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Alpharius
15-09-2005, 18:21
Just looking for a little help here...

At most, give or take, a Chapter can put 1000 Marines into the field.

Now, they'd rarely do this, as it would be committing the entire strength of the Chapter in one place....

How are we to believe that 1000 marines can invade/take over/conquer, well, just about anything on a planetary scale?

Even if each marine is worth 10 guardsmen...

Now, *maybe* back pre-Heresy when chapters were Legions...

Maybe. But now?

Or, does GW carefully avoid doing this with Marines now? Are they used only in support or with the Guard in the "official" (GW codex) background?

Black Library regularly has Marines takin' names on a whole planet by themselves, but, well, that's Black Library...

Just curious what most of the "official" background says, as I certainly am not an expert on it.

Thanks!

Sojourner
15-09-2005, 18:32
The marines could cripple even a well-developed planet in a shock assault but couldn't consolidate once the native forces started to mobilise. It depends what the attack is meant to achieve. Conquest is the role of the guard - for a populace with any degree of resolve, marines on their own would struggle to do anything useful when terrorising people doesn't work.

A large planetary conquest will generally involve several chapters or chapter contingents and a very large force of guard - most likely one or more Army Groups and at the very least an entire field Army.

Rykion
15-09-2005, 18:35
You're supposed to assume that the Imperial Guard does most of the fighting, and that Space Marines only handle the really important things. Even at that, 1,000 troops would generally be woefully inadequate to defend or attack against a major enemy. You basically have to except the "rule of cool" and not bring logic into the fluff.

Sojourner
15-09-2005, 18:37
The sort of work you'd see marines doing would be storming government compounds, blowing up power stations, dams, ports and airfields, and occasionally massacring an advancing enemy force if they're getting too hot for the guard to handle.

Minister
15-09-2005, 18:41
One major point: a large number of the Imperium's planets have populations in the low millions or thousands, not billions. In this case, a few hundred crack troops with orbital superiority could easily overthrow the government and establish temporary control. Anything longer term is in the hand of the Adeptus Administratum via the Departmento Munitorium and/or Adeptus Arbites.

Rykion
15-09-2005, 18:57
The sort of work you'd see marines doing would be storming government compounds, blowing up power stations, dams, ports and airfields, and occasionally massacring an advancing enemy force if they're getting too hot for the guard to handle.

That is the most logical use of marines, but seldom set up in the fluff. Marines are always in major battles, and the art often shows the equivalent of several full chapters in battle. Marine equipment is also not right for most quick strike scenarios. Special forces are light infantry that operate from quick insertion vehicles that carry small numbers of troops. The marines would need airspeeder transport and attack vehicles over the slow rhinos and predators. Thunderhawks are OK to transport troops from ship to planet, but are too large to be flying around warzones. The loss of a single fully loaded Thunderhawk would be a very bad day for a marine unit.

Sojourner
15-09-2005, 19:49
The implication is that they use drop pods a lot more than described. Add to this the fact that they have orbital flight to ferry vehicles in anywhere they're needed and you reduce any land transit times to being viable as an attack strategy.

Talkie Toaster
15-09-2005, 20:41
It's back to the whole "Does the game reflect the fluff, or vica versa" argument. Marines probably do more surgical strikes and similar than they appear to in-game, just because the game rules aren't really set up for that kind of thing.

Minister
15-09-2005, 23:26
Yes, all-in all a chapter at full strength can muster 1,500 when the supporting staff (pilots, crews, the Chapter Command and so-on) are taken in to account, however very few marine chapters will maintain full strength.

Reguardless, it is still not enough to take and hold a Civilised World (note capitalisation) by means of a head-on assault.

psyco1234
15-09-2005, 23:53
i dont know 10,000 men armed the same way as 10 guardsmen each...that is quite a bit...and once you collapse the corrupt government, all you need to do is take its place and set up some more expendable troops(arbites or guardsmen) to do the street patroling/guarding of outposts, and get the imperial mission in to scare the people to faith. The marines are only really there to collapse the government and any major heretical opperations...they are lucky enough to have the fun and not have to clean up after themselves

starlight
16-09-2005, 00:05
The Third War for Arm is likely the best example of full scale planetary assault.

Minister
16-09-2005, 00:07
10,000? That's an order of magnitude above and beyond standard...

And the point is that the Marines do not posess Arbitrators or Guard units as a part of their formation. The point in question is whether a chapter could, as and of itself, take a Civilised World, which I would think it might under favourable circumstances without entrenched widespread opposition from the population, and hold it, which it has no hope of doing.

They can, of course, virus bomb. But that smacks of spoiled brat mentality, and looses the objective for all time.

starlight
16-09-2005, 00:39
It would depend on the planet.

Could they take Terra or Mars? Unlikely in the extreme.

Could they take a moderately populated world without unified planetary defences or only possessing (roughly) our level of technology? Quite likely.

Sir_Turalyon
16-09-2005, 06:37
They can deveastate industry of civilised, PDF-protected world, effectively sending it to stone age, in surgical strikes. One such assault wasdescribed in 3rd edition SM codex.

They cannot hold a world, obviously, as it's not what they are meant for.

Alco Engineer
16-09-2005, 06:48
Let's be honest. Marines are just Glory boys who like to spread their propaganda to scare potential upriser and make themselves look cool. 1000 men is not very much at all and if they had to face a Nid swarm I imagine they'd get gobbled up without Imp Guard backup.

Sojourner
16-09-2005, 09:16
To achieve full combat strength I reckon a chapter would need an official leave of absence from duty for at least two decades to train new recruits and restock the armouries. Whether this would actually be useful is debateable, as in that time, all the veterans have been away from combat and will be starting to lose their 'edge'.

Kage2020
16-09-2005, 21:14
That is the most logical use of marines, but seldom set up in the fluff. Marines are always in major battles, and the art often shows the equivalent of several full chapters in battle.
<grin> They say that a picture paints a thousand words (or something like that). Yet we must consider that many words have numerous meanings depending on context, as well as synonyms (etc.) to confuse the situation. So in a way the artwork might say a thousand words but in some ways it also tells many thousands of lies!

I use the Space Marines as I feel they are meant to be used and, indeed, it is very similar to Sojourner's post. What about the 'fluff' and art that supports the huge battles with Marines single-handedly fighting off the entire galaxy (or whatever)? 'Rule of Cool', 'Imagery' and 'Thematic Army' spring to mind. As such I would personally tend to ignore it while trying to keep to the 'spirit' of the universe.

That's just me, though.

Kage

Suicide Messiah
16-09-2005, 23:16
I reckon a chapter would b able to take a civilised world. Sure theres only 1000 of them (plus crazy surfs and stuff) but they are vastly superior in every other way. Remember even the average marine has been in more battles and fought off terrors that the armies of sum random ass planet can even imagine.

One thing i dont understand is that when people talk about space marines they really play down their abilites, i mean space marines are the stuff of pure fantasy, true heroes in a galaxy of villians and sinners. They are on average 7ft tall incased in armour a few inches thick. Has anyone ever seen a man that big? Imagine how imposing and seemingly invincible he would appear. also an army of space marines would function a lot better than any army of normal men. Since at the end of the day they are all brothers who exist to fight. Plus there is the psychological factor of being attacked by space marines, if the 'warriors from the stars' or whatnot attack you then your an enemy of the god emperor himself.

As you can probably tell i really buy into the whole imagery of space marines, mainly because i dont play the game, and so dont care if a lasgun or two can take one out if i roll the right number. As for the rule of cool, i really cant grasp why people seem so against it, i mean this is a fantasy/sci-fi universe after all.

Kage2020
17-09-2005, 00:19
A good point about the 'Rule of Cool'. It is often used in a negative fashion since, well, it manifests itself in so many 'ugly' little things. Swords that you wouldn't be able to pick up (well, without a lot of strain) let alone use, steel swords being used against tanks... that sort of thing. It certainly is 'cool' and 'heroic' but it doesn't mean that you have to buy into it for everything. Having Marines 'strong' enough to punch through the ceramite, for example.

Saying that it's sci-fi/fantasy doesn't mean that you have to approach every fantasy with "folly", surely?

As to a 1,000 Marines taking a civilised world? As always for 40k, surely that depends on the world in question and a plethora of situational questions. Does the world have significant orbital defences? If not then it's pretty much a question of not being able to resist the ortillery (o(rbital a)rtillery). What about military technology? Is it on par with the Imperium in general? If not, again its a pretty foregone conclusion: conquistadors, etc.

Rule of Cool is, well, cool. It creates a nice story if that's what you want. Me? I prefer a bit more grit and less 'wizards 'n' flying castles'. Is that not the important point, though? It is what you wish to do with the universe... ?

The psychological impact of the Marines is, for me, unquestionable.

Kage

Outlaw289
17-09-2005, 04:38
A Chapter can most definetly take anything up to a civilised world, and with a little help from the Imperial Navy, even take on a Hive World.

For the most part, Marine Chapters are elite, self-contained, heavy infantry, who fight with fervency and free will (Marines are volunteers, not serfs or conscripts sometimes found in the Imperial Guard).

As they are a superbly equipped, trained, and disciplined force, they can take on many foes exponentially larger than their size. History vindicates this.Battles where heavily armed and well disciplined infantry, fighting voluntarily, have taken on far larger forces. Poitiers, Thermopalye, Tenochtilan, Salamis, Guagamela, and the Pacific Campaign of WW2 show that when well trained/disciplined/equipped heavy infantry forces go into battle against larger forces of lower quality or less disciplined troops, the heavy infantry are usually the victors, and failing that, achieve spectacularly high kill to death ratios and cause a distinc tactical victory even from battlefield defeat.

Minister
17-09-2005, 09:22
Marines are hardly what I would call volentiers most of the time...

Yes, a marine can beat a PDF trooper. Ten marines can probably beat two hundred PDF if they are spread out holding a defensive line. But can they beat two thousand troops entrenched in a reenforced town backed up by another thousand volentier militia troops with full anti-air defences andwithin the fire arc of the primary planetary defence batteries, with full warning of the oncoming attack? No. Not a snowball's chance in hell.

Attack a Hive World? A full chapter fleet and a navy Battlegrop could dash itself against the orbitals and system defences without getting a single drop pod to the surface. And that's without concidering the hives' own PD lasers and silos.

Even if they could, how will they defeat a population of ten billion or more, where about 5% use weapons in some capacity as part of their empoyment (you do realise how many hive gang militias were mustered for Hellsreach, yes?) Every hive is a fortress. Whilst they may be opened by stealthy infiltration or internal insurection to a landing force, it is still all but impossible to take and hold even the key facilities of a single hive (water processing, power, key manufacturies, communications, government and so-on) with a thousand men.

Sojourner
17-09-2005, 09:34
They'd manage to land pretty much anywhere; a battle barge could probably slag any defensive arrangement short of a Star Fort in a matter of hours from well beyond its range.

Marines don't fight fair. They are a thousand. Even today on this puny planet, they'd probably be outnumbered (at a guess) by five thousand to one. They can't and won't try to defeat a planetary army in a fair fight. They can totally cripple it in preparation for a full-scale guard assault, but they can't go up and start shooting at each other and expect to win.

Wiseman
17-09-2005, 12:06
<grin> They say that a picture paints a thousand words (or something like that). Yet we must consider that many words have numerous meanings depending on context, as well as synonyms (etc.) to confuse the situation. So in a way the artwork might say a thousand words but in some ways it also tells many thousands of lies!
Kage

youve been wanting to say that for a long time havent you kage! :rolleyes: :p

Suicide Messiah
17-09-2005, 13:22
A good point about the 'Rule of Cool'. It is often used in a negative fashion since, well, it manifests itself in so many 'ugly' little things. Swords that you wouldn't be able to pick up (well, without a lot of strain) let alone use, steel swords being used against tanks... that sort of thing. It certainly is 'cool' and 'heroic' but it doesn't mean that you have to buy into it for everything. Having Marines 'strong' enough to punch through the ceramite, for example.

I hear what your saying, and its true that GW often goes over the top when describing the power of things (especially space marines). Of course theres the 'its all myth and legend' approach but i know many people dont like that way of looking at it.

Swords are a very good example, as they 'realistically' have no place in 40k. However its this blend of fantasy and sci fi, coupled with the visonary art of people like john blanche that makes 40k more interesting (visually at least) than the many other sci fi universes, where soldiers look like pimped out SAS soldiers. I mean whats the coolest thing in starwars? stromtrooper that cant hit the broad side of a barn? droids? or is it the sith lords and the jedi who wear robes and fight with swords made of light?

Outlaw289
17-09-2005, 16:03
Marines are hardly what I would call volentiers most of the time...

Yes, a marine can beat a PDF trooper. Ten marines can probably beat two hundred PDF if they are spread out holding a defensive line. But can they beat two thousand troops entrenched in a reenforced town backed up by another thousand volentier militia troops with full anti-air defences andwithin the fire arc of the primary planetary defence batteries, with full warning of the oncoming attack? No. Not a snowball's chance in hell.

Attack a Hive World? A full chapter fleet and a navy Battlegrop could dash itself against the orbitals and system defences without getting a single drop pod to the surface. And that's without concidering the hives' own PD lasers and silos.

Even if they could, how will they defeat a population of ten billion or more, where about 5% use weapons in some capacity as part of their empoyment (you do realise how many hive gang militias were mustered for Hellsreach, yes?) Every hive is a fortress. Whilst they may be opened by stealthy infiltration or internal insurection to a landing force, it is still all but impossible to take and hold even the key facilities of a single hive (water processing, power, key manufacturies, communications, government and so-on) with a thousand men.


On the same side of that coin, I could have a planet defended by a million men with rocks, and that will do me no good if I was attacked by a tank. The Marines are the tank to the defender's rock.

A town entrenched by two thousand troopers in a defensive position would likely be the easiest target to take, far from the hardest. Those troops need supplies from exterior sources or carefully maintained machinery from within their defensive position to maintain the logistics it takes to support over two thousand men. Marines can land Assault troops in the center of the town, or use an orbital bombardment, land bombardment, infiltration, or an all out assault. Marines are the greatest troops in the Imperium for a reason: They're damn near invincible. Thinking logically about a battle (instead of letting a dice roll determine if power armor can be penetrated by a grot blasta), Marines would be invulnerable to lasgun, autogun, stubber, and possibly hellgun fire, thus negating about half of the firepower of the defending force.

Marines come in fast, utuilizing all their assests such as assault troops, land speeders, drop podded dreadnoughts, etc. Marines come in hard, hitting with their personal firepower (19.083mm caseless bolters to be exact, which can, thinking realistically, easily put gaping holes in any kind of AV10 vehicle with ease, even mind pillboxes and such), their tanks, and their devastators. Marines utilize shock warfare, designed to utterly overpower each enemy in a short, utterly brutal conflict, attacking so tenaciously and in so many positions no defender, save a unit of their level of discipline and level of equipment, can stand a chance against them.

The kind of scenario you described sounds like the battle of Tenochtitlan. Castillians, which an edge in armor, discipline, and firepower, after suffering a bitter defeat, went back to a city with only a few hundred men, outnumbered by a ratio of over 250:1, and completely decimated every defender in a harsh showing of complete, heartless, high firepower shock warfare. The Marines in 40k could very well do the same, perhaps even tenfold considering all the options they have at their disposal.

About your other example:Ten Marines could surely beat a hundred PDF. I would bet good money Marines could beat 500 PDF, either on the offense or defense. The advantages they have over PDF and Imperial Guardsmen are exponentially superior, and consequently, so would be the casualty ratio.

Deadnight
17-09-2005, 17:09
i trust the words of a Primarch.

Give me 100 space marines, or failing that, 1000 other troops....

I dislike marine fluff. Its over the top to me. Marines rock, and the statements made so far, are true in theri competence. But what GW never mentions is SM logistics. How many battles ar eportrayed in the fluff where 10 marines stand, pouring out rounds for 3 hours straight, killing everything, and yet never even have to reload. i think ragnar blackmane ran out of ammunition once in the 4 SW books. can i have the limitless ammo cheat, too? SMs can not conquer a world for this very reason. logistics.

beyond that, any SM fluff i have read seems to follow the mantra of "thine enemies shalt be made out of cardboard, and shall stand stock still, and do nothing as you carve through 20 of them at once with a chainsword..."

i dislike this, being perfectly honest. and it happens all too often.

But, while they can't conquer a world, or probably not even a fortress city on their own, they could probably find their way inside it, seek the generator room, set thermal charges and detonate them, disabling, or seriously denting the enemies ability to resist. and then pull out.
they could probably hit the command centre, and decimate the high command, paralysing the rest of the army.

and these are the things marines should be seen to be doing. but BL books prefer to stick a marine in the middle of a 50km melee, or some other grand battle.

*shrugs* suspend disbelief....

!mpact
18-09-2005, 05:55
whats this with disregarding the other staff of a chapter?
"all together a chapter would field a total of about 1500 men" someone wrote...thats utter ******** (pardon the french).
the marines in a chapter is followed (at any time) by "mere mortals" at a ratio of 1 marine / 10- 15 humans.
It has been described (IIRC in codex SM 3rd ed) that of these humans a third are serfs and the rest are part of the fughting organisation as gunners, pilots, battlebarge staff and so on.

This plus the stuff Outlaw289 wrote above gives reasons for the smurfs to be able to beat entire planets.
Whenever there is more rigid defense/opposition they call in the guard and titan legions (or in rare occations- another chater).
This is usually because of external meddling (by tyranid, eldars or other xenosm OR by chaos or renegade Guardsmen under renegade ruling) that has supperior firepower to the planets original inhabitants.(2nd armageddon anyone?- a systemwar but still)

Also, concider this:
A room with one person in it is a waste of grenade, whilst a room crammed with 30-40 ppl will be a fabulous use of the grenade.

Hence- an agri-planet is an easy target for smurfs, a hiveplanet is...a sitting duck as long as they get passed the orbital defense (if any).
Just crash some buildings and clean up in the rubble.

Outlaw289
18-09-2005, 06:07
I'd have to agree with !mpact, and I'm surprised I had not raised the point earlier.

Marines travel in large fleets, complete with natural resource stores, arms factories, AdMech engineers, psykers, etc. They have all the tools for the job and then some, all nestled in the comfortable safety of a Marine battlefleet.

A chapter may have only a thousand power or terminator armoured Marines, but then come the dreadnought crews, and IIRC, the Codex Astartes has a loophole with vehicle crews. I forget where I read this, but a Predator with a, lets say, three man crew, would only count as one Marine towards the Chapter's 1000 Marine alotment.

Not to mention scouts and serfs/subjects, like !mpact said. A chapter may have an unlimited amount of scouts (IIRC they are not limited by Imperial Mandate, only a chapter's abiity to produce scouts). Scouts are superb medium infantry, and can suplement a Marine assault and occupy ground that has been captured by Marine shock warfare. Additionaly, Serfs, the combat ones of whom I imagine are comparable to Guardsmen or Imperial Stormtroopers, are an absolute asset. These serfs are most likely great in number, competently trained, and, as they are part of the Space Marine Chapter, receive effective equipment, perhaps they have Hellguns as standard armament, maybe even bolters, plus heavy weaponry they would doubtlessly utilize.

I do agree with the Marine detractors though, with a Marine cleaving through 1,000 other foes effortlessly. While they CAN do it, considering their skill and survivability (just read the fluff bible article on a Marine's survivability: WOW!), it goes against good tactics and is often just an author's excuse for drama. Realistically, a Space Marine unit would perform like in Dawn of War, with hevaily armed squads closing in with the enemy to destroy him with overwhelming firepower and shock tactics.

Sojourner
18-09-2005, 08:51
Ugh. No. NO.

Marines on their own cannot 'take' a planet. To do that requires millions of troops. Look at Iraq now. All in all the deployment there is about 150,000, and it's not a very big country, and not a very big garrison. The US is capable of doing much the same as the space marines would on the regional scale - total military dominance and ability to blow up anything and everything from well outside their range. Is this intimidating to the Iraqis? Not to all of them. There are enough rebellious elements that you couldn't consider it 'under control'. Now do this with a planet. Do you think a mere thousand, or even fifteen thousand as has been suggested, could even make a mark?

Suicide Messiah
18-09-2005, 09:33
Iraq is a pretty poor example. First of all U.S troops arent 7ft tall, warrior monks incased in power armour, whose sole purpose in life is to fight and die for the emperor. Then you have to take into account all the laws and restrictions the U.S troops have on them, they cant just go round killing people. Marines on the other hand could (if the threat was big enough and the planets population expendable, or possible tainted) pretty much cleanse the whole planet.

mesmile
18-09-2005, 12:33
I think the fluff is far from coherent. Letīs take a look at a few well-known facts:

1. A chapter is a thousand marines strong, including scouts (excluding support staff).

2. A chapter is a very strong force, even in this huge universe with population of untold billions.

3. The marines equipment. They are heavily armoured to be able to take alot of fire, and they have tanks with long range firepower (to combat enemy tanks?). Basicly they seem to operate as a powered up guard army.

Now, I can easily fit together two of either these facts. But all three? No way.

IMO no 2. with 3. is the kewlest, but that "forces" the chapters to be far bigger then a puny 1000 men. I think they should be alteast 10 000, possible up to a 100 000 brother marines, PLUS atleast as many scouts.

//JH

Deadnight
18-09-2005, 12:38
A chapter may have only a thousand power or terminator armoured Marines, but then come the dreadnought crews, and IIRC, the Codex Astartes has a loophole with vehicle crews. I forget where I read this, but a Predator with a, lets say, three man crew, would only count as one Marine towards the Chapter's 1000 Marine alotment.
.


dreadnoughts are rare. it would shock me if the average company had half a dozen of them, at the most.

3rd ed SM codex:
Vet Co: 3 Dreads
2nd Co: 2 Dreads
3rd Co: 2 Dreads
4th Co: 4 Dreads (this company at full combat strength)
5th Co:1 Dread
6th Co: 4 Dreads
7th Co: 3 Dreads
8th Co: 5 Dreads
9th Co: 7 Dreads
10th Co: None

Predators - the enitre ultramarine chapter has 14 destructors, 11 annihalators, 8 vindicators, 9 whirlwinds. rhinos, and razorbacks are more numerous. Oh, and 32 thunderhawks. not a hell of a lot, and incapable of anything short of a minor engagement. individual companies might have extra vehicles (1st co has 7 land raiders)

Note too, most of the SM company's are depleted. most are between 75% - 90% strength.



Not to mention scouts and serfs/subjects, like !mpact said. A chapter may have an unlimited amount of scouts (IIRC they are not limited by Imperial Mandate, only a chapter's abiity to produce scouts). Scouts are superb medium infantry, and can suplement a Marine assault and occupy ground that has been captured by Marine shock warfare. Additionaly, Serfs, the combat ones of whom I imagine are comparable to Guardsmen or Imperial Stormtroopers, are an absolute asset. These serfs are most likely great in number, competently trained, and, as they are part of the Space Marine Chapter, receive effective equipment, perhaps they have Hellguns as standard armament, maybe even bolters, plus heavy weaponry they would doubtlessly utilize.

.

unlimited scouts? garbage. 3rd ed SM codex. Ultramarines had 87 scouts. and this number is a 54% survival of scouts. and most of these die during implantations and gene therapy. So, 160 odd at the start. most die during training, some in battle. hardly unlimited.

Serfs? again, the same source as above states the ultramarines have 206 non space marine support and administrative staff. there's your serfs. ^.^




I do agree with the Marine detractors though, with a Marine cleaving through 1,000 other foes effortlessly. While they CAN do it, considering their skill and survivability (just read the fluff bible article on a Marine's survivability: WOW!), it goes against good tactics and is often just an author's excuse for drama. Realistically, a Space Marine unit would perform like in Dawn of War, with hevaily armed squads closing in with the enemy to destroy him with overwhelming firepower and shock tactics.

this i agree with. the "rule of cool".


Just for description, the 3rd erd SM codex gives 3 examples of SM strike forces, and i'll write up one, just for the purpose of this thread:

Joran VI retaliation force:

armoury: 4 annihalators, 6 destructors, 6 razorbacks, 3 land raiders, 4 vindicators, 3 whirlwinds, 5 rhinos, 5 techmarines, 18 servitors.
4 librarians (of various ranks - some trainees)
1 apothacary, and 10 staff
2 strike cruisers, 12 thunderhawks
1st Co:10 terminators, 2 land raiders,
3rd Co: captain, chaplain, apothecary, standard bearer, 1 vet.sergeant 35 tac. marines, 20 devestators, 8 assault marines, 2 dreads, 6 rhinos, 6 land speeders, 10 bikes, 2 attack bikes, 20 scouts

Protection force to Explorator Fleet Delpha
armoury: 2 techmarines, 6 servitos
1 librarian
1 apothecary and 5 staff
3 thunderhawks
1st Co: 10 vets, one rhino
4th Co: captain, chaplain, apothecary, 2 veteran sargeants, 30 tac marines, 20 assault marines, 6 rhinos, 5 scouts

Counter Incursion - Gerio sector
Armoury: 2 annihalators, vindicato, razorback, 2 techmarines, 4 servitors
librarian
apothecary + 3 staff
1 strike cruiser, 3 thunderhawks
1st Co: 5 terminators
6th Co: Captain, Apothecary, standard bearer, 2 vet. sergeants, 15 tac marines, 1 Dreadnought, 1 rhino, 2 land speeders, 5 bikes, 1 attack bike,
8th Co: 10 assault marines
9th Co: 5 devestators
10th Co: 5 scouts

Brother Othorio
18-09-2005, 13:07
Serfs? Serfs are lobotomised machine-men. Only useful to a techmarine at the best of times as additional gun platforms.


erm, no.. thats Servitors, Serfs are regular human servants who are owned by the chapter

Suicide Messiah
18-09-2005, 13:54
I was just wondering, how often are space marines actually depicted as fighting as a whole chapter? Since i cant recall anything saying 'and then the space wolves all went and kicked ass' since the heresy, i dont even think that whole chapters were at Armageddon were they?

Now i may be wrong but i dont think i have ever heard of marines having to take on an entire planet by themselves. Sure theres bits of fluff that say they landed on the base of the ruling body and butcherd everyone, but never them doing that and then having to subdue the peasents outside. Also we must remember why chapters only consist of a thousand of the emperors finest, because last time they could take over planets with a week or two someone thought he was greater than the emperor himself.

Outlaw289
18-09-2005, 17:03
Ugh. No. NO.

Marines on their own cannot 'take' a planet. To do that requires millions of troops. Look at Iraq now. All in all the deployment there is about 150,000, and it's not a very big country, and not a very big garrison. The US is capable of doing much the same as the space marines would on the regional scale - total military dominance and ability to blow up anything and everything from well outside their range. Is this intimidating to the Iraqis? Not to all of them. There are enough rebellious elements that you couldn't consider it 'under control'. Now do this with a planet. Do you think a mere thousand, or even fifteen thousand as has been suggested, could even make a mark?

well thats not a fair example :p

The US troops and their Coalition allies are not fighting shock warfare. They are not bulldozing entire city blocks, bombarding the whole countryside, and advancing in a line of pur destruction.

If the US wanted to fight shock warfare (different from the "shock and awe" campaign), they would do it by destroying everybuilding with airpower, then go in and kill every man, woman, and child with tanks and infantry. This obviously isn't the case, so to compare sci-fi Heavy Infantry fighting wth bona fide shock tactics against US troops fighting a media war against insurgents is a bit off.

Kage2020
18-09-2005, 20:30
A Chapter can most definetly take anything up to a civilised world, and with a little help from the Imperial Navy, even take on a Hive World.
Again, I would strongly suggest that it entirely depends on the ability of that world to defend itself from ortillery and nullify the 'high ground', as it were. If it is merely a case of defending against ground attack then they're not going to be as effective as they could be against massed troops.

Remember that a part of the Imagery of Marines comes down to the fact that worlds do not develop 'Marine killing' technology. The 'logic' of this ties in with the circular set-up of the 40k universe, i.e. you can just start waxing lyrical (read: waffling) about STC, etc.


For the most part, Marine Chapters are elite, self-contained, heavy infantry, who fight with fervency and free will...
Indeed they are! It's part of what is cool about their imagery. But does that really change what might be considered as plausible limitations to the gamut of Imagery that is applied against them to make them uncontroverted 'planet-takers in their stride'?


Battles where heavily armed and well disciplined infantry, fighting voluntarily, have taken on far larger forces. Poitiers, Thermopalye, Tenochtilan, Salamis, Guagamela...
And many of those have a number of features that go in some way to explaining how this occurred. Local topography, defences, relative technological differences, etc. Gumption goes a hell of a long way, but despite Star Wars arrows shouldn't be piercing the main sections of (technologically) advanced combat armour.


Yes, a marine can beat a PDF trooper. Ten marines can probably beat two hundred PDF if they are spread out holding a defensive line.
<grin> What you mean you would attack Bruce Lee (or Jackie Chan or Tony Jaa or whomever) on an unequal footing rather than going toe-to-toe, one-on-one? You coward, you. How dare you stand up in the, erm, Emperor's armies... Erm...


They'd manage to land pretty much anywhere; a battle barge could probably slag any defensive arrangement short of a Star Fort in a matter of hours from well beyond its range.
So what's the point of a 'star fort', then? To look big and impressive and defend you against everything but the things that you need to be defended against?

With that said, I do agree with the fact that where possible the Imperium keeps the 'best' military technologies.


They can't and won't try to defeat a planetary army in a fair fight.
Although it helps if we were not permitted to use RPGs, claymores, tanks, etc.


youve been wanting to say that for a long time havent you kage!
Well, yes. I've said it before as well. Just think that we need reminding that the artwork, and Image in general, should not be considered the complete and unadulterated truth.


Of course theres the 'its all myth and legend' approach but i know many people dont like that way of looking at it.
Yet it operates as a necessary counter to the kind of fantastical - lengendary, if you will - approach to the Marines. I remain firmly of the opinion that Marines are one of the 'coolest' part of the 40k universe, but that doesn't mean that I don't temper their activities beyond the 'Rule of Cool' 'fluff' that has them doing some rather (for me) daft things.

More so for the Primarchs than anything else, but that's another story.


Swords are a very good example, as they 'realistically' have no place in 40k.
No, they don't. Well, kinda... On a purely psychological basis if one goes with the 'limited arms' approach of the 40k universe having an 8' armoured monstrosity to cut your fireteam-mate in half with a claymore (which they wield with the ease that you wield a dagger) does have an impact. That is where I use swords beyond an entrenched duelling culture of the Imperial (etc.) armed forces.

A Guardsman wielding a sword against an armoured trooper? Don't make me laugh.


However its this blend of fantasy and sci fi, coupled with the visonary art of people like john blanche that makes 40k more interesting (visually at least) than the many other sci fi universes, where soldiers look like pimped out SAS soldiers.
Hey, I admit that the Marines are cool. I just tend not to buy into the Image in preclusion to everything else including what I consider to be my 'common sense'.


I mean whats the coolest thing in starwars? stromtrooper that cant hit the broad side of a barn? droids? or is it the sith lords and the jedi who wear robes and fight with swords made of light?
While the Jedi are, indeed, cool you would be perhaps unsurprised to note that it is not because they fight with 'light swords' that does it for me.


On the same side of that coin, I could have a planet defended by a million men with rocks, and that will do me no good if I was attacked by a tank. The Marines are the tank to the defender's rock.
This is where we get into problems of the rule of 'Wargame Balance', though. Technological superiority is definitely not something that plays an important part of the 40k universe and this tends to feedback into the 'fluff'.


Thinking logically about a battle (instead of letting a dice roll determine if power armor can be penetrated by a grot blasta), Marines would be invulnerable to lasgun, autogun, stubber, and possibly hellgun fire, thus negating about half of the firepower of the defending force.
Oh, I agree entirely with that (other than the hellgun). But then again troops and worlds are also incapable of going, "Hell, we need some Marine killing equipment. Better get hold of it." Again, 'Wargame Balance' has nothing necessarily to do with logic.


...easily put gaping holes in any kind of AV10 vehicle with ease, even mind pillboxes and such...
If you are to believe that (crappy) Inquisitor system they can darned well punch through most of those tanks. :rolleyes:


About your other example:Ten Marines could surely beat a hundred PDF. I would bet good money Marines could beat 500 PDF, either on the offense or defense. The advantages they have over PDF and Imperial Guardsmen are exponentially superior, and consequently, so would be the casualty ratio.
It's easy to do that with a generic situation, surely? For example, in perfect situations the so-called 'perfect' fortress of Storm of Iron is incredibly easy to crack. Superiority of the Primarchs? Don't make me laugh. That only works in the context of the 40k universe and not where you can bring modern military science and the future technology of 40k to buy. Narrative suspension of disbelief, in other words.

i trust the words of a Primarch.
<grin> I don't. Perturbo was a pansy if his fortresses have anything to do with it.


But what GW never mentions is SM logistics.
Yes, but logistics are not 'cool'. Therein lies the realm of realism!


*shrugs* suspend disbelief....
Hallelujah! :D


Marines travel in large fleets, complete with natural resource stores, arms factories, AdMech engineers, psykers, etc. They have all the tools for the job and then some, all nestled in the comfortable safety of a Marine battlefleet.
Do they? That's not consistent with some of the novels with companies travelling around in single ships, etc. Of course you can say that you don't believe the novels, but then again I don't believe the wargame books. <grin>


Iraq is a pretty poor example.
Yet it does illustrate one of the primary manifestations of disparity between Marines and the majority of troops that they are going up against: the technological advantage that they have.


First of all U.S troops arent 7ft tall...
8' if you are to believe Jes Goodwin and, well, I'm honest enough to admit that my bias includes accepting his artwork over many others!

Too long already... Enough for now.

Kage

Outlaw289
19-09-2005, 02:05
Keep in mind I'm goin' by the fluff bible here, and I don't have the new SM codex (I play Imperial Guard, which Im now regretting)

Oh, and the Marine vs. PDF and the bruce lee example. It was a typo. I meant a single marine could probably kill a hundred, not just one. :p ;)

Adept
19-09-2005, 03:13
1 - Marines strength lies almost entirely in their hit-and-fade abilities, which are tied to teleporters and thunderhawks. Marines are far, far too expensive to waste in any kind of attritional engagement. Where they excel is drop-podding directly onto objectives, neutralizing them and then extracting within minutes, before the enemy has a chance to respond.

2 - A single chapter of Marines dooes not have the numbers required to take and hold an enemy held planet. They may be able force a rebellion into submission, but take an average world held by only one million traitor guard? Not a chance. You'd have a single Marine outnumbered one thousand to one trying to take, hold and patrol an area the size of Texas. Preposterous.

3 - Marines, while immune to most small arms fire and enjoying great protection against other, more powerful weapons fire (like Tau rifles and Hellguns) they do not enjoy so much protection against heavy, squad based weapons and light anti-armour weapons. Autocannons, Heavy bolters, Missile Launchers, Lascannons, (real) Sniper Rifles, etc, will all give the Marines a very, very bad day. Put this way - threee squads of marines (thirty men) drop onto an enemy ammo dump. Unfortunately for them, their intel was wrong and they get bogged down. Four hundred PDF (or equivalent) soldiers are in the area, and they converge on the Marines. All thirty Marines are killed, taking two hundred or more PDF troopers with them.

The Marines chapter loses 3 percent of it's total fighting force, untold thousands of credits worth of equipment, and many many years worth of training per Marine. The PDF loses 0.004 percent (assuming a total of five million PDF) of it's force, a few hundred credits worth of equipment and less than one years training per soldier. In a worst case scenario, the Marines can lose bad.

Putting Marines into an offensive or defensive line is a worst case scenario. The Marines lose their advantages of surprise and mobility, and face a prepared enemy with powerful enough weapons to hurt them. Marines are so few in numbers and so costly and time consuming to train that every single casualty hurts them. Putting them into a pitched battle ensures they will take casualties. Battles aren't the place for marines.

All told, I'd rather rely on Imperial Guard Stormtroopers for my spec-ops needs. They come from a more readily renewed source, and are completely beholden to the IG chain of command, unlike Marines.

Khaine's Messenger
19-09-2005, 05:29
How are we to believe that 1000 marines can invade/take over/conquer, well, just about anything on a planetary scale?

A more interesting question would be how much effort the Imperium would have to make to conquer any world, nevermind restricting oneself to Space Marines as your armed forces of choice. This raises interesting logistical concerns for, say, the Macharian conquests, the Sabbat Worlds Crusade, or, heaven help us, the Damocles Gulf Crusade....


Even if each marine is worth 10 guardsmen...

Dorn's statement is that one marine is worth ten of any other troop. If he's fool enough to make the statement, then I'll show up with my 10k strong Battle Cadre or Swordwind force and sew the man's mouth shut before shoving it on a spike as a message to anyone who puts on such airs...and given how much trouble the mighty space marines had against some foes (Laer...), I don't think he should be talking.


Now, *maybe* back pre-Heresy when chapters were Legions...

Not even then. The Legions were supplemented in whole or in part by the Imperial Army, who could be called upon as vassals whenever the Primarchs or Chapter Masters or other members of the hierarchy chose...so the task of occupying the world would never have to fall to the Marines, and as such that's a tad on the cheating side. ;)

TitusAndronicus
19-09-2005, 10:05
How many American Divisions did it take to basically wipe out Iraq's forces?

Sojourner
19-09-2005, 10:14
Hard to say. We don't know how many of them just buggered off without even considering fighting.

Drasanil
19-09-2005, 15:57
Didn't one or two try to surrender before the war even started?

Skibbles
19-07-2007, 22:01
Has anyone seen the movie marines list? I think that list was designed from the fluff, and in my opinion, just a thousand of those guys can do just about whatever they damn well please.

Khaine's Messenger
19-07-2007, 22:50
Has anyone seen the movie marines list?

Yes. It's been two years since the last post in this thread, so I think the people in here have had plenty of time to track down those rules and all the threads they've engendered. :D


I think that list was designed from the fluff

No, it was designed to be funny, cinematic, and over the top. Faithfulness to the background was a side-concern. Although in the context of this thread, I suppose the Movie Marines are appropriate, since it represents Marines at their "most cool" rather than their "most realistic." I'm not saying the rules as written in Codex: Space Marines are ideal either, just pointing out that an armylist with special rules like "stunt doubles" and "the script writers hate us" probably shouldn't be taken seriously.

Skibbles
19-07-2007, 23:29
Wow, two years, my mistake.

For some reason this thread showed as just new to me, like 3rd from the top.

Rozencrantz
20-07-2007, 00:44
Ugh. No. NO.

Marines on their own cannot 'take' a planet. To do that requires millions of troops. Look at Iraq now. All in all the deployment there is about 150,000, and it's not a very big country, and not a very big garrison.

If I may politely disagree, the US military did a grand old job of 'taking' Iraq. We took it so well, we're having trouble holding it.

Same goes for SMurfs in 40k. With the firepower and technological resources available, I see no reason they couldn't 'take' a planet, if by 'take' you mean "go in guns blazing and blow everything the frack up." Take is easy.

Hold is much harder, and that's when you call in the Arbites, the Guard, etc.

And as for the ability of ten marines to kill X number of Guard, I paraphrase Musashi-

"To kill ten is as to kill one. To kill a hundred is as to kill ten. Thus, to kill a hundred is as to kill one."

-And that was from a mortal (ie, non-genetically enhanced superfreak) swordsman! The greatest ever born, of course, but still, a mortal...

Tanith Ghost
20-07-2007, 01:10
It seems people are ignoring the psychology at work when marines go in.
Forget the 'they die to AP3' thinking you use in games. Consider what the average joe in the street thinks of marines. The terror caused by the idea of being attacked by gods goes a long way toward forcing an enemy to surrender.

A company of marines could well subdue a planet of ten million or so.

Ktotwf
20-07-2007, 02:33
Three Things:

1. The whole idea of the "Rule of Cool" is just an idea people made up so that they could disregard stuff in the background they didn't like.

2. Space Marines aren't used in situations where it is like: "Hey, go take that planet for us!" They are always used in situations where: 1. An economy of force is needed: i.e. 10 Space Marines work better in a certain situation than 100 Guard, 2. Situations where ancient expertise is needed, or 3. Situation where high morale or courage is important.

3. I tend to think of "Real Space Marines" i.e. Space Marines as they exist in the background as being much, much closer to "Movie Marines" than normal Game Marines. A Space Marine is probably worth 25-50 Guardsmen, not just 2 or 3. It is the only way their place in the background makes sense.

NickWeed
20-07-2007, 02:46
The SM now are used for precision strikes at important targets. They usually only go to conquer a world when supported by guard or even other SM chapters.

MadDogMike
20-07-2007, 04:13
Iraq is a pretty poor example. First of all U.S troops arent 7ft tall, warrior monks incased in power armour, whose sole purpose in life is to fight and die for the emperor. Then you have to take into account all the laws and restrictions the U.S troops have on them, they cant just go round killing people. Marines on the other hand could (if the threat was big enough and the planets population expendable, or possible tainted) pretty much cleanse the whole planet.

This is probably a big factor actually, since when confronted with guerilla tactics the Space Marine ROE is quite often just going to be "stand off and nuke the city/burn the jungle/etc.", so there's no hiding somewhere where the Marines can't kill you if they know you're there. A highly advanced, well trained and equipped force with NO scruples about casualties, theirs or "innocents", might very well terrorize revolt out of existence, especially if people know they will happily obliterate any village that cooperates with any resistance or even stays "passive". Even if they kill off every human on the planet the Imperium may not even care; there are plenty of fluff examples like the first Armageddon war where a planetary population was completely removed and a new one shipped in. Keep all the resources the Imperium cares about and they aren't picky; human life seems remarkably cheap in 40K after all.

As for organized forces, I agree with the people who don't see them just beating down a million traitor guard or similar. A full chapter might have enough resources to decap their leadership and logistics enough to make their later defeat by IG a foregone conclusion though, which is what I consider the likely way a Marine chapter ever conquers a world solo; they cripple the enemy's leadership or resources for waging war so badly that they surrender. Keep killing your way down the line of succession for a world's rulership and I imagine sooner or later somebody begs for mercy rather than death. Minus surrender though, you need either the Imperial Guard for sufficient boots on the ground or a willingness to blow the planet up to save it pretty much. Which again Marines are probably quite willing to do unless the planet is too valuable.