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View Full Version : Slaaneshi Spell "Titilating Delusions" Debate



Fulgrim's-Chosen
30-11-2007, 21:01
This is one of the most oddly (badly) worded of all the spells in the Hordes of Chaos book (and perhaps in the game, in general). I know there are a lot of debates by people on how this is supposed to be played and what restrictions or limitations are put on the unit being affected by it. What do you veterans and tourney-gamers know about the "correct" interpretation and does anyone have knowledge of a FAQ or other official GW write-up that explains step-by-step how the spell is supposed to work ?


Here's my understanding, by the way... you cast it on a unit in range. You pick a spot within that unit's Line of Sight that they must head towards as rapidly as possible. Because it has to be in their Line of Sight, you can't make the spot be "Behind Them"...it has to be visible to them from their position at the moment the spell successfully is cast.

The rules for the spell say they must go as rapidly as they can (IE-March if possible) towards that spot, but that this movement happens in the "Remaining Moves" portion of the Movement Phase.

It also explains that they will/must "Charge and Fight" any unit that lies along the Direct route they are headed towards.



So if the affected unit is:

UNIT

and the Target point is:

UNIT-----------------------TARGET (directly across the field from them)


IF an enemy unit is sitting right between the direct line between the affected Unit and the Target Spot they are forced to march towards, then a charge can be declared, etc. and the units will fight:

UNIT-------------ENEMY IN THE WAY------------TARGET




* But...the point of debate in some of my friendly games has been ....Can the unit affected by the Spell simply Declare a Charge, naturally, as it normally would in the Declare Charges part of the Movement Phase, and thus totally get out of the "forced Movement" effects of the spell ? ? ?

It seems absurd that if the spell is cast, all the affected player must do is have that unit say...hmm...okay....I'll declare a charge against your nearby unit of Marauders, and ignore the fact that you wanted to use your spell to force me to march out in the middle of the board and expose my flanks to your forces...

If this was/is allowed, then even if the unit being affected by the spell does not reach the enemy unit they declared a charge against (IE-Failed Charge), they would still move towards them somewhat, per the rules for Charges/Failed Charges, etc. - - - and thus (in effect) AWAY from the direct route to the Spot on the Table that the Slaanesh Spell Casting Player originally selected for them to have to march towards.

In other words....the spell would suck if this was a way "out of it" (simply Declare a charge against any enemy unit in Line of Sight, etc.).

So any help/info/actual game experiences would be quite helpful to hear from you guys ! Thanks !

Fate
01-12-2007, 12:35
There are 2 things to have in mind, first, if the spell is directly behind a unit, the the affected unit will probably not see it.

Second there is no charge declaration, they move in the remaning moves so it's kinda like frenzy, they charge if when they march come into contact (not the same but almost the same). If the enemy unit runs they still march as they don't declare charge they are simply moving fowards mindlessly.

Neknoh
01-12-2007, 18:49
I would say that they cannot, based on the "shortest route" or "as quickly as possible" (can't remember the exact wording), a unit charging AWAY from the shortest route is a concious decision by the player to move said unit by a LONGER route, and thus NOT following the limitations of the spell

SlaaneshSlave
01-12-2007, 19:11
Disagreed.

Yes, target needs to be in the line of sight.

But the unit can still declare charges as normal. "Look a naked lady! I like boobies. Let's go that way & nevermind those knights about to charge us..."

The spell helps control enemy movement, gets missile troops to move, get units to move into charge range; but it does NOT keep enemy units out of combat against their will.

It is good, but not that good.

Belerophon709
01-12-2007, 19:21
Charges can in fact be declared, as normal, but only if the target is in the direct path. The spell actually says you have to, if you read it carefully. Charging away from the direct path goes against the spell description "as quickly as possible" (can't remember the exact wording, but I think that's about it).

SlaaneshSlave
01-12-2007, 19:41
You declare charges before Remaining Moves.

The spell impacts the Remaining Moves phase, after charges are declared. So, declare charges as normal.

I don't see this as confusing at all. And considering how good this spell is when I play it this way; it does not need to limit charge declarations too.

Tuch
01-12-2007, 22:15
The Spell says you MUST make the movement in the remaining moves part of the phase. If you MUST do this then you CANNOT make a charge declaration that is not in your direct path just because it happens before the remaining moves part of the phase as that option is no longer valid.

sulla
01-12-2007, 22:36
The Spell says you MUST make the movement in the remaining moves part of the phase. If you MUST do this then you CANNOT make a charge declaration that is not in your direct path just because it happens before the remaining moves part of the phase as that option is no longer valid.

I think everyone knows what the intent of the spell is, but the question is whether the wording of the spell prevents a charge before remaining moves. It doesn't seem to.

Tuch
01-12-2007, 22:42
I'm sorry but I must disagree as I don't see where It does allow for a charge unless it is in the direct path. Honestly, I believe this spell will be debated until a new version of it or a faq is written on it.

xmbk
03-12-2007, 17:25
A unit under Compulsory movement restrictions cannot choose to declare a charge, except as provided for by the spell.

Greyfire
05-12-2007, 00:23
Honestly, I believe this spell will be debated until a new version of it or a faq is written on it.
There is an FAQ for it: Hordes of Chaos FAQ (http://us.games-workshop.com/errata/assets/hordesofchaos.pdf).



Q: The Slaanesh spell Titillating Delusions... does this mean that they can declare charges as normal (thereby moving before being forced to move in the remaining moves phase)?

A: Yes. If there is an enemy in their way they must declare a charge against them following the normal turn sequence.

Sounds like when a charge is needed the spell is "ignored briefly". Of course, note the "enemy in the way" part. If the enemy is in the way declare charge as normal. So if the enemy is not in the way then no charge may be declared. So you could end up running just past a unit that's not in your path that you'd normally be able to charge since you could see them and had movement.

But I could be wrong. I'm pretty sure I've seen this debated in other threads. I thought the FAQ cleared it up so I wanted to pass it along. I hope it helps some.

-=- Steve

(BTW, I know that If X Then Y does not imply If Not X then Not Y - but that's the closest we're going to get for a long while, I think. For more discussion about this spell check out this thread. (http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90827&highlight=Titillating+Delusions))

theunwantedbeing
05-12-2007, 00:35
If there is an enemy along the line from the centre of the front of the unit to the marker they are trying to get to they are allowed to charge it, if not they must move as quickly and directly as possible to the target.

So while they are allowed to charge an enemy that is on that line, thats the only instance they get to "avoid the effect". But thats generally something you'll do on purpose.....

DeathlessDraich
05-12-2007, 12:58
It is as Belerophon, Greyfire and unwantedbeing stated.

"it will charge and fight any enemy unit that lies along this line of advance"

A) Any charge that deviates from this path is disallowed.
B) Final alignment proceeds as normal and
C) failed charges should follow the original 'line of advance' instead of the fleeing unit's line of flight.

The question here is what happens after this combat since the spell Remains in play.

i) If the affected unit wins combat, it must still proceed to move towards the marker. No problems here.

ii) But if it is defeated, in which direction should it flee?
IIRC someone in a previous discussion came up with this strange conclusion:
Following the rules strictly it should flee normally and then move again compulsorily in the Remaining moves towards the marker??!
I doubt whether this is acceptable.

Greyfire
05-12-2007, 14:51
ii) But if it is defeated, in which direction should it flee?
IIRC someone in a previous discussion came up with this strange conclusion:
Following the rules strictly it should flee normally and then move again compulsorily in the Remaining moves towards the marker??!
I doubt whether this is acceptable.
Hmmmm.... army book trumps basic rules on fleeing, basic rules on fleeing trumps army book on spell description??? :confused: I'm not sure I can feel strongly about this one, but I'm used to army books trumping basic rules most of the time, which oftimes leads to our interesting discusssions. That's one I'll have to ask my local players about to see if they have anything that can help with. It's the first time I've heard someone say that.

-=- Steve

Chicago Slim
05-12-2007, 16:00
As a Slaaneshi player, I've come to take a really liberal view of Titilating Delusions (partly because it's easier than arguing, and partly because it makes me be a bit more careful, which is never a bad thing).

Here's the position I take, when I cast Titilating Delusions: I'm going to specify a target, towards which your unit must move, if they move in the Remaining Moves subphase.

If your unit moves in any other Movement subphase (that is, Compulsory Moves or Move Chargers), then my spell will have no effect for that turn (since you're not eligible to move in Remaining Moves, which is the only time that my spell has any effect).


What that means, strategically, is that I can't cast it on units subject to Compulsary Moves. What it means, tactically, is that I have to be careful to avoid giving ANY target for the affected unit to charge. This isn't that hard to do, really, and is sound practice to begin with. It also becomes progressively easier as the target unit moves. Generally, if I can keep out of it's way for a turn or two, that unit is out of the game (and possibly blocking its friends from moving into beneficial positions). A very substantial payoff, I think.


I recognize that this is MY interpretation of the spell (actually, an interpretation I hammered out with the consultation of my mates who I game with), and I don't claim that it's any more right than any other. I only observe that it avoids needless debate (since reasonable players tend to see me as being as fair as I can be), and that it's easy to plan around, if you know that your plan includes preventing the target unit from having things to charge at. (Actually, on one occasion, I have put a beast herd in charge range, because the target unit's placement would be EVEN WORSE after I fled and he failed that charge... then had to wheel a bunch to get back to chasing the spot...)

Briohmar
05-12-2007, 20:44
Hmmmm.... army book trumps basic rules on fleeing, basic rules on fleeing trumps army book on spell description??? :confused: I'm not sure I can feel strongly about this one, but I'm used to army books trumping basic rules most of the time, which oftimes leads to our interesting discusssions. That's one I'll have to ask my local players about to see if they have anything that can help with. It's the first time I've heard someone say that.

-=- Steve

Ah but here is where it gets good. If said unit charges, is broken, and fleeing, then my turn comes next. It's a RiP spell, which for all intents and purposes has now done its job, to wit, the unit has been broken and moved out of position. With this little bit of knowledge, I as a devoted Slaaneshi player would just cast the spell on the next unit I want out of position, no more RiP, no problem. Especially since casting dice comes at a premium, and that spell is costing me at least two dice (in 7th ed) that I now can't use for some of the other cool spells. Oh and by the way, One of my fast moving units is also going to charge said unit and keep it fleeing even farther out of position, even if they can't run it down.

Fulgrim's-Chosen
06-12-2007, 07:59
I think the problem with the "all you (the affected player) must do to avoid the effects of the spell is to declare a charge...any charge...anywhere...within your field of view per normal charge-declaration rules"....is that it takes the punch out of the spell rather strongly and also goes against the idea that the affected unit is under the affects of a mind-altering enchantment.... ie they are seeing and hearing and thinking about this grand magical illusion that is in the distance and that's all that they want in the whole world (to get to it).

If there is something in their way...of course they are going to tear it apart and keep running towards the illusion (which is why if there are enemy units in their direct line of movement between them and the Illusion Marked Spot...they will fight them, as per a normal charge). . . but the idea that the affected unit has it's target Illusion Marker placed 35-inches directly across from it....yet it will avoid the effects by simply declaring a charge to it's diagonal-right at a unit of enemy cavalry 30-inches distant...seems extreme and against the spirit of the spell.


Even if you can't reach the unit you've declared the ridiculous charge against...who would care because you'd still get to move yourself in the (general) direction of your choice...and away from the target illusion area on the board...so you aren't REALLY being controlled by the opponent's spell at that point...it gets more and more absurd if you allow Declared Charges to counter this form of Compulsory Movement when the two armies get closer...at that time, there's almost always going to be some of the Slaaneshi units in range of the Delusioned Unit...which will allow them to declare and fight normal charges, and "who cares about Titilating Delusions !" at that point.

Surely that cannot be the way the spell is "played out" at tournaments and other official events...right ?


I ask because as we can see in the thread, there still seems to be a strong amount of differing opinion on the spell and the way to "play it". . . . .

Nurgling Chieftain
06-12-2007, 19:44
Based on the rule and the FAQ, I think you can declare charges normally unless there's an enemy in the direct path to the target point, whereupon you must declare a charge against that enemy.

However, I would like to add another point in response to the original and most recent posts: deliberately declaring a charge at something you know you cannot reach (so that you'll move in a different direction) is cheating, pure and simple. This sort of "voluntarily failed" charge declaration is addressed in the main rulebook FAQ, and they don't pull any punches about what they think of it...

Chicago Slim
06-12-2007, 20:10
Yeah, like I say, as the CASTER of Titilating Delusions, I'm more than happy to allow the targeted unit to declare legal charges at anything they can see, even if it's not in the direct line towards their objective. Keeps me honest, I figure.

In terms of fluff interpretation... I have no problem with the idea that the target unit will only chase the mirage if it doesn't have something better to do, right now (like, go fight those guys just slightly to the left, who are going to kill us if we don't get them first...)

That said, my tastes in the matter may be flavored by lots of role-playing games, where a typical condition on mind control is that it can't compel someone to do something directly dangerous to themselves (like, exposing your flank to an enemy, instead of charging them with your front). Of course I recognize that these external influences have nothing to do with WHFB rules-- but they still color my interpretation a bit, and make it easier for me to swallow that my spell is only MOSTLY awesome in its powerfulness, and not COMPLETELY awesome...

Tuch
07-12-2007, 01:41
make it easier for me to swallow that my spell is only MOSTLY awesome in its powerfulness, and not COMPLETELY awesome...

And herein lies the basic problem with the spell. It is COMPLETELY awesome, and therefore everyone suffering from it wants to try and find a way around it's affect by picking it apart until they have twisted it into something they like.

BTW the group I play with goes by the strict interpretation of the spell, no charges unless in the direct path, even if this means missing a charge by a mere inch, and we never seem to have any troubles or cries of unfairness. The spell does seem to be a top priority for the dispel dice and scrolls though.

DeathlessDraich
07-12-2007, 12:43
simply declaring a charge to it's diagonal-right at a unit of enemy cavalry 30-inches distant...seems extreme and against the spirit of the spell.


Simply against the rules. see**


Based on the rule and the FAQ, I think you can declare charges normally unless there's an enemy in the direct path to the target point, whereupon you must declare a charge against that enemy.
However, I would like to add another point in response to the original and most recent posts: deliberately declaring a charge at something you know you cannot reach (so that you'll move in a different direction) is cheating, pure and simple. This sort of "voluntarily failed" charge declaration is addressed in the main rulebook FAQ, and they don't pull any punches about what they think of it...

You cannot declare a charge *normally* but only under one circumstance for Tit. Del. see**


Yeah, like I say, as the CASTER of Titilating Delusions, I'm more than happy to allow the targeted unit to declare legal charges at anything they can see, even if it's not in the direct line towards their objective

The rules for Tit. Del. disallows this. see**



BTW the group I play with goes by the strict interpretation of the spell, no charges unless in the direct path, even if this means missing a charge by a mere inch, and we never seem to have any troubles or cries of unfairness. The spell does seem to be a top priority for the dispel dice and scrolls though.

Yes, this is demanded by the rules and reiterated by the FAQ which is not even needed.

**The rule is quite clear:
"it will charge and fight any enemy unit that lies *along this line of advance*"

Let me reiterate *along this line of advance*. No deviation is allowed.

1) A charge can only be declared on units that the affected unit will make contact as it moves *directly* towards the marker.
2) Units in difficult terrain along the direct path may possibly *not* be charged if a faster alternative path is available.
3) A failed charge will not 'hasten' movement towards the marker as failed chargers cannot move in the Remaining moves phase.

As I mentioned in post no.13,
a) Final alignment has to be allowed for this charge
b) When the affected unit flees or is forced to flee (from Panic, Terror or after Breaking etc), a dice roll is needed to see whether the unit is still affected by the spell.

Chicago Slim
07-12-2007, 16:03
Let me reiterate *along this line of advance*. No deviation is allowed.

2) Units in difficult terrain along the direct path may possibly *not* be charged if a faster alternative path is available.

These two points are utterly inconsistent. If you're going to be strict about the "line of advance," then that's fine-- but lines are always straight (in Euclidean geometry, at least). So if the straight-line movement is what's important, than you must move through whatever terrain is along that straight line.

Once you interpret "line" to mean a broader sense of "path", then why limit that interpretation to avoiding terrain? Why not include charges, too?

So, I'd definitely let you talk me into a strict "straight-line" interpretation, but I'm not buying your rules as listed above, because they're not internally consistent, to my reading.

DeathlessDraich
07-12-2007, 16:32
1) It cannot be Euclidean. Euclidean lines cannot be seen by definition. :D
The 'line of advance' should incorporate the width of the unit.
This is the Warhammer 'line of movement/charging':p
The same 'line' or path is used for EITW rules.

2) The Tit. :p rules do state "directly and *quickly* as possible".
If the affected unit is faced with a fence or a tiny section of woodland jutting slightly into its direct path, the fastest route would be to go around it instead of through the difficult terrain.

"talk me into a strict "straight-line" interpretation, but I'm not buying your rules"
- I love these quaint American expressions - "talk me into" and "buy".

My suggestion is free but do pay me if you want to! :D
BTW - it was my ambition as a young man to play a guitar solo in a Chicago Blues club

Fulgrim's-Chosen
07-12-2007, 18:47
Yeah...I'm agreeing with Draich and the others who are saying that, while affected by the spell and before reaching the Illusion Marker Point, the unit cannot declare normal charges in the Declare Charges part of the phase...and can ONLY charge something that lies in a "direct line of advance" from their location and the Marker at the time the spell was cast.

Like so


AFFECTED UNIT ----------------30 INCHES--------------ILLUSION MARKER


IF there is something that is positioned along that direct line of advance, then yes the Tit-Del-Affected Unit would have to charge/fight them...but if there was something standing 5-inches to the left or right of the Illusion Marker as the Affected Unit closed in on it...but that was far enough from the Marker Point that it was not in a direct-line of advance for the Affected Unit, then the Aff-Unit could NOT declare a charge on them and would have to keep advancing towards the Illusion Marker.


-----------


To the guy who said his view was somewhat colored by Role-Playing Games...remember that Mind-Affecting Spells like Charm Person, etc....don't allow you to make the person do something DIRECTLY hazardous to them (they get a Save attempt to break free of the spell if you compel them to walk off a cliff edge or try to stab themselves with their sword, for instance)......but something like "walk straight ahead on this path and pay no attention to the Goblins on either side of the road" ...that's somewhat different.

SURE...if the person was conscious and non-affected by the Mind-Spell...they would know "Hey, Goblins are vicious little buggers and will probably jump out and attack my flank or shoot arrows at me from their concealed position along the side of the road...I better not keep walking !" - BUT ...that would all presume the person was NOT affected by the Mind-Spell in question.


This is why they allow an affected unit to charge/fight something directly in their way and why, even if the unit is attacked while affected by the spell along it's flanks, etc. - it is still allowed to fight back normally - at that point the urge to fight for their lives (and thus get back to the business of advancing towards the compelling Illusion Marker Point I should note !) overrides the effects of the spell to "keep walking" at that moment.


But the very point of the spell is that while affected by it a unit could very well walk between two enemies who aren't immediately threatening the Tit-Del-Affected models.....even if they might attack immediately on their own turn....they aren't "at that moment" posing a direct-threat to the lives of the Illusion Affected Unit, which is why Tit-Del doesn't allow them to charge/fight those guys while they are still overcome with the desire to reach the Illusion Marker Point.



So even by a "role-playing-game" perspective, the spell makes sense if you play it the way Draich and others have been suggesting it should/is played.

Nurgling Chieftain
07-12-2007, 21:04
I'm seeing a lot of arguments based on the text of the rule, which is all very well and good, but my opinion is based on the FAQ, which agrees that a unit could declare a charge BEFORE being forced to move, and then adds that they MUST declare a charge if there's a unit in the way.

So, it goes like this: In Declare Charges, is there an enemy in the way? If yes, you must charge them. Otherwise, you can declare charges as normal (the FAQ says you can). Then, in Remaining Moves, you have to go towards the marker (I'm not joining the debate about what constitutes a line in this case) - unless you've charged, since you don't move in Remaining Moves if you already took your move.

For the record, I think it's incredibly weird that T.D. movement doesn't occur in the Compulsory Movement phase. It is, after all, movement which has been compelled!

Tuch
08-12-2007, 01:02
If yes, you must charge them. Otherwise, you can declare charges as normal (the FAQ says you can).

Well you did move the sentences around a bit from question to answer to get that statement. I agree the way the FAQ reads it is misleading. They say YES to the question by stating that if a unit is in the line of advance they must declare a charge against that unit. However the answer does not go on to say that if not charges may be declared as normal. Only to what they must charge.

Again this can be argued both ways with neither side able to prove itself well enough to convince the opposition to their side.

Nurgling Chieftain
08-12-2007, 01:38
They say YES to the question by stating that if a unit is in the line of advance they must declare a charge against that unit.Strictly speaking, I don't think that's true at all. They say "Yes." to the question - period included. That, to me, says the answer to the question is "Yes", and therefore the text of the question can be taken as affirmative. Then there's another sentence which talks about charging units in the way.

It does not read to me like the second sentence is the only respect in which you can charge, since the question specifically brings up the point of declaring a charge before HAVING to move. The answer both affirms and does not deny that assertion, so I really think it has to be accepted as a rule as written.

Tuch
08-12-2007, 03:11
If what you say is correct then there is no reason for the FAQ to include the additional sentence. Nowhere in the FAQ, or the spell description, does it state that a charge upon an unit outside of the direct path of the affected unit's obsession is permissible.

Maybe we will get lucky with the Daemon Handbook supposedly coming out next year and see a rewrite of the spell. Until then I feel I must agree to disagree with the view that any and all charges are acceptable.

Festus
08-12-2007, 12:30
Hi

I see it as follows (if anyone is interested):
They may declare a charge to any unit they can legally charge and are moved in the charger phase. Thus they cannot be moved again in the remaining moves phase.
If there are enemy in the way, these must be charged in preference to enemy not in the direct path.
If the unit is stupid or under any compulsory movement rule, it must obey this first as well and thus will not be able to obey the spells movement in the remaining moves phase.

Anything else (like DDraich's interpretation) hinges on the direct route approach, or the fastest route, or whichever other superlative route.

None of this is actually stipulated by the spell.

But the remaining moves subphase is explicitly given. Were it not, no problem would arise, as this is the first movement subphase to actually move units. The spell uses the units movement in the remaining moves phase. If the unit already has moved before, the spell has no effect.

The only thing regarding charges in the spell actually is that the unit must chose to charge enemy in the way to the target in preference to any other charges.

Festus

Defender of Ulthuan
08-12-2007, 16:20
They can still declare charges and charge enemy troops. If they could not, they would be moving in the compulsary moves phase.

SlaaneshSlave
08-12-2007, 21:30
I still don't understand this whole debate.

The rules for this spell have published & remain unchanged for, like, 4 years? I play regularly. I attend tournaments where I play people I've never met before. I've been in tournaments with 150 players.

And I have never met a person in the real world who debated this spell. Everyone seems to play it as Chicago Slim & I do. And everyone fears it. And it is a powerful spell.

Sometimes I want a forum section for "How the Rules Are Played" instead of "How the Rules are Written & Should be Played."

Nurgling Chieftain
10-12-2007, 20:20
If what you say is correct then there is no reason for the FAQ to include the additional sentence.Nonsense. The additional sentence means you have to charge an enemy that's in the way in the declare charges phase. That is a stipulation above and beyond the prior affirmative "yes".


Nowhere in the FAQ, or the spell description, does it state that a charge upon an unit outside of the direct path of the affected unit's obsession is permissible.Since the FAQ answers "Yes" to that exact question, I'm going to have to disagree with you. There's no "but only" clause in the FAQ.