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Luisjoey
29-11-2007, 18:30
I know that elves do have strike first... this mean they strike first even if they are charged???

If i have orks and use the spell that makes them strike first too how it does resolve?

Chiungalla
29-11-2007, 18:34
The elves will strike first, because they have the higher initiative.

Maybe there are further rule detail questions if the high elves have great weapons, but I'am not sure about that.
But most other users will tell you that great weapons & allways strikes first will end up striking after all allways strikes first without great weapon.

Luisjoey
29-11-2007, 18:35
But if i charge them... they strike first too??? for example i charge with my cavalry their elf spearmen they fight me with all their lanes first!!!

Hrogoff the Destructor
29-11-2007, 18:38
When two squads with strike first meet, you resort to initative order, regardless of who charges. Elves have the higher init., so they go first against your cavalry who charged.

I think the only possible exception is a Chaos item, that says you get to roll off to see who strikes first. At least, I think it was a Chaos item.

Luisjoey
29-11-2007, 18:40
THanks friends!

If i have a normal unit and charge the elves they strike first?

Kellindel
29-11-2007, 18:43
But if i charge them... they strike first too??? for example i charge with my cavalry their elf spearmen they fight me with all their lanes first!!!

They Strike before everyone. The someone charges them and had a ASF ability then you go on who has the Higher Initiative.

If you have the same "I" then you roll off.

This is not affected by the fact that they may or may not have a Great Weapon.

GrogsnotPowwabomba
29-11-2007, 18:44
THanks friends!

If i have a normal unit and charge the elves they strike first?

All High Elves have the "Always Strikes First" rule as detailed in the main rulebook. Look it up yourself for all the details. Only the elves have this, not their mounts, monsters, etc.

Makarion
29-11-2007, 18:47
Wood Elves have the Amber Pendant, which specifies that anyone in base to base contact with the bearer strikes last, even if they would otherwise strike first.

But yes, there's not that many exceptions to ASF. So bring your ranged combat to deal with High Elf infantry and it's all good.

Note also that the ASF rule only covers frontal combat. Flank charges are a neat way around it, which means that for armies like mortal chaos, or O&G without many bolt throwers, it's crucial to bring some fast cavalry.

Chiungalla
29-11-2007, 19:52
Note also that the ASF rule only covers frontal combat.

No, it covers every combat.

Ender Shadowkin
29-11-2007, 20:24
Note also that the ASF rule only covers frontal combat. Flank charges are a neat way around it, which means that for armies like mortal chaos, or O&G without many bolt throwers, it's crucial to bring some fast cavalry.

Not true, ASF works in flanks or rear attacks as well, you may be thinking of martial prowess. you can only attack in ranks (with spears) to the front. You do usually get a frontage advantage for a flank attack as well.

To the original poster:
Don't be afraid to charge your Boar boys into most HE units, your Toughness and armor save will get youby just fine and your Strenght Charge bonus will come in handy, just watch out for Swordmaster and White Lions, your not likely to get far charging them unless you have some hero support.

Kellindel
29-11-2007, 20:40
Yeah when it comes right down to it, it's still just rules on paper. As much as Theory-Hammer makes it look broken, the great equalizer of dice always comes into play. Sometimes it makes is seem broken, other times it makes you feel sorry for the HE player as you continue to mow down his troops.

Crazy Harborc
30-11-2007, 01:41
HE toughness is stuck at T3. Bring lots of S4 or better shooting. The more S4shooting rounds before HtH with HE units the better. Spend the time to whittle down the size of as many HE units as you can. Try to bring two or more shooting units to bear on the same HE unit. If your army has mortars, stone throwers...whatever that uses a templet....blast away with them.;)

soots
30-11-2007, 02:11
If you charge his swordsmen, they attack first with about 13 S5 attacks at WS6.

Makarion
30-11-2007, 05:08
Sorry for my confusing mistake regarding the flank ASF - it was the martial prowess indeed, as expected, that had me befuddled.

Another exception (more or less) are impact hits. Since impact hits are part of the movement phase, they occur before ASF. Since they count towards combat, they can still prevent the HE front line from striking the chariot (or Ogre Bull) before the charge attacks.

Luisjoey
30-11-2007, 05:20
Thanks a lot friends!!!!

i do need a war altar!!!! very urgent!

vorac
30-11-2007, 06:04
a war altar and 3 ******* mages of fire and crossbows a plenty, do not i repeat do not engage in hth, i learned the hard way and even our best the Greatswords stand no chance what so ever, blast and keep blastin

Phoenix Blaze
30-11-2007, 13:26
When two squads with strike first meet, you resort to initative order, regardless of who charges. Elves have the higher init., so they go first against your cavalry who charged.

I think the only possible exception is a Chaos item, that says you get to roll off to see who strikes first. At least, I think it was a Chaos item.



The woodelf's Amber Pendant makes you always strike first, regardless of what the other character or troop has, even the High Elves' mighty ASF army rule.

I think there's bound to be other "always strike first regardless" items. I'd imagine dwarves have something of the sort.

Chiungalla
30-11-2007, 19:01
The amber pendant does not make yourself strike first, but your opponents models in base to base contact strike last.

It's a big difference in nearly every situation, since this allows your other units to strike before this models, too.

And yes, the amber pendant, will cancel even the ASF of high elves.

Marneus Calgar
30-11-2007, 20:14
a war altar and 3 ******* mages of fire and crossbows a plenty, do not i repeat do not engage in hth, i learned the hard way and even our best the Greatswords stand no chance what so ever, blast and keep blastin

Indeed, I hope the new High Elves like to play against gunlines! Empire troops dont stand a chance in close combat against HE troops, unless we destroy all but one rank through shooting. =)

Just Tony
30-11-2007, 20:35
I can totally see how Empire can't deal with the new Elves' special rule. Especially since you don't have detachments to deny them ranks, or 1+ save knights who will barely see one wound the whole game.:rolleyes:

How do Empire players think they have it so bad against the Elves? I mean, with a static combat res of 5, I'm sure wounds will be enough to keep them at bay. Take militia as your detachment. two attacks apiece will keep enough damage to get you wounds. And spearmen for your parent units. Oh, and don't forget the handgunners as a detachment too. So 20 spearmen get shot up before they even hit, AND get flanked. Sure they'll strike first, but it isn't THAT many wounds once it's rolled. And the wounds you cause back will be more than enough to dish it to them. And then you break them. Too easy.

Boggles my mind how people take it for granted that all attacks are gonna hit and wound automatically. Some hit better than others, sure, but there's still a roll.

I'm not really worried, though. I always take 2 20 man archer units in my HE army. I'll take the -1 to hit to shoot the gunlines from just outside their range.

Count Sinister
30-11-2007, 21:04
I think Empire probably have one of the best armies to take on the new High Elves. 2 types of Str 4 shooting (crossbows and handguns, and even Outriders and Pistoliers, come to think of it) to take out the T3 troops, Artillery (mortars are suddenly looking a lot nicer against High Elves), Hochland long rifles (to take out the mages), and detachments and sheer weight of numbers. I've just started putting together my empire army (I used to play High Elves, play Bretonnians now, and am migrating to the Empire), and I can't wait to have a crack at the High Elves. It should be great fun - bloody AND tactical!

n0gArd
30-11-2007, 21:49
dwarf > HE.

Luisjoey
01-12-2007, 02:10
Empire must rely on firepower to go against HE, Cannons, mortars (with good guessing) and well maaany Handgunners! Today i faced a terrible HE army but i decimate him with all my firepower.

wizuriel
01-12-2007, 05:35
question: I'm just getting into WHFB and only played Mordheim in the pass. Though in Mordheim the charger always has strike first in combat on the term they charged. so wouldn't any charges against HE result in just initative?

Grand Warlord
01-12-2007, 05:51
High Elves and the Always strike first rule ... dont know the exact wording but well they strike first no matter what, (Im staying away from the ASF vs ASF fights since I have never had a first hand experience with those as of yet.)

Chiungalla
01-12-2007, 07:57
question: I'm just getting into WHFB and only played Mordheim in the pass. Though in Mordheim the charger always has strike first in combat on the term they charged. so wouldn't any charges against HE result in just initative?

"Strikes first because of an attack" goes after the "ALLWAYS strikes first" special rule.


Empire must rely on firepower to go against HE, Cannons, mortars (with good guessing) and well maaany Handgunners! Today i faced a terrible HE army but i decimate him with all my firepower.

Crossbows will work much better against good high elf players.
With archers, shadowwarrior and good magic bows they will not come into range of your handgunners by them self.

Grimgormx
01-12-2007, 20:42
Well Im an O&G player, and I dont like the idea of using an unorchis army....

What should we do in tournaments?, when you can only use 1 list....

Besides

Just to try I played using HE, it was horrible, I didnt had to use any tactics, just shut the enemy with 4 Bolt trowers, use 4 mages to eliminate his ranks and then wait to be charged to eliminate my enemy army....

I didnt liked it, no challenge, my conclusion is that HE are a newies armie, and is going to be abused by players in tournaments, they always had a better Initiative, they just needed to charge to attack first, oh, I forgot HE never charge they are to shy to do that....

and now they are cheaper......

Think this.... a charge of chaos warriors with 2 weapons, against SM, SM attack first, just direct 3 attacks to the chaos captain an the other 8 to troops, you will hit 6 o 7, and wound 4 or 5, .... how many chaos warriors will counter attack? 1 maybe 2 ? which unit was more effective.... and wich one was cheaper?

Chaos warriors with aditional weapon so they have 2 attacks 17 points, same armour

HE SM 15 points and they strike first

Why should you want to charge HE? shoot them you say....

with Chaos ???? (same problem with Black orcs)

And just remember that banner that gives HE a D6 to the combat resolution....

Is easy to made a HE list that now dominates all the phase of the games.

Hrogoff the Destructor
01-12-2007, 21:23
Standard Chaos Warriors are best with shields. Two hand weapons aren't very price efficient. But even with shields, Chaos warriors will probably lose. I never really thought of them as a bargin for the points.

With Chaos, you are going to have to use your heaviest hitters, Chosen Warriors (with shields, that 2+ armor and 2 attacks a piece is very nice), Chosen Knights, or magic.

Orcs got plenty of shooting compared to Chaos. Cheap bolt throwers and my favorite, the doom diver catapult (though its better for Knights). Not to mention fanatics would tear through a SM squad so fast it's not even funny.

EvC
02-12-2007, 00:55
It's just a shame that they really are forced to use lots of shooting if they want to stand a chance. Fanatics and chariots are nice and orcy and effective, at least. Grimgormx, you took a ridiculous gunline with the High Elves, of course it wasn't fun or sporting.

knightwire
02-12-2007, 01:32
Well Im an O&G player, and I dont like the idea of using an unorchis army....


I just played a 2000 pointer against HE with OG.

The jist of my army:

Black Orc Warboss with toys including Ironback Boar
Exploding gobbo Big Boss in Chariot
Orc Shaman (lvl 2, 2 dispell scrolls)

x30 Gobbos w/Shield, CH, MU
x30 Gobbos w/Shield, CH, MU
x30 Gobbos w/Shield, CH, MU
x30 Orc Boyz w/Shield, FC
x30 Orc Boyz w/Shield, FC
x30 Orc Boyz w/Shield, FC

x2 Teams of Squig Herds
x2 Teams of Squig Herds
Gobbo Chariot
x2 Speak Chukkas with Bullies

x2 Snotling Pumpwagons
Gobbo Doom Diver

(pretty orcy army yeah?)

He went all infantry with 2 RBT, 15 WL, 15 PG, 10 SG, 10 SG, 15 SE, I think 2 mages and a Prince.


Game Summary:

I ran him over! A greasy pink wetspot on the battlefield is all that remains of the HE army. <shrug>

Moral:

Probably going to need to play more than one game to see where the new HE flesh out amongst the rest of the armies. :)

Crazy Harborc
02-12-2007, 16:40
IMHO, a big part of the attraction of WHFB is the variety of units and armies we can choose from. The rules do not limit us to ONE list, only one choice. We can customize, we can field an army or armies.

At the same time because wargaming is NOT a "one way only" game, it can take many games and many different lists to find one that works well against all/most/some opponents.

If at first you don't succeed..........Try using a different list, a different combination of units.

Every new army goes through a period of being....too strong, too weak, too this or too that. That is how it happens and has with GW's fantasy and sci-fi rules sets since GW has had rules systems.;)

chris yun
04-12-2007, 13:17
i am a high elf player and my high elves strike first always...even when they are charged

mav1971
04-12-2007, 13:41
i am a high elf player and my high elves strike first always...even when they are charged

CHEATER!!!

(just kidding)

Fhoen
04-12-2007, 15:49
And just remember that banner that gives HE a D6 to the combat resolution....




then u need a battle standard bearer and give him that banner... cus it costs like80pts
And u can even roll a 1....so it's not that uber item...

Btw i hope u played against the new high elves , cus they arn't that superb , okay they're more then good... but everyone can still win from them!

Chicago Slim
04-12-2007, 19:33
Yeah, the War Banner is great when it works, and even at its worst it does give an extra point of CR (plus one for the pole), which can be huge in the right place and time-- but it's dicey, and the guy carrying it is a little bit vulnerable (no ward save possible, and even on horse, he's maxed out at T3 with a 2+ save and 2 wounds-- which means he'll get torn up pretty quickly by a serious combat character).

That's not to say that I don't bring it a lot... just that, well, I worry about it when I do-- it's a lot of points, sunk into a fragile shell, which can only really be counted on to pull in a couple of points of CR (enough to turn a win in combat into a BIG win, but not enough to rely on it to turn a loser into a convincing winner).