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View Full Version : Why Do Some People Just Not Get The Point of Apocalypse?



Shadow-BOT
30-11-2007, 00:20
I mean, I see all of these people on forums going "AHAHA APOC, LOL 8118252015 Land RAIDERS! I WIN!"

That isn't the point of apocalypse, its a game where you get everything you own, and put it down on the board. I see all of these people building the cheese lists from hell, and it gets me thinking "Why"?

Anyways, I have to say I LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOVE Apocalypse. My DE and Chaos have fun being slaughtered and just going crazy.

Chaos and Evil
30-11-2007, 00:34
Apocalypse is about freeform gameplay, targetted squarely at 'fun'.

Some people want to play a silly-fun game, and some people want a tactical challenge. Apocalypse attempts to cater for both, but with 90% of the emphasis firmly on the former.

Personally, I think that if they want a truly balanced mass-wargame system they should try Epic, as that system is actually designed for just that environment, but hey.

azimaith
30-11-2007, 00:35
The point of apocalypse is to have fun. If having fun for both players means 800 land raiders thats their business. Perhaps your missing the point of apocalypse.

Ozendorph
30-11-2007, 00:35
Was this meant to be a rhetorical thread?

Anyway, the "point" of Apoc is subjective. If they're having fun, who's to say their interpretation is incorrect?

Ordo Ouroboros
30-11-2007, 01:05
The point of poc is simply this

Not to worry about how you play as long as it's fun

no regiment set up, no size limit nothing

Orbital
30-11-2007, 01:06
Anyway, the "point" of Apoc is subjective. If they're having fun, who's to say their interpretation is incorrect?

Imagine if we transplanted this attitude to our 40k games... especially the casual ones.

TheMav80
30-11-2007, 01:07
I think people are missing the point of 40K if they think Apocolypse is the only place they can have fun.

chaos0xomega
30-11-2007, 01:14
Errr... I understand(and have...partially) the Apocalypse mindset, but is it wrong for me if I prefer a few really huge powerful units as opposed to a horde or small weak units or an even mix of the two? Perhaps some people's prefered playstyle is to have 800 Land Raiders/Leman Russes/what-have-you. Thats fine by me, I'll take 60 Stompas, 20 Big Mek Stombas, 30 Fighta-Bommaz, and 3000 grotz(just cuz I love the little ****s...); or maybe I'll field a complete Legio Destructor Titan Legion, just because I can(assuming that I HAD that many titans).

azimaith
30-11-2007, 01:15
I think its just a matter of apocalypse using giant capital glowing letters saying: "take that rule book out of your ass"

Ordo Ouroboros
30-11-2007, 01:19
I love the "Gloden rule" of gaming

shutupSHUTUP!!!
30-11-2007, 01:29
As always it's a matter of both parties concerned having the same idea of fun. Personally I like to play Apocalypse, but without super-heavies or anything that uses the mega-sized templates, because I consider them to be somewhat mindless and boring. I generally have an eye towards efficiency and effectiveness but it's such a large game I just bung all the units I wouldn't normally use in as well.

I find there are several people with my mindset so I seek them out for games (rather than people who enjoy fielding hordes of vehicles and baneblades and playing Tankhammer who I obviously wouldn't enjoy playing against).

Ordo Ouroboros
30-11-2007, 01:34
I have no epics (save for the Nurgle Consumer, which is kinda half epic) in my army. I like the challenge?

chawklitman
30-11-2007, 01:41
My first Apoc battle was my first FAVORITE game. All the normal games with my Black Legion were really fun, but not as much as apoc.

Klomster
30-11-2007, 01:55
Apocalypse is not about making a list with 100 land speeder tornados with assult cannon that rends the ass of everything.

It's about style, take a titan legion backed up by a few companies of guard, and let 3-20 endless swarms of tyranids attack them supported by some biotitans and a whole bunch of monstrous creatures.

Then take a models eye wiew and gasp.


Normal games of 40k feels like they are all about making the best list there is.
I find this boring as i think 40k is about style and made a grey knight force with storm troopers.
The problem here is that i get punished for this when i take what is cool but my opponet only cares for effectiveness (this is not always the case but more often than not)

There are those that incorporates the models they think is cool and adds them to the efficient ones, loss in style but they are still more honorable than the ONLY EFFECTIVE UNITS!!! Lists.

When you play apocalypse you are supposed to let go of that MUST USE EFFECTIVE UNITS TO WIN.
And replace it with, yeeaah now my imp guard sergeant with a melta bomb charges that chaos warlord titan, haha, he's to puny, oh no he has a vortex grenade, aiiieeeek, haha it ate half his baneblade instead, scatter', Aieeeek my chaos lord and 3 of his terminator retinue menbers got sucked in to the vortex.
Haha, imp guard player say, now i throw the melta bomb, KABOOOOOM!!!! Triple chainreaction dubble structural damage thingie "in the name of the emperor" and the titan explode.

Everybody die, xcept private liek, he was the lone survivor in a bunker.

Sadly he died in the exterminatus that followed.


No must win, only must do crazy cool battles, that's apocalypse.

AngryAngel
30-11-2007, 04:11
I have to agree..and as has been said..some peoples fun is just in cheeseing everything out and trying to exploit given rules to the max. Apoc is so free form it won't keep that kinda mindset in check. However if people are doing that just to play the game of apoc even just to win at all costs, or spam a million landraiders..or landspeeders..or whatever. They probably aren't all too fun to play against normally I'm guessing.

Colonel_Kreitz
30-11-2007, 05:06
I actually do agree. Some people will definitely have fun with that 800 Land Raider list, but the difference is in intent. Some people will take 800 Land Raiders just for the sheer insane fun of it, warn their opponent, have fun with the game, and frequently encourage the opposition to take something equally insane. Others will spring an 800 LR list on you, play competitively, and laugh at you when you lose horrifically. Those are the people that are missing the point of Apocalypse. And they're probably also the people that would enjoy boxing matches against the physically handicapped.

WorLord
30-11-2007, 06:45
For some reason, when I see the "800 land raider" type lists the first thing I think of is strategic assets. Lots of strategic assets with no "1 each" limitation...

Hmmm...800 land raiders...difference in points is...ok, turn 1 I roll for 600 orbital bombardment strikes. The Bucket O' Dice please...:D

Everything has a way of balancing out in the end.

eek107
30-11-2007, 06:54
I figured the point of it, besides having fun and using everything you have, was to encourage people to carry that same mindset over to regular games of 40k. Y'know, make up cool scenarios on occasion, take a unit that looks cool despite the fact that it's supposedly underpowered... that kind of thing.

MrP
30-11-2007, 07:03
Beats me why anyone would field half a billion Landraiders - insufficient delineation between types for my tastes. Now scores of Russ and Chimaera variants - chosen more because I like building vehicles and not out of any particular desire to win - that's the thing. :D

Cry of the Wind
30-11-2007, 07:08
Like others are saying the point of Apoc is that you can do whatever it is that you want to do with your gaming buddies. Sure for a lot of people that means having a friendly game where winning is secondary and the stories of the epic battle are remembered more so than who was the victor. For other people that friendly game might also be a tight competetive event where all 5000pts or whatever are all created with 'powergamer' attitude and results in a truly tactical challenge with no limits.

Getting mad at someone for having a different view on what fun is in the context of an Apoc game is like getting mad that someone who likes Orks instead of your favoured Space Marines. If they are having fun who cares? Sure Apoc is a great chance to lose the limits and take the 'fun' units and things that you won't bring to a tournament but saying that is the only way to play it is no different that saying all 40k should be played tournament style.

Lunk
30-11-2007, 08:00
I'm enjoying the idea of conversion potential in apoc. I just bought an old armorcast reaver from my local indy retailer, I plan to chaos that bad boy up. I want to build at least one brass scorpion, I've wanted to build one since I saw it in an old white dwarf. So would fielding a converted chaos reaver and 2 brass scorpions be cheesy, even though I had fun not only building and modeling them, but also had fun playing them? I would fight 800 land raiders and still smile at the end of the long day.

Lunk

RexTalon
30-11-2007, 08:44
Apoc is the next last bastion of hope that people will stop playing to win and start playing for fun. Unfortunately, there are still chowderheads out there who will start keeping track of their win loss record in Apoc. See my sig for more info.

logosloki
30-11-2007, 09:30
I love the "Gloden rule" of gaming

been reading pratchett?

I got the point of apocalypse. infact If I could actually field an army it would be great fun. the whole mix and explain system is the best. You could field a apoc wordbearers with Dark apostles (chaplains) wordbearers (20 man strong IOCG units, or marines with ATSKNF) cult hordes (indroctined guard) DEMONS.

Though I'd encourage house rules such as a table of upgrades for demons and maybe the ability to take icons on guard or MOCG rather than IOCG. But thats the other thing about apoc, you could put in house rules (like how GW made the defence laser).

Plus the Apoc templates are huge. you could get extra sets (if they weren't so expensive) and have great coasters, or you could use them to anihilate your foe

Stingray_tm
30-11-2007, 09:36
I think people are missing the point of 40K if they think Apocolypse is the only place they can have fun.

Exactly. All this: "Oh, 40K with its relatively balanced rules is only for power gamers and tournament players. Now with Apocalypse we have the official licensed permission by GW to have FUN(tm). You can't have fun with tested rules, you can only have fun with untested and unbalanced rules, because it is not about the players but about what GW says is just for fun or not." nonsense is really driving me crazy.

In my club we have very balanced lists and a lot of fun (playing 40K). Victory is not that important.
On the other hand a power gamer will NOT automatically be converted into a fair player, just because the Apocalypse rules have more loopholes and more potential for cheesy lists. To think otherwise is quite naive.

The point of Apo is NOT to have fun, while in 40K you can't. The point of Apo is to sell more models.

stonehorse
30-11-2007, 10:28
The point of Apocalypse is to sell more models.

Glad I'm not the only one who has seen through the poorly hidden veil of Fun that GW are vomiting about Apocalypse.

If anyone is in any doubt about the sole purpose of Apocalypse, just look at your normal game of 40K, now imagine how many times you would need to buy that army again to be able to play Apocalypse. For those that have already built big armies for standard games of 40K (Like myself), you'll soon be coming to the conclusion that Infantry aren't worth it in Apocalypse, as their is no FOC to keep a semblance of balance in check, armies built around Heavy Support choices will come to dominate.

I speak from experience. I used my 4,000pts Tyranid army, which being built for normal games of 40K in mind (as it was pre- Apocalypse), was made up of 72 Hormagaunts, and 100 Gaunts, 22 Gargoyles, and 40 Genestealers. I had the joy of facing an Imperial Guard Tank army… which meant that roughly over half of my army was next to useless.

Most 40K armies will have been built with normal games of 40K in mind, that is to say they will be troop heavy. This is the games designer’s way of balancing the game structure. Now the FOC has gone in Apocalypse it means those with the resources to max out on Heavy Support choices can get their kicks… which means in turn those who are on the receiving end will seek out means and ways of also maxing out on their Heavy Support choices. All in all more money for GW, and a game that turns into a battle of the credit/debit cards.

silashand
30-11-2007, 10:37
Yes, but your own bug army has built in limitations. A more balanced force would probably include more warriors, a few big creatures and some things that could hurt the tanks. I don't think Apoc favors heavy support at all since infantry, particulary infantry with heavy weapons can absolutely *rule* the game vs most vehicles. Once the vehicles are taken care of, then the infantry are there to stay. And if you're using super-heavies, then there are counters to them as well. Since super-heavies are the only ones with the mega-sized templates, unless they are present you shouldn't be losing huge numbers of infantry with each shot.

Suffice to say I disagree with yoru presumption. Sure, it may be to sell more models, but I think at the sizes most Apoc battles are played, the FOC is really irrelevant anyway. Personally, I think Apocalypse is the best thing to happen to 40K in a very long time. Games are a lot more fun now IMO and a heck of a lot more interesting IYAM.

Cheers, Gary

Imperialis_Dominatus
30-11-2007, 10:44
I think its just a matter of apocalypse using giant capital glowing letters saying: "take that rule book out of your ass"

God, Azimaith, I think you've grown on me. Like to the point that you win this thread, forever. I'm still laughing.

That post is how I answer this thread.

And yeah, to sell models. But I don't give a rat's.

eek107
30-11-2007, 10:45
Glad I'm not the only one who has seen through the poorly hidden veil of Fun that GW are vomiting about Apocalypse.

If anyone is in any doubt about the sole purpose of Apocalypse, just look at your normal game of 40K, now imagine how many times you would need to buy that army again to be able to play Apocalypse. For those that have already built big armies for standard games of 40K (Like myself), you'll soon be coming to the conclusion that Infantry aren't worth it in Apocalypse, as their is no FOC to keep a semblance of balance in check, armies built around Heavy Support choices will come to dominate.

I speak from experience. I used my 4,000pts Tyranid army, which being built for normal games of 40K in mind (as it was pre- Apocalypse), was made up of 72 Hormagaunts, and 100 Gaunts, 22 Gargoyles, and 40 Genestealers. I had the joy of facing an Imperial Guard Tank army… which meant that roughly over half of my army was next to useless.

Most 40K armies will have been built with normal games of 40K in mind, that is to say they will be troop heavy. This is the games designer’s way of balancing the game structure. Now the FOC has gone in Apocalypse it means those with the resources to max out on Heavy Support choices can get their kicks… which means in turn those who are on the receiving end will seek out means and ways of also maxing out on their Heavy Support choices. All in all more money for GW, and a game that turns into a battle of the credit/debit cards.

To be fair, would that same army not struggle against an Armoured Company in regular games too? Granted they're less than common and require permission to use.
Anyway, I haven't found any probems with infantry in Apocalypse. I could quite happily field an all-tank force but from my experience in Apoc they pop far too quickly. Were it not for infantry I'd have lost on more than one occasion.

Could be it's been made to sell models, but that's their job. Every book and re-sculpt does that. But I don't care as lng as the make it fun.

silashand
30-11-2007, 10:47
Like to the point that you win this thread, forever. I'm still laughing.

Agreed. That was priceless.

Cheers, Gary

Stingray_tm
30-11-2007, 10:48
Could anyone explain to me, why you need a 50€ rulebook and maybe 200€+ of additional models in order to "have fun" instead of... well... just have fun with 40K?

I can understand if people are saying, they want big battles. (Even if IMHO Apo is just 40K with bigger and more expensive models). But what i don't get is, that people say Apo is about fun and 40K isn't.

stonehorse
30-11-2007, 10:50
Yes, but your own bug army has built in limitations. A more balanced force would probably include more warriors, a few big creatures and some things that could hurt the tanks. I don't think Apoc favors heavy support at all since infantry, particulary infantry with heavy weapons can absolutely *rule* the game vs most vehicles. Once the vehicles are taken care of, then the infantry are there to stay. And if you're using super-heavies, then there are counters to them as well. Since super-heavies are the only ones with the mega-sized templates, unless they are present you shouldn't be losing huge numbers of infantry with each shot.

Suffice to say I disagree with yoru presumption. Sure, it may be to sell more models, but I think at the sizes most Apoc battles are played, the FOC is really irrelevant anyway. Personally, I think Apocalypse is the best thing to happen to 40K in a very long time. Games are a lot more fun now IMO and a heck of a lot more interesting IYAM.

Cheers, Gary

Off the top of my head here's what I used..


Hive Tyrant, Adrenal Glands (I&WS), Toxin Sacs, Winged, Scything Talons, Scything Talons, Warp Field, 203pts

Hive Tyrant, Enhanced Senses, Extended Carapace, Adrenal Glands (I&WS), Toxin Sacs, Scything Talons, Venom Cannon. 195pts

Broodlord, Extended Carapace, Toxin Sacs. 90pts
10 Genestealers, Extended Carapace, Scything Talons. 240pts

Lictor 80pts

3 Tyranid Warriors, Adrenal Glands (I&WS), Extended Carapace, Enhanced Senses, Toxin Sacs, Rending Claws, 2 Devourers, 1 Barbed Strangler.

3 Tyranid Warriors, Adrenal Glands (I&WS), Extended Carapace, Enhanced Senses, Toxin Sacs, Rending Claws, 2 Devourers, 1 Barbed Strangler.

3 Tyranid Warriors, Adrenal Glands (I&WS), Extended Carapace, Enhanced Senses, Toxin Sacs, Rending Claws, 2 Devourers, 1 Barbed Strangler.

30 Genestealers, Extended Carapace, Scything Talons, Scuttlers.

72 Hormagaunts.

10 Ripper Swarm bases,

32 Spinegaunts

24 Devourergaunts,

3 Raveners, Scything Talons, Rending Claws.

20 Gargoyles,

Carnifex, Adrenal Glands(I&WS), Bonded Exoskeleton, Extended Carapace, Enhanced Senses, Tail Weapon Mace, 2 Twin-linked Devourers

Carnifex, Adrenal Glands(I&WS), Bonded Exoskeleton, Extended Carapace, Enhanced Senses, Tail Weapon Scythe, Spine Banks, Crushing Claws, Barbed Strangler.

Carnifex, Adrenal Glands(I&WS), Bonded Exoskeleton, Extended Carapace, Tail Weapon Scythe, Tusked, Toxin Sacs, Scything Talons, Crushing Claws.

A balanced force... which is the problem with Apocalypse, also Infantry carry few anti tank weapons, meaning that the rest of the unit are just there to take the wounds.

Khornies & milk
30-11-2007, 10:55
Of course it is to sell more models...doesn't mean we as players can't make it fun.
I play with 15 other Players, and that doesn't change 99% of the time.
We all have balanced lists and power lists, and play standard 40K games and Apoc games with those lists. When we play Apoc not one of us can build a list that others can't match or counter, so we have none of the dramas that seem to beset some of you, and by the sound of it I should be eternally grateful.

silashand
30-11-2007, 10:55
I presume you didn't make use of strategic assets like flank march? I think you'll find if you can get behind the vehicles they will pop pretty easily, and Apoc seems to offer a lot easier ways to do that than in normal games. Mycetic Swarm would seem to be a good choice as well with deepstriking big bugs. JMO though.

Cheers, Gary

stonehorse
30-11-2007, 10:58
I presume you didn't make use of strategic assets like flank march? I think you'll find if you can get behind the vehicles they will pop pretty easily, and Apoc seems to offer a lot easier ways to do that than in normal games. Mycetic Swarm would seem to be a good choice as well with deepstriking big bugs. JMO though.

Cheers, Gary

I had every intention of doing so, but I was told that it only effects one brood or monsterous creature, so I opted not to take it. I don't have the apocalypse book, nor do I intend to buy it or play it ever again. It just wasn't fun.

Gorbad Ironclaw
30-11-2007, 11:00
Exactly. All this: "Oh, 40K with its relatively balanced rules is only for power gamers and tournament players. Now with Apocalypse we have the official licensed permission by GW to have FUN(tm). You can't have fun with tested rules, you can only have fun with untested and unbalanced rules, because it is not about the players but about what GW says is just for fun or not." nonsense is really driving me crazy.


Agreed. That's the thing that botheres me most. Since when did 40k turn into this unfun chore that we have to suffer until we can play Apocalypse?

I got very little interest in Apocalypse, I'm not interesting in super heavy vehicles, and I don't own a single army that's anywhere near that scale, despite having played for more than a decade. I am however having quite a bit of fun with 40k.

If 40k isn't fun, you only got yourself to blame IMO. Nothing is stopping you from doing fun things with it. You don't need a rulebook that 'lets you have fun' to changing things.
Just talk to your opponent about it. You are most likely going to need to do that with Apocalypse anyway, so whats the difference?

Stingray_tm
30-11-2007, 11:03
I think GW did a great job of spreading this meme, that you can only have real fun, when you play Apocalypse and buy a lot of models.

silashand
30-11-2007, 11:04
You don't need a rulebook that 'lets you have fun' to changing things.

While I may not need it, I know quite a few players who won't try a damn thing new or outside of the rulebook without some sort of "official" permission to do so. I think that's a shame, but it is what it is and Apocalypse has seemed in some respects to have lifted that veil. For that I appreciate it.

Cheers, Gary
- who thinks most of his armies are that large unfortunately ;)

AdmiralDick
30-11-2007, 11:11
Beats me why anyone would field half a billion Landraiders

wasn't there a story (either when they released the plastic Landraider or when they did and IA article on it), about a chapter who fought a battle over a bridge. but whilst the Landraider spearhead was 'tactically withdrawing' back across the bridge the enemy shot it out sending a number of them into the gourge below. the marines thought all was lost, so they promptly fell back further,
unable to advance further under such intense fire. but when they got back to a safe possition all the other tanks stopped working, because the machine spirits had decided amoungst themselves that they weren't going to go any further until the other Landraiders had been rescued.

so the marines were forced to try and retrieve the lost tanks despite being unter the barrels of the enemy guns. of course this resulted in the loss of even more tanks. i can't quite remember how it ended but on the second attempt they managed to rig a system that saved all of them and later the tanks were decorated for their bravery. basically it was Black Hawk Down in 40k.

a very silly, but entertaining battle. could you do better with 15 landraiders?

MrP
30-11-2007, 11:14
I had every intention of doing so, but I was told that it only effects one brood or monsterous creature, so I opted not to take it. I don't have the apocalypse book, nor do I intend to buy it or play it ever again. It just wasn't fun.

You've been deceived, mate.


Flank March: The strategic reserves under the command of the player that chose this asset may eneter play from any and all table edges.

All of your Strategic Reserves use it, not just one brood or whatnot.

I'm not fielding loads of tanks because I expect them to win - in fact, I expect them to get tank hunted to death in a few turns, but just for silliness' and amusement's sake. How often does one see fifty odd Russ variants on a table, after all? ;)

silashand
30-11-2007, 11:17
You've been deceived, mate.

Agreed. I think your opponent pulled a fast one on you. Flank March is an AWESOME ability for an infantry army. IMO it's probably one of the best overall really. Strategic Assets really go a long way toward balancing the abusiveness of all the lists IMO and insure that no one style is inordinately more powerful than any other. JMO, of course...

Plus, it's fun to see the look on your opponent's eyes when half your army shows up behind him. For everything else, there's Mastercard... ;)

Cheers, Gary

Hellebore
30-11-2007, 11:20
The point of apocalypse is to be the teacher that gives you a special stamp on you hand that says 'Thinks for themself'.

Apocalypse is whatever you and your friends AGREE it is to be.

Once people realise that AGREEMENT is required, Apocalypse is a no brainer.

Hellebore

Stingray_tm
30-11-2007, 11:23
Well, practically you are being told and now are allowed to "think for yourself". I prefer to start to think for myself myself ;)

Lord Damocles
30-11-2007, 11:28
Well, practically you are being told and now are allowed to "think for yourself". I prefer to start to think for myself myself ;)

Exactly my thinking. At my local GW (the only place I play) we used to have multiplayer games of about 3000 points every couple of weeks. These were some of the best games I've played. However now that GW has so kindly told everyone that they can play large games with superheavies and whatnot, most people seem to be more concerned with how many huge templates they can lob about rather than having a really enjoyable game. Which is a shame:cries:.

silashand
30-11-2007, 11:31
most people seem to be more concerned with how many huge templates they can lob about rather than having a really enjoyable game. Which is a shame:cries:.

Some people think lobbing huge templates and killing massive numbers of enemy models at one time (like such weapons would probably do were they actually real) is fun. Depends on what you enjoy really. Besides, nothings to say you can't still play your "normal" large scale 40K games or even adopt Apocalypse rules and agree not to use super-heavies. I happen to like the Strategic Assets and wouldn't mind games using just them. Same with some of the Battle Formations. JMO though...

Cheers, Gary

Kriegsherr
30-11-2007, 11:57
Glad I'm not the only one who has seen through the poorly hidden veil of Fun that GW are vomiting about Apocalypse.


Well, I'm not agreeing 100% with all your statements, but one I'm also pretty pissed at is that above.

There are (and always have been) ways to get max kicks out of 40k since the dawn of time. It is called "Houserules" and "Playing for fun" and can be used no matter if the game is played with 400 or 40'000 points.

Just use your brain, make up cool new rules, your own missions and stratagems/strategic assets/strategy cards and ignore rules which are just in the way (like the FOC sometimes).

Fun games don't have to be balanced. Often, the most fun arouse from a situation were a side is loosing but turns around the wheel with sheer luck or really good tactics.

Just because in Apoc GW has given its official okay for everyone to go crazy, doesn't means its not possible with normal games of 40k if some houserules are applied or some rules are ignored.

People that don't want to play with houserules obviously wouldn't want to play apocalypse or would just abuse the freedom.

So its not like "Apocalypse is the best thing that ever happened to 40k!!!"... its more like "It's about time GW is getting aware of their past mistakes. I really hope that this new mindset swings over to 40k 5th edition!"

Is it that hard to print a little page in the rulebook explaining the difference between a competetive game and a fun game? That officially states that for the second one, with the agreement of both sides you can do whatever the hell you feel like?
It's sad that something like this is needed for a TT Game, but it seems to be thanks to the tourny mindset that has sunken into the general 40k gamers mind, and it wouldn't cost GW much to make all 40k players aware that they should see the official 40k rules as a starting point, and not the end-all-and-be-all.

That's what I liked about Chapter approved. It was a way to give really well thought out player houserules a forum were they could be seen by all gamers worldwide (well, sure, only the one buying the WD, but that was a larger part back then ;) ). And I'm pretty sure it inspired much more people to do their own houserule than apocalypse. Even though the latter also will inspire a lot of people.

"Chapter Approved" was the best thing that ever happened to 40k. not Apocalypse.

Sister_Sin
30-11-2007, 12:12
As I recall, in more than one edition of 40K GW did in fact tell people that the rules were the starting place, to make the game their own however they liked. It was certainly true of Rogue Trader. Not sure why folks don't seem to pay it any mind, but there it is.

We've always played for fun here; even when we had some local tournaments our group always showed up with background consistent armies, even though it meant we'd get pasted as a rule. Those are gone now and our gaming hasn't changed: fun first! House rules rock, as do campaigns and crazy weird scenarios.

We all love Apocalypse here, precisely because we *can* go nuts as usual and it's clearly encouraged in the book itself. I'm with other folk in hoping GW takes the chance with 5e to reiterate this aspect of the regular 40K game.

Sister Sin

stonehorse
30-11-2007, 12:21
@Kriegsherr

I think you may have missed my point.

I'm all for fun, if I wasn't I wouldn't be playing these games, what annoys me is that people seem to think that by buying this book they are then free to think for themselves... if they arew free to think for themselves then they wouldn't need to buy the book in the first place. What's even worse is people are parading their 'look at me I'm a free thinker', because they have bought said book... it's almost as silly as people trying to argue against evolution.

The rules for any game system are not written in stone, this is very true... this is why I still play 2nd edition 40K, but with some Houserules (which just for the record I'm fully aware of the ideas behide them).

Word to the masses who have been duped into buying the Apoc book... you don't need the Apoc book to play fun games, you've got an imagination that lives in the grey matter in your head. Switch it on and let it flex it's muscle for a change.

Killgore
30-11-2007, 12:33
imho apocalypse is there to inspire creativity

arm yourself with some cardboard and make your warlord titan!

glue a few pringles tubes together and make that defence laser of death

create a scenario and have lots of fun

lord_blackfang
30-11-2007, 12:43
Word to the masses who have been duped into buying the Apoc book... you don't need the Apoc book to play fun games, you've got an imagination that lives in the grey matter in your head. Switch it on and let it flex it's muscle for a change.

The problem is that many people need to be spoonfed.

You obviously don't need Apocalypse... but there are many of us who have picked up the game in the era of WAAC Torunament Mentality(TM) and have had any original notions of fluffy compisition, fun rules tweaking, etc. beaten out of us.

Easy E
30-11-2007, 12:50
Yes, the curse of Officialdom was everywhere, and now those same officials have told those afflicted with the curse, that it was always a curse that the afflicted had inflicted upon themselves.

Kinda silly when you think about it, but it had to be done.

Ordo Ouroboros
30-11-2007, 12:54
imho apocalypse is there to inspire creativity

arm yourself with some cardboard and make your warlord titan!

glue a few pringles tubes together and make that defence laser of death

create a scenario and have lots of fun


Currently at work on a cardboard Baneblade for my Chaos army

MrP
30-11-2007, 16:10
[QUOTE=stonehorse;2140363Word to the masses who have been duped into buying the Apoc book... you don't need the Apoc book to play fun games, you've got an imagination that lives in the grey matter in your head. Switch it on and let it flex it's muscle for a change.[/QUOTE]

Um . . . I've played plenty of massive games before Apoc was even conceived. Nicely themed games with 20' long boards and Tau Stealth Suits attempting to knock out a mixed Basilisk/Bombard battery to enable a successful Ork attack on Guard infantry further up the table. Of course one doesn't need the Apoc book to play fun games, but just because one's bought it doesn't mean one was duped into so doing. It's a nifty little volume. Incidentally, it has far fewer grammatical and syntactical errors than anything I've seen come out of Forgeworld. One can but presume they bothered hiring a proof-reader this time. ;)

Sister_Sin
30-11-2007, 17:43
I've been playing this game for 20 years. Over that time I've participated in games that lasted the weekend (RT days), themed campaigns, and so on...all based on imagination and loaded with house rules where desired/needed.

I still bought the Apoc book. It's nifty and that's good enough for me.

It doesn't make me unimaginative nor does it mean I was duped into it. I personally like the book.

To each their own.

Sister Sin

Phoenix_79
30-11-2007, 18:46
Personally, I'm enjoying the freedom of Apocalypse, in that I can just plonk my 9000 points of Imperial Guard, Space Marines and Eldar on the table and be done with it. No Force Org limitations (not that my IG suffered too much with that - above 5000 points I've found them to be a steamroller army. Oh look, I've got 10 infantry squads with Lascannons, a Lascannon team, a Basilisk and 2 Russes, a Baneblade, 6 Sentinels with Las and Autocannons.... Against Tau, there's not much survives 3 turns), just no holds insanity. My regular opponent likes it because he mainly plays Tau and he can now field those 25 Crisis suits, 5 Hammerheads and 6 Broadsides. It actually favours him, as it gives him more AT fire. In our regular games, my armor and numbers always had him struggling.

My big issue with Apocalypse is the book itself. IMO, it's the worse book GW have ever published. Sure, it looks pretty. But what the devil happened? There's no structure! Some rules here, 18 pages of photos and 'hobby' wibblings, 5 pages of rules, more wibbling etc. Would it really have hurt to have put ALL the rules, strategic assets etc together in a single section, rather than seemingly randomly inserted? As it is, the book is more like a £25 White Dwarf with one of the old, £5 Codex Assassins sized codexes split up amongst it. I was extremely disappointed with the content and layout of the book.

And oh yeah, hi folks. I'm new :)

junglesnake
30-11-2007, 19:02
Nope, nope and nope. The point of apocalypse was to release big models that a lot of "I have to have" people would go and buy at least one of. In otherwords to make GW some cash.

Freeform wargaming?!!! What? Isnt that roleplaying but on a slightly bigger scale ala how the original warhammer fantasy battles was and rogue trader slightly?

As has already been mentioned - you can do tactical on a larger ground scale with Epic, but as they failed to market it effectively the next best thing was to target 40k - one of their best selling games and create an add on so that in three re-designs time if Apocalypse doesn't exist they still have some big, nice money making kits that people will still want to buy.

I give it two years tops.

Grazzy
30-11-2007, 19:14
Apocalypse is to officially bring back some of the fun of 40k from yesteryear. Unofficially its about making everyone buy huge packs of models and get their armies up to 3000 points. Anyway, while you read on the net about people who have bought 25 Landspeeder tornadoes, there are only a few such people in the world who will do this. The chance of you playing one is pretty small.

Imperialis_Dominatus
30-11-2007, 19:16
Apocalypse is to officially bring back some of the fun of 40k from yesteryear. Unofficially its about making everyone buy huge packs of models and get their armies up to 3000 points. Anyway, while you read on the net about people who have bought 25 Landspeeder tornadoes, there are only a few such people in the world who will do this. The chance of you playing one is pretty small.

And if I ever found someone who did, I'd simply choose someone else to play. There are a lot of people who want to play Apocalypse; I've no time to waste on general scum when I can find like-minded individuals who just want to see huge masses of forces slam into each other and tear each other apart without wanting to tear each other apart...

Kahadras
30-11-2007, 19:19
Personaly I'm not that worried if people don't 'get' Apocalypse. As goes the saying 'it takes two to tango' if you aren't in agreement with your opponant with what Apocalypse should be 'about' then just walk away. If I was fielding my foot based Space Wolves against an army of Falcon and Harliquins or IG tanks or Landspeeder Tornado hordes I'd just pack up and leave. What's the point in playing if you're not going to have much fun?

Kahadras

silashand
30-11-2007, 19:37
My big issue with Apocalypse is the book itself. IMO, it's the worse book GW have ever published. Sure, it looks pretty. But what the devil happened? There's no structure! Some rules here, 18 pages of photos and 'hobby' wibblings, 5 pages of rules, more wibbling etc. Would it really have hurt to have put ALL the rules, strategic assets etc together in a single section, rather than seemingly randomly inserted? As it is, the book is more like a £25 White Dwarf with one of the old, £5 Codex Assassins sized codexes split up amongst it. I was extremely disappointed with the content and layout of the book.

I have to admit, though I like the Apoc book, the above is quite true. It does seem quite disorganized for something supposedly including things like "rules." :)

And for the person who said Chapter Approved was the best thing for the game, actually I have to agree (and Warhammer Chronicles for WFB). The loss of that was a serious blow to the hobby aspect of the game IMO, as was the termination of the Citadel Journal.

JMO...

Cheers, Gary

AngryAngel
30-11-2007, 19:38
Could anyone explain to me, why you need a 50€ rulebook and maybe 200€+ of additional models in order to "have fun" instead of... well... just have fun with 40K?

I can understand if people are saying, they want big battles. (Even if IMHO Apo is just 40K with bigger and more expensive models). But what i don't get is, that people say Apo is about fun and 40K isn't.

Ok..you don't need to buy more models to play apoc. If you have a good sized force anyways..which I normally say is around 2000 pts..gives some more units and things lets you mix and match a little.

You can easily play an apoc battle..if you have friends..just place your army..with one or two of theirs..each leading their own of course on one side..then you play another 2 or three people..and walaa you have a 6000 pt per side apoc battle.

Yeah not everyone will have all the models to field that much just on a side by themselves. But hey..I don't know about you..but I am buying new models all the time regardless..35 dollars there..50 here ya know ?..You'll have it sooner or later. As well I actually enjoy teaming up with my friends much moe then playing by myself.

You can blame each other if a flank collapses..you can vote on the mvp of your team..you can make up funny stories of why a squad of firewarriors jumped into an assault to help out a marine tactical squad. That kinda stuff to me is amazingly fun..and you don't need to bust your wallet to do it.

I don't think anyone doesn't see GW wants to sell more models. They are a buisness thats what buisnesses do. I hope they sell a ton of models..why ?..because I enjoy the game and wish it to grow. I Hope in fact for more apoc sized army deals..and that their next expansion is just as memorable. I've had alot of fun in my apoc games..oh and infantry are not worthless.

BrainFireBob
30-11-2007, 19:51
There's a dedicated group- of 40K players, no less!- that consider everything Games Workshop has done since certain periods wrong.

There's a group that thinks dropping ASM in 2nd was bad, and it's been downhill since.

There's a group that think the new codex paradigm is awful, and everything since it's started has been downhill.

Etc.

Honestly, it reads like they're just trying to tear GW down. If you hate the game, why do you play?

If you stopped playing because you hate it, why the hell do you feel you have a right to do your damnedest to ruin other people's fun? Out is out.

Khornies & milk
30-11-2007, 19:53
Personaly I'm not that worried if people don't 'get' Apocalypse. As goes the saying 'it takes two to tango' if you aren't in agreement with your opponant with what Apocalypse should be 'about' then just walk away. If I was fielding my foot based Space Wolves against an army of Falcon and Harliquins or IG tanks or Landspeeder Tornado hordes I'd just pack up and leave. What's the point in playing if you're not going to have much fun?

Kahadras

That is it in a 'nutsheel'. Just don't play with Gamers who have this attitude, and enjoy large games with Mates who think and play with similar attitudes as you. Simple!
All these Gamers who are silly enough to spend bucketfuls of money making uber-power lists with 20 Landspeeders, etc, are the ones who are going to be upset when no-one wants to play them, and realize that in the end they have wasted their money.
I like the Apoc Book actually, but just for the fact it's 40K related, like all the IA books I have, but I don't use it as a ruleset to play large games.

DapperAnarchist
30-11-2007, 20:00
I think one of the things that people forget is that points weren't always there - and don't have to be. Points are good for tests of tactics and the like - but how often do balanced forces face each other like that? I'd almost prefer to play a game where I have 5 marines with bolters hiding behind ruins, taking on 50 orks, seeing how many they can take out before they go down. Though I go all in on a pair in poker, just to see what happens...

mcl
30-11-2007, 20:22
The cynicism on display here is fun in its own right. :evilgrin:

But I have to agree that there should be no apoco-fun-snobs.

WH40K is fun period. I intend to play lots of Apoc with my kids but that does not mean I (we) will be ignoring normal sized games. Dammit it is a great game, a great hobby and if nothing else the Apoc releases have allowed us to build up a decent set of armies at much less cost than it otherwise would have.

And it lets GW sell more models? Duh. They are a company out to make a profit last I checked. All power to them. And yes much of their product line up is over-priced but I am happy to pay when I can turn up at a GW shop with my kids and get excellent service and a great game. The staff & facilities dont come cheap.

So hurrah for Apoc and lets hope this helps revive GW's fortunes. Apoc really is fun... and so is 'standard' WH40K.

Having said that I could not care less about devoting huge energies to some uber-army list that may or may not be cheese in the eyes of some but not others. I just want to ensure that the game & hobby experience is a good one for my sons (and indeed for myself).

PS A recent grad starter let on he believed I was the most cynical man he had ever met. So, um, I guess I have my moments too :p

Khornies & milk
30-11-2007, 20:23
I think one of the things that people forget is that points weren't always there - and don't have to be. Points are good for tests of tactics and the like - but how often do balanced forces face each other like that? I'd almost prefer to play a game where I have 5 marines with bolters hiding behind ruins, taking on 50 orks, seeing how many they can take out before they go down. Though I go all in on a pair in poker, just to see what happens...

I play games like that all the time, even in Apoc.....I play DH:D:rolleyes:
But yea...seeing how long a squad of GKT's can hold out against 3 squads of Berserkers.
Making up different scenarios and such, even in Apoc, keeps the game fresh, and FUN.

Khornies & milk
30-11-2007, 20:33
So hurrah for Apoc and lets hope this helps revive GW's fortunes. Apoc really is fun... and so is 'standard' WH40K.

Having said that I could not care less about devoting huge energies to some uber-army list that may or may not be cheese in the eyes of some but not others. I just want to ensure that the game & hobby experience is a good one for my sons (and indeed for myself).

Totally agree! My son and I play all the time, but also incude Apoc-sized games. Some of these have lasted 2 weekends, and are great fun.
40K has been a great way to 'bond' for us (even further), and in the end it's ALL about FUN.
If People don't get that from the Hobby, then there is no real point to it (imo).

jfrazell
30-11-2007, 21:41
I thought the point was revenues for GW. I wish them well. Did I miss something?

mcl
30-11-2007, 22:50
I thought the point was revenues for GW. I wish them well. Did I miss something?

Yes :p

Win-Win methinks.

TheMav80
01-12-2007, 00:48
If the entire point of Apoc was just to make money, they had a funny way of doing it. I don't know where the attitude came from that you had to have your own 5000 point army of whatever to play came from. You do have friends (or at least other people you know) who play Warhammer with you right? I assume you don't set up your armies at home and play against yourself all the time. Not that I've never done that...

You can just have your standard 2K point army you play all the time, 3 other guys with similar points and bam! You got yourself an apoc game. And look at that, you didn't have to spend any more money if you didn't want.

But let us assume you felt the imperitive need to buy more models. Well those greedy bastiches over at GW had the gall to release tons of great deals! Unbelieveable! Look at the prices on those box sets. I believe my Rapid Insertion Force was $120. Sounds like a lot sure. Until you realize that with 9 Crisis Suits inside at $20 a piece and three stealth suits at another $20...you just saved yourself $80! I envy anyone who was new to 40K getting into it when these sets came out.

As for only unimaginative dupes being the only ones to buy the book, that is just silly. For one, it has some pretty good backround stuff in it. For two, it has great ideas in general in it by way of the datasheets. I'm sure some people somewhere have come up with similar ideas and similar rules, but now I have them all neatly collected for me right here. Damn right I'm willing to pay for that. Now I don't even have to go through the effort of fine tuning any crazy ideas I may have come up with myself. Even within the datasheets there is freedom to come up with your own ideas. Not to mention they are releasing new ones...totally free online. Their money grubbing treachery knows no bounds!

AngryAngel
01-12-2007, 01:21
lol..They are completely diabolical fiends aren't they ?

TheMav80
01-12-2007, 01:47
I'd like to add an addendum to my previous post. As it is something I have discovered only recently upon entering the wild (and sometimes frightening) Warhammer forums.

I've been playing for only about a year and half now. Not that long in the grand scheme of things. Most importantly though, I and two other friends (whom I live with) all started at the same time. We played before we even had "legal" armies. Just one troop choice and an HQ, while another only had an Elite, while another only had two troops. Whatever. Just to learn how to play the game.

Another important thing to note is that we were friends before we even started playing the game.

So living with two guys, who I am friends with, has allowed us to pretty much play Warhammer whenever we feel like. With people I know. I don't HAVE to go down to whatever local gaming store and play with some person I have never met against an army I've never even seen the rules for. Is this guy cheating with his Dark Eldar? Eff if I know! For all I know they could all have strength 7 AP 3 Assault 5 guns!

So because of this environment I never really have to deal with most of the stuff people complain about. The whole tourney rabid game style has never really sprung up. We've each gone on long win streaks using a certain arm build while the other two rapidly scheme to build an army to be ableto beat that...but still be able to beat the other guy.

But outside of this environment there are people who may not have "friends" who play Warhammer. I put the friends in quotes for a reason. Some people, I am sure, have wha tI would call "warhammer friends". These are people they know from playing Warhammer only. They met them at the gaming club and really only know each other through the game. Other people might not really even have that. So if you have to show up at the gaming store randomly never knowing who will be there it is nice to have an actual set of GW approved rules to show whoever is there. It removes any sort of ambiguity. You don't have to worry so much about some random bloke waving about a sheaf of papers with these crazy rules he has made up, scrawled out onto college rule, written in (what you can assume) must be cryptic xenos runes. Apocolypse is for them. Now you don't need to spend an hour and a half explaining to someone the house rules you both like to play with. Apocolypse sream lines all that.

Cornelius
01-12-2007, 02:43
800 Land Raiders. All painted?

TheMav80
01-12-2007, 02:44
800 Land Raiders. All painted?

Yes it is all painted!

What? That's not just undercoated. I'm playing Black Templar...yeah...thats it. :angel:

Cornelius
01-12-2007, 02:54
If a Land Raider is roughly 4dm2, then the playing table for 800 Land Raiders should be at least... 32m2? That's a lot of space, and leaves no room for maneuvres...

ssgtdude
01-12-2007, 03:18
My first game of Apoc I had some really mixed feelings about it. I didn't go out and have some truly Uber list, and besides my normal 2500 point list I added a Hellhammer. We were divided into two teams and each team had about 5 player each with about 3000 points. When I saw the Carnage on the opposing players first turn the game immediately wasn't fun and was actually torquing me off to a point that I was about ready to pack it up. Once The turn was over for both sides I realized that it was just a game and everyone was really having a ball seeing their units go down in blazes of heroic glory. Being the only guard player on the field as well as the commander for our team I placed the guard in the rear where they would be able to hold the objectives within our deployment zone. The main force fighting force was forward and fought to gain objectives. In the end we all had a lot of fun. I did have to pull the other commander aside though when during the second turn he started to feel the pressure of the amount of devastating fire power on the table. Helped to remind him that as the vets in the store at the time we had to make it fun for the kids and that this was just about having fun not about just blowing stuff up.

In subsequent games I am always given the kids who have been playing only a few months and are just getting into the game. This is hard for a vet player let me tell you. "Where do I deploy?", "What do I shoot at?", "what does this unit do?" All in all I take the time to show them and explain to them there is more to the game than just blowing the enemy away, but some of them just want to have the big battle and want to just blow stuff up. I'm having fun teaching them how to play as well as how to achieve the objectives not just to blow stuff up.

rintinglen
01-12-2007, 05:00
Back to the OP's original question, I think that there are simply some souls that can find no joy in change. (I think I understand--I have read the new Chaos Marine Codex). Often times it seems that what is new disturbs us for no reason other that it makes us change our perceptions and habits. We have to re-think our strategies, reformulate our plans and make new lists. Effort that some think is too much to demand just to play a game that we already have spent many a moon learning.
That said, I had a blast last week in a 3000+ point a side pseudo-Apocalypse game. We had Gray Knights and Space Marines versus Chaos Space Marines and more Space Marines and a rolicking good time was had killing one another's forces. 200 plus power armoured madmen gleefully blasting, charging and hacking at one another, with a bare smathering of tanks--2 vindicators and a predator.
Get together some friends, get together your armies and go to it. It is fun.

Vineas
01-12-2007, 05:20
I love Apoc and everything about it but I also love Combat Patrol size stuff too. One of my friends is in the process of adding no less than 10 dreadnaughts to his army. I plan to counter that in the future with a couple of Barbed Heirodules (sp?) or maybe even a Heirophant Bio-titan. I know they are all usable in regular 40k games and I'm sure there will be games where we play 3k of non-Apoc that I will want to take one of my Heirodules.

Same goes for Eldar. My goal is to have about 4-5k points worth of Mech Eldar (mostly Bikes when the sexy new Godwyn ones get released) and I will probably add a Vampire and Revenant Titan.

I'm glad Apoc is here and I'm really looking forward to the Planetfall expansion :)

Vemetric
01-12-2007, 05:28
I believe we have come to a few key agreements then on the Apocolypse subject:

1 - We should all play 40K, at whatever level we do, to have fun. If you want to play Apoc, Combat Patrol, Kill Squad, or hell, some strange modified form of Necromunda/40k hybrid, do it! It's all about enjoying ourselves together in a game we all enjoy.

2 - Apoc largely was designed to achieve higher sales of models and give players the official "go ahead" to bend/break the rules now and again in the name of fun.

3 - There will always be twink heads who play like tantrum throwing 9 year old their inner child really are.

4 - It's time to buck up, have fun, and if people choose to twink, a simple, "No, I don't feel like playing you today" will suffice. Eventually they'll come around to these truths we have already uncovered.



Vemetric, who is in the process of converting a macharius from his baneblade, cause bucking the trend is fun, and saving him a boatload of cash...