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Treadhead_1st
29-11-2007, 03:34
Here's my list that lost an RBT for the "monster killer" prince for the Hero tournament at my local GW (Hero has to kill lots of big monsters to rack up army points. Its like a 2K normal game, with the odd extra monster roving around - all monsters worth double VP, and a few scenarios involving only monsters etc).

Please can you advise me where to spend the extra points in this list?


Lords

Prince:Foe Bane, Heavy Armour, Enchanted Shield, Vambraces of Defence & Talisman of Loec.
256
Heroes

Mage: Level 2, Hand Weapon, Ring of Fury & Chariot.
260

Mage:Level 2, Hand Weapon, Annulian Crystal & Silver Wand.
185

Core

10 Archers: Musician.
115

20 Spearmen: Musician & Standard Bearer.
195

19 Spearmen: Musician & Standard Bearer.
186

Special

11 White Lions: Standard Bearer & Banner of Sorcery.
227

5 Silver Helms: Shield.
115

5 Dragon Princes: Drakemaster.
170

5 Shadow Warriors.
80

5 Shadow Warriors.
80
Tiranoc Chariot.
85

1954 (46)
72 Infantry, 10 Cavalry & 2 Chariots (84 Models).


A few quick notes:

Thinking of swapping White Lions for Phoenix Guard, same configuration - theory being Phoenix hold, then the Lord jumps in for hitting power.

Not too sure how decent the foe Bane is. The point of the Lord is to kill Monsters - which the Foe Bane should do, but what about their riders? Would a Great Weapon be generally preferable - it wounds less, but hurts more?

Will play around with Magic Gear through games. Still have an OK defense despite not having a Dispel Scroll in the list!

So, what to do with the last points?

A few ideas include:

1) War Banner in 20-man Spears, and a Sentinel in each

2) Upgrading Silverhelms to Dragon Princes

3) Adding numbers to my White Lions(/Phoenix Guard)

4) Adding a Champion with Skeinsliver to my White Lions(/Phoenix Guard)


What do you recommend I should do? Any extra ideas are more than welcome, naturally.


Many thanks for the advice given so far to get me to this stage. Really appreciate it lots.

wamphyri101
29-11-2007, 12:10
Prob with foebane is it may wound on a 2+ anything over toughness 4, but still only a -1 save. I would just go for the prince with: Great weapon (12), talisman of loec (10), vambraces of defense (55) and armour of calador (25). Makes him hit hard and nails to kill for 252pts

Treadhead_1st
30-11-2007, 12:17
Still debating Foe Bane versus Great Weapon - the Great Weapon wounds less easily, but has a greater modifier to armour saves. Will go with your suggestion if I do decide to go with a Great Weapon though.

Against a T7, AS3+ Dragon, with an HE Lord packing Star Lance, does this guy really stand a chance? I think I would, if I get the charge and take the Dragon out - because then the rival Prince's weapon is useless, so I should be pretty safe from all return attacks.

Wondering whether to mount my lord, too. The advantages of being unmounted are that 1) I have 360 line of sight
2) I look less threatening - if mounted, the Lord will stand out, especially in a foot unit (where I want him, as that is where enemy are most likely to send monsters).

BUT he is quite slow, which means I might not be physically able to charge that nasty Dragon, or whatever - but then see 2), the opposing player might play to avoid the mounted Lord if I do that [suppose this is a good thing, as it keeps my Infantry safe].


Also, please could people say what they think of the list? I am just worried that without an RBT I have a weaker force - my Shadow Warriors and Cavalry can take out opposing War Machines and Mages easily enough, so that shouldn't be a problem, but its things like Knights that will be a big issue for me (and this is where a case for a Great Weapon Prince can be made - better versus other things once the Monster is dead)

Finally, in my list, would you recommend White Lions of Phoenix Guard? Lions put out more damage, so at first seem better against Knights, etc - but the Phoenix Guard are hard as nails - they won't die easily, and the Knights might fail a charge/flee from them, saving my other units. Plus the Knights could be reduced to hitting on 6s, rendering them fairly impotent.

brambleten
30-11-2007, 12:44
elves are not slow! mounting your lord would just make him a target. i take Phoenix guard becuase of their 4+ ward save and teh fact that they cause fear. i usually put the armour of caledor on my PG champion, so when i challenge he has the 2+ AS then the 4+WS, meaning he can grind down teh opponent with little chance of dying

Treadhead_1st
30-11-2007, 13:24
The issue being that without an RBt, the Lions are probably my best bet at taking out a Chariot or Monster in CC as they go first with a lot of high-strength Attacks. Deployed 6-Wide, its very unlikely that the Impact Hits will destroy the whole rank, meaning that some will still get to attack, knocking 1-2 wounds off the Chariot. More Phoenix Guard would live, but they will struggle to wound the Chariot.

Hmm, maths time: assuming against a Tiranoc chariot, 4 hits from impacts:

White Lions

3.333333333 hits against WL
3.333333333 dead (no AS).

2.666666667 attacks back,
1.777777778 hits caused (vs WS4)
1.185185185 wounds caused (vs T4)

= 1.185185185 wounds on the Chariot (no AS: modified from 5+ thanks to S6)

Phoenix Guard

3.333333333 hits against PG
1.666666667 dead (4+ Ward)

4.333333333 attacks back
2.888888889 hits (vs WS4)
1.444444444 wounds caused (vs T4)

= 1.203703704 wounds on Chariot (6+ AS: modified from 5+ thanks to S4)


Wow, it appears PG are as good - almost better - against Chariots as WL are...weird, I was expecting WL to be more potent...[note: my math may be wrong, I am not very good at it]

Do you think that makes the case for taking PG in my army?

Only other thing being that if the Lord dies before enemy monster is dead, that is where Lions are possibly more potent - but then again I thought that about chariots...

wamphyri101
30-11-2007, 16:47
PG are now a very good all round unit. With a str of 4, 4+ wardsave and fear, they can handle alot. There only downside is 1 attack each and haveing only str 4 if you come across high armoured targets.

Then again, give them a unit of 18 (3 ranks of 6) with the warbanner. Give the champion armour of calador like the guy said, means he will stay alive and can challange enermy champion/character and get away with not dieing most times.

Then i would either stick a noble (or even bsb) with them. Give that person a great weapon, heavy armour, temakador's gauntlets (30 points, 6+ save with 5+ wardsave if str 4 or more) and the talisman of light (15points, makes all your attacks and units attacks magical)

This means you get 3 str 6 attacks followed by 5 str 4 attacks, all magical, before the enermy attacks. Your unit then has a 4+ ward save and your character has a 4+ armour save and the special ward save is above str 4.

you then have 2 ranks (or 1 if your unlucky), banner, warbanner and kills. And you cause fear.

Its a pretty well round unit now for taking alot of things on. Only weakness is against magic... but you still get your wardsaves against pretty much all magic wounds, + magic defense your mages bring.

Treadhead_1st
30-11-2007, 17:41
The only thing being is whichever unit I choose will only be 6x2 or maybe 5x3 if I can jiggle points around enough.

Either way, would be a fairly small unit designed to hold up/deal with any problems the Spearmen can't handle, whilst the Spearmen take on whatever they can.

Treadhead_1st
01-12-2007, 11:41
Added a Champion to my White Lions (who may be changed for Phoenix Guard, but there is absolutely no points change, so it's going down to a matter of taste).

Also, moved Silver Wand onto the Chariot Mage, as I realised having both Annulian Crystal and Silver Wand was illegal.

Also debating Champion versus Standard in the Dragon Princes unit - its +1 Attack versus +1 Combat Res - which do you think more useful?

This leaves me with 31 points.

I can either:

1) Take the Skeinsliver or Armour of Caledor on the champion - can see benefits of both (6 remain).

2) Add a Sentinel upgrade to each Spearman unit and take an extra Archer (0 remain)

3) Add Warbanner to 20-Strong Spearman unit and take an extra Archer (0 remain)

3) Any ideas?

brambleten
01-12-2007, 12:07
dont bother with the sentinals, put armour of caledor on a champion, then drop a spear elf and take another PG/WL/SW with the remaining 15/16pts. try the list with the WL, then try ity with the PG and see which work better for you and your tactics

brambleten
01-12-2007, 12:09
or you could give the lord a longbow. you would be surprised how quickly a longbow makes its money back, especially with a BS 6 lord

Treadhead_1st
01-12-2007, 12:43
How does this look?

I couldn't fit a Champion on the (now Phoenix Guard) unit. Am also worried that opponents they face would disallow Armour Saves (plan is to send the Phoenix Guard into the enemy characters that would cause me issues) or Challenge me, and win. Am I correct in my thinking here?


Lords

Prince: Foe Bane, Dragon Armour, Enchanted Shield, Vambraces of Defence & Talisman of Loec.
259

Heroes

Mage: Level 2, Hand Weapon, Ring of Fury, Silver Wand & Chariot.
270

Mage: Level 2, Hand Weapon & Annulian Crystal.
175

Core

12 Archers.
132

20 Spearmen: Musician & Standard Bearer.
195

19 Spearmen: Musician & Standard Bearer.
186

Special

12 Phoenix Guard: Standard Bearer & Banner of Sorcery
254

5 Silver Helms: Shield & Musician.
123

5 Dragon Princes: Drakemaster.
170

5 Shadow Warriors.
80

5 Shadow Warriors.
80

1 Tiranoc Chariot.
85

1997 (3)

I could drop the Champion on the Dragon Knights, the Musician in the Silverhelms and the Silver Wand to free up 41 points to spend, if you think that would be a good idea?


I am thinking that a Champion in the Dragon Princes is a bad idea as I will be trying to take on units that have a Mage hiding in them. With a Champion, I stand a very good chance of killing the Mage if the Mage challenges. However, enemy can challenge with the Unit Champion to avoid me hitting their Mage

Therefore, would a Standard Bearer be better, as it means I have the +1 Rank bonus - as I'm hitting a ranked-up unit, the Banner is essential, no?

Or, do I run the unit "naked/Musician-Only" - so I hit the front rank, kill the Mage, then loose combat and flee (escaping the slow foot troops - Musician aids rally)? Standard is a LOT of extra points on the unit if they do catch the Dragon Princes, and I am less likely to loose after all.

Any ideas on this?