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Xzazzarai
30-11-2007, 14:43
What's the best mount for a High Elf Prince?
I'm thinking of either a Star Dragon (doesn't cost any more hero-choices just cuz you take the best dragon, so why not? ^^)
Or, if you want to save the Hero-slor for a mage or a noble, you could put him on a Griffon. It's a pretty strong mount, but weaker than all of the dragons due to the lack of armour and Lower toughness.
So, do you think that a Griffon is to weak and will just be blasted down from the skies with missilefire, or is it a viable mount?
What do you think?

Red_Duke
30-11-2007, 14:45
or you could mount him on an Elven steed, and have an army to go with him ;)

Star Dragon is nice and all, but a total warmachine magnet. And when the whole thing comes in at over the 600pts mark, its not exactly expendable either...

Xzazzarai
30-11-2007, 14:49
I know all warmachines will target him, unless you hide him behind something... really BIG! ^^

And no, I don't want my cool Prince to be on a sissy steed. That destroys his image ^^

Stella Cadente
30-11-2007, 14:52
star dragon is nice...but VERY pts heavy, and costs an extra hero slot too, a griffon though could be a good in-between measure, can still fly, still has a good punch to it
or a cheaper dragon

Xzazzarai
30-11-2007, 14:57
A cheaper dragon still uses a hero slot, and will be targeted by all artillery available. So if I'm gonna take a dragon, I think it's best to toughen it up as much as possible. Aka: A star Dragon.
But it's a load of points,ca 600. A Griffon (with the same Prince) will be at approx 450.

ObiWan
30-11-2007, 14:59
You seem pretty set on that. So, tell us, what else would you use and how?

Xzazzarai
30-11-2007, 15:10
Well, I haven't built my army yet, but at 2250 pts, it will look something like this.

Characters:
Prince on Stardragon with lots of defensive items.

2x lvl 2 mages.
Some items

Core.
Either 2x 15 Seaguards
or 2x 10 archers
Maybe (but not likely) 2x 20 spears

Special.
One unit of PG (not too sure about this one, if I take 2x 20 spears, i might not take the PG)
2x 10/12 SM. (Maybe one unit, but I'd rather take 2)
DP (5-7, not decided yet)
Maybe a unit of Helms or Ellyrians
WL seems pretty good, but High Elves with huge, twohanded AXES?! :wtf: They are just too none-elfy for me to use.
One small group of shadow warriors

Rare.
2-3 RBT's
1-2 Eagles

This is if I take the Star Dragon.

I haven't done any maths on this at all, but it seems pretty much around 2000 pts or some more sience there are so many unspecified units.

Voodoo Boyz
30-11-2007, 15:18
I'm looking at the HE book with ideas on what to run as well and I'm somewhat stuck too. I do know that I want the Prince on a Star Dragon though, since I got the Dragon kit and it can NOT be resisted.

I wanted to build it around Dragon Princes, Lion Chariots, and Eagles. Mainly because of the models there. I wanted to avoid the RBT's, SM's, any of the Elite infantry.

Still looking for help in how to build this list. So hard to fit everything in! :(

Xzazzarai
30-11-2007, 15:21
Stop hijacking my thread!!! :mad:

:D

ObiWan
30-11-2007, 15:23
Quick question off-topic, can you build both characters with the dragon kit (I mean a prince and a mage) so you can swap them / magnetize?

the12thronin
30-11-2007, 18:18
What do you want the prince to do? You can go cheap on an eagle for 300ish and be a flying bolt thrower or blob of a null magic zone. I would only go dragon if you want him to be a rank breaker but that's a whole lot of points to put into that role when you can do the same with 3 units of dragon princes for close to the same price.

brambleten
30-11-2007, 18:42
stick the lord on a star dragon with a null stone and then any basic items you want. then, fly round the battlefield negating magic and causing terror, all the while challenging opposing heros and smiting them.

Xzazzarai
30-11-2007, 18:58
Nah, no flying Bolters for me. I want him to be able to take out most things by himself. I know that aint possible all the time and so on. But I want to be able to put in something REALLY powerfull where ever it's needed. And, to be able to deal with other huge beasts or ridden monsters.
I know that aint possible all the time with a Griffon, but then, i can use the points left over from the dragon, to buy something supportive or such.

Besides, I think i need a bsb in my army...

But, the Dragon is soo much cooler! :D

brambleten
30-11-2007, 19:10
i usually field a BSB with banner of battle, alongside an archmage and 2 mages, if that helps at all. oh, and try giving teh prince blade of sea gold and armour of protection, or a radient gem of hoeth and take lore of beasts for him with the bears anger. as it gives him acess to arcane items, fill him with the dispell scrolls you would put on your mages and make your mages more offensive. that usually helps to put the magic phase in your favour.

Red_Lep
30-11-2007, 19:18
If you want to go Griffon then i'd go with Eltharion because Stormwing is much better.

maswalaki
30-11-2007, 19:19
DP has only S5 attack, likely 12/unit.
prince is 4+7 S6 S7. And its far more mobile, can breath at big infantry blocks before charging at them from the back (or force to turn their back on your battle line), cause terror (and much much more likely to survive... except vs lots of cannons&artillery with a good guesser. but that would do the same with the DPs.)
For me the Prince on Stardragon is the ultimate thing, with lots of mobile cc thing (shadow warriors, eagles, maybe reavers) to take out the dangerous artillery. And the prince-on-dragon combo will eat itself throught the most things including chosen chaos knights with character, Greatswords, Steamtank, hundreds of gobbos)

The other army with blocks and rbts is a bit too slow to use the dragon. For me.

Chicago Slim
30-11-2007, 19:39
Nah, no flying Bolters for me. I want him to be able to take out most things by himself.

It's anecdotal evidence, I know, but consider two recent games of mine.

Game 1: I took an eaglebolter, who killed about 600 points of Chaos Knights and added two wounds to a Khorne Lord, all by his lonesome;

Game 2: I took Tyrion, who spent three turns stuck in with a single unit of Dwarven crossbows (and actually LOST one round of combat against them!)

Yes, a star dragon packs considerably more punch than Malhandir, and has a few more points of US (which eventually should add up to adding CR, and auto-breaking the foe), but even 11 attacks at S5-7 isn't something I'd rely on to take out much by itself, with any kind of speed.

Xzazzarai
30-11-2007, 20:03
Most ppl tend to speak for the dragon (even if the same don't litterally recommend it, they diss the Griffon ^^) wich kinda makes me happy, sience i tend to lean a little towards the mount with scales and a breathweapon.

I know my list aint considerably (spelling?) fast moving or manouvreable, but they are still elves...
Kinda wanna pick the enemys regements off, one by one.

Thx for the advice about the radiant gem of hoeth, but i can't use bears anger with a Prince riding a Dragon, sience it's only allowed to cast att characters with US1, aka on foot.

Btw, are you allowed to take 2 magic items of the same type on one character. For example two arcane items on a mage?
Can't fin anything about it in the rule book, så please tell where to find it.

ObiWan
30-11-2007, 22:11
With the exception of dispel scrolls and power stones, (and maybe listed exceptions in army books) you can't take the same item twice in the army, let alone the same character. It's in the magic section in the rulebook.

Xzazzarai
30-11-2007, 22:39
With the exception of dispel scrolls and power stones, (and maybe listed exceptions in army books) you can't take the same item twice in the army, let alone the same character. It's in the magic section in the rulebook.

Maybe i need to be a bit more precise - Can i take two diffrent magic items of the same type on one character.
Example: Amulet of fire and guardian phoenix on a Prince?

CHOOBER SNIPES
30-11-2007, 22:49
The eagle bolt thrower isnt bad, cus its not lik it cant fight if it needs to. its also really cheap. u can get really good angles too because it can fly everywhere. great cav killer. anyway, ive seen a lot of ppl going for moon dragons, but star dragons are just so awesome. 11 S7 attacks are a lot. havent u ever seen a 5 wide unit of SM break something? those are at lower WS and lower S. anyway, if u go stardragon prince mayb giv him starlance and vambraces of defense, or starlance, guardian phoenix, and armor of caledor. good survivability. mayb the armor of protection instead of vambraces, as he gets a low AS anyway, so reroll isnt important, just the 4+ ward. no u cant take same type on same character. one arcane, one magic armor, etc.

SV_Harlequin
30-11-2007, 23:09
The Griffon is pointless when compared to Eltharion and Stormwing. You field a Prince to field a Dragon other wise you might aswell just field another Noble. If you don't want to field Elth go for the Basic Dragon its only a few points more than the Griffon but has a ASave and better stats.

I'd for for the Star Dragon aswell but I field a Moon one due to points, I actually want to field a fair few numbers of Regiments.

Xzazzarai
01-12-2007, 00:06
Aight, thx for the advice! Much appreciated!

Star Dragon it is then! =)

Chicago Slim
01-12-2007, 17:12
See, I'm a fan of the Griffon-- but an even bigger fan of Stormwing. So, yeah, I'm with you on that one.

Dragon Prince of Caledor
02-12-2007, 02:21
I think that for 150 pts between a star dragon and a sun dragon i would take a dr4agon mage. Drain dispel dice while you still have somebody who can flank, fly, cause terror, see over things, kill warmachines, negate ranks etc. Even a prince on a sun dragon is worth it. Better than griffon with the extra toughness.

lector#1
02-12-2007, 07:20
well i can honestly say that unless you are playing against alot of chaos the dragons and griffon are going to get blasted by misselfire and yeah id say on an elven steed ok it doesnt have the strength of a flying mount but with the points you save you can tool up a nice big unit of silverhelms or dragon princes to run with him

Kyuss
02-12-2007, 11:00
Take him on a Hawk if you play against lots of high leadership/fearless armies, and spend the rest on chariots/2nd unit of dragon princes/some silver helms.

I actually think the Moon Dragon is the best value, but their we are.....

Thoras
02-12-2007, 15:47
Quick question off-topic, can you build both characters with the dragon kit (I mean a prince and a mage) so you can swap them / magnetize?

Sure can, i've built mine to switch out easily between dragon/Archmage and Prince.

dgraz
02-12-2007, 19:41
I love the griffon and the dragon, so I would prob take Eltharion on Stormwing and a sundragon.

Xzazzarai
02-12-2007, 20:49
Is special characters leagal in most tournaments?

Red_Lep
02-12-2007, 23:38
Is special characters leagal in most tournaments?

In the new books they are.

Xzazzarai
03-12-2007, 09:00
Cool! Didn't know that!

You totally sure?

Warlord Ghazak Gazhkull
03-12-2007, 18:47
I would take the star dragon, most people said it will be shot but I doubt that, cause with 7 t6 wounds the chances are low it will be blasted and in turn 2 it hits the lines from your opponent with 11 s7 attacks( starlance) so it is a good choice but expensive.

Greetz
G

Emissary
03-12-2007, 19:00
The Star Dragon is still T6, it is S7 though.

I took a Prince on a Star Dragon to a tourney this weekend and managed to get first place with it. I've got a detail of the battle reports from the tourney at http://bluegrassgamers.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3496.

The 2250 list I took was:

Prince w/ Star Dragon, Halberd
*Armor of Caledor
*Vambraces of Defense
Mage
*Dispel Scroll
*Dispel Scroll
20 Spearmen w/ Full command
20 Spearmen w/ Full Command
20 White Lions w/ Full Command
*Lion Standard
Lion Chariot
Lion Chariot
Lion Chariot
2 Repeater Bolt Throwers
2 Great Eagles

Played 2 dwarf players and a skaven player with a warp lightning cannon. Artillary is bad, but you can take steps to decrease its effect even on terrain light tables like what I played on.

ObiWan
03-12-2007, 20:14
Oh OK, I understand the question. Ironically, the same answer is still valid :p with the exception that it should say now "...you can't take more than one item from each category..." instead of "...you can't take the same item twice in the army, let alone the same character..."

Emissary
03-12-2007, 20:21
You can't have duplicates of the same item in your army other then dispel scrolls and power stones. You also can't have 2+ items from the same catagory on one model unless all but one of those items are scrolls or power stones.

IE, you can't have 2 guardian phoenix in your army and you can't have the guardian phoenix and vambraces of defence on your prince. You can have a dispel scroll and silver wand on one mage.

Dragoonzero0
03-12-2007, 22:10
It seems like the OP has his mind set on a Star Dragon and that is great. Putting a durable, super killer, that flies is cool. But it is inevitable that it will be the first target of the enemy's best shooting. As long as you accept this then have fun.
This is the same dillema as with all other high cost monsterous mounts. They are fun and fluffy and great to field. But, they often have trouble making their points back.

Sunfang
03-12-2007, 22:22
I think a star dragon will be the first target of anything that shoots. Point wise it's the smartest play your opponent can make.

EndlessBug
03-12-2007, 22:32
IMO if you're taking a star dragon you need to create a multiple threat army, i.e. take a dragon mage too, this not only gives you magic (granted not the +1 dispel) but also means that those cannon(s) can't possiably kill both in 1 turn, 2nd turn they should be dead. Also on top of this I suggest a unit of swordmasters as their armour isn't so important anymore, there are MUCH bigger fish to fry than these bad boys. This will give you 3 bad ass units.

Alternatively the firemage and prince on griffon, allowing you a extra slot for noble on steed, bung him in a decent sized dragon princes unit and you have 3 MAJOR threats.

SV_Harlequin
03-12-2007, 22:34
But its not the point in most cases, if you do have Star Dragon, you opponent will have to spend all its concentrated fire on it so Regiments like Sword Masters and DPrinces can pretty much move unmolested into the enemy and make it without loosing any of their own models.
So the Star Dragon acts as bait which few can resist going for cause they know that if they don't go for it, it will be the thing wiping out there army and if they do go for it it will be something else wiping out there army.

marv335
03-12-2007, 22:51
I like my prince on star dragon.
with dragon armour, a lance and a shield, and the bow of the seafarer he's a versatile unit.
I use him for rear charges and to cause terror. I get him in the flanks or rear of my opponent.
so far in 4 games I've not had the dragon killed once.
I use terrain to keep it out of warmachine LoS, and the 20" movement means that in turn 2 I'm out of Los of most other shooting units.

that said my favorite army build has a prince on a barded steed in a unit of dragon princes armed with the star lance and the RgoH.
add the warbanner and it generally steamrollers any unit it hits.
the DP/prince combo costs less too.

fubukii
04-12-2007, 02:39
Prince (2#, 620 Pts)
1 Prince @ 620 Pts
Hand Weapon
1 Star Dragon @ [370] Pts
Causes Terror; Flyer; Large Target; Scaly Skin
1 Star Lance s
1 Armour of Caledor
1 Guardian Phoenix
1 Talisman of Loec

Archers (10#, 110 Pts)
10 Archers @ 110 Pts
Hand Weapon; Longbow

Archers (10#, 110 Pts)
10 Archers @ 110 Pts
Hand Weapon; Longbow

Mage (1#, 140 Pts)
1 Mage @ 140 Pts
Hand Weapon
1 Dispel Scroll
1 Dispel Scroll

Dragon Princes (5#, 150 Pts)
5 Dragon Princes of Caledor @ 150 Pts
Barding; Hand Weapon; Lance; Dragon Armour; Shield
5 Elven Steed

Dragon Princes (5#, 150 Pts)
5 Dragon Princes of Caledor @ 150 Pts
Barding; Hand Weapon; Lance; Dragon Armour; Shield
5 Elven Steed

Dragon Princes (5#, 150 Pts)
5 Dragon Princes of Caledor @ 150 Pts
Barding; Hand Weapon; Lance; Dragon Armour; Shield
5 Elven Steed

Great Eagle (1#, 50 Pts)
1 Great Eagle @ 50 Pts
Flyer

Great Eagle (1#, 50 Pts)
1 Great Eagle @ 50 Pts
Flyer

Great Eagle (1#, 50 Pts)
1 Great Eagle @ 50 Pts
Flyer

Dragon Princes (6#, 180 Pts)
6 Dragon Princes of Caledor @ 180 Pts
Barding; Hand Weapon; Lance; Dragon Armour; Shield
6 Elven Steed
Dragon Princes (5#, 185 Pts)
5 Dragon Princes of Caledor @ 185 Pts
Standard Bearer Std; Barding; Hand Weapon; Lance; Dragon Armour; Shield
1 Banner of Ellyrion
5 Elven Steed

Great Eagle (1#, 50 Pts)
1 Great Eagle @ 50 Pts
Flyer

Total Roster Cost: 1995

Xzazzarai
04-12-2007, 06:59
Thx for all the advise!
The last list posted was CRUEL!

I want something... well... let's say, not as cruel ^^
If I wanted a speedy and hitty list, I'd go for chaos, wich I actually might do. Haven't decided yet. Sience an all mounted speedy, hitty Tzeentch list Really apeals to me! A MoT Dragon, 2 MoT exalted, some knights, some screamers, some dragon ogres, som hounds and so on.
If I play HE how ever, I want an army with a bit more variation. Allthough small in numbers, and hard hitting. 2 Dragons someone said? Could be fun, but still. I think the DM dies way too easy.
I'm thinking of making a list something like this.
Prine + Dragon.
2 x lvl 2 mage
10 archers
15-20 spears
5-6 DP
2x 10-12 SM (Maybe just one unit of SM, and the other of WL)
5 shadow warriors (aint too sure about these guys. I got a dragon and 2 eagles. Sience I don't have very much shooting, marchblocking aint that important.)
2x RBT
2x eagle
Think that leaves me with some points left for a 2250 pts game. Dunno what to fill it with.
Maybe a bit Off-T...

p3990013
04-12-2007, 10:56
The most succesful Elf heroes I've seen:

* Prince on Elven steed that joins a DP unit.
* Hero on Great eagle that chases skirmishers or warmachines.
* Mage inside Spearmen.

Big scary dragons are a joke when charging full ranked infantry:

- The e.g. 600 pts HE General on thy mighty dragon charges the e.g. 100 pts Brettonian Peasants.
- You get challenged by champion.
- You inflict at most 4 wounds (star lance) or maybe 5 wounds with another sword?
- Then champion gets overkilled and dragon has nowhere to direct his attacks.
- You have no musician. So you lose by 1.
- And that's when you roll very good on those to hit rolls

Sorry but I've never seen a pricey monster put to good use...

DeathlessDraich
04-12-2007, 11:14
Mount on what?
Try my cousin. She's such a taxx that anything will do! :p

Seriously the dreaded choice would be a Star Dragon.

Xzazzarai
04-12-2007, 11:28
Big scary dragons are a joke when charging full ranked infantry:

- The e.g. 600 pts HE General on thy mighty dragon charges the e.g. 100 pts Brettonian Peasants.
- You get challenged by champion.
- You inflict at most 4 wounds (star lance) or maybe 5 wounds with another sword?
- Then champion gets overkilled and dragon has nowhere to direct his attacks.
- You have no musician. So you lose by 1.
- And that's when you roll very good on those to hit rolls

Sorry but I've never seen a pricey monster put to good use...


Well, first things first.
I wouldn't charge a fully ranked unit in the front but IF i would: If my Prince slays the champion, the Dragon is still allowed to make his attacks against the allready slain champion, boosting the overkill even further, up to a maximum of +5. And don't forget the wound that killed the champion, for a total of +6. (With some luck perhaps?)

If I flank/rear-charge the regiment (which I will) the Champion can not issue or accept challenges (unless he's placed in the rear of the regiment for some odd reason :wtf:). I get all my attack directed at the unit, and will wreak havoc amongst them. They get no rank-bonus due to flank/rear and I get the bonus for flank/rear + kills.

I'd like to se some peasents stand up to that... :D

p3990013
04-12-2007, 11:40
Well, first things first. If my Prince slays the champion, the Dragon is still allowed to make his attacks against the allready slain champion, boosting the overkill even further, up to a maximum of +5. And don't forget the wound that killed the champion, for a total of +6.
If I flank/rear-charge the regiment (which I will) the Champion can not issue or accept challenges (unless he's placed att there rear of the regiment for some odd reason :wtf:). I get all my attack directed at the unit, and will wreak havoc amongst them. They get no rank-bonus due to flank/rear and I get the bonus for flank/rear + kills.
I'd like to se some peasents stand up to that... :D

No, I think I'm right on this. If you kill the champion with the lord, the dragon cannot attack the already slain champion.

Also to get a flank charge, you'll have to be close to the enemy's warmachines. Even one organ gun or great cannon can either kill your T3 lord or d6 wound your pricey dragon.

Xzazzarai
04-12-2007, 11:50
No, I think I'm right on this. If you kill the champion with the lord, the dragon cannot attack the already slain champion.

Also to get a flank charge, you'll have to be close to the enemy's warmachines. Even one organ gun or great cannon can either kill your T3 lord or d6 wound your pricey dragon.

The Dragon IS allowed to make his attacks against the champion, even if he's slain.
* Warhammer rulebook, 7:th ed page 77 § Overkill.
Unless I've seriously missed something, I'd say I'm right on this one.

And yes, the dragon can be blasted with cannons, and the Prince too. But that's a risk I'm willing to take. =)
I really like Dragons, expecially the old DE Rakarth-model. I'll try to get my hands on it asap. =)

DarthSte
04-12-2007, 12:00
http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=115882

My brother mounted one on an Eldar jetbike. Not much use in a WHFB setting, but looks good.

p3990013
04-12-2007, 12:46
then we've been playing overkill wrong for so long :mad:

In that case, it sounds good :cool:

Xzazzarai
04-12-2007, 12:58
then we've been playing overkill wrong for so long :mad:

In that case, it sounds good :cool:

Yeah, sry mate.
But I think the current rules for challenges are pretty good. A Dragon running from a bunch of peasents (who prolly never seen any reptile bigger than a 2 foot snake) just cuz their champion cries "Challenge" and gets oblitirated to the max? :wtf:

Hope you come up with a new way of dealing with Dragons! Wish you the best of luck mate! :)

Fate
05-12-2007, 01:10
No, you can't, you can only take one tipe of item with the armour exception where you can have anything which can be combined with other armours, but besides that, no, you can't take 2 talismans for example.

Also on the dragon/eagle thingy. Go for the dragon, anything that flies is a bolt magnet, so you want the better, also bear in mind that a star dragon can do miracles alone, then you get him a null stone so you can decide if you pick them in close combat or just nullify the enemies items so that they are easy picks for the bolt throwers. The only downside of it is that an army with 8 bolt throwers (like dwarves or orcs) can be messy. Still you don't have much to lose if you play it well.

Xzazzarai
05-12-2007, 08:33
Does the null stone permanently nullify magic items, or are they just unusefull as long as the stone is within 6"?

marv335
05-12-2007, 10:35
I hear a lot of talk about 8 boltthrower lists, but honestly, has anyone ever seen one?
I don't know anyone who fields a list that restricted.
Anyway, I've not had any problems with having my dragon killed. I find I can keep it behind some terrain until I can get it into combat.

Emissary
05-12-2007, 13:03
To have 8 bolt throwers you'd have to be playing somthing like 4000 points. Bolt Throwers are 1 per rare slot now as are eagles.

The null stone only nullifies magic items and spellcasting as long as it's within 6" of the item. When it's further then they work fine again.

marv335
05-12-2007, 13:07
To have 8 bolt throwers you'd have to be playing somthing like 4000 points. Bolt Throwers are 1 per rare slot now as are eagles.

Boltthrowers/spearchukkas are two for one in Dwarf and Orc & Goblin armies

Emissary
05-12-2007, 15:12
Yes, but since this was a HE thread figured that was the one you were referring.

marv335
05-12-2007, 15:59
It's a thread about what to mount a HE Prince on, we were discussing major threats to a Dragon mounted character.

Unwise
06-12-2007, 01:00
If it were to take a flying character it would be Eltharion. He is great value for points and his uber-grpyhon with a 5+ wardsave is damn tough for 205 points. Neither he nor his gryphon take up another hero slot either.

Not only does he not take up a hero slot, but he acts as a level 2 mage, so he frees up another spot by meaning you can take one less. Last time I took him I gave him the lore of light, he luckily rolled one spell that heals and one that lowers the enemys combat skills, so it was perfect for his role.

A secondary question is what units will support the flying lord and how. Personally I like a level 2 mage with seer and the Dooming Darkness spell. He casts it and lowers the enemy's leadership by 3. Then Eltharion flys in and terrorfies them. If using a normal lord, a second High mage using Shield of Saphyre gives both the lord and his dragon a 5+ ward. I also invest heavily in anti-warmachine units, mostly eagles.