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Conotor
28-11-2007, 01:50
I couldn't believe the swordsmaster's statline. I read it 5 times over. It diddn't change.

Make units of the sworders, 10 wide, and u can't loose. They kill cavalry charges before they are attacked, and the high elf cavalry and dragons make it almost impossible to flank them.

Hrogoff the Destructor
28-11-2007, 02:13
Lots of things can beat them. Close combat probably isn't the best way to face them. Range is probably the best, magic works assuming they don't have a hero with a squad 2+ ward against magic.

And this shouldn't be in the rumor section.

Gorbad Ironclaw
28-11-2007, 04:16
Make units of the sworders, 10 wide, and u can't loose.



Your joking, right? Tell me you are joking.

For one thing, you would rarely ever get all 10 in a single fight. And else, shoot them, magic them, hit them with chariots, knights, big monsters. Lots of ways to kill them, they just don't involve fighting infantry.

Flypaper
28-11-2007, 06:21
Answer: No.

Swordsmen are clearly unbalanced (not the same thing as overpowered), in that they're either worthless or unbeatable, depending on what you're playing against.

...In other words, they're poorly designed, but not broken. GW doesn't even do emergency revisions for the broken stuff, let alone for something they're trying to sell an entire army on the back of.

I suggest waiting a few months. By then people will've shifted (a) back to cavalry or (b) to White Lions.

Tancred II von Quenelles
28-11-2007, 06:34
yes-White Lions are better then masters-though they do noy bring so much damadge they do not flee anyway.phoenixes are2nd place while masters are on 3rd

Chiungalla
28-11-2007, 07:01
Depends largely on your opponents army.
I will bring 7 Swordmasters including a champion to every singe tourney I will visit in the future.

If I face a gunline, they will hide behind a hill or forest from enemy shooting, and if my opponent will have those 127 victory points (and that quarter of the table), he will most often need to get them in close combat.

If I face a pure close combat list, they will performe awesome, and they will suddenly become the best used 127 points on the table.

EvC
28-11-2007, 12:02
...In other words, they're poorly designed, but not broken. GW doesn't even do emergency revisions for the broken stuff, let alone for something they're trying to sell an entire army on the back of.

Well, they did for Thorek Ironbrow and his Anvil of Doom, albeit in an exceptional and quite stupid manner that has only been made quasi-official. I could imagine them doing something similar for the Empire in their own UK GT, as the winning lists have mostly been boring Tankfests, and if we wanted to play games with 4 tanks on the table, then we'd be playing 40K. But yeah, you're right, Swordmasters aren't going to be changed, they're not broken, just unbalanced.

Conotor
28-11-2007, 12:45
Your joking, right? Tell me you are joking.

For one thing, you would rarely ever get all 10 in a single fight. And else, shoot them, magic them, hit them with chariots, knights, big monsters. Lots of ways to kill them, they just don't involve fighting infantry.

Not all armies can acces enouf shooting to seriusly effect them.
Chariots could work, but not every army can get them ether.
Knights? they all die before they attack. 16 ws6 s5 attacks.
A 600 point monster and characture could likely take down 150 points of swordsmen. Isn't that special.

16 ws6 s5 attacks on knights: ~10 hits, ~8 wounds, 4 dead. Notice I rounded down twice and up 0 times. Now is your 1 knight somehow going to kill 5 swordsmen and bring the combat to a draw?

Voodoo Boyz
28-11-2007, 12:50
I look at them as a Dwarf player, and as someone considering High Elves as a small themed force.

I still see them through Dwarf tinted glasses though: "They're Elves with Heavy Armor, shoot them. Even if you don't hit, they'll likely die from the breeze created by the bullets".

Caradryan
28-11-2007, 13:07
high toughness units stall swordmasters quite well, like tree kin or even dwaves, shooting anahilates them, like previously mentioned phenixes are soild ive taken a unit with a prince through treekin a treeman and 3 odd rounds of shooting and lost 3, gotta love the 4+ ward, lions with more strength and a much better save vs shooting not to mention stubborn are also better then masters

logan054
28-11-2007, 13:22
I think certainly the best CC unit to kill them has to be the warrior chariot, with T5 and a 3+ and 4 wounds it has the staying paying incase it gets locked into and still has the niceness of strength 5 crew and strength 4 horse (even better when its Khorne!).

Sadly however this is the only route to go when facing HE with chaos which really has you using pretty standard lists, have to say however characters on larger bases with a chaos amulet seem rather nice against elves atm :)

blurred
28-11-2007, 13:26
Swordsmen are clearly unbalanced (not the same thing as overpowered), in that they're either worthless or unbeatable, depending on what you're playing against.


Exactly. They are win-big-lose-big unit and thus poorly designed. If tournaments are going to be dominated by HE players, people will shift to chariot hordes and gunlines. Good job GW. :rolleyes:

EvC
28-11-2007, 13:29
Sadly however this is the only route to go when facing HE with chaos which really has you using pretty standard lists, have to say however characters on larger bases with a chaos amulet seem rather nice against elves atm :)

You could always take the Hellcannon or a couple of Dogs of War Cannons. Soot for the Soot God ;)

Iziz
28-11-2007, 16:07
I faced my brother's high elves with my lizardmen. My slann magiced the crap out of them from the start and caused severe casualties. They charged through a "Wall of Fire" and only 4 made it to combat. The slann was with 16 saurus. Only 4 saurus were left at the end, and the only reason I won...rear charge with 14 skinks.

Swordmasters are the bane of just about any foe. In that battle he also took 20 Phoenix Guard, who fought it out with 20 saurus after being blowpiped a few times and eventually lost.

The battle was a massive victory on my part because I found that the best way to beat swordmasters is to ignore them. I concentrated on the rest of the army and despite the swordmasters ripping one unit's face, the rest of the army died. Ignore swordmasters and kill the rest of the elves.

King Thurgun
28-11-2007, 22:53
Not all armies can acces enouf shooting to seriusly effect them.
Chariots could work, but not every army can get them ether.
Knights? they all die before they attack. 16 ws6 s5 attacks.
A 600 point monster and characture could likely take down 150 points of swordsmen. Isn't that special.

16 ws6 s5 attacks on knights: ~10 hits, ~8 wounds, 4 dead. Notice I rounded down twice and up 0 times. Now is your 1 knight somehow going to kill 5 swordsmen and bring the combat to a draw?

But all armies have access to one or the other. Find me an army that doesn't have access to chariots OR missile fire OR heavy magic and i'll buy you a titan.

And yes, I checked before I said that.

The point is, in a balanced army you should have something to deal with an ultra killer unit like that, especially if they're easy-to-kill infantry. They look scary on paper but so do a lot of things. They'll always take you in a straight up fight, to be sure: so don't get in a straight up fight.

WargamesEmpire
28-11-2007, 23:26
It's also not too difficult to tie that unit of Swordmasters up. With a movement of 5 they're not going to be making any mad dashes across the tabletop. Simply march blocking them can seriously hinder their potential.

Crappy armour save, low toughness, slow movement and mediocre leadership. They're not that hard to outsmart.

marv335
28-11-2007, 23:36
But all armies have access to one or the other. Find me an army that doesn't have access to chariots OR missile fire OR heavy magic and i'll buy you a titan.

And yes, I checked before I said that.

The point is, in a balanced army you should have something to deal with an ultra killer unit like that, especially if they're easy-to-kill infantry. They look scary on paper but so do a lot of things. They'll always take you in a straight up fight, to be sure: so don't get in a straight up fight.

you know, that's just what I was going to post.
every army has something that can maul the swordmasters.
mine so far have been spectacularly uninspiring.
white lions are a far better choice.

logan054
29-11-2007, 00:38
You could always take the Hellcannon or a couple of Dogs of War Cannons. Soot for the Soot God ;)

Hellcannon, dont you dare mention that SoC rubbish to me again! DoW, dont even go down that, i cant see from a fluff prospective how a much of guys who just wants to kill people in the name of Khorne are gona go about hiring some cannons

"So you wanna hire some cannons het mr"
"erm, yes, that would be wonderfull, lets hire 10"

erm no, more like the cannon crew would just end up sliced a diced ;) I think your just upset they kill your SM :P

mistformsquirrel
29-11-2007, 01:11
Tzeentch on the other hand has no compunctions against hiring mercenaries.

<. .> LOAD ZE CANNONS! *plugs ears* O>.<O *FIAH!*

Kirth
29-11-2007, 01:19
I suggest waiting a few months. By then people will've shifted (a) back to cavalry or (b) to White Lions.

I am already going with the White Lions. Sure not as devastating in CC, but at least they will get there with help from their Lion Cloaks. And str 6 is solid.

I can see Dragon Princes being the way to go for competitive lists. I like the idea of a White Lion themed armythough, so I'm going that direction.

theunwantedbeing
29-11-2007, 01:23
Killing swordsmasters in combat is silly with most units.....
Poor tactics isnt an excuse to get something changed.

Makaber
29-11-2007, 01:54
Even if you have to tackle swordmasters in close combat:

The elven army is small. Sure you can claim there will be stuff protecting the flanks, but point of the matter is, you will have the numerical superiority with pretty much everything. If you manage to flank a swordmaster unit (which, really, shouldn't be that hard), you'll only suffer 2 to 4 attacks before you get to strike yourself, and you'll probably win combat by quite a lot as a result. If you, by charging the flank, suffers enough hits to threaten the attacking unit, then the swordmaster unit is so unreasonably deep, it's cost is silly-high and your opponent shot himself in the foot.

So no, I'm not to concerned.

And chariots/shooting will absolutely maul them.

Highborn
29-11-2007, 03:14
Not all armies can acces enouf shooting to seriusly effect them.
Chariots could work, but not every army can get them ether.
Knights? they all die before they attack. 16 ws6 s5 attacks.
A 600 point monster and characture could likely take down 150 points of swordsmen. Isn't that special.

16 ws6 s5 attacks on knights: ~10 hits, ~8 wounds, 4 dead. Notice I rounded down twice and up 0 times. Now is your 1 knight somehow going to kill 5 swordsmen and bring the combat to a draw?

I notice you're using T3 knights with a 2+ save. Cold One Knights? They have to be, because there's no other race that fields T3 knights with 2+ saves.

Your arguments against shooting and chariots is flawed. True, not every army can access enough shooting to reduce the effectiveness of swordmasters, and not every army can access chariots. Unfortunately for you, every army that cannot access shooting can take chariots, and there are many armies that can take both. The only (sort of) exception are Vampire Counts, who can just pin you in place with spirit hosts, or run a vampire with Black Knights in to waste you.

Shank
29-11-2007, 03:50
White Wolves, Empire T3 2+save. Pretty much all of Bretonnian Knights, same thing. Dragon Princes, Silver Helms with shields. Just to clarify, not just Cold Ones. Sorry to interrupt.

Highborn
29-11-2007, 06:17
My mistake, I didn't consider the option for Knightly Orders to take great weapons.

Bretonnian Knights have lance formation, so they'd be hitting back with more than 1 knight against an 8-wide formation of Swordmasters. Not only that, but an 8-wide formation of Swordmasters would only be able to muster 10 attacks against a lance of Bretonnians, not 16.

Dragon Princes are higher Initiative than Swordmasters, with Always Strikes First. Silverhelms are the same initiative, and so would dice off. Safe to say, the example given doesn't apply to either.

So, let me clarify:

Cold One Knights and Empire Knights with Great Weapons are the only T3 knights with 2+ saves that would find themselves in the situation described.

Sparowl
29-11-2007, 07:06
But all armies have access to one or the other. Find me an army that doesn't have access to chariots OR missile fire OR heavy magic and i'll buy you a titan.

Bretonnians?

No Chariots, almost no shooting (and it tends to be poor when they do have it), and tend to have better magic defense then offense. The only exception I see to this would be a list kitted out with a lvl 4, two lvl 2s, all rolling beasts to get Hunter's Spear and Crow's feast. With some yeomen to try and score wounds.

Do I win a titan? :p

Hrogoff the Destructor
29-11-2007, 07:38
Their archers are dirt cheap. Yeah they may not hit easily, but they wound easily. I'd take a large squad of crappy skirmishing archers and shoot them up.

Veshnakar
29-11-2007, 07:40
Come now folks. Just go pop over to http://www.ulthuan.net/viewforum.php?f=4 and look how tiny the armies are. Now take into account that these are not toughness 5 models with 3 wounds each. Even with two units of bretonnian peasent archers you could whittle enough away at the swordmasters to cause significant damage. As for white lions, just lance them. 5+ armor save and the blessing should be enough to save you as you will probably have a champion and the lancers on the side.

The two armies that are going to have the most trouble with the new high elves are tomb kings dark elves, and even with those armies it's not going to be an uphill battle as dark elves have mass shooting, chariots, RBTs, and tomb kings have catapults, chariot units with kings/princes, and skeleton archers.

I sometimes think there are people in these forums that couldn't general their way out of a wet paper bag if it was to save their life. Just relax, I promise it's not bad. For real, look at some of the new armies people are coming up with in the link I provided. It's like like we are seeing 10 units of 20 swordmasters and white lions and 3 star dragons.

n0gArd
29-11-2007, 13:21
Silverhelms are the same initiative, and so would dice off.

Swordmasters uses a GW, silverhelms will attack first. not to mention all the spells which gives "attack first" will attack first against GW. fx: orcs&goblin + VC have "always strike first" spells dunno if more have.

Finnigan2004
29-11-2007, 13:35
So, let me clarify:

Cold One Knights and Empire Knights with Great Weapons are the only T3 knights with 2+ saves that would find themselves in the situation described.


Allow me to further clarify-- since the rules for the cavalry hammer have been changed, the only unit likely to find itself in this situation is cold one knights. Seriously, when was the last time anyone fought white wolves? There is a reason that you forgot about them.

sainthale1988
29-11-2007, 14:00
what happens when a giant ogre shaggoth with mark of slannesh (always strike first) and a great weapon fights swordsmasters? i assume that whoever charged goes first, then inititative order? and if there the same inititative (cant remember) its the side who won the perivious combat go first?

Marneus Calgar
29-11-2007, 14:57
I believe that you look at the persons inititative if they both have "Always strikes first"(even if you charged). If both units have the same initiative, then you roll a dice to see who goes first.

Xyon
29-11-2007, 15:50
Not all armies can acces enouf shooting to seriusly effect them.
Chariots could work, but not every army can get them ether.
Knights? they all die before they attack. 16 ws6 s5 attacks.


Generally armies without shooting have either magic or chariots to compensate, and armies without chariots have shooting and magic. Many armies also have war machines. Armies without many of these things are: VC, and thats all that I can think of, but they have cheap units that can bog down the sword masters, or summon them in the rear, either way, they're able to hold them with cheap stuff and then flank with a vamp or something hitty, or even a black coach if they bring it on that rare occation. Everone else has sufficient shooting war machines magic and chariots or a combo of any of them to make swordmasters into a fine mist before combat.

EvC
29-11-2007, 15:59
what happens when a giant ogre shaggoth with mark of slannesh (always strike first) and a great weapon fights swordsmasters? i assume that whoever charged goes first, then inititative order? and if there the same inititative (cant remember) its the side who won the perivious combat go first?

The Swordmasters go first, charging makes no difference where ASF is concerned. Both units have ASF (equal), both units have an always strike last weapon (equal), so then you go to Initiative: Swordmasters first. And then if they were even, it'd be who won last turn, and failing that, roll a dice.

Duck Dodgers
29-11-2007, 16:13
16 ws6 s5 attacks on knights: ~10 hits, ~8 wounds, 4 dead. Notice I rounded down twice and up 0 times. Now is your 1 knight somehow going to kill 5 swordsmen and bring the combat to a draw?

Of course, Chaos Knights with a 1+ armor save, and 2 attacks, would fair somewhat better... Add a character, and unless you challenge, that usually 2 guaranteed models attacking back (champion and character)... Yeah, and then your 5+ armor saves on the SM mean a lot of deaths per hit...

Empire knights in great armor would be similar.

Oh, and I can speak from the recieving end... 12 Dark Elfs with repeater crossbows... well, I didn't get close enough to charge...

Sir Charles
29-11-2007, 19:09
Their archers are dirt cheap. Yeah they may not hit easily, but they wound easily. I'd take a large squad of crappy skirmishing archers and shoot them up.

Or you could just charge them, 4+ armour save and 5+ ward should let them survive reasonably well, plus the smaller fron bringing fewer models into contact.

Luisjoey
29-11-2007, 19:15
Great swords sounds like MORTARS AND CANNONS TO ME :D

Highborn
30-11-2007, 01:51
Armies without many of these things are: VC, and thats all that I can think of, but they have cheap units that can bog down the sword masters, or summon them in the rear, either way, they're able to hold them with cheap stuff and then flank with a vamp or something hitty, or even a black coach if they bring it on that rare occation.


Your answer starts with "Spirit" and ends in "Host". As a high-magic army, VC should be able to cope with the High Elf magic phase well enough, especially given the defensive nature of High Magic. Nothing else in the High Elf army can hurt these bad boys, and with low HE unit sizes it won't be long before the Host can outnumber the swordmasters and auto-break through fear and outnumber.

Conotor
30-11-2007, 02:01
Most comments seam to say that
a) Shoot them or charriot them.
b) white lions are better
c) Ignore them and let them slauter you.

Responce:
a) I can only take 2 steggs, which can be avoided by the elves if they deploy the swordies last, as they can take more charriots for long depying. I realy hate making a simple shooting line.

b) Wow. They have more imba units. Lovely. This fixes all my problems.

c) 2 X 10 swords, a unit of lions, and a charriot... Hows that for special? You can't ignore 2 unstoppable units.

Crazy Harborc
30-11-2007, 02:10
Last night a 20 body unit of Sword Masters was defeated by shooting followed by HtH followed by more shooting. The point I am after........Shoot the heck out of the Sword Masters. Shoot the heck out of the Dragon Princes too. Spend as many rounds as possible casting magic missles and shooting at those HE HtH units....soften them up.

It worked Wednesday night.

vorac
30-11-2007, 02:38
yeah and what happens when the SM come equipped with the banner of arcane protection, a Noble carrying the sacred Incence (-1 to hit with shooting)and some other item i can't remeber that the champion had. I played last night with DE i had 20 crossbowmen,10 shades and 2 boltthrowers and a High Sorceress and all i killed was 4 SM all game, the best i could do was cast dominion which only got through twice, or course my buddy was rolling like a god and i was rolling like a gimp :(

Crazy Harborc
30-11-2007, 03:41
Sorry for the bummer game you had. All I can suggest is tweak your list. Cold ones, more bolt throwers, got any S4 troops you can use?

Mouldsta
30-11-2007, 22:20
Most comments seam to say that
a) Shoot them or charriot them.

Responce:
a) I can only take 2 steggs, which can be avoided by the elves if they deploy the swordies last, as they can take more charriots for long depying. I realy hate making a simple shooting line.


By this I assume you have lizardmen? If so then simply take skinks with blowpipes, and make a mess of their lines.

I haven't had any problem against them with my DE - 28 warriors with rxb's, 15 dark riders with rxb and 2 RBT's makes a nice mess of them.

Seriously though, for those of you complaining about a unit of 20 SM's "they'll kill you if you flank them", with arcane protection "you can't magic them" and the noble with sacred insense "it's harder to shoot them" then just use the time honoured tradition of ignore them.
Send a cheap fast unit to march block them turn one (harpies, eagle, whatever). By turn 4 or 5 they'll finally be in range to charge something... so put something cheap (maybe even the unit that has been march blocking them) in front of them angled to pull them away from your battle lines. they'll kill that unit, be out of position and have no time left to swing back around. During all this concentrate all your shooting/magic/chariots on the rest of their army. His uber 500pt wonder unit will have probably killed 70pts at best and done diddly squat else, while the rest of the army gets shot up.

Finn Sourscowl
30-11-2007, 22:32
I look at them as a Dwarf player, and as someone considering High Elves as a small themed force.

I still see them through Dwarf tinted glasses though: "They're Elves with Heavy Armor, shoot them. Even if you don't hit, they'll likely die from the breeze created by the bullets".

This made me laugh so much I sigged it :D And sums up, how, as a dwarf player, I plan on dealing with them. I'll be facing them next week, with my mostly HtH dwarf army... I guess I'll find out what all the fuss is about :)

Shank
01-12-2007, 02:42
Allow me to further clarify-- since the rules for the cavalry hammer have been changed, the only unit likely to find itself in this situation is cold one knights. Seriously, when was the last time anyone fought white wolves? There is a reason that you forgot about them.

Excellent point. I brought my White Wolves out the other day because the models look so cool and mid way through the game I was wondering what the heck I was thinking!

Flypaper
01-12-2007, 04:10
By this I assume you have lizardmen? If so then simply take skinks with blowpipes, and make a mess of their lines.Blowies aren't at their most efficient against elves (a skink's favoured target is an ogre - high toughness, low armour and not the other way around). They're still worth their points in a shooting match, of course, but it doesn't help that the optimum way to kill a Skink is via Magic Missiles - and High Elves aren't exactly known for their magical incompetence.

The optimum elf-killer is, of course, the Salamander. Move and fire, move and fire... :evilgrin:

...Unfortunately, aside from your own magic phase Salamanders are the only optimum elf-killers in the list. And people look at you funny if you show up with six of 'em. :(

(and you get to argue over whether Dragon Armour protects against them or not!)

Finnigan2004
01-12-2007, 04:50
Excellent point. I brought my White Wolves out the other day because the models look so cool and mid way through the game I was wondering what the heck I was thinking!

Love the models and feel your pain a little. I have some partially complete empire forces from just before the revision. I made the knights as knights of the White Wolf. Needless to say, I too wonder what I was thinking.

Bolter Bait
02-12-2007, 05:35
Even if you don't hit, they'll likely die from the breeze created by the bullets".Shhhh, stop pointing out our terrible terrible secret weakness. When we're not distracted reminiscing about the good old days 8000+ years ago or cursing the dwarves for stealing the Phoenix Crown (it's a *******' sweet hat - taller than a dwarf and side wings like you wouldn't believe), we're busy chasing around our hankies when the back-draft from missed bullets blows them away. Fun fact -- Elves don't actually suffer casualties from shooting; it's just that there is no better way to represent when we run away chasing objects caught in an updraft like silly ninnys except through removing models as "casualties". *coughs*

Anyway to the original post, swordmaster are not broken. Lets see, 5" move and 2 Str 5 attacks before you can do anything. Damn, that's f-ing awesome... if you allow them to make it to combat. Toughness 3 and a 5+ save = elementally weak against ranged attacks. Organ guns, cannons of every variety, Woodie super-bows, hellblasters, scraplaunchers, fast calvary with bows, dragon's breath, RBTS, face-melting MAGIC, jezzials, salamanders, warp lightning, etc. etc. What army doesn't have at least one viable option of dealing with swordmasters that doesn't involve letting them engage you with their above-average melee skills? They can't strike first against a good cannon-ball or magic missile.

Or, if for some reason people are too stubborn to alter their normal PWNasaurus-rex list because some new elf ability messed up their precious metagame, try bogging them down with cheap blocks of anvil-material, preferably of the variety disinclined to run away, and flank them with something, anything really.

Most HElf commanders, unless they're of the breed that enjoy spending 75-150+ points to get +1 or 2 static CR with models that cannot attack until the previous two ranks are dead, are only going to field SW units as shocktroops consisting of at most, 10 models. Flank them with your own super unit and they can be attacked by 2 models if they're in 5x2 formation. They'll then have no rank CR bonus and you'll be outnumbering them by a good bit. Chew through them sideways and they should be no problem.

And if the HElf commander has invested enough points into the unit to make them magic resistant and harder to hit with shooting, where the hell is the rest of his army and why aren't you killing that tiny thing? Elves are expensive and to get a 10-SW block with the protection I've mentioned will set the HE player back 302 pts. And that's if they didn't invest in a Blademaster, musician, or gear beyond Sacred Incense for the noble that is attached to them.

Akuma
02-12-2007, 10:02
Or, if for some reason people are too stubborn to alter their normal PWNasaurus-rex list because some new elf ability messed up their precious metagame, try bogging them down with cheap blocks of anvil-material, preferably of the variety disinclined to run away, and flank them with something, anything really.

Amen to that

Grimgormx
02-12-2007, 19:36
I play with O&G and I like to use the same list for 5 or 6 games, this way you get to do a balanced army list that work fine against all armies, but then the new HE book pop up....

Yes I can defeat them, destroy them and oblitterate them easily, but only with an army list tailored to fight them, thats exactly the point were the new book and especially the ASF rule is unbalanced,

To win against an HE army I should fight like stuntie or like a hummie, but Im an orc, Im used to take a lot of casualties in the magic and shooting phase, but I was always going to get even in the HTH combat Phase, not with HE anymore.

I think that HE players just had bad tactics, shoot and wait, they alwas lose because they never charged, even when they had better movement value, if they wanted to strike firs all they had to do was charge!!!

Now they use worst tactics and they got rewarded for it, they just had to wait, and receive charges.

Well I will have to paint all those orc archers I have, and all those night gobos archers from the battle of the skull pass, just to use an un orchis army against those HE.... Good work GW I just hope that in 7 years I will get a cheesy book like this for my orcs.

Hrogoff the Destructor
02-12-2007, 22:01
I think that HE players just had bad tactics, shoot and wait, they alwas lose because they never charged, even when they had better movement value, if they wanted to strike firs all they had to do was charge!!!

Now they use worst tactics and they got rewarded for it, they just had to wait, and receive charges.


I don't think that's what it was. Did you ever take a look at the old HE book? The infantry was laughable.

I can promise you that every HE player did their best to make sure they got the charge. If they didn't they their squads would lose CC outright.

I personally hate the strike first rule, and its not like we encouraged GW to give it to us. I'm sure that there are many other HE players that would have liked to see a fix apart from that.

Sigmar
02-12-2007, 22:12
"High elves: are they gonna be changed again?"

I don't think so, not for about 5 years at least !

I got round the problem by trading in some old rare figures (on eBay) and getting myself a high elf army :)

I like them... a lot.

Although the High Elf Hero in my Battle Royale Skirmishes isn't doing too well (but I am using Warhammer High Elf Armies version 6 for him because I started it a while back !)

(check out the videos on my blog if you haven't got a clue what I'm talking about)

freelancer
02-12-2007, 22:39
Its easy to beat Sword Masters and so on in close combat, 20 man Empire swordsmen regiment with f/c and 2 detachments of halis, maby even a warrior preist or captian in the parent unit. Using supporting charge you get a combat res of 5 already (standerd, 3ranks and both flanks) fight not by killing every regimant to the last man, fight the Empire way and make the buggers leggit.

and a cannon would help or a Helstorm

freelancer

n0gArd
02-12-2007, 22:50
are we talking 10 swordsmasters vs 20 empire swordmen + a warrior priest + 2 detahcment? cause if we talk 20 swordmasters there will be: 23attacks which will make out approx 13wounds. + banner, 14 combat res. and allowing almost no1 to hit back. :S

Just Tony
02-12-2007, 23:35
First off, what idiot would take a 10 wide unit of ANYTHING that didn't shoot? If you're not ranking up and sacrificing all that rank bonus because you don't want to waste points on something not getting into combat, what about the 4 or so guys not getting there in this ridiculously unwieldy formation?

No, Swordmasters are no different than that unit of Chosen with a Chaos lord in it. Feed it a steady diet of scouts/flyers, and get to the rest of his army. Chess teaches you strategic sacrifice. For some odd reason, that bit of strategy just doesn't seem to make it into Warhammer.

Oh, and I've put this off long enough...

What the hell does PWN mean?

Hrogoff the Destructor
02-12-2007, 23:54
What the hell does PWN mean?

It's a nerdy way of saying "own". When someone or something gets "owned" in a fight, it means just what you think it means.

Just Tony
02-12-2007, 23:59
lol I know "owned" I just thought maybe that was an abbreviation. I need to relearn Nerdish. Being in the military this long has sort of unbalanced that part of me...

chivalrous
03-12-2007, 00:22
Ahh Lifetaker, people told me I was crazy for taking you, that you wouldn't make your points back, that you were significantly inferior to all other weapon options.
Who's laughing now *snicker*:evilgrin:

Highborn
03-12-2007, 03:22
Chess teaches you strategic sacrifice. For some odd reason, that bit of strategy just doesn't seem to make it into Warhammer.


Strategy? In Warhammer? Surely you jest - here I was planning on settling for the moral victory by complaining that swordmasters were broken.

Just Tony
03-12-2007, 03:35
Strategy? In Warhammer? Surely you jest - here I was planning on settling for the moral victory by complaining that swordmasters were broken.

I know, anymore I expect that the winner is dictated by the most Special and Rare choices brought to battle, which is obviously why the High Elves are now unbeatable. At first I thought it was using your army to outmaneuver and turn flanks. Silly me and my lofty expectations....

Petey
03-12-2007, 22:30
Chariots (any variety) > elves
what armies don t have chariots have guns and bows
enough said

ZAChos
03-12-2007, 22:38
Being a painter rather than a gamer I venture onto the rules boards very rarely. When I see people complaining because swordMASTERS are good with swords it tells me why that is.

Dominatrix
03-12-2007, 22:43
When I see people complaining because swordMASTERS are good with swords it tells me why that is.

So by your logic if I make a unit named "Immortals" they should not be able to die. Or deathGAZERS so that everything in their line of sight dies with no saves. :rolleyes: Seriously this is the lamest excuse I have read about why a unit should be good at something.

ZAChos
03-12-2007, 22:48
If swordmasters were unbeatable you would have a point. Someone is complaining that an elite style army has an elite close combat unit which is really good in close combat. Slightly different to the two rule changes you suggested.

Forgive my lack of knowledge, but what are death gazers? They sound almost as wacky as blood crushers.

Dominatrix
04-12-2007, 09:51
Immortals and Deathgazers are two names I made up. :evilgrin: The point I was trying to make with them is that you can't justify a unit's abilities based on their names alone. In your previous post you implied that swordmasters should be good with swords just because their name says so.

Back to topic I don't believe swordmasters are unbeatable. I do believe however that they are ridiculously effective versus certain units to the point of being overpowered against them, while they are very vulnerable versus certain other units.

But that is just my opinion of the game. I hate rules that make it rock/ paper/ scissors.

Grimgormx
04-12-2007, 10:50
Its not the elite status of the SM or the HE, is just that they are to cheap in points

Try this fight any day

a sword master Vs a Black orc with shield, or a chaos warrior with 2 hand weapons (elf 15 points, Black orc 15 points, chaos warrior 16 points )

My money is in the elf, and he just had to wait for a fight to como for him.

n0gArd
04-12-2007, 18:07
that is the worst **** i've ever heard!!

Let me indsted ask you this: Take a unit of 10 thunderes place them 24" away from a unit of 10blackorcs/chaos warriors/swordmasters. Which unit do you think will have the highest chance of making it to the thunders?.

Yes Swordmasters wins in melee combat D'OH!! thats where they r strong. But they have no armour save and no thoughness making them so *********** vulnable to shooting/magic. fx: thunders wound them on 3+ and the SM will have no armour save versus that.

What you are saying is simply ********. They hit hard but they also die hard.
"The best defense is a good offense".

Bolter Bait
04-12-2007, 18:36
Its not the elite status of the SM or the HE, is just that they are to cheap in points

Try this fight any day

a sword master Vs a Black orc with shield, or a chaos warrior with 2 hand weapons (elf 15 points, Black orc 15 points, chaos warrior 16 points )
I cannot comment on the Chaos Warrior because I don't have an AB handy for them, but I can comment on the Black Orc. A BO is 15 points because it has higher S+T than most human-sized models, can select a weapon combination that is perfect for any fight and it also has rules that buff other orc units nearby. Swordmasters have a single choice a weapon and cannot buff nearby units though passive abilities. Quit comparing prices/effectiveness by only looking at the single facet of a unit.


My money is in the elf, and he just had to wait for a fight to como for him.Then why oblige the SW by walking up to them? Where are your rock lobbers/spear chukkas/doom divers/arrer boyz and why aren't they shooting the SW for the 2+ turns they have to walk to you? Is this an empty field between BO and SW or has the HE player used tactics to silence every single ranged unit you posses and thus already won the game by taking away your options?

AUN'SHI
04-12-2007, 22:08
Ok the sword bastards oops masters are one tough ass unit... But they are 15 pts of get ready to eat all my shooting. t3 heavy armour not gonna last to long imo.

The only (and I mean only) army that's gonna have a problem with them is the beastmen.

They are a block unit they will get shot easy way to deal with them... if not the only way to deal with them.

I'm a DE player and I generaly have a combo fo both shootying and CC units. I'm sure a majority of armies are also gonna have a mix as well. But it depends on your play style.

In the end yes thet are CRAZYNESS!!!!!!!!! hell they can kill chaos knights even if charged (kinda dumb if u ask me but meh) but they can be shot the heck up.

Hrogoff the Destructor
04-12-2007, 22:43
The only (and I mean only) army that's gonna have a problem with them is the beastmen.



I doubt that. They got chariots, and many kinds of ogres. Chariots will make quick work of swordies, not to mention dragon ogres (love them to death... that's why my Hordes list uses them!).

Petey
04-12-2007, 23:25
Actually Dom, the Immortals were an elite persian unit for antiquity. Also, they are an elite unit of orcs that grimgor rolls with

Dominatrix
04-12-2007, 23:55
Yes I know I have seen 300! :D And the black orcs that make up Grimgor unit is called "Da Immurtalz"! :p Immortals as well as Deathgazers :skull: are names I came up with that might confer an ingame ability to demonstrate my point better about something I wanted to point out to ZAChos!

marv335
05-12-2007, 01:10
nevertheless I can't think of any army that cannot take care of swordmasters easily.
seriously, are there any armies that don't have access to either shooting or chariots?
maybe Vampire Counts? although they could use a black coach or a banshee.
almost every time I've used swordmasters they've sucked anyway.
they have a habit of running away from giants, or only ever rolling 1s and 2s to hit :wtf:

Highborn
05-12-2007, 03:21
My money is in the elf, and he just had to wait for a fight to como for him.

That's the point everyone's trying to make; the Swordmasters can't wait for the fight to come to them. You shoot at the Black Orc and Chaos Warrior with a handgun, they are wounded on 4+ and still have a save. The Swordmaster is wounded on 3+ with no save.

Marv - Vampire Counts have vampires and spirit hosts. Swordmasters will rarely have more than a single rank and standard, maybe two ranks. 3 combat res can be generated easily through outnumber and a few kills from the vampire. Lahmian would be my choice against High Elves, for the ability to strike first. Blood Dragon is a nice second pick to challenge their champion and lay into him for some massive overkill while staying safe with armour. The cost of swordmasters certainly justifies the use of a vampire on them, and once the vampire's there, combat will be won and the elves will be autobreaking from fear.