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AdmiralDick
30-11-2007, 13:03
we've had a lot of abstract discussion about why people do or do not like the latest Codex: CSM, but i thought it was time to get some more finite ideas down.

to that end we need to compare some particular aspect of the two codexes, like for like. now, we don't want to be too general and wooly, so not whole army lists, but a specific unit type. there's been a lot of discussion over the changes to the Daemon Prince, and whether they has been have become more 'cookie' cutter than they were before. so perhaps that is the best place to start.

if you have played Chaos Space Marines regularly with either the current or the former Codex please list the HQ (doesn't have to be just D.Princes, but they are a good start) units you would have commonly fielded in both armies. then say which you prefer and why.

that way we can compare specific examples of how one army has adapted between codexes and more generally how varied HQ choices were in each codex.

remember, no one is stupid for their choice, its up to them entirely, and don't feel you have to convince anyone of your possition. at this stage we are just looking for results. also, if you are not interested in this thread, that's cool, but please don't feel the need to tell us all.

Reaver83
30-11-2007, 13:18
Well, taking my basic DP, with wings and MOK, costing 140 points

Now to build that combo from the last codex would cost = 195
(lord, aura, Essence, Flight, mutation, Rune, strength,stature +MOK)

So thats a saving imho

EVIL INC
30-11-2007, 13:25
Before, I always tooled up with strength, toughness, armor and to be honest, never really fooled with daemon weapons the rest were piddly things just to spend points like an extra close combat weapon for the extra attack . When I gave him the mark of tzeentch, I always used the flamer template power to negate the low bs.
In essence, I usually ended up with what I get now. The only difference is that now I get a decent bs, less attacks and lower cost. Every other dp, I ever took were pretty much just cookie cutter ones just like mine.

Skyth
30-11-2007, 13:34
Former prince: MoCU, Speed, Strength, Mutation, Resilience, Aura, (Sometimes Visage), Dark Blade, Bolt Pistol, Spikey Bits, Frags, Infiltrate, Furious Charge.

Former Lt: MoCU, Terminator Armor, Daemonic Strength, Power Weapon/Combi-Bolter

New:Sorcerer w/Mark of Slaanesh, Steed of Slaanesh, and Lash of Submission.

jfrazell
30-11-2007, 13:57
I can't take my old commander. He was a cheap LT with an either lance. No such thing as ether lances now :(

Bloodknight
30-11-2007, 14:11
MY old commander was a Chaos Lord of Nurgle with manreaper, strength, speed, mutation.
My new commander is a Chaos Lord of Nurgle with manreaper.
The only difference is that he now is S4 instead of 5, one attack less and has no beast movement. He's a bit cheaper, got +1 WS and has a 5+ ward so hes not too bad of a trade off.

My sorcerer got hell of a lot better due to better powers, force weapon and he's cheaper to boot.

Haven't played a DP yet. I did not like him before and I still do not.

Captain Micha
30-11-2007, 14:11
It counts as something else now (the ether lance). possibly a power weapon, or something else is all.

Bloodknight
30-11-2007, 14:16
Combiflamer and power weapon perhaps.

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
30-11-2007, 14:22
Former Acheron: MoCU, Jump Pack, Strength, Mutation, Visage, Dark Blade, Bolt Pistol, Spiky Bits, Frags, Infiltrate, Furious Charge. 177 pts [alpha legon rules]

New Acheron: MoS, Jump Pack, Lash. 145 pts

former was more characterful, but they screwed Lord and Daemon Weapon entries so now i have to take lasher.

their fault

damiengore
30-11-2007, 14:26
DP is cheaper now by a ton but has become an IC and elite killer, no more slaying all and sundry. I never played the crazy khorne DP's but I am glad they are gone because they were sick and brainless. The new DP is a cheap great counterattacker, needs support but that's a good thing.

Chaos lord is aces now IMO, cheap and uber killy. I go for a Lord with Daemon weapon, brutally cheap cost wise and a fantastic hth guy, better WS than loyalist counterparts, Inv save and a butt load of attacks at a good strength. Can kill squads or IC's for a bargain.

On another note, the greater daemons are way better now, cheap as stink and you can possess any charcter you like so it can go where you need it. That and you can turn you wounded outnumber IC into a beast! Lots of fun and more tactical now.

MegaPope
30-11-2007, 14:26
DP or Chaos Lord, I've no problems with my new commanders themselves.

But where did their retinues go?

grizzly ruin
30-11-2007, 15:09
It counts as something else now (the ether lance). possibly a power weapon, or something else is all.

Yes we should just counts as our entire armies.

Oh, by the way his Lieutenant who actually wields the now non-existant Ether Lance no longer exists as well.

Here's to more options.

jfrazell
30-11-2007, 15:46
respectfully,
1. No such thing as a Lieutenant now.
2. An ether lance was an AP3 flamer. There is no AP 3 flamer now.
A lord with a power weapon is a lord with a power weapon, not even close to being similar to an old LT, much less and old LT with an ether lance. Its like saying use your old demon prince and just count him as a greater demon. Er...ok.
There is no option.

In light of the flak I'm getting on another board when posting my revised demon force "counting as" tyranids, I officially view the "counts as" argument as un-supportable.

Captain Micha
30-11-2007, 15:55
Chaos wasn't the only army who's junior commander got the axe. All of the codexes are ditching them. I'm not entirely sure why other than the fact that a lieutenant stat wise might not be different than say a chaos lord. Or that technically speaking a junior commander is better than the senior commander pts wise and people abused that.

Also when something doesn't exist option wise for it to be such, that's when counts as is infact valid. Counting tyranid as daemons is not a counts as, that's a proxy.

Saying a bone singer counts as a farseer for example is valid as counts as.
See?

EVIL INC
30-11-2007, 15:59
Actually the LT that is gone is now replaced by a much better option. You can now have BOTH a full strength champion AND a full strength psycher rather then having to take one and settling for a weak version of the second.
Aether lance. That is just a weapon. Switch to another. That doesnt mean you have to use the lash. Try to make a character that is actually characterfull rather then go for the cheese options. Also try to give your characters actual character through modeling, storyline and history rather then a "unique" gift combo that is actually identical to the one used by almost every other chaos player in the world.
As has been proven, the new character options are much better, more balenced and encourage better tactics then before. It has been a boon to the chaos codex and chaos players in general. Of course you will find those who whing for the sole reason that it is different from what they are used to or because they now have to either learn actual tactics to play rather then rely on thier cheese uber charaxcters or find a new way to min/max a new uber cheese character to win games for them.

Chrismage
30-11-2007, 16:00
My old Prince was: Armor, Aura, Stature, Strength, Resilience, Speed, Collar of Khorne, Feel No Pain, Mark of Khorne, and two Close Combat Weapons. A bargain at 172 points.

Now, Daemon Princes have all the liability they used to and none of the common decency to actually have a Monstrous Creature's defensive stats. It's so bad that I actually invented a character for my army with "nebulous allegiance to the gods" just so I could justify taking the Mark of Nurgle in a primarily Undivided/Khorne army.

*Shudder*

Anyway, now I either run a Sorceror with the Mark of Tzeentch, a Disc, an Icon, Doombolt, and Warptime - all for the low, low cost of 200(!) points - or a stripped-down Lord with a Daemon Weapon, a Mark, and maybe Terminator Armor. Keep them as cheap as possible and keep your points for other things.

ffoecaf
30-11-2007, 16:12
respectfully,
2. An ether lance was an AP3 flamer. There is no AP 3 flamer now.


Doom Siren. Sure, means you have to use noise marines, but you don't have to go the sonic weapons route, and use them as higher init fearless troops. So you can still use him, just not in the same place you were. Throw on a power weapon too, and he's pretty boss.

jfrazell
30-11-2007, 16:13
Actually the LT that is gone is now replaced by a much better option. You can now have BOTH a full strength champion AND a full strength psycher rather then having to take one and settling for a weak version of the second.
Aether lance. That is just a weapon. Switch to another. That doesnt mean you have to use the lash. Try to make a character that is actually characterfull rather then go for the cheese options. Also try to give your characters actual character through modeling, storyline and history rather then a "unique" gift combo that is actually identical to the one used by almost every other chaos player in the world.
As has been proven, the new character options are much better, more balenced and encourage better tactics then before. It has been a boon to the chaos codex and chaos players in general. Of course you will find those who whing for the sole reason that it is different from what they are used to or because they now have to either learn actual tactics to play rather then rely on thier cheese uber charaxcters or find a new way to min/max a new uber cheese character to win games for them.


You could do that in the old codex. This thread is an experiment in old vs. new. I'm stating, correctly, that there is no "new" for my HQ choice.

In essence all HQ choices are now strictly Lords or demon princes. You get a power weapon or a demon weapon. Its like saying to marine players-you HQ option now consists of a chaplain or a chapter master with a power weapon. Ain't counts as grand :mad:

For the record it was demons using Nid rules.

Democratus
30-11-2007, 16:16
Old DP: Mark of Nurgle, Aura, Mutation, Speed, Stature, Nurgle's Rot, Dreadaxe, P. Icon
Cost: 172

New DP: Mark of Tzeench, Wings, Warptime
Cost: 175

My old DP was cheaper and he was much more powerful (T6, ignore Armor and Invulnerable Saves, up to 24" charge).

The change was bad enough that I've now switched to Lucius the Eternal. This guy is awesome and a bargain price.

Captain Micha
30-11-2007, 16:19
You could do that in the old codex. This thread is an experiment in old vs. new. I'm stating, correctly, that there is no "new" for my HQ choice.

In essence all HQ choices are now strictly Lords or demon princes. You get a power weapon or a demon weapon. Its like saying to marine players-you HQ option now consists of a chaplain or a chapter master with a power weapon. Ain't counts as grand :mad:

For the record it was demons using Nid rules.

You forgot the sorcerer. also there are still plas pistols and what not. That unit option's upgrades are pretty impressive in their range.

==Me==
30-11-2007, 16:28
You could do that in the old codex. This thread is an experiment in old vs. new. I'm stating, correctly, that there is no "new" for my HQ choice.

In essence all HQ choices are now strictly Lords or demon princes. You get a power weapon or a demon weapon. Its like saying to marine players-you HQ option now consists of a chaplain or a chapter master with a power weapon. Ain't counts as grand :mad:

Yep, all we have now is a 2W Chaplain, a 2W Librarian, a 3W Master, or special characters. DA/BA seem to be doing fine with that.

Now, as for an ether lance:

Chaos Sorceror with force weapon, bolt pistol, Wind of Chaos. He gets a nifty ether lance counting as WoC and a FW, and you even still get to take mastery tests in the form of psychic powers. The only difference is he gets +1A for 2 ccw and gets an extra wound.

The big difference between old and new Chaos HQs is this:
Old ones had a lot more gear/gifts which were, for the most part, ignored in favor of a few no-brainer options. This gave the illusion of choice, as people either went with what was good or picked other gear/gifts to be characterful.

New HQs keep the good and common gifts, drop the cost and give you a couple options for weaponry. If you want to be characterful, you can still do so, just by modelling/background/army comp instead of a few quirky rules.

BA, DA, even Eldar had the same thing, just on different scales.

malisteen
30-11-2007, 16:30
Well, lets see here. I had two daemon princes under the old book. They were:

Lord, stature, flight, darkblade, Aura, 2x close combat weapon, personal icon

and

Lord, Stature, Flight, Resiliance, Aura, mutation, spikey bits, essence, mark undivided, dark blade, visage, furious charge, close combat weapon.


One was clearly a lesser daemon prince then the other, and this was represented in the size and elaborateness of the models. The smaller one went with my furies, looking similar to them, and would summon them to the field himself.

Now they are both "Daemon Prince with Wings" - no distinction between them. Even though I can finally use them both in the same battle, I have no desire to do so, since it feels weird to me to have two models of such different stature with the same rules, and the smaller one can't summon his furies anymore, anyway.

Preference: Old Book


Next up my Chaos leutennant - Mojo Jojo

Leutennant, mark undivided, Kai Gun, Power Weapon, spikey bits, aura, visage, bionics.

Now his stats are:

Sorcerer, darkblast

Simple, but not too shabby. I don't really prefer him one way or the other - they're both fine to me.


Another Chaos Leutenant

Old: Leutennant, power weapon, plasma pistol, aura, chaos armor, resiliance, spikey bits
New: Lord, Daemon Weapon, Plasma Pistol

This is a hulking model based on the Gamesday Archaon on Foot piece. I actually like his new stats better, even though the plasma pistol went from bad to worse. Unless the 5th ed rules make the plasma pistol more attractive as an option, I'll eventually be bits-swapping it for a bolter pistol. But that's not really a new problem, anyway.


So there's what happened to my HQs. One of my Daemon Princes I just don't use anymore (maybe he'll become a herald in the new daemon codex), the other is rather less impressive, and largely indistinguishable from any other daemon prince out there. One of my leutennants is now a sorcerer, despite not being a psyker at al in the old rules, but despite the extreme differences I like his new stats just fine. The other leutennant, generally used as my second HQ since he didn't have a daemon weapon, now actually has a daemon weapon (my only HQ who still has one!), and I actually like his new incarnation better.


Now that doesn't touch on my greater daemon - once a keeper of secrets and now not. Of course, apart from losing his psychic power, a keeper of secrets doesn't really change too much by becoming a new greater daemon. I miss the psychic power, but otherwise I don't mind. Of course, I was just using the Keeper rules via 'counts as', as my greater daemon wasn't really a keeper, anyway, so the fact that it's no longer specifically Slaaneshii aligned doesn't bother me as much as it might bother someone else.

jfrazell
30-11-2007, 16:39
Yep, all we have now is a 2W Chaplain, a 2W Librarian, a 3W Master, or special characters. DA/BA seem to be doing fine with that.

Now, as for an ether lance:

Chaos Sorceror with force weapon, bolt pistol, Wind of Chaos. He gets a nifty ether lance counting as WoC and a FW, and you even still get to take mastery tests in the form of psychic powers. The only difference is he gets +1A for 2 ccw and gets an extra wound.

The big difference between old and new Chaos HQs is this:
Old ones had a lot more gear/gifts which were, for the most part, ignored in favor of a few no-brainer options. This gave the illusion of choice, as people either went with what was good or picked other gear/gifts to be characterful.

New HQs keep the good and common gifts, drop the cost and give you a couple options for weaponry. If you want to be characterful, you can still do so, just by modelling/background/army comp instead of a few quirky rules.

BA, DA, even Eldar had the same thing, just on different scales.


Psychic powers can be nullified. My nifty flamer could not be nullified.

Plus that whole there are no LTs any more thing rears it ugly head. I have to buy a more expensive Lord. So again, there is no direct comparable option.

Skyth
30-11-2007, 16:42
Yep, all we have now is a 2W Chaplain, a 2W Librarian, a 3W Master, or special characters. DA/BA seem to be doing fine with that.


DA's have a 2 and 3 wound chappie without using special characters.



New HQs keep the good and common gifts, drop the cost

Patently false. Especially for non-statured Lords.

Let's have a list of all the commonly used gifts.

Resilience (Possible, but went up 5 points)
Strength (Only possible for undivided that take an expensive daemon weapon with huge drawbacks)
Speed (Gone)
Mutation (Gone-Mark of Khorne may be a replacement, but in the old codex, you could have both MoK and Mutation)
Stature (Still possible)
Flight (Still possible)
Armor (Does not exist)
Aura (Built in)
Rune (Combined with Stature where it isn't as useful)
Visage (Gone)
Daemonic Steed (Still there)
Dark Blade (Gone)
Accursed Crozius (Only Tzeentch marked)
Glaive (Gone)
Dread Axe (Gone)
Axe of Khorne (Gone)
Feel No Pain (Gone)
Manreaper (Everyone gets)
Combat Drugs (Gone)

Note-You had huge variety in the old codex of commonly used gifts that no one lord could have. You had the option of making a tooled up prince (Statured or otherwise) or a cheapo Lord/Lt. I've seen HQ's ALL over the spectrum, and all of them useful.

The 'only the same tooled-up lords' is another case of 'If you tell a lie often enough and loud enough, people start to believe it's the truth.'

Chrismage
30-11-2007, 16:49
The big difference between old and new Chaos HQs is this:
Old ones had a lot more gear/gifts which were, for the most part, ignored in favor of a few no-brainer options. This gave the illusion of choice, as people either went with what was good or picked other gear/gifts to be characterful.

Now they're not even willing to give us the illusion. That's not a good thing.

And yes, people either take the good stuff or mix it up for fluff. Every army does that; either building something for power or fluff. It's a part of making an army list and it doesn't really help anything here.

Also, how can it be an illusion when people actually get to choose between power and fluff? ;)


New HQs keep the good and common gifts, drop the cost and give you a couple options for weaponry. If you want to be characterful, you can still do so, just by modelling/background/army comp instead of a few quirky rules.

Daemon Princes got no options for Weaponry and Chaos Lords and Sorcerors didn't get to keep their good and common gifts outside of Aura. It'd be fine if they gave us options for those things(or at least the illusion of it :rolleyes:), but no. Every Daemon Prince is exactly the same, Chaos Lords and Sorcerors are Space Marine characters in Chaos wrapping paper, and it's apparently a good thing.

Fixer
30-11-2007, 17:00
Heh. I saw one Daemon prince that was different from the Standard issue Daemon Prince with Standard Issue Daemon axe. That was the World Eaters standard issue Beserker Glaive daemon prince.

Certainly people spoke of using different daemon weapons, but I never actually saw them. Once at a Mayhem tournament I took a look at my opponent's army list and spoke out loud 'oh wow, Daemon prince without the dreadaxe' only a catch myself a few moments later and see that he had simply written 'dread sword' instead...

Anyhow, the change in the 'ol Daemon prince and Chaos lord rules does make some interesting alterations to the style of play with the models you are using. The Daemon prince as a character is effective at taking on tough high strength models and hidden powerfist units with support. He's a dread killer and a unit killer with the choice of psychic powers as well. The Chaos lord is a killing machine. High output of attacks and high WS makes him good at laying the hurt on characters, but still vulnerable to hidden PFs and instakill weapons.

Used to be that everyone would just take the DP for a catch-all main character for just killing everything. Now there's a reason for getting a lord or sorcerer other than using him for some silly first turn all-or-nothing infiltration charge.

Xenocidal Maniac
30-11-2007, 17:17
Haha. I am noticing that all the people complaining most bitterly about the new dex are all taking MoS Princes or Lords with the Lash. :cheese:

I'm glad you guys got nerfed.

Chrismage
30-11-2007, 17:26
Used to be that everyone would just take the DP for a catch-all main character for just killing everything. Now there's a reason for getting a lord or sorcerer other than using him for some silly first turn all-or-nothing infiltration charge.

That's all well and good, but it does nothing to explain why the Prince got no customizability at all - not even to a "reasonable" extent - or why the Chaos Lord and Sorceror(can we get an abbreviation for these guys?) actually got worse. Fewer options, Daemon Weapons just as likely to cripple you as anyone else, the works.


Haha. I am noticing that all the people complaining most bitterly about the new dex are all taking MoS Princes or Lords with the Lash. :cheese:

I'm glad you guys got nerfed.

Well, when it's all you got... :p

EVIL INC
30-11-2007, 17:38
lol. You see people complaining now that they "HAVE" to take a second more expensive lord or sorcerer in order to get the second non- dp character. Woo Hoo, you say that like its a bad thing. These are most likely the exact same people who complained in the older version that the second powerfull non-dp character was too weak and they would rather have two lords to tool up.
It has been established that the new is better then the old by every standard except wargear choices and even now, the variety is still more then enough to allow players to field what they want and need. The other weapons that are not there are easily represented by either mixing weapon combos that are available and using counts as (because it has the same effect and the only difference is cosmetic) or available weapon combos added to natural upgrades built into the character model itself.

Skyth
30-11-2007, 17:40
Haha. I am noticing that all the people complaining most bitterly about the new dex are all taking MoS Princes or Lords with the Lash. :cheese:

I'm glad you guys got nerfed.

Because of course, you have the only correct way to have fun.

Skyth
30-11-2007, 17:43
lol. You see people complaining now that they "HAVE" to take a second more expensive lord or sorcerer in order to get the second non- dp character. Woo Hoo, you say that like its a bad thing. These are most likely the exact same people who complained in the older version that the second powerfull non-dp character was too weak and they would rather have two lords to tool up.

You know, I've used a Lord by himself, a Lord and Lt, 2 Lt's and a Lt just by himself depending on what I wanted to field. Two lords (Or two Daemon Princes) just doesn't make sense with the way a Chaos army works.


It has been established that the new is better then the old by every standard except wargear choices

If you tell a lie often enough and loud enough, people start to believe it's the truth...


using counts as

As so as your argument relies on 'use counts as', it just proves that you have no argument.

EVIL INC
30-11-2007, 18:03
(1.) You know, I've used a Lord by himself, a Lord and Lt, 2 Lt's and a Lt just by himself depending on what I wanted to field. Two lords (Or two Daemon Princes) just doesn't make sense with the way a Chaos army works.


(2.)If you tell a lie often enough and loud enough, people start to believe it's the truth...



(3.)As so as your argument relies on 'use counts as', it just proves that you have no argument.
1. Using YOUR personal vision of chaos that might be the case. Using someone elses, that might not be the case. Dont assume that yours is the final word on what others have to personally believe in. Personaly myself, I can easily see 2 strong and powerfull leaders competing for control of a warband or racing to see who can gain the status of daemon prince first. I can also see 2 chaos forces working together as one with neither of the leaders being willing to "step down" and relinquish sole leadership to another. I can also yet again see someone not always filling up both command sections of the army list.
2. By all means keep repeating yourself and maybe someone will actually believe you. You might even start to believe it yourself. In my case, I am repeating the findings that are being posted. If you disagree with them by all means continue to do so.:p
3. Counts as matters not. For example, if you have a flamer weapon and you have a weapon that acts exactly like a flamer, it matters not how you model it the effect is the same in the game itself. You can greenstuff flames coming out of the model's mouth and say he breathes fire. The effect is the same. If you have something against players using thier imagination to make thier characters uniuque or against players building up a background and history for thier army, dont try to force others to model them to your personal whims or customize thier army's fluff to your personal whim. Thats what YOUR army is for. So, "counts as" is a perfectly legitimate argument but as we have seen, no argument is needed.
I say, just learn to play with an actual fluffy colorfull and balenced army list without having to rely on the one trick pony uber-lords/princes-o-doom or switch to an army that still lets you play "herohammer".

jfrazell
30-11-2007, 18:14
Haha. I am noticing that all the people complaining most bitterly about the new dex are all taking MoS Princes or Lords with the Lash. :cheese:

I'm glad you guys got nerfed.

1. You misrepresent. Not nerfed. The Lash and mix and match tac squads make it quite powerful.

2. I'm not taking MOS with lash. I'm not playing chaos any more.

3. "I'm glad you guys got nerfed," is not conducive to a polite discussion. I could respond "I hope when walking to play a game you drop your boxes and all your minis are destroyed," but that would be impolite and not worthy of this discussion.

Chrismage
30-11-2007, 18:40
I say, just learn to play with an actual fluffy colorfull and balenced army list without having to rely on the one trick pony uber-lords/princes-o-doom or switch to an army that still lets you play "herohammer".

So what do you do when your fluff gets disallowed by the new rules? Do you pretend it never happened or do you get new fluff? How colorful and fluffy is it to have to change your army's heart and soul every time the rules change?

Skyth
30-11-2007, 18:42
2. By all means keep repeating yourself and maybe someone will actually believe you. You might even start to believe it yourself. In my case, I am repeating the findings that are being posted. If you disagree with them by all means continue to do so.:p

Findings that are very much in dispute...It hasn't been established at all. Better at limiting the list and what is played...Sure. Better at producing a variety lists...Not even close. Better at being balanced...Even farther from the truth.


I say, just learn to play with an actual fluffy colorfull and balenced army list without having to rely on the one trick pony uber-lords/princes-o-doom or switch to an army that still lets you play "herohammer".


And follow up with the 'my way is the only correct way to have fun' argument...How nice. And 'Counts-as' is still a bunk argument.

EVIL INC
30-11-2007, 18:54
So what do you do when your fluff gets disallowed by the new rules? Do you pretend it never happened or do you get new fluff? How colorful and fluffy is it to have to change your army's heart and soul every time the rules change?

I HAVE undergone that. I started playing in the days of Rogue Trader and have had my fluff disallowed and totally changed from edition to edition. I have learned to adapt to each new version as it came out and I willcontinue to do so as more come out. I take the game as an evolving hobby that undergoes change and I learn to play within the limits of each just as will continue to do in future versions. I find it frustrating to see people who have only played a particuler version or who just prefer a particuler version get mad and go on long tirades/pages long threads explaining why they prefer thier own version and why they decry the "new one". Sometimes, I just want to say "stuff happens, get over it and play or dont and dont play, stop bothiering us because we have gone through it to and your views are not unique." But I HAVE gone through it so I understand. We can bicker back and forth till the cows come home and itwont change anything much less each other's minds. Why not just agree to disagree and play the game. Youll find that stuff eventually grows on you and hell, next change, you might be looking on the current one as the "good old days" You might not but you never know. :)

Skyth, constant trolling will get you nowhere. Take my advice earlier in this thread, it will get you further along.Constantly putting your personal opinions out as facts do not actually make them facts. They remain your personal opinions and like I said earlier, just as I will not convince you to believe my opinions, neither will constantly putting yours at me convince me to have your opinions. I agree to disagree with you and I will continue to play the game to have fun. Spend less time fighting and arguing and more playing to have fun. You'll be a lotfurther ahead.

Grazzy
30-11-2007, 19:01
And 'Counts-as' is still a bunk argument.

I find that true too. I dont care if in the new marine codex i can count my old chaplain with two LC's as a commander so i can still use him, i want a chappie with two LC's!!!

Omniassiah
30-11-2007, 19:01
DA's have a 2 and 3 wound chappie without using special characters.



Patently false. Especially for non-statured Lords.

Let's have a list of all the commonly used gifts.

Resilience (Possible, but went up 5 points)
Strength (Only possible for undivided that take an expensive daemon weapon with huge drawbacks)
Speed (Gone)
Mutation (Gone-Mark of Khorne may be a replacement, but in the old codex, you could have both MoK and Mutation)
Stature (Still possible)
Flight (Still possible)
Armor (Does not exist)
Aura (Built in)
Rune (Combined with Stature where it isn't as useful)
Visage (Gone)
Daemonic Steed (Still there)
Dark Blade (Gone)
Accursed Crozius (Only Tzeentch marked)
Glaive (Gone)
Dread Axe (Gone)
Axe of Khorne (Gone)
Feel No Pain (Gone)
Manreaper (Everyone gets)
Combat Drugs (Gone)

Note-You had huge variety in the old codex of commonly used gifts that no one lord could have. You had the option of making a tooled up prince (Statured or otherwise) or a cheapo Lord/Lt. I've seen HQ's ALL over the spectrum, and all of them useful.

The 'only the same tooled-up lords' is another case of 'If you tell a lie often enough and loud enough, people start to believe it's the truth.'

The 30minute pre-game versus Chaos lets figure out if your cheating your ass off/don't know your rules/prevent random Chaos gifts as need per situation phase - gone

Yes I have seen multiple combinations of wargear and gifts on lords. half of them couldn't be used together or violated some other rule. Most of the Gifts were forgotten, not used, missed used, and generally made playing against a chaos player not fun. I ranked the old Chaos Codex up there with the old Calc'nid mutation lists. When you have to consider requiring a certain army to send their list in up to a week before the tournament so you can figure out after referencing 6 pages whether or not the list is even legal. Then the loss of massive combinations of wargear gift was a good thing. Add into it the fact that I saw at least 30 Chaos armies in the tournaments I ran and 1 of them had WYSISWG HQ choices. Regardless of the Power issues of the List, the new Chaos codex IS an improvement to the Hobby overall for all players regardless of whether or not they play chaos.

Calden
30-11-2007, 19:05
I'm suprised I've not seen any mounted Slaaneshi Lords/Sorcerers myself. Daemonic Speed seemed to be really popular under the old codex, or was it just the combination with Infiltrate that made it worthwhile?

Still, if I ever get around to doing a Slaaneshi army, I REALLY like the idea of a mounted Shaaneshi Lord with Blissgiver. Seems pretty cool in my eyes :D

Eldanar
30-11-2007, 19:06
I used a tooled up Korne DP and a Thirster before.

Now I take a Khorne DP and a Tzeentch DP.

They are about as equally effective; and I have found the current versions to be slightly more duarble due to not being able to be ID'd with S10, and the fact that they are now scoring units. So, I actually like the current version better, although they did lose some flavor.

Imperialis_Dominatus
30-11-2007, 19:24
Former: Daemon Prince with Speed, Lightning Claws, MoCU, and several other gifts including Spiky Bits.

Now: Chaos Lord with Wings, Lightning Claws, and MoT.

Skyth
30-11-2007, 19:32
Skyth, constant trolling will get you nowhere.

You're doing the trolling...I'm not the one convinced that my way is the only right way of having fun...


Take my advice earlier in this thread, it will get you further along.Constantly putting your personal opinions out as facts do not actually make them facts.

Take your own advice. No where was it established that the new codex is better in every way than the old one...

Skyth
30-11-2007, 19:38
The 30minute pre-game versus Chaos lets figure out if your cheating your ass off/don't know your rules/prevent random Chaos gifts as need per situation phase - gone

And what about various marine players (Or any other army) who miscost thier list in thier favor...It happens in all lists.


Add into it the fact that I saw at least 30 Chaos armies in the tournaments I ran and 1 of them had WYSISWG HQ choices. I always play WYSIWYG except on very small items. But then again, what army does play completely WYSIWYG? How many of the Marine players model terminator honors on thier vet sgts? I know for a fact you don't model venom sacs or adrenal glands on your hormogaunts...A little hypocritical to single out Chaos for WYSIWYG violations in tournaments.[/QUOTE]

AdmiralDick
30-11-2007, 19:51
okay guys, let keep it friendly. if you are looking for ways of representing an older HQ choice in the new codex feel free to ask, and if you want to suggest alternative please do. but if you want to argue stuff over, this probably isn't the thread to do so, as it just takes it off topic.

we're really concerning ourselves with the reality of the situation (to which, realistically, each poster can only add their own decisions). each player is of course entitled to enjoy the game as they see fit, and to make their own choices. so lets not be jumping on anyone just because we don't think it sounds like fun.

its cool to see so many posts already though. a bit early too draw conclusions yet, still its looks quite varied so far.

i personally used to take:

Chaos Lord - MoS, Dark Blade, CCW, Steed of Slaanesh, Personal Icon, Melta Bombs, Rune, Strength and Aura.

*i would also take a Champion (refuse to call it a Lieutenant) who would vary a little more but would usually be nothing more than the basic man with a power weapon for a little extra kick in a unit.

now:

well... acutally i don't really play much with the new codex. its rather put me off playing full stop. i have played with it but not enough to say that i take any particular set up for my HQ choices. i guess if i had to settle down though it would be something like:

Chaos Lord - MoS, Blissgiver, Steed of Slaanesh, Personal Icon, Melta Bombs.

but its not quite the same thing. (not far of though).

Galaspar
30-11-2007, 19:53
Let me see...

Old Daemon Prince, Daemonic Stature, Daemonic Aura, Daemonic Essence, Mark of Nurgle, Daemonic Strength, Frag Grenades, 2X CCW, Daemonic Speed =143pts

New Daemon Prince: Mark of Nurgle, Wings, Doombolt =160pts

That's the first time I've looked back at my old prince's kit since I switched to the new book, and there's very little change - the strength, essence and aura no-brainer add-ons are all included in the new guy's stats, as is the extra attack the weapons gave him. The loss of speed caused me to model a winged prince instead - no great loss, new model was great fun to make, and it's obvious what he can do (people tended to be taken aback by a huge, bloated abomination that Fleeted). New prince gives me more speed, a useful, accurate AP3 shooting attack and a higher WS for a 17 point increase. I liked the old DP, but I'm pretty sure I like the new one more.

EVIL INC
30-11-2007, 20:50
Yes, this thread is not about who is "right" or who is "wrong" it is about finding opinions.
Please leave the trolling out as well as the false accusations and claims (no need to point fingers as he has already made his presense known in several of these threads already LOL). Keep it to simple facts and opinions. Kindly dont get the 2 confused and consider your opinions facts.

Chrismage
30-11-2007, 20:56
So Evil, when you gonna back up the claim that the new stuff is better? Just curious is all - you've done a good job dancing around it so far.

Xenocidal Maniac
30-11-2007, 21:08
2. I'm not taking MOS with lash. I'm not playing chaos any more.


Even better. Pack up your toys and go home.

The new Chaos dex actually inspired me to start Chaos. Painting some berserkers right now.

EVIL INC
30-11-2007, 21:09
"In my humble opinion", the new dex is better in several areas and worse in others. "In my humble opinion", the "better" outweigh the "worse". This is what I have been saying. Apparantly reading through the thread, the majority of posters here have pretty much the same opinion. Just as in my own case, that is THIER opinion and does not mean that it is any "better" or "worse" then anyone elses.
When are YOU going to stop dancing around the issue and prove to us that your "opinion" is the end all, be all that GW should follow because it is perfect?
In my "opinion", GW is not going to cater to your personal whims in the matter of exactly what to do with chaos any more then they will follow my own. It is THIER company and thus THIR decision to make. In my "opinion", we all need to learn to adapt and grow and learn to play each new "version" as they come out rather then whinging about them in hopes they will undo it. I have been through chaos changes since Rogue Trader and have learned to do so each time. We "older" players had to do that, there is nothing saying that the "newer" ones are any better then we were and should not have to do the same "maturing", "growing" and "learning" that we did.

Chrismage
30-11-2007, 21:13
"In my humble opinion", the new dex is better in several areas and worse in others. "In my humble opinion", the "better" outweigh the "worse". This is what I have been saying. Apparantly reading through the thread, the majority of posters here have pretty much the same opinion. Just as in my own case, that is THIER opinion and does not mean that it is any "better" or "worse" then anyone elses.
When are you going to stop dancing around the issue and prove to us that your "opinion" is the end all, be all that GW should follow because it is perfect?
In my "opinion", GW is not going to cater to your personal whims in the matter of exactly what to do with chaos any more then they will follow my own. It is THIER company and thus THIR decision to make. In my "opinion", we all need to learn to adapt and grow and learn to play each new "version" as they come out rather then whinging about them in hopes they will undo it. I have been through chaos changes since Rogue Trader and have learned to do so each time. We "older" players had to do that, there is nothing saying that the "newer" ones are any better then we were and should not have to do the same "maturing", "growing" and "learning" that we did.

Now now, Evil, calm down. I'm just saying that I never tried to sell my opinion as established fact.


lol. You see people complaining now that they "HAVE" to take a second more expensive lord or sorcerer in order to get the second non- dp character. Woo Hoo, you say that like its a bad thing. These are most likely the exact same people who complained in the older version that the second powerfull non-dp character was too weak and they would rather have two lords to tool up.
It has been established that the new is better then the old by every standard except wargear choices and even now, the variety is still more then enough to allow players to field what they want and need. The other weapons that are not there are easily represented by either mixing weapon combos that are available and using counts as (because it has the same effect and the only difference is cosmetic) or available weapon combos added to natural upgrades built into the character model itself.

I'm only asking you to back that up. I'm actually quite interested in hearing how fewer options is better for an army.

EVIL INC
30-11-2007, 21:17
Read through the thread(s). Ample evidence is provided throughout. I will then repeat myself...
""In my humble opinion", the new dex is better in several areas and worse in others. "In my humble opinion", the "better" outweigh the "worse". This is what I have been saying. Apparantly reading through the thread, the majority of posters here have pretty much the same opinion. Just as in my own case, that is THIER opinion and does not mean that it is any "better" or "worse" then anyone elses.
When are YOU going to stop dancing around the issue and prove to us that your "opinion" is the end all, be all that GW should follow because it is perfect?
In my "opinion", GW is not going to cater to your personal whims in the matter of exactly what to do with chaos any more then they will follow my own. It is THIER company and thus THIR decision to make. In my "opinion", we all need to learn to adapt and grow and learn to play each new "version" as they come out rather then whinging about them in hopes they will undo it. I have been through chaos changes since Rogue Trader and have learned to do so each time. We "older" players had to do that, there is nothing saying that the "newer" ones are any better then we were and should not have to do the same "maturing", "growing" and "learning" that we did. "

If you wish to consistantly spam the thread up, please do not as we have already been through this it seems a thousand times. Kindly use pm if you wish to continue to stay off track of what this thread is about.

Chrismage
30-11-2007, 21:47
Read through the thread(s). Ample evidence is provided throughout. I will then repeat myself...

Fair enough, I was hoping to ask you for specifics, but I guess they're not forthcoming.


""In my humble opinion", the new dex is better in several areas and worse in others. "In my humble opinion", the "better" outweigh the "worse". This is what I have been saying. Apparantly reading through the thread, the majority of posters here have pretty much the same opinion. Just as in my own case, that is THIER opinion and does not mean that it is any "better" or "worse" then anyone elses.

When are YOU going to stop dancing around the issue and prove to us that your "opinion" is the end all, be all that GW should follow because it is perfect?

Simply put, I won't and I can't, but I can tell you why I think the things I do and I can try to back that up. That's how a discussion works.

So I'll do exactly that. Right now.

First off, in my humble opinion, the HQ section of the New Chaos Codex is lacking. Here's why.

The Daemon Prince, once the most mutable of all the Chaos units, has three options. Three. One's a no-brainer(Wings) and one is best off being dictated by the background of your army(Mark). That leaves one option that you get to play with. In my opinion this is a bad thing.

The Chaos Lord's options boil down to Gun/Sword/Termy/Movement Mode. Of his options, only the Daemon Weapon, the Mark, and the Steed are unique to Chaos. The Daemonic Gifts that were present in the old Codex are gone, even though they're mentioned frequently in the fluff throughout the book. The Chaos Lord was also one of the most mutable options in the old Codex, and now he has only three options to separate him from a Space Marine HQ choice. In my opinion this is a bad thing.

The Sorceror is, in my opinion, actually much improved, but it still suffers from the lack of Daemonic Gifts that were in the old Codex. Also, its choices boil down to Power/Mark/Plasma Pistol/Termy Armor/Movement Mode. Also, for some reason, Sorcerors aren't fearless. Between the improvement, the limited options, and the fearless thing, it is my opinion that Sorcerors are okay.

That's two lacking units - in my opinion - and one okay unit - also in my opinion. That means, in my opinion, that Chaos' HQ section is lacking, and I'll gladly let you dispute that.

==Me==
30-11-2007, 21:58
Settle down now, I actually like this thread and want to see it continue. People are obviously quite passionate about this, but that doesn't meant we can't be a bit more civil, eh?

Now, as I said before, I feel the only real difference between the old and current Chaos HQs is the loss of the 2 wounders and trimming the fat in the form of all the gifts/wargear that never saw much use or were just filler. Stuff like daemonic venom and fire.

The concept of daemon weapons being named never made much sense to ==Me==, how many Dread Axes did they make? I prefer the current DWs as they represent the fickle nature of the Chaos (dice) gods and the gifts they bestow upon their champions.

Hell, I could probably re-do the various daemon weapons to fit the new Codex.
Dark Blade-This was one of the more common weapons out there, especially combined with stature and strength for insta-killing nastiness. I won't miss it, but if you really want it, use an undivided DW or force weapon (still insta-splats marine HQs) or even LCs to represent its exceptional killing power. Nothing really equals its power, which I think is a good thing.
Dread Axe-Another nasty weapon whose departure I do not lament. Use a DW or LCs, but it's power could not be transferred.
Ether Lance-Force or Power Weapon and WoC or combi-flamer. The powers can be cancelled, but that could represent the Librarian/Farseer with training against daemons, and how often will a Ld10 power be cancelled?
Kai Gun-Tzeentch daemon weapon or Doom Bolt. Welcome back shooty Lord.
Manreaper-Nurgle DW
Pandemic Staff-Nurgle's Rot, Nurgle DW
Lash of Torment-Blissgiver, LCs
Needle of Desire-I doubt anybody remembers this gem:p. Blissgiver.
Berzerker Glaive-Bloodfeeder (you may even get *more* attacks)

I don't even remember the rest, never saw anything beyond Dark Blade, Dread Axe, and the Glaive.

The current Codex kept the majority of the "competitive" builds of Chaos lords, Sorcs, and DPs that fit with the book as well as adding some stuff (powers, new DWs).

People who miss their fluffy but ineffective builds are typically the creative type. So I really see no issue with using a little creative modelling and counts-as to keep the fluffy lords. Fluffy play is generally seen as voluntary restrictions, so I really don't understand any problems with that.

So, I like the new Codex and don't miss the old. Some options changed, some got lost, but ultimately I prefer the new setup. It is much easier on non-Chaos players (I too hated the pre-game "this DP can't possible be legal" phase :p), new players in general, and still keeps the majority of the "bite" in the Chaos HQs. ==My== DA would kill for HQs this tough.

silashand
30-11-2007, 22:00
FWIW, I agree completely with Chrismage on the HQ choices (if you can call them that). They have a paltry selection and realistically once you choose a mark (or none at all) you have nothing much left to do. I simply cannot see how people think this is such a good thing. I much prefer to be able to customize my characters and units a bit more than that, even if doing so ends up with a more expensive build or one that may actually be less optimized because I happen to like it that way (probably why I prefer WFB most of the time). This genericizing of all the codices just doesn't do it for me.

Oh well...

Cheers, Gary

AdmiralDick
30-11-2007, 22:00
Yes, this thread is not about who is "right" or who is "wrong" it is about finding opinions.
Please leave the trolling out as well as the false accusations and claims (no need to point fingers as he has already made his presense known in several of these threads already LOL). Keep it to simple facts and opinions. Kindly dont get the 2 confused and consider your opinions facts.

EVIL INC, you hardly have clean hands in this matter.


Actually the LT that is gone is now replaced by a much better option.

...in your opinion.

now, everyone, can we put aside arguments for more than two posts?

EVIL INC
30-11-2007, 22:22
The command units have built in almost each and every one of the gifts that were in the previous codex that people actually used. There might have been a few rare players who deviated from those but those were rare. I have also expressed a feeling that I would like more options available to them but that is irrelevant as they have the ones I actually took already built in. The addition of more "wargear" options would only make for purely cosmetic changes to what was taken previously and what is taken now without any effect on the game. What is wrong is that with the previous codex many players (obviously it seems from reading through this thread) relied on those to make thier characters different from those used by others. In playing other chaos players though, they saw that thier characters were exactly like every other one played by everyone else. What they needed to do to make thier characters unique was to put a little effort into painting and converting thier characters as well as giving them a decent background and storyline. This is because the plethora of "wargear" obviously did not make thier characters unique at all. Adding page after page of wargear that players do not ever use to the new codex will do no more to make the characters unique then it did before.
So, the ones people now take are not any different then what they took before so are no "better" or "worse" then they were before as they end up being the exact same anyways. The only differences are that the DP is lower priced for what was taken anyways and the LT is actually better as you dont have to settle for the weak version but instead get the better one with the extra wound.

jfrazell
30-11-2007, 22:28
Settle down now, I actually like this thread and want to see it continue. People are obviously quite passionate about this, but that doesn't meant we can't be a bit more civil, eh?

Now, as I said before, I feel the only real difference between the old and current Chaos HQs is the loss of the 2 wounders and trimming the fat in the form of all the gifts/wargear that never saw much use or were just filler. Stuff like daemonic venom and fire.

The concept of daemon weapons being named never made much sense to ==Me==, how many Dread Axes did they make? I prefer the current DWs as they represent the fickle nature of the Chaos (dice) gods and the gifts they bestow upon their champions.

Hell, I could probably re-do the various daemon weapons to fit the new Codex.
Dark Blade-This was one of the more common weapons out there, especially combined with stature and strength for insta-killing nastiness. I won't miss it, but if you really want it, use an undivided DW or force weapon (still insta-splats marine HQs) or even LCs to represent its exceptional killing power. Nothing really equals its power, which I think is a good thing.
Dread Axe-Another nasty weapon whose departure I do not lament. Use a DW or LCs, but it's power could not be transferred.
Ether Lance-Force or Power Weapon and WoC or combi-flamer. The powers can be cancelled, but that could represent the Librarian/Farseer with training against daemons, and how often will a Ld10 power be cancelled?
Kai Gun-Tzeentch daemon weapon or Doom Bolt. Welcome back shooty Lord.
Manreaper-Nurgle DW
Pandemic Staff-Nurgle's Rot, Nurgle DW
Lash of Torment-Blissgiver, LCs
Needle of Desire-I doubt anybody remembers this gem:p. Blissgiver.
Berzerker Glaive-Bloodfeeder (you may even get *more* attacks)

I don't even remember the rest, never saw anything beyond Dark Blade, Dread Axe, and the Glaive.

The current Codex kept the majority of the "competitive" builds of Chaos lords, Sorcs, and DPs that fit with the book as well as adding some stuff (powers, new DWs).

People who miss their fluffy but ineffective builds are typically the creative type. So I really see no issue with using a little creative modelling and counts-as to keep the fluffy lords. Fluffy play is generally seen as voluntary restrictions, so I really don't understand any problems with that.

So, I like the new Codex and don't miss the old. Some options changed, some got lost, but ultimately I prefer the new setup. It is much easier on non-Chaos players (I too hated the pre-game "this DP can't possible be legal" phase :p), new players in general, and still keeps the majority of the "bite" in the Chaos HQs. ==My== DA would kill for HQs this tough.

Interesting concepts there ==Me==

Imperialis_Dominatus
30-11-2007, 23:18
And 'Counts-as' is still a bunk argument.

Speaking of supporting your arguments, I've seen none for this one. I believe somewhat in counts-as; however, I'm willing to hear the other side out... unlike, it seems, all of Warseer. Tell me.

As for the loss of the Lieutenant, perhaps statwise they are equal but one has the dominating personality and assumes control over the rest of the army, while the other plots the former's demise. Easy. Seems to me anyway.

Skyth
01-12-2007, 00:37
Yes, this thread is not about who is "right" or who is "wrong" it is about finding opinions.
Please leave the trolling out as well as the false accusations and claims (no need to point fingers as he has already made his presense known in several of these threads already LOL). Keep it to simple facts and opinions. Kindly dont get the 2 confused and consider your opinions facts.

I love how not agreeing with you is considered 'trolling'.

Skyth
01-12-2007, 00:41
The command units have built in almost each and every one of the gifts that were in the previous codex that people actually used.

Patently untrue, and I demonstrated that.


What is wrong is that with the previous codex many players (obviously it seems from reading through this thread) relied on those to make thier characters different from those used by others. In playing other chaos players though, they saw that thier characters were exactly like every other one played by everyone else.



Are you actually reading the thread? None of the listed daemon princes were the same here.

AdmiralDick
01-12-2007, 01:31
i'll take that as a no then.

oh well, can't blame a guy for trying. perhaps it would just be better if this thread was closed.

EVIL INC
01-12-2007, 01:35
Actually Admiral, you are probobly right. I am trying to put forth exact reasons and fully explaining them backed up with data but it seems to only bring more trolling rather then any actual reasons or data in return.
If nothing else admiral and the rest of you, it has been good discussing the topic with you even though we disagree on certain issues. At least we were able to speak of them without the hooplah. Hopefully, soon we can get a clean thread where our discussions will not be interupted. :)

AdmiralDick
01-12-2007, 01:49
to be honest EVIL INC it took a while to sort the wheat from the chaff in other threads but when we finally got there there was some very constructive debate going on.

i really started this thread as an alternative. something of a conversation piece in other threads. if someone made a claim about how 'everyone who takes a new HQ choice simply takes a cookie cutter' or 'everyone who takes an old HQ choice is either cheating or a powergamer', then we would have some frame of reference to discuss such veiws on.

sadly, it seems people are far more concerned with shouting one another down than actually finding out the facts. we had a paultry 13 genuine posts about HQ choices out of 64 (including this one). not really enough to draw any meaningful discussion from.

and i'm particularly disappointed with the goading going on on both sides of this, EVIL INC.

EVIL INC
01-12-2007, 02:05
Well, In my case, I apologize. I really should not have put forth my views on the matter of command squads or explained why I felt the way I do about the matter of command squads and my opinions on how good or bad both books have them. Your right, I put those forth in other threads so should not have cluttered this one up with them.

TheMav80
01-12-2007, 02:40
I don't play Chaos meself. I have a regular opponent who does though.

I can sort of see the side of those missing all their options. It would be nice to have tons of options to build your character exactly how you envision him/her. It really would. But in gameplay terms (especially with this tourney mind set so prevelent) it isn't very practical.

That said, looking over the new options, I'm not sure how you can be all THAT upset. Yes things were lost, but the HQs Chaos has now are just so great I can't really see why you would care in the grand scheme of things.

Not to mention the, imo, fantastic Special Characters. And you get 6 of them! My Tau get half as many and one is the Space Pope. :p

I know some don't like Special Characters in general so it might not matter as much to others.

Chrismage
01-12-2007, 04:24
Well, In my case, I apologize. I really should not have put forth my views on the matter of command squads or explained why I felt the way I do about the matter of command squads and my opinions on how good or bad both books have them. Your right, I put those forth in other threads so should not have cluttered this one up with them.

That's actually the point of this thread: to get opinions out there on what people think about the new and old HQ choices. No one's gonna blame you for getting your thoughts out there, but disagreeing with you isn't trolling. Disagreement continues the discussion.

jhon
01-12-2007, 04:25
Old codex : litu with deamon telon , moK and deamonic fire - 65 pts
prince with mon , mutation , deamon vemon , speed , essence and rot - 145pts

New codex : psker with mos , wings , LoS 150pts
prince with mon , wings , rot 135pts

differance : the old litu is a nasty walker killer , and the new psker is a horde killer .
the old prince is a good blocker , monster killer , horder killer , and a tank hunter , and the new prince is a good blocker and a good horde killer but is 10 pts cheaper .

things i miss : dread axe , all of the deamonic gift , legion rules ,and spiky bits
thing better stay in the past : vet skill , dark blade , FNP prince with four plus save , siren minor psychic power .

for those of you bitxhing and crying about how chessessss choas is please look at the the DE 10 fast flyer arm dark lance of death and wych lork with a 2 + ive save and 7 attack which always wound on 4+ combo . specially after they boost up the power of skimer this combo is even more power housing ...

Captain Brown
01-12-2007, 04:38
Closed at the request of the thread starter.

Captain Brown
WarSeer Inquisition