army just to match up to said cheese player.

Perhaps it is a lack of people standing up to others and not having the balls to say something.

Wargamejunkie
15-04-2005, 17:30
Or simply instead of giving up you look for a way to beat them using better tactics and troop movement and placement. I have even gone to the point of if I am playing someone I know who isnt all that good we agree I will give him another 500-1000 points over me, depends on the game system 40k or warhammer. This will even out the playing field then after the game I point out tactical errors and the eventually get better and dont need the help in points.

5upr3m3 h4xx0rz
15-04-2005, 18:39
If you ever play a cheesed-out army get a repeater bolt thrower and just shoot them at his favourite units. I know that as a previous chaos player whenever i would lose my chosen chaos knights of khorne, i would be utterly devastated, and it would make me nervous about how to progress for the rest of the game. After a little bit i realized that my whole army shouldnt be based on them getting in cc and based my army around my warriors.

I used to play one of the aforementioned all chaos knight and warrior list, and it think it works very well. I have 3 units of 15, and two units of knights, and all my heros and lords are in chariots. It actually works pretty well.

Stouty
15-04-2005, 18:55
I've beat this said khorn cheese fest.
Lots of knights.
Lots of zombies
Combat Res:
3 ranks
Standered
Outnumber
Rear
1 kill (from Black knights in flank)
total:7

5 kills
standered
Total: 6

Win by one outnumbered by fear causing enemy. An awful lot of points ran into the ground
repeat until done

Darmort
15-04-2005, 19:20
I'm not whining that I can't beat them, I can't PLAY them, that's what I said in my first post, that the only encounter with a cheesy army I've seen is my friends.



You are looking at maybe two cavalry groups and two warrior groups and that's it. If you have troubles beating that then you need to try other tactics, especially using dark elves. It should be hard for the Chaos Player to win if you have a half decent balanced dark elf force.

I must of said this a million times before, but; I DO NOT PLAY AGAINST CHAOS (expect against my unexperienced friend).



You offer no evidence to back up that claim. You don't have global awareness of every gamer, you don't know what a club in, say, Paris is doing.

I said there's a discussion like this going on over at Druchii.net..... :rolleyes:



Whiney army list nitpickers like alot of you.

Nitpicker? That's a new one, :P (And thanks for flaming me)
Army lists are chosen to persona, if people cry about a Bretonnian army having few Knight, BIG ********** WHOOP! It's someone's army, if they don't like Knights but want a Bretonnian Army, it's their call!
All I'm saying is that is gets boring fighting the same army again and again, :rolleyes:


This topic was to ask if people felt the same way about competitive players who play to win, not to have fun.


*Leaves the topic, and most likely the sight from all the people flaming him*

Wargamejunkie
15-04-2005, 20:14
Well, I do see then point of not wanting to play the same kind of army over and over. I found the best remedy is to beat them into the ground.

*Dont understand why people act like they are actually doing what they are talking about by putting little ***'s everywhere.

Just having some fun :D

Festus
15-04-2005, 22:39
Hi

Come live in New Zealand, our national-level tournaments are gloriously free of 'cheese', the opponents are good people, laid-back types who enjoy a good game, give a good game, but play it just to enjoy a few hours with fellow gamers
If even half the bitching I hear on forums is true, I must be living in some sort of utopia ;)

Well, you do, literaryly speaking he called it *Erewhon*, though! :)

Greetings
Festus

anarchistica
16-04-2005, 00:29
Just curious: Which change do Halberds need?
Poles.

And it depends on who you play with. My now-dead gaming group consisted of non-beardy players who played for fun and loved the background of their armies.

Etienne de Beaugard
16-04-2005, 00:33
Don't expect 'friendly games' on the tournament circuit. If you are encountering this type of thing at your local game store, either find a new playing venue, or just mangle the unbalanced annoyances with a well designed, balanced list.

khedyarl
16-04-2005, 00:43
Unfortunately, this entire thread seems to be built out of flame-bait, but I shall bite.

To begin with, Darmort, two Forums on the internet is not a sufficient enough collection of human beings to run a poll that encompasses the entire earth, as you seem to be implying. Druuchi.net is a primarily Dark-Elf {Primarily, I said, not entirely} based Forum to begin with, as such that cuts down your potential candidates even further.

I have found with warhammer fantasy, that there is no single army that any other army cannot beat. Quite plainly, quite simply. The game has been refined to the point that almost any army can defeat any other army, as long as the player is able to adapt quickly to the situation at hand. An adaptable player, and a flexible armylist will always defeat any single army put up against it. Facing Archaon? Shoot or magic his horse out from under him to slow him down. Facing the Skaven SAD? Use Terrain to it's absolute maximum, and take full advantage of your larger units. Pick off the little stuff with magic, whittle down the mainstay units with shooting, then combat.

The key point is to stay flexible. The armylist and player makes the game, not 'overpowerful' units.

{By the way, Armoured-companies are cheesy, heh}

-Conan

Crazy Harborc
16-04-2005, 01:48
Well, my regular opponents don't do the cheesey armies that much. Um, the youngest player.........middle to late 20s. The others are in their 50s plus. I am NOT the oldest at 61 :)

Now once a week or so, I (we) go to the GW store for a little gaming with the young ones. Most of them are in their 20s. One guy does seem to always pick a cheesey army, a "power army". So far they are all good natured. A couple of us don't care for the magic phase. It's in the rules so, oh well.

If all the GW systems gamers you know are cheeseball players.....look around your area for guys doing "other rules systems". GW and it's rules and minies IS NOT all there is to wargaming. GW is just the company doing all the needed stuff for gaming.......IF you play their systems.

m1s1n
16-04-2005, 01:50
I think the reason why so many people are quick to accuse others of whining is the lack of supportive evidence people give. Unfortunately, opinion is not enough to prove a point--neither is observed occurance. If you want to win anyone over you need to really supply us with some hard and heavy fact. Additionally, originality will get you everywhere. Talking about Chaos, Skaven, and Brets will only bring up the points that have been covered many times on this board. I recommend trying to offer solutions to people--that way it looks like you are being more productive. As it stands, this thread is really nothing more than a shouting fest in content. It is difficult to do, but you should always try to be objective in your statements, relative comments seem like complaining.

I think this is why so many people get heated over topics involving "cheese" and "revision"--a lot of people do not try to prove their points objectively, nor do they try and offer any real productive suggestions. Instead the threads get filled with subjective statements that look like whining.

As for your current dilemma, or anyone else finding themselves in a similar position--it is not worth playing a game that you do not enjoy. If you find yourself against opponents that you do not enjoy playing against find some new people to play with. There is a lot of enjoyment in winning, it affirms our pride--however, losing should not be upsetting. I play against people I enjoy playing with because I know that it does not really matter who has won at the end--as long as the game was enjoyable it is time well spent.

Crazy Harborc
16-04-2005, 02:37
THAT.......is a " adult mind wargamer's" attitude. IMHO, if you "must" win no matter what....go play with/by/against yourself. When I am up against a cheese army/player, I go for laughs (for me). I can have fun win or lose, that is a advantage of not having to win to prove myself to myself or others.

Lord Lucifer
16-04-2005, 02:51
I said there's a discussion like this going on over at Druchii.net.....
And because there's a discussion on the subject at Druchii.net that must mean it's true?

Please, explain the logic to me ;)

For there to be a real discussion, there must be opposing views, otherwise it's a group of guys agreeing with each other
The fact that the discussion is taking place is not proof, however.
Discussing what I'd do with the several million dollars offered by the lottery is not proof of having won the lottery


As I said, back it up with facts and I'll respect the point more
But as it stands, you're complaining about 'cheese' with nothing to back it up other than "People on the internet complain about it" (much like fish swim, birds fly for the most part, the sun shines, and my dice hate me)


And for the record, using the word 'cheese' should be a strikeworthy offence ;)

Trunks
16-04-2005, 03:32
If I recall correctly, he's done this sort of stuff before on other forums as well. As soon as I saw the name I knew it wouldn't be argued all that well.

Crazy Harborc
17-04-2005, 02:05
But why clutter up a good rant with lots of boring, hard to read and stay awake evidence?? Beisdes it might be said that one persons cheese is anothers "fluff army".

Lord_Sanguinius
17-04-2005, 04:33
Most of the people i play dont have alot of cheese. but what i'm trying to say is, that some people just do it for winning. but i dont see the fun of it if you dont even have a chance.

Delicious Soy
17-04-2005, 06:50
I think people need a trip down memory lane, or at least how the plan is supposed to work. Gather 'round younglings!

OK, Characters and powerful units are there to draw people into the hobby. I know what intially drew me in was not "Holy crap! Troop choices! I gotta get me some guardians!", it was me and my friend boasting the leetness of "OMFG! 300pt Avatar pwns Bloodthirster!" (rest assured this was me at 14-15). When you start off characters and the potential of such heavy hitters is whats supposed to draw you in, because even if you don't take up the hobby, you will have purchased some huge freaking dragon or something.

Now here comes the next step which people seem to be having so much trouble with. As you get into the hobby you are supposed to get into the swing of things, realise there's more to an army than just the general (including gasp! character!). Then you are supposed to be able to develop an army that has a background, AKA a THEME! Ergo, you buy troops and characterful little bit and bobs that comprise your army.

Now comes my rant,

Part I: I hate teenagers! :p

There has been in the last 4 to 5 years another generational shift. Those people around my age (early 20s) could go either way (ie. you could be classed as generation X or generation Y). This system used by GW worked well in generation X, given the prediliction for brooding and unusually large scale noncomformity (mainly because unlike in the 60s it went in about 30 different directions). Modern Gamers however, come from the need to win at all costs, the end is what is important as opposed to the journey (yes I am now speaking in riddles :p). Therefore for the most part (I know there are still those fighting the good fight) these uber armies of low models/ridiculous power remain with these players and so does their silly over comeptitive attitude. Balance is important in this hobby for many, yet it is forgotten by these butt monkeys who insist on having an army of doom.

Part II: Cheese is a dish best served annoying

What is cheese? Some would argue it doesn't exist. Some would argue that just about every army has an incarnation of it and gives it a snappy little title. I say that not only does this list make cheese, but it takes the player behind it. I saw someone mention that all armoured chaos army is cheesy. What would you say to a Khornate army of that sort? No doubt you'd simply cede the match and find somone else.

My friend has a Khornate army, san marauders.

It is not a cheesy list. I do not get irritated playing, in fact we have a lot of fun. Know why? He's not an ******, nor are either of us the next Patton. He has a series of nice conversions, and some completely off the wall ones. Each game will have its fair share of stuff ups, both in rules interpretation, and tacitcal errors. Yet admist our buffoonery a decent game is fought and somone emerges the victor, the best being a solid victory to my TK army.

Lets switch systems and situation.

Last tourney I played I had a game against a 12-13 year old with a bezerker army against my Ulthwe army. I was on 1 solid victory and one massacre (as in me getting massacred :p). Both had been incredibly good games with people I'd never met before.

It would not be a hat trick of fun.

This kid was boring as hell to play against, in fact it was playing against a computer. The bezerkers simply walked up to my line, and methodically cut down my army. I was so bored I let him finish it with a massacre as a mercy killing. To be fair, he was young, I'm sure at his age I wasn't exactly one of the most engaging of people, yet the game lost all flavour because he'd taken an army that would win, painted it to an acceptable standard and let loose. THe lack of character in both the player and his army combined to make it the worst game I've ever played. If you're going to play these games, at least take a unit with interesting rules or make your army's appearance interesting. And show a bit of spirit/interest with the person you're playing.

There thats better. Now go outside and play! :p

Storm21
17-04-2005, 09:01
How many points does Archaon cost, I dont have the book right in front of me but I know he is not cheap. Now it wouldnt really be fair to him if the guy cost a 1/4 of his points and cant kill anything now would it.

In a 2000pt game, hes more like half, Archeon is cheesy, until he meets Mr Cannon or Mr I dont allow ward saves. Fight cheese with cheese! ;). BTW, I play Dark Elfs also, and find that loosing with them against cheesy armies, simply allows me to develop methods to beating them, and although loosing to them at first is EXTREMELY boring, its brilliantly funny when you see there army being obliterated by 3 cavalry charges :D Soul Shadows standard works wonders against cheese...

Lord Lucifer
17-04-2005, 09:32
Archaons 3+ ward and four Wounds are pretty good protection against cannons (and the three crew are poor protection against the Slayer of Kings :p)


The thing about cheese is people fail to adequately define it, it's about as meaningful as 'goth' and 'punk', everyone knows absolutely what it is, but no two people can agree on it

I find a good rule of thumb is it's the thing you hate facing most, and yet becomes the first 'must have' when you collect a given army:
Play against skaven? Oh the ratling gun is cheesy as hell... start collecting a Skaven army? They can't win without ratling guns!
Play against Elves? Damn cheesy bolt throwers. Start collecting Elves, goodbye Rare slots!
Chaos Lords are Cheesy... oh no, my Chaos army is crippled without a Chaos Lord


'Cheese' is a state of mind. The state of mind held by those who most strongly complain about it, and who are unappolagetic when they themselves use it

If you play a guy who doesn't respect your right to enjoy the game, then there's a good chance his competative army is a 'cheese' army... if he's a nice guy and you're enjoying your defeat, it's a 'competative army'



[/rambling]

Wargamejunkie
17-04-2005, 15:55
I also think it has something to do with the players, the more competitative ones are gonna have the stronger lists while the more laid back will more than likely have the fun list. What needs to happen is if you bring a fun list to the battle fight smarter not harder because the "Cheesy" armies will most likely outshine you at one thing, CC, Shooting or Magic, or be better across the board.

Trunks
18-04-2005, 01:58
I personally just hate the term "cheesy" (and even more that stupid term "beardy").

What is "cheesy" shoudl be called "overpowered". Something is overpowered is something that is too good for it's points. Not something that is powerful that costs alot of points.

Archaon costs nearly 800 points. You should have to use nearly that many points to take him down and he should routinely take out around 800 points if used correctly.

There are things you can't equate with a simple "gets back it's points thing", like fast cavalry that never kills a thing but sets up other regiments to kill stuff. But I think the point is still fairly clear.

It's not "cheesy" if the point costs are close to fair. Very few things in the game are overpowered. Ratling guns are about the only thing I can think of really that cost too few points for their average amount of damage over the course of a game.

Stouty
18-04-2005, 20:03
I think you're in denial over your own beardiness.

"May your beard go long and your soup bristlely"

daryl_ks
18-04-2005, 20:22
I would love to start a campaign using warbands and slowly build up to large armies... USing a plot line and background story to drive the focus of the game beyond simple one-off 2000 points clash... I would also love to have a group of people who would be into building specific terrain pieces for this grand campaign... Characters would also grow using experience (there was something in WD about this)... I can alomost see this idea coming to fruition!!! All I need is a group of like-minded gamers...

What's that?

You'd prefer to play a 2000 point game with as many characters as possible... oh well..

Roll your dice, scumbag!

Cheers!

Daryl

Galadrin
18-04-2005, 22:31
Something can be considered cheesy by yourself if your has no possible way to counter it effectively, and is easily and effortlessly defeated by it whenever your opponent chooses to field it. It actually exists, you just have to play enough games of Warhammer with enough people to encounter it (and it exists somewhere between the Sea of Blades and the Chaos Wastes, for me ; )

taer
18-04-2005, 23:07
So what about Tyrions garunteed 2+invulnerable save for at least one wound, and possibly even two? Or Teclis's ability to cast that radius spell from the lore of heavens over the entire table?

Special characters in the game generally come in two types.

One, the type that are far too overpowered for what you spend on them
and two: Those that aren't particularly powerful and that generally change the way the army is played.

Thankfully special characters are a rare occurance....except at the GT's, where I have seen more of them played than at any other time in my life.

Crazy Harborc
18-04-2005, 23:38
One of the plus benefits of playing more than GW's rules..........it can be a little easier to put up with "problems" with some GW army lists and players. I am lucky the opponents I normally play against are for the most part wargamers who want fun not cheesy armies. One player is IMHO, a cheeseball power gamer. I say that because in the last campaign we got the option to change army/races if we chose to. He went from cheese army to cheese army. Now for the next campaign, another cheese army :rolleyes: THAT, is not just my opinion. Two other players said just about those words. Neither knew about the others statement.

I guess he thinks he HAS to win to prove his manhood or whatever.

anarchistica
19-04-2005, 00:47
I guess he thinks he HAS to win to prove his manhood or whatever.
I played against one of those once. Stereotypical (really) fat nerd and no social skills. Think 4000 points with 2 Steam Tanks, 36 Handgunners/4 Snipers, 2 Hellblasters, 2 Cannons, 4*30 Spearmen /w 2*10 FC plus some characters (Griffon Standard, Heavens mages) and...no movement the entire game, except for his Steam Tanks and one wheel to counter being flanked. Phun. :rolleyes:

daryl_ks
19-04-2005, 00:58
Something can be considered cheesy by yourself if your has no possible way to counter it effectively, and is easily and effortlessly defeated by it whenever your opponent chooses to field it. It actually exists, you just have to play enough games of Warhammer with enough people to encounter it (and it exists somewhere between the Sea of Blades and the Chaos Wastes, for me ; )


By that reasoning... and as I have never been able to effectively counter anything.... you are all beardy lumps of cheddar...

Cheers!

Daryl

Lord Lucifer
19-04-2005, 01:35
I think you're in denial over your own beardiness.

"May your beard go long and your soup bristlely"

Not necessarily, some of us just hate the term because it allows people to complain about something without giving reasons.

It's easy to say "[unit name] is cheesy and broken!", but you actually have to think about it before saying "I think, as a unit of 'shock cavalry', Chosen Chaos Knights of Khorne are more powerful than their role entails, as their mobility combined with their high number of attacks easily counteract and overcome the bonuses of other unit types, and combined with the freedom of selection the Chaos army allows this becomes unbalancing"
(not necessarily true, just made a quick pass at a specific statement)


When you don't just call something 'cheesy' or 'broken' or 'beardy' it forces you to think about exactly why it is so unfair in your eyes.

Delicious Soy
19-04-2005, 03:04
So long as you state why (beyond 'because it beat me!') then i think its acceptable to label something cheesy. Just be prepared to defend your position with something more than 'you guys are dumb!11!!!' Finally if its such a problem than propose a solution, preferably something sensible.

TheeForsakenOne
19-04-2005, 12:04
So what about Tyrions garunteed 2+invulnerable save for at least one wound, and possibly even two? Or Teclis's ability to cast that radius spell from the lore of heavens over the entire table?

Then you'll be pleased to know that they errated him so set radius spells do not have unlimited range.

My definition of cheesy is an army that is made totally contrary to the armies background just to make it more powerful.

P.S. Use healing hand when Tyrion goes down to 1 wound. He still gets to keep his 2+ ward by the letter of the rules (but it is insanely chessy and I think I can use it to classify that tactic).

daryl_ks
19-04-2005, 20:27
think[/B] about exactly why it is so unfair in your eyes.


Wholehearted agreement is offered in abundance...

here! here!


Cheers!

Daryl

Trunks
20-04-2005, 03:03
Definately!

Cries of "Cheese" and "Beardy" (I'd like to stab whoever came up with that term multiple times . . . IN THE FACE) without any thoughtful justification other than "It's too powerful" annoy me.

When you can see exactly where the person is comming from in his/her opinion, it makes "discussion" possible.

taer
20-04-2005, 03:16
I don't consider "cheese" or "beardy" to simple be something that is unbeatable, nor something that I have a hard time dealing with. In fact, some of the things I consider "cheese" are not terribly difficult to deal with, given a little reflection.

What I do consider cheesy is an army built with having as many of the most powerful, and destructive things in one army at one time, with the absolute minimum required of everything else. Regardless of how effectual this is in reality isn't the core issue with me. It's why they built the army the way they did.

For example, there was a guy with Morathi, a Beastmaster on a Manticore, two war hydras, and a smallish selection of other crap. The army itself isn't one that I think I would have particular difficulty in dealing with (I think an all spearmen army would be harder to defeat personally for my army), I do consider it "cheesy" because I know the only reason his 2000 point army was constructed in that way was purely because he wanted to smash all the most dead-killy crap in at once. This doesn't make for either a realistic battle, or evenly a remotely entertaining one, and I will not hesitate to call anyone who constructs their lists in such a way cheesy.

Crazy Harborc
21-04-2005, 23:18
I have known a couple of big time cheesey, powergamers. Any/every army they used would be WAY beyond anything close to the fluff of that army. After a couple of years, I just didn't bother to be available to host either player or go to their places to game...........I found out recently they are stuck with just each other for opponents these days.