PDA

View Full Version : Dark Eldar Tid Bit



AdmiralDick
30-11-2007, 20:52
feel free to call BS on me if you wish. i personally don't believe it myself. but i was just chatting to a friend of mine who was speaking to his GW regional manager, who said that their would be no Codex: Dark Eldar for the foreseeable future.

because of the shear number of models they would have to redo for the range, they are instead going to release a WD Codex, as the Blood Angels got, to tide the DE players over whilst they change the minis over.

and he gave the time frame for this as being before the Codex: Daemons.

also he said that the Eldar Jetbike prototype show at GD this year, was the DE prototype, but had yet to have DE type details added to it. (i guess this maybe half true and both types of Jetbike will have the same base sculpt, much like SM and CSM do.)

as i said, it doesn't sound all that likely to me, more like a tangle of some rumours and some wishful thinking to me. but i thought it was my duty to report back.

skrulnik
30-11-2007, 21:03
Thanks for the rumor.

I wouldn't think they would go to the WD codex thing again so soon after saying they would never do it again.
'Course, they could hope everyone forgot about that.

But I would like to see it happen.

Your theory on the bike sounds reasonable as well. Hasn't the rumor been that they would have a shared kit?

AdmiralDick
30-11-2007, 21:07
well, they're never going to introduce another race because it would take up too much resources either, after all they're in it for the long haul. oh, except Daemons.

silashand
30-11-2007, 21:15
I kinda doubt it since at least one part is blatantly false: it coming before Codex: Daemons. That particular project has been confirmed by GW at several venues as being released in May '08 so I'd take the rest of it with a grain of salt. About the only thing I do believe is that almost the entire model range needs redoing. I have to agree because IMO 95% of the Dark Eldar figs are just plain butt-ugly and it's one of the reasons I was never interested in them. JMO though...

Cheers, Gary

WordBearer
30-11-2007, 21:31
well, they're never going to introduce another race because it would take up too much resources either, after all they're in it for the long haul. oh, except Daemons.Daemons is less a new race and more an expansion of an existing concept. Besides, it does double-duty on the model support due to Fantasy.

Feor
30-11-2007, 22:21
I dunno if Daemons coming out in May rules out a WD codex before it. A WD codex doesn't take a whole lot of effort to put out, especially if (horror of horrors :p) They're planning on making Dark Eldar be to the Eldar what Chaos Marines are to the Marines. Different, but still recognizably similar.

Sithlord
30-11-2007, 23:13
well dark eldar really do need rules to be change but somehow I don't like it because dark eldar are 'PRIMARY' races unlike blood angel who are 'SUB' race from space marines, If a race that do need rules overhaul through WD then it will be space wolves. Dark eldar deserve new codex with better background and gameplay rules. It don't need any MAJOR miniature overhaul just like current ork new codex and their minis.

WordBearer
30-11-2007, 23:21
well dark eldar really do need rules to be change but somehow I don't like it because dark eldar are 'PRIMARY' races unlike blood angel who are 'SUB' race from space marines, If a race that do need rules overhaul through WD then it will be space wolves. Dark eldar deserve new codex with better background and gameplay rules. It don't need any MAJOR miniature overhaul just like current ork new codex and their minis.Actually, I'd say the Dark Eldar figures are a major weak point of the line right now. They look as shabby as Eldar used to.

tangerinealtoid
30-11-2007, 23:21
GW is a business first and foremost, and it seems unlikely that they would bother dedicating white dwarf pages to support a race when they aren't really trying to push sales on those minis. The Blood Angels codex made sense, they're different enough to possibly get players to buy a another marine army and paint them red. Putting out a dark eldar codex wouldn't really accomplish the same thing. Why not just save all their new codex ideas for the big push when they have the new dark eldar mini line ready in a couple of years.

Bregalad
01-12-2007, 00:07
A WD DE Codex would allow GW to massively expand the complete DE background from 2 pages to 2 1/2 :rolleyes:

DE players don't need nerfed rules (as these are the only things good now), they need completely newly written background and a completely renewed model range.

Thanks for giving us this rumour, but I don't believe it either, like all other WD Codex rumours that didn't get the special reasons for a BA WD Codex.

And yes, it was always common rumour, that there will be a dual DE/Eldar jetbike with bits for both, but that the DE release would allow for a new plastic kit (no room in the Eldar release).

Hokiecow
01-12-2007, 00:41
I highly doubt this greatly. I believe they are putting the same effort in as was given to the Orks. I have to believe there will be some new units in the next Dark Eldar codex and to put that in WD and not release the models for some time? Nooo.

AdmiralDick
01-12-2007, 01:40
I kinda doubt it since at least one part is blatantly false: it coming before Codex: Daemons.

well, as i stated before i don't think its true. but it is at least plausable.

i think the majority of us are agreed that DE rules are not that bad as they are. a few units need tweaking and special rules adjusting, but otherwise they are still pretty sound. so if they were not planning on giving them anything 'new', but simply up-dating the current codex then it doesn't tax the imagination too much to think that it might slip into WD outside the normal Codex schelduel. Codex: BA's did. no other codex would need to be pushed back for that.

and don't forget how long it took for the Codex: Eldar to come out. could they not have been developing them along side one another and simply being waiting for a good moment to release the other?

the implication my friend gave was that it would be more of an excuse to release some new models than a decent codex. and its not like GW don't flip-flop all over the place with their iron clad policies.

again, i still don't believe it, but the more i consider it the more it seems like a possibility if not an reality.

shin'keiro
01-12-2007, 06:57
There was also a rumour way back when that DE and Eldar were going to be in the same codex!
Nice rumour though about the WD codex... IMO they should release DE before Daemons...

scheppo
01-12-2007, 08:01
Actually, I'd say the Dark Eldar figures are a major weak point of the line right now. They look as shabby as Eldar used to.

Well yeah, Dark Eldar Minis are the worst in the range... heaviliy contested by the chaos cybot (what were they thinking?), but I think the Eldar models have always been fine... well okay some of the third ed minis haven`t been that great, but they overall certainl didn`t suck.

As for the rumors: I can`t imagine that the prototype was intended for DA, because not only did it look unspikey, the whole design was rather smooth. DA-models always have sharp edges and look kinda scaly. The prototype didn`t have any of that.

Darkseer
01-12-2007, 08:02
I think I'll dismiss this as gossip.

The DE plastics will probably get a chaos marinesque overhaul in the future with some new plastics like wyches added to the mix.

Of course, this is wild speculation...but it follows suit with current trends and makes sense.

IncubiLord
01-12-2007, 08:46
I don't know...

If you look at this thread (http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81703), Brimmy seems to have been implying that the DE would get a WD codex when he posted back in July.

It's plausible.

superknijn
01-12-2007, 09:21
People thought the First world War would be the war to end all wars. Apparently, they were wrong.

Bregalad
01-12-2007, 09:58
I don't know...

If you look at this thread (http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81703), Brimmy seems to have been implying that the DE would get a WD codex when he posted back in July.

It's plausible.
Read again, he is talking about DE getting a pleasant REAL Codex:
http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81703&page=5

And that is what everybody is expecting now.

Crazy_Irish
01-12-2007, 10:30
I would like a WD codex, because the DE rules are not all bad, but thats only about 40-50% of the Rules. The rest are not bad, they suck. Its as bad as that. I would realy like to play mandraks, Hellions, or grotesks, but they are just useless.

And with a WD codex they could take some time to make a realy nice modle range.
so let it come;-) and befor Codex Deamons would be a plesure!

Ironhand
01-12-2007, 12:56
I tend to disbelieve it personally. Much of the issue with the current DE revolves around the unattractive (to most people anyway) model range, not the rules, so GW really doesn't gain much by doing a WD Codex for the DE.

I find the rumor of a completely redone COdex and model range in late 2008 - early 2009 far more plausible.

Mort
01-12-2007, 13:44
At least it would make more sense to release a complete new codex with new models and so on than giving those few people who still play DE new stripped doen rules for the obviously ugly model range.
If GW wants to sell more stuff they should be aware that a new model range works better than 3 pages in the WD.
So i have my doubts if this rumor is true...

Blarp
01-12-2007, 16:42
BS indeed. The models are plain awful, but the codex is still more or less balanced with 4th ed. I still expect a DE codex within the next year or two.

Zelnik
01-12-2007, 16:55
I certainly hope this is not the case, no offense, but GW has had more then enough time to redo the range, the concept of actually having to work should not be too harsh for them.

Gralph!?!
02-12-2007, 19:39
from what i can tell, this rumour seems to be fairly unreliable. if we could know which regional manager it was who said it then we could at least get some sort of clue as to its plausability. if it is that colin guy thin it will be false if not it may hold credit.

in my opinion alot of the models that the dark eldar have are fairly reasonable at least not great but not bad either it is simply that the paint jobs that GW gave them as the codex scheme was utter crap. red body and a silver head is a god aweful choice of schemes.

if the prototype jetbike is suppossed to be for both eldar and dark eldar then i will have to get a fairly large supply of the current ones as they are damn nice in comparison to the current eldar bike. he rider is a little wimpy looking is all but the bike is gold. the only real things that are needed for the dark eldar model range are better warp beast models which DO NOT look like a large cat without any skin as surely that isn't what a victim sees in his death throes from torture. "oh noes, this really hurts.... i see something...... oh no luffy what have they done to you?!!!! blag n*dies*"

the raider needs a bit of an update as i get that it is suppossed to be armour 10 but that thing looks like a big engine and with an ineffective bulldover in the front. i like the ravager model as the extraarmour on the sides make it look far more alanced (hence it is my raider with out the extra guns)

and the main things that are needed are GOOD models for lords, the haemonuculus with the destructer is a nice model but the others aren't but the lords are utter crap, a lord would be rather lith and agile compared to the others due to thier high intiative and the like but they look like the came straight out of a very hardcore game of NFL. hell maybe a model for no'kaei would be cool..... mind you shewas a handmaiden for vect and as such he was probably a bit of a pedo and thus should be aflat chest..... yeah, vect is a pedo, we all know it.

AdmiralDick
02-12-2007, 22:34
I tend to disbelieve it personally. Much of the issue with the current DE revolves around the unattractive (to most people anyway) model range, not the rules, so GW really doesn't gain much by doing a WD Codex for the DE.


BS indeed. The models are plain awful, but the codex is still more or less balanced with 4th ed.

er... the implication was that because the codex was perfectly playable they were not going to redo it. rather they would update it and put it in WD. no point putting all those resources in when there are other armies that could use them better.

and the only reason to do a WD army list is to boost sales of newer miniatures, which would be introduced periodically until they felt that the range was 'modernised' enough to release an actual codex.

although, i'm still playing devils advocate here, because i'm not sure about it. it would stuff the release scheduel to the gills, which is not very wise (how do you build up enough enthusiasm for Daemons when people are only just getting over DE). and there are plenty of Codexes which still feature models that have been replaced at the time of release, so although it might make sense to hold off until some better plastic kits are made, its not impossible to go for it anyway.

DoctorTom
02-12-2007, 23:47
although, i'm still playing devils advocate here, because i'm not sure about it. it would stuff the release scheduel to the gills, which is not very wise (how do you build up enough enthusiasm for Daemons when people are only just getting over DE).

How do you build up enthusiasm for Apocalypse when people are just getting Chaos Marines? ;)

Samuell
03-12-2007, 00:54
About the only thing I do believe is that almost the entire model range needs redoing. I have to agree because IMO 95% of the Dark Eldar figs are just plain butt-ugly and it's one of the reasons I was never interested in them.


I have to agree with garry. Now that the orks got their big revival, DE is the only race left to recindle. It's also the biggest project, because in my opinion ALL the models have to be totally redesigned, not that that'll happen, but they'll need alot more plastics and extra special characters to make the DE stand out more. So far they are the most bland race, more and deeper fluff is an absolute must. Therefore I don't think they'll bring out some WD supplement, instead they'll hopefully surprise us all with a totally new line of models and a banging codex in the coming years.
This may be wishfull thinking on my part, but I'll keep hoping. :D

PS: I think we'll see them sooner rather then later, since the release of DOW-Soulstorm is planned for spring 2008 and it would form a great marketing opportunity for GW to put 2 and 2 together and get people interested in the DE again.

Hokiecow
03-12-2007, 11:37
It's also the biggest project, because in my opinion ALL the models have to be totally redesigned, not that that'll happen, but they'll need alot more plastics and extra special characters to make the DE stand out more.

I'm sure they will work from current Eldar models. That would not make it as large of an effort. For example, the jetbike will be the same. The standard warrior could look simular but with (I know, I know...) spikes. :cries:

Warhammer Dude
08-12-2007, 04:50
Well, I love some of the models like the warriors, talos, ravager, jet bikes (not so much the riders) and raider. I'm not a fan of everything else.

demondriven
08-12-2007, 06:08
Would seem plausible that there would be some sort of DE release to coincide with Soulstorm. As far as miniatures, plastic wyches would be a gift from Slaanesh him/herself. As for rules, hellions with power weapons would be equally delicious. I don't think the miniatures are really all that bad, except for the hair on that one plastic female(?) head. You know the one.

Daredhnu
08-12-2007, 07:51
er... the implication was that because the codex was perfectly playable they were not going to redo it. rather they would update it and put it in WD. no point putting all those resources in when there are other armies that could use them better.
what armies could use the effort better than DE? seriously their fluff sucks i need atleast 10 times more fluff next time (minimum) most of their models need to be redone and a few of the unit choices need to be buffed so that they are worth taking (mandrakes, hellions & scourges namely)

so the only army that needs the effort is dark eldar

so a WD codex will not do, no sir, not at all.

Hokiecow
08-12-2007, 09:21
Would seem plausible that there would be some sort of DE release to coincide with Soulstorm. As far as miniatures, plastic wyches would be a gift from Slaanesh him/herself. As for rules, hellions with power weapons would be equally delicious. I don't think the miniatures are really all that bad, except for the hair on that one plastic female(?) head. You know the one.

Do you really believe that? If so, do you think they will give the same love to the Sisters of Battle?

Jon_Irenicus
08-12-2007, 10:53
I think that the current trend to plastify the range could do well with the Dark Eldar - I mean, why not? Didn't they do the same for the Wood Elves, thus taking them out of the corner they sat in for years? Besides, during the Eldar release, it was implied that they wanted to do all the Aspect Warriors in plastic, so it wouldn't surprise me if the Wyches got redone in grey - especially because they now can also be Troop choices.

They can make the DE a very attractive army, but they really do need to bring out new minis for nearly everything. Though, if Jes has His Hands on the job, I bet they'd sell like cake.

the1stpip
08-12-2007, 23:35
Jes does have his hands on the job. He has already completed his first DE prototype.

I agree, they need a lot of work. The Warriors are acceptable with a bit of work and effort, they need new (plastic) wyches, and most of the range needs revamping.

The only two models that don't really need re-doing are the Reavers and Incubi

Sithlord
09-12-2007, 00:25
and the big question remains.... do they revamped DE on early 2008 or late 2008 or not in 2008? I was getting pissed to have my raider easily shot down when playing on non-area terrain field.

Clockwork-Knight
09-12-2007, 03:37
Jes does have his hands on the job. He has already completed his first DE prototype.
Is there any picture of it anywhere? I sooooo want to see it, pretty please... :o

demondriven
09-12-2007, 04:25
Key word is "plausible". It would make sense that they would shine some new light on the DE range when Soulstorm comes out, in order to capitolize on people perhaps getting the DE bug from the game (provided they play well). But we all know that GW doesn't really care about logic and common sense, unless it involves them making a buck (or pound).
The Sisters probably wouldn't get a touch up, just because their codex is still relatively fresh, if un-used. And all of their models are metal, which would require a bit more work to transfer even the troop choices to plastic.
But I don't know crap. I just throw money at GW and play their game (both table top and otherwise.......).

Jon_Irenicus
09-12-2007, 06:00
I read somewhere, a long long time ago, that they didn't redo SoB was because they didn't think it'd work out as well in plastic, as it'd be difficult to replicate the detail (I always said they accessorize too much - women, not GW. Then again...).

I have frankly no idea of what I'd like the DE to be, but I sure as hell want GW to surprise me. But the DE would be a relatively fresh release, as opposed to more Marines or more recent races (anyway, who'd deserve it more than them? Even the Orks got some love!), and they're only a niche market because GW chose to leave them in there. When people stress that fact, I ask them to remember the revamp the Wood Elves got.

Gorbad Ironclaw
09-12-2007, 06:48
and the big question remains.... do they revamped DE on early 2008 or late 2008 or not in 2008? I was getting pissed to have my raider easily shot down when playing on non-area terrain field.


Well, early 2008 isn't possible. You have Orks, Vampire Counts and Demons taking up the first half of the year. I don't think ther is room for a DE book as well.

the1stpip
09-12-2007, 17:24
I don't think it will be until 2009.

If you are sick of having Raiders shot down, then use a WWP.

Sithlord
10-12-2007, 00:22
I don't think it will be until 2009.

If you are sick of having Raiders shot down, then use a WWP.

ummm, what's a WWP? Wyches Wyches Peanut:angel:

Splata
10-12-2007, 00:27
I don't think it will be until 2009.

If you are sick of having Raiders shot down, then use a WWP.


If you are sick of raiders being shot down play another army.

I don't belive that will change. Maybe we will get funky disembarking rules ala the orks. But to make them nigh impenetrible like the eldar would not be cool as it would erode the fabric of what the DE are; fast and lethal but if they get caught they will be dead. Very dead.

cowzrnomatoh
10-12-2007, 00:33
ummm, what's a WWP? Wyches Wyches Peanut:angel:

Lol close but no cigar..
Web-Way portal.
Guy takes it and moves and deploys it right next to him and rolls for reserves for people to pop out and assualt and kill everything.

Sithlord
10-12-2007, 01:36
web way portal is nice idea but it costly and I need to take at least 2 to use it correctly. and if only webway portal were not made to be a 'heavy weapon' type, it should made DE easier to call their friends.
I was thinking if DE is ever revamped, they fix night shield vehicle upgrade to made raider/ravager into a night fighting test. It should give chances that on 1st turn, raider would not shot down easily.

Clockwork-Knight
10-12-2007, 02:10
We're going to get new rules in the coming year, appearently, and a new Dark Eldar codex too, as it has been hinted many times over, so they might get a major overhaul, or be added in some things (although I don't think that). I doubt that they'll stick to much to the half-assed vehicle upgrades too much and try to streamline it even more, however this should be.

So, let's not worry about Webway portals, night shields and similar things too much.

The most important thing for sure is that the army becomes not only playable to a hard-core dedicated fanbase who is willing to go through the ardious learning process how to win with them after several hard losses, because that doesn't bring in money at all.
Warhammer 40k is after all a game franchise meant to make money, first and foremost.

Those game factions that are unsuccessfull will get less support than the golden boys like the Space Marines.

Sithlord
10-12-2007, 08:04
to be honest, space ****** are not the actual hero in galaxy.... instead it should have been the imperial guard since they who always keep fighting and dying in every part of galaxy. GW should have promote IG more than space marines.
regarding DE, I hope in their revamped codex they still keep their major traits that I like... it's FAST, FRAGILE and *******' DIRTY army (on last notch, many of my friends are bugger on poison weapon, agonizer and combat drugs wargear :) ).

Splata
11-12-2007, 00:39
This isn't the place but IG aren't heros no one is.

From their own factional POV each entity is its own hero. Each entity is doing what it believes is correct.
The reason SM are promoted is they are the knights in shining armour that can take a beating and still pan it out. They are super human monstrocities and this is something that kids find very attractive.

Fast and fragile i will agree with. Dirty. Now i'm not sure about this one. We are very precise. We cut throughy an army precisly and if we don't we die.
The poison weaponry is something that makes us who we are. It is like a powerfist but not as strong, but then not as slow either. In reality the current poison doesn't really do all that much. It helps with the wounding, which is somehting we have great difficulty with but it doesn't make people explode or turn into gibbering pinning causing nut cases, which could be very cool (much like the old shrieken shrieker ammo for the shuriken cannon).

Although this last point I raise does impinge on my view of dark eldar, which is a very precise force. Everything goes like clock-work. We play the opposition into our hands and then cut them down piece by piece. Toying with them at every step of the way. How you build that into the game, that is difficult. But we have a very good start with the current speed of the army.

Cuda
11-12-2007, 02:04
A few things; the Dark Eldar Codex is fine. Maybe Hellions can use some interesting options, but other than that, I really don't see a problem with the current DE Codex. I have 6 armies (4 Chaos, Witch Hunters & DE) I'd have to say that my DE army has bagged me the most victories and are the most enjoyable to play. Granted, there is a rather steep learning curve involved and they have a rough time against some armies, but once over the hurdle they become a very lethal army.
Your going to lose Raiders & Troops. Use more, and utilize the 'wrecked' Raider for cover.
Grotesques are not useless, try marching them across the Tau lines.
Ugly Models? You would'nt say that if you've seen my all female Wyches. You know, you can easily use the Fantasy Battle Dark Elves Wyches with very minor conversions.
You Don't need an Archon to win a battle, the Dracon is just as good.

At the local GW the rumours were that the DE will be dumbed down, I hope not, and I hope that everything I've heard are just rumours.

Cuda...

Jerichoholic104
11-12-2007, 02:34
I couldn't agree more. I just took my Dark Eldar to an apocalypse tournament this weekend and they were dominate. I don't want them to change anything really.

Cuda
11-12-2007, 02:40
I couldn't agree more. I just took my Dark Eldar to an apocalypse tournament this weekend and they were dominate. I don't want them to change anything really.

That's right Brother! My next Apocalypse game will have a Night Lords/Dark Eldar team-up. What excuse do I need! Don't have to be a master of the obvious to catch that one!


Cuda...

Clockwork-Knight
11-12-2007, 02:50
Ugly Models? You would'nt say that if you've seen my all female Wyches. You know, you can easily use the Fantasy Battle Dark Elves Wyches with very minor conversions. The very fact that you suggest one should use Dark Elf models instead of the original Dark Eldar ones should be proof enough that the current miniature line is subpar.

And for that regard, I personaly consider the Witch Elves from Warhammer Fantasy Battle to be ugly too. The prettiest female models for now are the Daemonettes, and if you would take enough effort, you could surely turn them into awesome female Dark Eldar Wyches. However, Dark Eldar Wyches also have male gladiators, so they shouldn't be neglected. Using Wood Elf Wardancers would surely be appropriate in my opinion, but that might rather be because they don't have top-knots, which I totally abhor about the current male Wych miniatures...

Cuda
11-12-2007, 03:19
The very fact that you suggest one should use Dark Elf models instead of the original Dark Eldar ones should be proof enough that the current miniature line is subpar.

And for that regard, I personaly consider the Witch Elves from Warhammer Fantasy Battle to be ugly too. The prettiest female models for now are the Daemonettes, and if you would take enough effort, you could surely turn them into awesome female Dark Eldar Wyches. However, Dark Eldar Wyches also have male gladiators, so they shouldn't be neglected. Using Wood Elf Wardancers would surely be appropriate in my opinion, but that might rather be because they don't have top-knots, which I totally abhor about the current male Wych miniatures...

I have traded with fellow DE players and have an all-female Wyche squad.
They are painted beautifully and are not ugly to me. I used WFB Wyche Elves for variety and they are painted just as good. All the male figures in my army are heavy weapons & rapid fire squads and the assault portion of my army are all females. I agree, top-knots look pretty stoopid.

Cuda...

Clockwork-Knight
11-12-2007, 03:38
If you like them and have put effort to paint them, then kudos to you. However, the fact remains that the entire Dark Eldar miniature line is one of the oldest in current use and it wasn't put that much effort to them when compared to other things.

I sure hope that the guys who designed the current Wood Elf-units are going to work on the newest Dark Eldar batches. Alternatively, the current Daemonette-figurines are also superb, so the ones who sculpted them may hopefully also work on the DE. They might be the one and the same, as I'm not that well-versed in miniature production.

RedShirt
11-12-2007, 03:39
DE at apocolyspe always leads to distruction......Personally, I dropped a Titan which had a Catastophic Meltdown. It hit the other Titan which only had 1 SP left which also had a meltdown. Between the 2 they took out over 1/3 of all the models on the board :)

Crazy_Irish
11-12-2007, 09:32
Anyone for a Super-Havy-Dark-Eldar-Raider? I'm constructing one with vihicle-construction-rules. Its about twice as long as a Raider and 3 times as wide, and it can transport up to 20 Models. Ill fill it up with Incubbi, that will be great fun.
Oh it will also be well armed.....har har har....

Cuda: Your point was a bit weak;-) Saying that DE Models are nicy and than pointing at your Warhammer models XD but it seems that you just mixed them with die normal Hagashin so have more variation, thats another part of the Modelrange. Mandraks, Hellions, Grotesks, Lords, Talos: they have very little spaces for variation. But i agree with you, that if you paint them right, they can look very good. But they are still behind the other armys with the quality.

Splata: I like your idea of "us". I find it fitting and would also like more freaking weapons, that not just help us wound, but kill the enemy.

Sithlord
11-12-2007, 10:45
DE models are nice, like I said before some of them don't need change like warriors , incubis and wyches.
DE in apocalypse actually rock!!! I used splinter raid force to harass my enemies before they even have chances to strike back. Raider count as flyer mean they are safer for not getting shot at on first turn. And IMO this is DIRTY battle formation (and *******' DIRTY tactics) since splinter raid force would not appear on tabletop if your enemy take the first turn.

@crazy_Irish
this is off topic though, if you wish to make a super heavies for DE I suggest you count that 'heavy raider' as thunderhawk gunship (I'll let you think yourself why I chose thunder hawk gunship profile for DE heavy raiders)

Onisuzume
11-12-2007, 11:30
I'd have to considder it at least plausible for the DE to be released near the time that Soulstorm is released. Which would be summer 2008, so maybe even august/september. A date which doesn't sound that unlikely.

As for the models: warriors... well... mixed feeling.
Incubi: excellent models imo. no need to change them.
Wyches: maybe a bit of a fine-tuning so they're more up-to-date.

UlricDarksoul
11-12-2007, 14:30
If you want a superb model, there is a red shirt in spain, (he used to work at the Bernabeu GW-store but last time i saw him, he was at ramůn de la cruz) in madrid. This guy, Aaron, made an incredible Asdruval Vect figure. really, if you can, try to find him

Anyway, with the miniature range... incubi are great, but need a larger range of positions... wyches should change name to gladiators... as the spanish translation makes the guys a lot gay (translated as witches in femenine form) Also some other girls wyches would be nice (love them to be pretty & lethal). the warriors need too some work...

Definitively, the warp beasts need work...

and so on...

Ouroboros
11-12-2007, 14:35
If you are sick of raiders being shot down play another army.

I don't belive that will change. Maybe we will get funky disembarking rules ala the orks. But to make them nigh impenetrible like the eldar would not be cool as it would erode the fabric of what the DE are; fast and lethal but if they get caught they will be dead. Very dead.

It would make sense for them to get something like the Orks, or maybe only wounded on 6s from having a transport destroyed and no pinning. They're evil Eldar ninjas riding on giant community surfbords with jet engines on the back. They should be able to just jump off and do an evil ninja roll when **** starts going obviously wrong.

Marinox
11-12-2007, 14:42
my money is on getting something that makes them harder to hit the farther away they are.

like raiders come with a new and improved night shield or something.

it would give the army a unique flavor and help with having our paper airplanes shot down.

Kellindel
11-12-2007, 14:59
A few things; the Dark Eldar Codex is fine. Maybe Hellions can use some interesting options, but other than that, I really don't see a problem with the current DE Codex. I have 6 armies (4 Chaos, Witch Hunters & DE) I'd have to say that my DE army has bagged me the most victories and are the most enjoyable to play.

That's what I'm talking about!!!


You Don't need an Archon to win a battle, the Dracon is just as good.


Here Here!!!!


At the local GW the rumours were that the DE will be dumbed down, I hope not, and I hope that everything I've heard are just rumours.

I know exactly what you mean. Unfortunately in order to give back to the DE they need to either jack them up beyond what they are or take away from everyone else.

Reavers are no longer the Crotch-Rockets they were meant to be. Yeah I guess they move like CW Eldar Jetbikes but who wants that!?!?! I want to be the only guy at the table that can send squads of screaming wytches down the board to either carve up the enemy or die.

In all honesty I think the Hellions as they are now is a vast improvement. I've had many successes with them since.

A few units need a tweek here and there, but they all serve their purposes pretty well as they are now.

ghost21
11-12-2007, 17:27
ok thanks for the info dude

but ive heard they have started on preliminary designs for dark eldar

Aethyr
11-12-2007, 19:00
I just hope that they dont nerf ior genrealize the Dark Eldar to far, *sighs at the current Blood Angels*. It would be a real shame to have such a menacing, dark and piraty race reduced for balance. By which I mean rather crap universal rules with no character that represents the race.

Damn you GW developers (except for J.J.) I wanted my blood crazed Flesh Tearers as what they should be.... blood crazed! Not just Marines with combat squads and more options for assault units.

AdmiralDick
11-12-2007, 21:39
DE models are nice, like I said before some of them don't need change like warriors , incubis and wyches.

well, much as you may personally like the models you are unfortunately in the minority. many of the posters on this thread have said they like some if not all of the models in the range, but then you have to realise that this thread is unlikely to attract the majority of general gamers because they are simply not interested in the race (mostly beause of the models).

speaking personally, i don't think that there are any models in the range that are worthy of 'good model' status (Haemonculus are about the best sculpted, the rest are far too blocky or poorly posed). i can accept that there are models that some like even if i (and a geat deal of other people) don't like them, such as the Incubi, but i have no doubt in my mind that if they re-did them, it would be perfectly possible to come up with a model that totally surpasses the current one's in both our minds.


I'd have to considder it at least plausible for the DE to be released near the time that Soulstorm is released. Which would be summer 2008, so maybe even august/september. A date which doesn't sound that unlikely.

well, with all this talk of 5th edition on the horizon the scheduel is getting awefully full, and if 4th ed came and went without DE getting anything it will give off the message that GW have cut them from the game. which to my mind makes it even more plausable that they will publish a WD codex that changed basically nothing, but brings wording and options up to date. which is really all that was mentioned to me when i started this thread.


I just hope that they dont nerf ior genrealize the Dark Eldar to far, *sighs at the current Blood Angels*. It would be a real shame to have such a menacing, dark and piraty race reduced for balance. By which I mean rather crap universal rules with no character that represents the race.

i would expect to see the DE take the same route as DA, BA, Eldar, Chaos and Orks. there'll likely be only one of each 'type' of HQ choice, so no more 2 and 3 wound versions. no more retinues. i guess the FOC position of Wyches will be set in stone (likely troops), so that if you want a 'wych cult' army you can make it from the same list as a regular army. i would also imagine that they will be made more middle ground (not quite as fast, nor as hard hitting as they used to be) to make them more friendly to those people not willing to spend time and energy learning how to use them. and things that are 'random' will likely become even more random, to the point of uselessness.

biadetic
11-12-2007, 22:30
i for one would love to see DE being completely revamped. theyd be awesome :)

Zerosoul
11-12-2007, 22:43
I'd have to considder it at least plausible for the DE to be released near the time that Soulstorm is released. Which would be summer 2008, so maybe even august/september. A date which doesn't sound that unlikely.

As for the models: warriors... well... mixed feeling.
Incubi: excellent models imo. no need to change them.
Wyches: maybe a bit of a fine-tuning so they're more up-to-date.

I think I may be the only person alive that actually likes the Warriors. Yeah, the helmets are massive and could do with some scaling down so it doesn't look like their wee little elf necks are going to snap under the strain, but I kind of like the general look of them. Only heads I've never used are the top-knotted doofy guy and the Bride of Frankenstein(which is truly an awful head). Oh, and I just don't glue the fiddly little spikes on except as decorations or sights for the splinter rifles. But the general design I sort of dig.

I hope the Incubi do change personally. I don't like the weird-looking tail on top of the helm(I know what it IS, I just think it looks goofy). I think they should look sleeker, not like a Dairy Queen ice cream cone. I would love to see something akin to the Striking Scorpions, who I think are fantastic sculpts. Just something sleeker and I'd be great with them.

Wyches I think need a rework from the ground up. GW is much, much better at sculpting faces than most of their competition, and I would like to see some more Wych sculpts. I honestly am betting these end up plastic, though. Warp beasts are also horrid. They should change.

Marinox
11-12-2007, 23:38
i'll just be happy with a couple of deliciously evil looking DE lords.

with the exception of the warp beasts, i don't dislike any of the models. though with the sexiness of the new quins, i'm quite anxious to see the wytches.

Sithlord
12-12-2007, 00:06
I really hope DE get night fighting universal special rule as their 'basic save' (marines depend on 3+ armor, guards and orks depend on numbers, etc).

UlricDarksoul
12-12-2007, 13:44
for wishful rules, i rather have the raiders like: move the long distance AND dissembark, or moving 90 as the wave serpent do (hey, raiders are THE fastest vehicules in the universe!! even more Dark Eldar are the fastest race in the universe!)

also with the jetbikes... let them move 90 cm, and not assault, and they will become more characterful as they where at the begining of 3th ed. The thing is, that if a race get a superb rule, don't spread it to the rest... more over, if this rules is in what the faction is characterised for, then No Way spread it to the rest of races!!

Crazy_Irish
13-12-2007, 13:05
I think the jetbikes should have the chains, wich where usually in their box. Lett them fly over an enemy unit and it takes D6 wounds/hits, that would be fluffy!

As for making the raiders more tuff, they should have something that makes them less visible to the eye, like the night sight rules but maybe not so tuff.
What i hope ist, that the Special Characters become legal hq uints like the new Eldar and SM. I would love to play "the Hengman"(dont no his name in englisch)legaly , with his 4 Arms his spezial deployment rules(even tough i think they will be exchanged with the deployiment ruels of the Tyranid Lictor).

And please GW, please live them fast, or even make them faster!

Bloodknight
13-12-2007, 14:24
Decapitator's the guy's name :)

The German version called him Dunkler Henker (Dark Hangman) instead of the more correct Scharfrichter (the type of executioner who uses a sword or axe (literally translated "sharp judge")).

ChaosMaster
13-12-2007, 14:31
... it seems unlikely that they (GW) would bother dedicating white dwarf pages to support a race when they aren't really trying to push sales on those minis.
They don't have to push the minis, they sell just fine on their own. I recently learned that the Dark Eldar minis sell just as well now that they are Direct Only (in the US) as they did when they were on shelves, so there has been no need to advertise them or bring them back into the stores when they have a fairly consistent rate of sale as they are.

I also don't see why a White Dwarf Codex update would be precluded by any ongoing new merchandise projects like the Daemons Codex. I haven't heard anything about this myself, but it seems plausible even if it turns out not to be true.

Sithlord
14-12-2007, 00:05
yup, most people who post their posting in here will surely have a collection of dark eldar models (including warriors, who some posters say them sucks but very high possibly they HAVE it!).

Clockwork-Knight
14-12-2007, 00:45
Of course you would have them, if you started in 3rd edition. They still look horrible, especially compared to all the other miniatures that GW brought out since then.

Straha
14-12-2007, 03:01
I'd love a Dark Eldar redo, but I'm not holding my breath. I can't really see GW putting a lot of effort into an army their stores don't carry. Everything would either be mail order or something currently on the shelves has to go.

Maybe they could carry the new DE range (if there is one) in the Battle Bunkers.

ScooterinAB
14-12-2007, 06:46
well, with all this talk of 5th edition on the horizon the scheduel is getting awefully full, and if 4th ed came and went without DE getting anything it will give off the message that GW have cut them from the game...

I would like to point out that "4th has come and gone" and a lot of armies did not get a new army book. By your assumption, the IG, and all the Inquisiton armies are being cut (not to be a dick, I'm just punching a truck sized hole in your arguement).

5th edition has not been annouced yet. Unless things have really hit the fan without me noticing, I doubt they would release a new edition halfway through the releases of the current one. Bad practice.


I can't really see GW putting a lot of effort into an army their stores don't carry. Everything would either be mail order or something currently on the shelves has to go.

Why wouldn't the stores be able to carry an updated army? They carry everything else for 40k.

UlricDarksoul
14-12-2007, 12:07
it was posted before, DE have consistent sales by mail order, instead by store. Is a hard to play army, so it's not popular. As it is not popular, they cut them from the stores... as they did with the adeptus sororita (which i think is another great army)

for a store, is easier to have marines (SM & CSM) 'cause they are more popular, and are good & evil and all that stuff...

Anyway, having DE makes me an exclusive in here, as i and another 4 dudes plays with the army... no more (in a rather small market anyway, as there are around 50 people playing 40k...)

AdmiralDick
16-12-2007, 18:26
I would like to point out that "4th has come and gone" and a lot of armies did not get a new army book. By your assumption, the IG, and all the Inquisiton armies are being cut (not to be a dick, I'm just punching a truck sized hole in your arguement).

fair enough, perhaps not a truck sized hole, but certainly a hole. perhaps then i should readdress my point. DE will be the only 'race' aside from SW who will not have had a codex since the release of 3rd. all other races (particularly INQ and IG) have had much newer Codexes wot a much newer design philosophy (although still one step behind the current one).


5th edition has not been annouced yet. Unless things have really hit the fan without me noticing, I doubt they would release a new edition halfway through the releases of the current one. Bad practice.

i'm not sure what you mean about being 'halfway through the release of the current one'. the life of the current game runs exactly as long as they say it does. it may be less time than other editions, but that's entirely up to the company. and they will not announce a new edition of the game until it is right upon us, because such an announcement will damage sales in the short term (not a smart move before Christmas). now that's not to say it will happen, just that you shouldn't feel too safe, just because you haven't heard anything official about it yet.


I'd love a Dark Eldar redo, but I'm not holding my breath. I can't really see GW putting a lot of effort into an army their stores don't carry. Everything would either be mail order or something currently on the shelves has to go.

the reason they do not carry DE stuff in stores at the moment is because the miniatures range needs redoing (certainly in the company's opinion if not in all the posters minds).

Revlid
16-12-2007, 19:03
I envision the new Dark Eldar as being basically Space Pirates from Metroid, but with slaving instead of domination, and Eldar instead of Crustaceans.

I would have expected the new book (with Wood Elf-style revitalised model range) to be out around the same time as Soulstorm - but that's around March... So a bit early.

AdmiralDick
17-12-2007, 09:27
I would have expected the new book (with Wood Elf-style revitalised model range) to be out around the same time as Soulstorm - but that's around March... So a bit early.

i think that's what this rumour is getting at. GW want to start releasing new DE models to revitalise the range before they publish a full on Codex, but the game has grown so much since their 'disappearence' that many gamers are just going to be ':wtf: what are these models about?'

so to bolster the miniatures that are being released for those who have no real idea who the DE are and to give something to the players who have been pining for a DE update if nothing else since the beginning of 3rd (well a bit after that, but who's counting) they might as well publish a minimum effort job in WD. simply update the absolutely necessary parts and leave the rest as is.

that way they are not trying to wedge another Codex in the already full scheduel and they will at least get something before the supposed demise of 4th ed.

again, i'd like to stress that i don't personally believe this to be true, but i have to concede that it is at least possible, and there are several good reasons as to why it might happen that way.

Cuda
17-12-2007, 17:58
Playing Dark Eldar one way or another made you unique, you walk in to your local hobby store and plop your army on the table pretty much insures you that you are and the only DE player there. Geographically speaking, this is what happens in my neighborhood. If I play 5 games that day, 4 will be against Marines. The only time I play against a different army is against my kids.
Maybe what most are saying is true, the DE need a change. Maybe I need to jump off the "Don't change my DE" attitude and accept or even embrace the change. When I'm at the local GW I see huge displays of Marine armies
that cover way too much space in an already cramped atmosphere. I'd like to see a little more devotion to the other armies...a little more attention and a lot more variety from other players.

Cuda...

Splata
17-12-2007, 21:55
I would not be suprised if DE were the first (or second after marines) release in 5th. Exactly like they were for 3rd. This does pose the problem of "will they rush them again?" but to that all i can say is that i bloody hope not! Hopefully they learnt their lesson and at least they've started work on it now

From the rumours floating around it appears that they won't change much in terms of units already available at least with the ones that work. eg. wyches and warriors. Although this is of course just hearsay.

Personally the thing i see as the biggest detraction for DE is their selection of models. The number of good models can be counted on one hand. This in itself lends credance to the fact that they will release images and models to drum up excitement. Make people go burko for the new models just like they did with the orks, which i think worked a treat!

A WD release would not do them justice. They have no fluffy as is a WD article would just compound this problem as it would allow them to get away without creating any new fluff and not injecting any more ideas into the list than there were in the last release which was a bit dull and uninventive.

On the marines and other races thing. That isn't going to change. Orks came close once. Years and Years ago but no one ever since and with the most players playing SM and CSM these days do not expect it to change any time soon!

AdmiralDick
17-12-2007, 22:05
A WD release would not do them justice. They have no fluffy as is a WD article would just compound this problem as it would allow them to get away without creating any new fluff and not injecting any more ideas into the list than there were in the last release which was a bit dull and uninventive.

i think if the WD thing was going to happen it would not be the be all and end all list for DE. i think that it would be a 'tide you over' list to pick up interest in the race again, as they start to release new miniatures. so that by the time they want to release a proper codex for them (i guess not long into 5th ed) they will already have most of the miniatures updated and a larger following than they currently do. that way all that would be left to release, miniatures wise, are new units that do not currently exist (if there are going to be any).

obviously, as others have pointed out the numbers don't quite add up on that one though, because there have been releases, such as the Wood Elves and Necrons, where a race has been given an entirely new miniatures range without those releases needing to be staggered. but then again, maybe its yet another fickle change in policy from GW.

Sithlord
18-12-2007, 00:18
new codex :
from models = little change
from gaming = hell, it should have been easy. FAST , FRAGILE and *******' DIRTY based army.
from fluff = why must we have headache on this, first fluff is about the eldar fall continued on pleasure cult existence and then they found new home on webway in which they called commoragh and then pleasure cult begin to realize that their soul is 'leech' by slanesh chaos gods and then each dark eldar start to slaughter everyone to leech their fellow soul and them came the savior named VECT suggesting on enslavery of lesser race (and consume their soul), and then the start of a kabal and then tale of couple of kabal who live both in commoragh AND outside of commoragh. END!

that's enough for a new codex to appear

Captain Micha
18-12-2007, 00:20
Given how massive the overhaul is for the Dark Eldar, I suspect this rumor is not true. A white dwarf article, in current trim would simply be a waste of space.

((I mean come on, De have some of the best rules in the game and they can't even sell those ***** models as it is)

TaoDeInsane
18-12-2007, 06:14
((I mean come on, De have some of the best rules in the game and they can't even sell those ***** models as it is)

I gotta agree. I would love to start a DE army, but I'm waiting til I find models I like to replace the Warriors and Wyches. I like the Incubi models, I like the Archon models, Ravagers/Raiders look good. But the Wyches are downright *****, even if you use Dark Elf Witches from the Fantasy range. I was even thinking of using Howling Banshees and Dire Avengers, and "spiky bitzing" them up a bit for Wyches and Warriors. a few blade additions, and the right paintjob, and they would work.

havik110
18-12-2007, 17:21
First off I love my DE rules. Fix the models that no one uses and be done with it for the codex (Models no one uses or if they do use they dont care about winning are Grotesques, scourges, hellions, and the talos)

These people are still eldar, they still use a lot of eldar technology so why not make a sleeker version of open topped eldar transport (just trim it down, i see like im the only one whos not a fan of the raiders and ravagers looks)

Instead of a retarded floating scorpion which is not fast in the fastest army in the game but is not a skimmer even though it hovers, give us a big evil looking wraith guard looking thing with no soul in it.

We need new models for everything but the incubi, and all of them need to be plastic but I dont want my guns bending. I want to be able to cut my foam like Im not an idiot for all the different shapes of the wholes we need for our warriors.

I could deal with a WD codex. Just dont dumb it down the way youve dumbed down every codex since Eldar. Remember we hit faster and harder then everyone (that means we shoot you with lots of lances and then have our 3 groups of wyches disembowel you. but we also die if a stiff wind hits us. Keep it like that.)

Very short version of all the crap i just typed above.
1. I would take a WD codex, just dont dumb down the DE. (they dont make you take a test to play WoW is my analogy here, i dont want the dumb@$$es playing DE).

2. Redo the entire line, but do them well. Some of the old eldar are better looking then the new but most of it is improved. (Remember just because they are "dark" doesnt mean they are hideous, they can be as proper as anyone they just want your soul)

3. Dont change the tactics AT ALL. (they are faster then anyone, they hit harder then anyone, they die if they are not in cover, raiders and ravagers are just movable terrain)

4. Our bikes are faster then yours, lower the price and let us move further (youve gone and taken what was ours and given it to everyone else, Give it back and then some)

5. I want to use scourges and hellions and mandrakes but they arent worth it and the mandrake champion makes me shoot milk out of my nose thinking about him.

UlricDarksoul
18-12-2007, 18:20
i agree with you, but, for now, the fastest army is the eldar, not the DE. waveserpent moves 90!! and it doesn't crash if you hit it (you'll have to make it explode to kill the users!)

anyway, i agree with your points. I don't care if the codex comes in a WD, i'll have it anyway, but i prefer a normal book. I like the "exclusivity" that the army gives to its users by been a dificult one to play with, i agree that most of the range is plain ugly and that the bikes should be even faster than the wave serpent...

Clockwork-Knight
19-12-2007, 00:12
Keep in mind however that the more "exclusive" the army is (meaning, the harder and difficult it is), the less people will want to stick with it and try to master the high difficulty curve that is needed to play with the army. The less people play it, the less models will be sold, and the less support it will get...
And no, before anybody says it, I'm not saying to make them elven space marines with spikes either, but the army playability and entree has to be made so that potential newcomers who might be interested in the army disposition and the background lore (haha!) won't give up too fast and stick with Space Marines (once again), or simply give up on Wh40k for all.
It doesn't matter how advanced you think you are yourself, if the army goes the way of the Dodo and the Squats.

Hokiecow
19-12-2007, 00:53
Keep in mind however that the more "exclusive" the army is (meaning, the harder and difficult it is), the less people will want to stick with it and try to master the high difficulty curve that is needed to play with the army. The less people play it, the less models will be sold, and the less support it will get...
And no, before anybody says it, I'm not saying to make them elven space marines with spikes either, but the army playability and entree has to be made so that potential newcomers who might be interested in the army disposition and the background lore (haha!) won't give up too fast and stick with Space Marines (once again), or simply give up on Wh40k for all.
It doesn't matter how advanced you think you are yourself, if the army goes the way of the Dodo and the Squats.

What's wrong with making a few armies that have a steep learning curve? I'm sure the vets will be up for the challenge. It adds another level of challenge to the game.

Champsguy
19-12-2007, 01:50
Given how massive the overhaul is for the Dark Eldar, I suspect this rumor is not true. A white dwarf article, in current trim would simply be a waste of space.

((I mean come on, De have some of the best rules in the game and they can't even sell those ***** models as it is)

DE don't have some of the best rules in the game. They have an army list with basically two powerful builds and no versatility. They work well in 1000-1750 games between two people with a decent amount of terrain (which is basically "the average"). Outside of the average, they are at a great disadvantage.

I don't think they even have a steep learning curve. It's a point and click army once you understand how they work. Raider Rush isn't really all that hard to understand.

DE need a COMPLETE rewrite. Their fluff can be summed up in two sentences (as someone above said -- they're evil eldar who live in the webway and never changed their ways, that's about it). Sorry, it can be summed up in ONE sentence. While other armies can also have simple explanations (Blood Angels are vampire space marines), the difference is that the one sentence on Dark Eldar is basically all that was ever written for them. There's virtually NOTHING else. At least Blood Angels have cool stories of Sanguinius, and those coffin things the scouts sleep in, and a whole book of random crap. Dark Eldar need some of that.

I can't believe a WD article is coming for DE. There's simply too much work that needs to be done. The Blood Angel WD was basically a quick little something with very few changes. The new DE list will need to be substantially different.

IncubiLord
19-12-2007, 07:56
DE don't have some of the best rules in the game. They have an army list with basically two powerful builds
If you're talking in competitive terms, that means they have some of the best rules in the game, doesn't it.
Also, DE have a few nicely-fluffy rules like Combat Drugs and Mandrakes' Hidden Deployment - from a fluffy-army perspective, these are some of the best rules in the game.

I don't think they even have a steep learning curve. It's a point and click army once you understand how they work. Raider Rush isn't really all that hard to understand.
Raider Rush went out of fashion with 3ed. It's a gambler's tactic these days (there's this new-fangled thing called entanglement that really hurts paper-airplane transports).

The Dark Eldar do require more effort to use effectively than the blunt-instrument MEQ-armies. Whether this makes it a steep learning curve, a veteran's army, or just something beyond the grasp of a juvenile on a drinking binge is really a matter of opinion. They are an army for people who want to have to think and put forth effort to win.

Their fluff can be summed up in two sentences ... While other armies can also have simple explanations (Blood Angels are vampire space marines), the difference is that the one sentence on Dark Eldar is basically all that was ever written for them. There's virtually NOTHING else.
Comments like this indicate that somebody missed several months of WD articles in 3ed, the fluff for the DE which dwells within the CWE books, and possibly more. That somebody isn't me.

The DE probably have as much fluff as some of the SM Chapters - if you're willing to look for it.

Since a WD codex also includes a reprinting/summary of all the most-important fluff, you'd likely have several pages of information in such a DE codex that would amaze all the new-comers with their detail and yet be nothing new to the true veteran of the DE.

Heck, some of you probably still haven't read the Torturer's Tale - and that's available free on the GW UK site. :(

havik110
19-12-2007, 12:40
DE don't have some of the best rules in the game. They have an army list with basically two powerful builds and no versatility. They work well in 1000-1750 games between two people with a decent amount of terrain (which is basically "the average"). Outside of the average, they are at a great disadvantage.

I don't think they even have a steep learning curve. It's a point and click army once you understand how they work. Raider Rush isn't really all that hard to understand.

DE need a COMPLETE rewrite. Their fluff can be summed up in two sentences (as someone above said -- they're evil eldar who live in the webway and never changed their ways, that's about it). Sorry, it can be summed up in ONE sentence. While other armies can also have simple explanations (Blood Angels are vampire space marines), the difference is that the one sentence on Dark Eldar is basically all that was ever written for them. There's virtually NOTHING else. At least Blood Angels have cool stories of Sanguinius, and those coffin things the scouts sleep in, and a whole book of random crap. Dark Eldar need some of that.

I can't believe a WD article is coming for DE. There's simply too much work that needs to be done. The Blood Angel WD was basically a quick little something with very few changes. The new DE list will need to be substantially different.

for the most part I believe DE have the advantage in all fights minus horde armies, necrons, and Craft world eldar. Nothing is better at killing marines IMO then 5 sniper teams and 3 ravagers with 4 groups of wyches and a twinked out archon. The reason we will get nurfed is that marine players dont want to play the Lance heavy army.

The real skilled players are the ones that yo watch tear apart orks and nid lists. The real lucky ones (like me)take out monoliths on accident after failing target priority tests :)

If you think of it now we have very few options that make us competitive (id say only the lance heavy 3 or 4 groups of wyches and archon list is our only competitive list) and thats exactly what GW is doing, dumbing down all the armies so there is only 1 competitive list or none at all. Its already done for you GW, just make us some models

randomalias
19-12-2007, 14:18
It's not that the Dark Eldar are really bad as such, it's just they lost alot to 4th Edition and need some small tweaks beside (besides the models which are a given). Right now there is no real reason to take anything other than Warriors, Wyches and Ravagers in a list because everything else is either poorly costed or just plain useless. In fact I will post a thread on General (been done before but hey, new ideas dont hurt) to discuss some changes, as I felt the last similar thread went a bit radical in its ideas :D

Sithlord
23-12-2007, 13:37
Did you know that Asdruabel vect, lelith hesperax, urien karath, Talos, scourge (with exception of US, scourge already 'done' ) are being taken off the shelves??? Heard rumors that all of those will be re-packaged ( I say re-packaged not re-modelled!) in new box (though this already proven on my shop NEWEST order printform, you cannot order all those on UK printforms). But even MORE interesting rumor this also in preparation of new codex of dark eldar (don't know what form it is. either WD update or real codex but I hope it's REAL CODEX :)).
I got this from friend of mine who happened talk to red shirt over aussies :).

The_Outsider
23-12-2007, 20:17
Did you know that Asdruabel vect, lelith hesperax, urien karath, Talos, scourge (with exception of US, scourge already 'done' ) are being taken off the shelves??? Heard rumors that all of those will be re-packaged ( I say re-packaged not re-modelled!) in new box (though this already proven on my shop NEWEST order printform, you cannot order all those on UK printforms). But even MORE interesting rumor this also in preparation of new codex of dark eldar (don't know what form it is. either WD update or real codex but I hope it's REAL CODEX :)).
I got this from friend of mine who happened talk to red shirt over aussies :).

A lot of DE stuff has been pulled from the shelves for quite a while.

My local GW sells something like 7 DE sets/blisters and the codex.

winkypinky
23-12-2007, 23:03
((I mean come on, De have some of the best rules in the game and they can't even sell those ***** models as it is)

QFT

I have a DE army I i think it is very powerfull. And it does help a lot that 3+ save armies is favorite matchup in tournaments.

But those minis are horrible.

I painted my 1700 point army in 6 evening and late night sittings....
would not really waste more time on them

Vandelan
24-12-2007, 00:21
I'm planning on making DE my second army. Of course I'm entirely dedicated to Chaos, but when I get around to my second army, DE is it.

But yeah, from having seen the current warrior models, the DE are in a horrible need of an update for their model range, and a new 'dex wouldn't hurt either.

dagaudio
25-12-2007, 05:01
The real skilled players are the ones that yo watch tear apart orks and nid lists. The real lucky ones (like me)take out monoliths on accident after failing target priority tests :)

see ive never had any trouble against orcs, now it may be the people ive played against arent very formidable, but im undefeated against my older brother.

i think DE are an excellent army, it's just a matter of killing them before they can attack back, and diverting fire away from raiders with scarier more intimidating but not necessarily stronger models (talos comes to mind). If you play smart strike first and fast you shouldnt have too much trouble.

then again there are those games where the enemy gets first turn and sinks several raiders because you got screwed on terrain and when the grey knights psycannon your archon straight through his shadow field...

My biggest problem is the lack of diversity in the DE army, especially when compared to CW Eldar. We have very limited troop options...warrior, and warrior in raider. we have one good elite (granted its a great elite) in the wych, very meager fast attack, and well i do like the heavy supports (i know scourges get alot of guff, but ill live and die by four splinter cannons). I just want more options, i want a lord configuration that doesnt require the shadowfield.

But anyway this is kindve off topic, ive branched away from speculation over the next codex and model line. I assume that DE will be released in the fall/winter of 2008. Think about it, Soulstorm will bring DE back onto the radar and into the public eye and other cliche statements, and that comes out in the spring then over the summer they will probbably begin to intice us with promotion and sneak peeks. Obviously, Soulstorm will do well, considering the success of the other DOW games. Dark Eldar shall rise again...hopefully we wont get overpowered and straightforward and too forgving like fantasy high elves. The point of the dark eldar is to show no mercy even towards their own general.

Sidri
26-12-2007, 06:15
DE is quite a powerful army - my necrons were trashed by it a couple of times... Total destruction...
Although I view DE not only as wyches on raiders, but also as humble warriors and numerous meany units... Specialized and rare but deadly fast. I think, considering general line of GW, their close combat is gonna be nerfed and small shooty aspect to be raised...
And I damn hope they'll balance those angry S8 AP2-3 guns... My necrons don't stand a chance...

Bregalad
26-12-2007, 10:25
Guess, this belongs here (quote from another thread):


Ok, since its Christmas I'll spill what little I know. (...)

DE will come with an entirely new range of models (except for the jetbikes; I’ve been told these will probably stay as is for now...sorry). Don’t expect significant changes to the DE theme. They are still the light raider force and there will be only one new troop type in the list (hint....this troop type already exists in another list...duh). However they have re-tooled the less useful units to be more appealing. Mandrakes will be in every list (think units of mini lictors). Heavy weapons are gone (what?). All DE will carry Assault weapons (I guess this means dark lances will now be assault, ouch!). Splinter rifles will be 18” S3 Assault 2. Hit and Run will be a big part of the list with many units having the ability. I’ve heard that having a Raider will allow units to hit and run back onto it and fly off. I have no idea how this will work in game...or even if it’s true. It sounds a little farfetched to me. I wasn’t going to post any of this DE stuff as it came from some early playtest ideas that were spoken of in hushed tones at a Christmas party. It did NOT come from my usual contact, so I’m distrustful of its truthiness. But Smokedog made me feel guilty for not dropping anything for Christmas.;)

...so Merry Christmas!

Dosadi

Sithlord
26-12-2007, 11:16
hmm, I figured that DE warrior's 'assault weapon' (the current 12" inches weapon) are going to trash (already proven since GW sites DON'T SELL THE assault weapon blister ANYMORE!) though judging for WHAT should have been a dark eldar army. I think warrior will receive 'heavy weapon' with assault profile, dark lance will probably become assault and have reduce range (no more sniper team). I figured to reflect splinter rifle with little hit and run they should have 24" with S3 AP5 assault 1, otherwise if dark eldar fighting orks it would mean s#@t for DE life (this does mean that DE warrior have a basic cost of 10-12pts, IMO though to reflect to their pirate and low numbered units as they are always been).
the New troops unit will probably the WYCHES.... they deserved it. You can choose between hit and runner pirate raider DE warriors OR battle frenzied CC wyches.
Judging from raider comment, I probably figured that raider will automatically have scaling nets look alike ability (you can embark and disembark on same turn). Plus, if it is true maybe that all units which assault from raider on same turn will get HIT and RUN!
And finally mandrakes take turn as lictor! I hope they have poisoned weapon as standards.

UlricDarksoul
26-12-2007, 12:15
(wishful thinking) the raiders should work as taxis. I mean, they are so easily blown away that not even the squad that originaly starts asigned to one should be fond with the raider... so they could use any raider available for using it... only wishful thinking

Badger
26-12-2007, 12:21
"only one new troop type in the list (hint....this troop type already exists in another list..."

my money is on harlequins (and troop type doesnt mean that they are a "Troop" choice in the FOC)!

greetings Badger

The Dude
26-12-2007, 12:31
"only one new troop type in the list (hint....this troop type already exists in another list..."

my money is on harlequins

If you can find someone to take that bet, please tell them I have a bridge they can buy ;)

The_Outsider
26-12-2007, 14:28
Well its pretty obvious it should be harlies as their fluff dictates they help all eldar.

They already exist as well so they are far and beyond the most likely choice.

Crazy_Irish
26-12-2007, 15:02
Mh all models new? That would make no sence. Why make repacks if you are going to through them into the trash anyway..... the rest seems right. no correction in the theme and rules for the "lesser unit".
The idea with only assault weapons is great. and i would like to see taxi-raiders as UlricDarksoul sad, and a few "better" vehicle upgrades.

Sadly nothing about tortured psykers or Dark Eldar psykers, they could be so mean:evilgrin:

And thanks to Bregalad for quoteing and Dosadi for posting, what a nice christmas

Marinox
26-12-2007, 15:11
i'm quite skeptical about the quins as a troop choice as well. that would make me a sad panda.

however it does make me quite happy if they're sticking with the dark eldar play style... dance like a butterfly and sting like a bee !

IncubiLord
26-12-2007, 18:12
I think, considering general line of GW, their close combat is gonna be nerfed and small shooty aspect to be raised...
Don't count on it. Wyches really aren't nastier than Harlequins - and if the DE get more shooty potential they'll be a very sick army to see fielded. My DE have already outshot the Guard...

And I damn hope they'll balance those angry S8 AP2-3 guns... My necrons don't stand a chance...
Again, don't count on it. Dark Lances and Disintegrators are already fairly balanced weapons. The nerfing you want isn't likely if they plan on selling their new models.

You just have the misfortune of playing a MEQ against the DE. Expensive models with 3+ (or 2+) Saves are the easiest prey for the True Kin.

the New troops unit will probably the WYCHES
Those would not be new. You can use Wyches as Troops with the current DE codex (play a Cult army).

And finally mandrakes take turn as lictor! I hope they have poisoned weapon as standards.
Lictors have Rending. ;)

"only one new troop type in the list (hint....this troop type already exists in another list..."

my money is on harlequins (and troop type doesnt mean that they are a "Troop" choice in the FOC)!/QUOTE]
This seems the most likely to me as well.
[QUOTE=The Dude;2206850]If you can find someone to take that bet, please tell them I have a bridge they can buy ;)
Maybe you've missed out, but the Harlies are on our side. :p

i'm quite skeptical about the quins as a troop choice as well. that would make me a sad panda.
Unless Wyches moved to Troops...? ;)

Quite a few DE players are sure that Harlies belong in our list, and that's the way the fluff points. I'd not be surprised to see the Harlie entry from the CWE 'dex directly copied into the new DE codex.

Mh all models new? That would make no sence. Why make repacks if you are going to through them into the trash anyway.....
GW wants to sell the old models before they announce the new ones. New packaging may cost a bit to produce, but it's probably cheaper than eating half the cost of all the DE minis they haven't sold (I presume they won't manage to completely liquidate their old line before the new one is announced here).

Meanwhile, all-new-models has been the line for some time now. It's actually quite normal for an entire line of GW models to be replaced over the course of two editions of the game (and since DE were first released at the beginning of 3ed, having a new range late in 4ed would be roughly on-schedule), and the boys at GW have been expressing their displeasure over the DE models for a while.

A big chunk of the range tends to get replaced with every batch of codices, and by the time they're looking at another, they'll decide that the models which weren't replaced last time are looking dated.

The_Outsider
26-12-2007, 18:20
Quite a few DE players are sure that Harlies belong in our list, and that's the way the fluff points. I'd not be surprised to see the Harlie entry from the CWE 'dex directly copied into the new DE codex.


Therein lies a problem - a direct copy and paste means DE harlies will have to be walking everywhere.

Supremearchmarshal
26-12-2007, 19:21
Again, don't count on it. Dark Lances and Disintegrators are already fairly balanced weapons. The nerfing you want isn't likely if they plan on selling their new models.

I hope they make them more expensive or available to less models - 30 Dark Lance gunline armies are just cheesy and boring.


Unless Wyches moved to Troops...?

Most likely taking an Archite will allow Wyches as troops.

Fable
26-12-2007, 19:22
I guess that would point at the crucible being removed, lest you accidentally smite your own shadowseer virtually guaranteeing the vaporization of your own Harlequins.

Rypher
26-12-2007, 19:25
but de have many other viable units...

The_Outsider
26-12-2007, 22:45
I guess that would point at the crucible being removed, lest you accidentally smite your own shadowseer virtually guaranteeing the vaporization of your own Harlequins.

Irony being is it being remvoed would be a good thing, its virtually useless as-is.

Smokedog
26-12-2007, 23:06
It will be interesting if they leave the shadowseer in or not.....

The_Outsider
26-12-2007, 23:22
They should do, as harliequins are effectively "off limits" in eldar society (of any flavour) them being psykers/whatever doesn't mean much.

That said I would like some "minor" DE psychic powers.

Something simple like re roll LD test or a power that works like a banshee mask.

Small subtle things that add that edge to whatever unit uses them.

IncubiLord
26-12-2007, 23:58
Therein lies a problem - a direct copy and paste means DE harlies will have to be walking everywhere.
- Unless those Harlies came out of a Webway Portal...

I hope they make them more expensive or available to less models - 30 Dark Lance gunline armies are just cheesy and boring.
Ah, yes, the infamous DE gunline.

I do hope you're being a hair exaggerate - it's quite a chore to get the full 30 Lances into a DE list (1620 points for just the minimum requirements, uses up all the HQ, Elites, Troops, and HS slots - no Lances are available in FA).

I'll agree that these lists are boring - I've played a shooty DE army or two (not the full 30 Lances - I prefer more mobility than the Gunline allows).

However, I question your cheese declaration. Almost any army could sit back outside that 3' range and chew a DE gunline to bits with their own Heavy Weapons. Just because some guy mauled you with a nasty surprise doesn't mean they're cheesy - you've just come across an unrepentant opponent.


Most likely taking an Archite will allow Wyches as troops.
Looking at the current trend of codices, I think it could swing either way. If taking an Archite allows Wyches as Troops, though, it will be interesting to see what the perk for taking an Archon is...

victorpofa
27-12-2007, 00:46
There is still one type of Harlequin unaccounted for with the Eldar Codex. The Solitaire. DE might get a Solitaire if no other Harlies.

The Dude
27-12-2007, 01:11
Maybe you've missed out, but the Harlies are on our side. :p

And maybe you missed my meaning.

I was saying that you would have to be pretty brave (or stupid) to bet AGAINST the Harliaquins being the new unit ;)

IncubiLord
27-12-2007, 05:01
And maybe you missed my meaning.

I was saying that you would have to be pretty brave (or stupid) to bet AGAINST the Harliaquins being the new unit ;)
Ah, yes, I think I did - or perhaps somebody else did and I jumped on the band-wagon...

Either way, I retract the previous comment (except for anybody who thought you meant the opposite way around).

Sidri
27-12-2007, 06:28
I just hope GW would consider fluff while building codexes... Just a small hope...
Yeah - every army have some kind of cheesy list, but some are more effective and others are not so... I just hope that new DE codex would be like new ork codex... quite powerful, but without obvious cheese...
And Harlequins - may be, may be... I just hope they also are gonna be balanced - their rending in current edition is murderous...

Wuestenfux
27-12-2007, 07:20
Rending will be weakened in the 5th ed and so Harlies will no longer be a no-brainer.

SyNide
27-12-2007, 08:15
Wooohoo...Goodness on a stick baby!

And yeah, i actually hope we'll get a nice thick fluff section like those of the new codices...:D

FuSs
27-12-2007, 08:19
Rending will be weakened in the 5th ed and so Harlies will no longer be a no-brainer.

Is that a fact or do you think so?
Easiest solution: '6' to wound count as rending instead of '6' to hit.
Still strong but not as strong as it is right now.

The_Outsider
27-12-2007, 10:50
- Unless those Harlies came out of a Webway Portal...



Thus meaning if you don't run a WWP harlies are useless as the rest of the army will outpace them? I find it unlikely.

Its not like giving them access to a raider is game breaking - it even makes them weaker (not benefitting from VoT + raider's less than fantastic durability).

Smokedog
27-12-2007, 11:01
withiut having the DE codex, harlequins are transportable, but only in non-dedicated transport int he in CWE codex. I can't see it being any differnet here....

A Solatiare would be an *interesting* prospect. the Solatiare would obviously get DS or infilltrate, not sure how that would fit in with the rest of the DE army.

Hellebore
27-12-2007, 11:05
withiut having the DE codex, harlequins are transportable, but only in non-dedicated transport int he in CWE codex. I can't see it being any differnet here....


There aren't any in the DE codex though are there?



A Solatiare would be an *interesting* prospect. the Solatiare would obviously get DS or infilltrate, not sure how that would fit in with the rest of the DE army.

Hopefully it will be as someone that has a pimped out Archon as his bitch. Solitaires should be able to chew up carnifexes and spit them out...

Hellebore

silashand
27-12-2007, 12:22
Most likely taking an Archite will allow Wyches as troops.

More likely is they will tie it to a special character like Lilith given GW's continuing special character fetish, i.e. just like Belial for the DA.. :-/

Cheers, Gary

Supremearchmarshal
27-12-2007, 12:38
However, I question your cheese declaration. Almost any army could sit back outside that 3' range and chew a DE gunline to bits with their own Heavy Weapons. Just because some guy mauled you with a nasty surprise doesn't mean they're cheesy - you've just come across an unrepentant opponent.

I don't remember the exact composition of the army, but it had 3 Ravagers, two smallish Wych squads, a cheap Archite and the rest were Raiders and 5-man Dark Lance squads. They won 2nd place in a local tournament several months ago, defeating every army except a SM gunline and a really cheesy Iron Warriors list (not the standard internet list). Their highlight was defeating a Tyranid army by turn 3 - the Tyranid player surrendered because he lost all Carnifexes and Synapse Creatures by then. They also smashed a typical 9 Obliterator / 2 Defilers / Basilisk IW army without much difficulty.

If I knew I was going against it, it wouldn't be too hard to beat, but a typical balanced or tournament list will suffer against them.

Looking at the current trend of codices, I think it could swing either way. If taking an Archite allows Wyches as Troops, though, it will be interesting to see what the perk for taking an Archon is...[/QUOTE]

Seeing the current trend of dropping retinue units, he'll probably allow Incubi to be taken as a HQ choice that doesn't take up a FOC slot.

I was also hoping for a Haemonculus cult army - seems no Master Haemonculus, but I wonder what ol' Urien has been up to...


More likely is they will tie it to a special character like Lilith given GW's continuing special character fetish, i.e. just like Belial for the DA.. :-/

Cheers, Gary

Interestingly enough, that would be returning to the original DE codex, where Lilith was needed for a Wych Cult.

Sithlord
27-12-2007, 12:58
I just hope GW would consider fluff while building codexes... Just a small hope...


Would not count on it as eldar and dark angel and especially chaos already prove it. Maybe some fluff like hit and runner and piratical style army would get to DE.


More likely is they will tie it to a special character like Lilith given GW's continuing special character fetish, i.e. just like Belial for the DA.. :-/

Cheers, Gary

maybe, but I figure the new troops unit are wyches that you can take without wych HQ! And it make sense that the Kabal lord are own and use them NOT byches from commorragh gladiator getting out from their home to nail slaves without proper permit local kabal lord who own them!
And if I count on troops move from another slot I figure it will be new grotesque with Urien as HQ.

well above the talks, I can rest assured that DE have BIG chances to come on 2008 (perhaps after the release of soulstorm to promote them... damn... GW are sure smartass on promoting their products :mad: )

Wuestenfux
27-12-2007, 19:00
Is that a fact or do you think so?
Easiest solution: '6' to wound count as rending instead of '6' to hit.
Still strong but not as strong as it is right now.
Well, 6 Harlies charging Marines: 24 attacks, 4 rending hits.
In the 5th ed, 6 Harlies charging Marines, 24 attacks, 16 hits, 2.66 rending wounds.

Hokiecow
27-12-2007, 19:52
well above the talks, I can rest assured that DE have BIG chances to come on 2008 (perhaps after the release of soulstorm to promote them... damn... GW are sure smartass on promoting their products :mad: )

Soulstorm will release in March, I don't see them wrapping up Dark Eldar by then. If they were to then we would hear rumors of the codex. 3 months out to of Orks release and everyone knew what the codex would be like.

I could see DE being releases after 'Planetstrike' (if the rumors are true, released Sept 08) that would put DE out this time next year (just like Orks). DE seem like they would have allot of little fighters causing chaos, something perfect for 'Planetstrike'.

Dranthar
28-12-2007, 04:32
re: the massed Dark Lance issue, I wouldn't be surprised if GW restricted the availability of DLs to warrior squads like they have with heavy weapons for Dark Angels/Chaos/Orks. You may well need a certain number of models before the Dark Lance becomes available.

They might also increase the points cost of the average Dark Lance but that's up in the air - one of the defining characteristics of the Dark Eldar is the silly amount of firepower/assault power they can potentially put out (which is balanced by their extreme frailty). Cheap and plentiful heavy weapons has been what's allowed the Dark Eldar to keep that level of firepower.

My guesses;
Harlequins will be slightly different - probably replacing the shadow seer with a solitare to better reflect the overall theme of the DE (as above)

Dracons/Dracites will disappear.

Arcites will remain while Lelith will get her own special rules to differentiate her. In either case, there will be some way of taking wyches as troops.

Urien Rakarth and/or Haemonculi will enable players to take a Haemonculus Coven. This may or may not involve grotesques as troops.

Grotesques are actually going to get the feel no pain USR rather than the proto-FnP rule they have now. What ever happens they'll be better than what they are now, which won't really be difficult.

The Decapitator will drop the proto-rending silliness he has now and get some kind of instakill rule. He will also be most awesome.

Kruelagh will dissappear just like Doomrider did for Chaos...and nobody will complain. :rolleyes:

Someone's going to invent a Scourge special character and s/he's going to have some kind of hard-core gattling mega-weapon of uberdeath...because that'd just be cool. :D

Scourges will get a price drop. Along with the new (presumed assault) Dark Lances that will probably be all they need to be worth fielding again.

Purchase of this Codex by me will be irrespective of what happens to what I consider to be the best army in 40k. ;)

Champsguy
28-12-2007, 06:56
If you're talking in competitive terms, that means they have some of the best rules in the game, doesn't it.
Also, DE have a few nicely-fluffy rules like Combat Drugs and Mandrakes' Hidden Deployment - from a fluffy-army perspective, these are some of the best rules in the game.

Eh. To me it means they're incredibly limited. I don't play tournaments, so I don't have to face random army builds blind. I play at a store with lots of guys who have placed in tournaments (so I know they don't suck), and we play very regularly (several times a week). We get to know each others' armies very well, which means you need versatility in list design or you're going to get creamed.


Raider Rush went out of fashion with 3ed. It's a gambler's tactic these days (there's this new-fangled thing called entanglement that really hurts paper-airplane transports).

WWP assisted Raider Rush and Dark Lance Snipers (or some combo thereof) are the only builds I see as being viable.


The Dark Eldar do require more effort to use effectively than the blunt-instrument MEQ-armies. Whether this makes it a steep learning curve, a veteran's army, or just something beyond the grasp of a juvenile on a drinking binge is really a matter of opinion. They are an army for people who want to have to think and put forth effort to win.

This is the problem I have with most Dark Eldar players on the 'net. They seem to think that other armies play themselves. I've played Dark Eldar. I've played Nidzilla. I've played Eldar. I've played Marines. No army wins without thought. Everyone has to think to win. The strongest Marine army out there will get decimated if the player doesn't think. No, they won't die quite as fast as a Dark Eldar army with the same player, but they won't win. With Dark Eldar, it's just obvious a little sooner. Instead of realizing that you won't win on turn 4, you realize it on turn 2. It doesn't change the fact that the unthinking general was never going to win in the first place.


Comments like this indicate that somebody missed several months of WD articles in 3ed, the fluff for the DE which dwells within the CWE books, and possibly more. That somebody isn't me.

The DE probably have as much fluff as some of the SM Chapters - if you're willing to look for it.

Since a WD codex also includes a reprinting/summary of all the most-important fluff, you'd likely have several pages of information in such a DE codex that would amaze all the new-comers with their detail and yet be nothing new to the true veteran of the DE.

Heck, some of you probably still haven't read the Torturer's Tale - and that's available free on the GW UK site. :(

Yeah, I've read Torturer's Tale and all the WD articles (with the exception of the Medusa 5 campaign--missed all that). Again, "Dark Eldar are evil Eldar who live in the webway and never gave up their old ways. They eat souls to stay young." The fluff is very basic and very sparse. They need lots of work.

IncubiLord
28-12-2007, 08:11
Eh. To me it means they're incredibly limited.
I won't argue that. I was just supporting that the DE have some of the best rules in the game.

WWP assisted Raider Rush and Dark Lance Snipers (or some combo thereof) are the only builds I see as being viable.
If you're playing on a classically-underpopulated-with-terrain 'tournament-style' board, that's about right.

If your boards have the proper 25% or more of terrain, some of the other concepts are viable - though sub-optimal.

However, a WWP list is a far cry from an actual Raider Rush.


This is the problem I have with most Dark Eldar players on the 'net. They seem to think that other armies play themselves.
No, you're getting that misconception from statements that MEQs are easier to play than non-MEQs.

I've played Dark Eldar. I've played Nidzilla. I've played Eldar. I've played Marines. No army wins without thought. Everyone has to think to win. The strongest Marine army out there will get decimated if the player doesn't think. No, they won't die quite as fast as a Dark Eldar army with the same player, but they won't win. With Dark Eldar, it's just obvious a little sooner. Instead of realizing that you won't win on turn 4, you realize it on turn 2. It doesn't change the fact that the unthinking general was never going to win in the first place.
And?

I've played Marines, Tyranids, and Orks since 2ed, and DE since the beginning of 3ed. You'll notice that only the army I started playing with has a wide range of Power Armor saves available to it.

The thing you're neglecting is that the MEQs (and some Eldar builds) are far more forgiving than lightly-armored, low-model-count armies. One mistake could cost me a quarter of my army, but a SM player only one of nine units.

Unthinking generals lose regardless of their army. Generals who occassionally make mistakes pay for it more if their army doesn't have a 3+ (or 2+) save or lots of models (and units).

DE are both lightly armored and heavily armed - which makes them expensive despite how easy they are to shoot apart. The combination of the two big bads (poor saves and low numbers) makes them more of a challenge than a Marine army.

Yeah, I've read Torturer's Tale and all the WD articles (with the exception of the Medusa 5 campaign--missed all that).
It's a shame you missed Medusa - we worked with the Harlequins and Craftworlders to protect the Webway.

Again, "Dark Eldar are evil Eldar who live in the webway and never gave up their old ways. They eat souls to stay young."
Really? :rolleyes:

Then what are the Mandrakes?
Why are the soul-eating Incubi such trustworthy bodyguards?
Are Haemonculi even Eldar?
Why do the Harlequins visit Commorragh if the DE are pure evil?
Why else do the DE eat souls?
Are Grotesques normal - are they willing?
Do the DE ever work with/for the other races?




Let's see if I can't oversimplify another faction as you did:
"Space Marines are bioengineered supersoldiers who fight as they please. Sometimes a group has a silly mutation like being Vampire-Marines or Werewold-Marines, and each group might have its own stereotypical culture."
How many codices did I just condense into two all-encompassing sentences?

"Imperial Guard are the sci-fi equivalent of the National Guard, Army Reserves, or equivalent from a country of your choice."
One sentence.

"Craftworld Eldar are a dying race of space elves who took up an abstinent way of life called the Path after their orgy-culture birthed the god of twisted pleasures. The Path just means that everybody does job thing to the exclusion of all others."
Wow, I'm on a roll...

"Orks are a bioengineered half-plant warrior-race that reproduces by sporing. Everything they need to know is coded into their genetics, but this is also an excuse for them to be the comedy-race of the game."
Yeah, that's about it.

"Tau are blue-skinned space-communists with anime-robot-suits."
Quick, they need more fluff!

"The Inquisition is a sci-fi equivalent of the Spanish Inquisition."
Yep.

"Necrons are Space-Undead led by Vampire-essences taken from stars and given bodies."
Really, you don't need more.

"Tyranids are space-bugs from another galaxy that evolve however their Hive Mind wishes at a super-fast rate."
Done.

You see, it's all as simple as you want it to be.

Sithlord
28-12-2007, 10:06
the main problem with DE codex is you cannot field 'themeful' army list to win ANY GAMES. Hell I try my chances to build a fast raiding army with less number models in exchange for powerful upgrades such as agonizer and drugs. It really match the flavor of 'pirates'... so I play on full terrain map with good decent area terrain (I say area terrain) and so I win few (it's hard you know as DE, you have to strike first and win it!)... and suddenly people people from usual group suggesting to play less terrain and WYSWYG terrain (and also apply on current tournament rules too!). And from now on, every time I move my raider always spotted and minced target for my opponent and chances of my winning drop drastically from rare winning to rare draws! And damn when I ask around on winning with dark eldar with my current list it's impossible now and most people told me either you use webway portal or play horde army DE style, in less word you MUST change army list to win. So now a themeful army has to change to very unatrractive army list just to win.
So you get it right, why we need new DE codex? just like chaos can still survive with their theme list (ex : khorne only army) or Dark angel theme list can survive too(ex Deathwing) or eldar theme listcan survive either (ex : Saim hann wild rider). I want DE to have same taste.... I want DE to play more role as pirates as their common list (so DE warrior should increase cost! but with better stats), I don't want to see DE fielding something that is very un-DE such as horde warriors or hiding cowardly inside webway portal.
I want to win as DE where they can survive in any environment and I want DE that can be played with any type of list.

Adra
28-12-2007, 11:07
Eldar jetbike like dark eldar jetbike? Well, DE donít have bonesingers and donít make things from wraithbone so why they would look the same is beyond me.

The_Outsider
28-12-2007, 11:38
Eldar jetbike like dark eldar jetbike? Well, DE don’t have bonesingers and don’t make things from wraithbone so why they would look the same is beyond me.

The current DE jetbike (which is a fantastic kit) isn't a far cry from the eldar jetbike now.

Not to mention DE and eldar were essentially the same at one point - so some designs aren't going to change.

Dominus_Serui
28-12-2007, 12:09
Building materials on the other hand....

jirgaS
28-12-2007, 15:29
It's a shame you missed Medusa - we worked with the Harlequins and Craftworlders to protect the Webway.

I tought that DE had this No'akei chick trying to overthrow Vect by taking millions of slaves from Medusa and then returning to Commorragh to claim the throne.

Sounds like a good story to me... :rolleyes:

Marinox
28-12-2007, 15:31
the vect master flash whacked her.

she was betrayed by her archons.

IncubiLord
28-12-2007, 17:49
suddenly people people from usual group suggesting to play less terrain and WYSWYG terrain (and also apply on current tournament rules too!). And from now on, every time I move my raider always spotted and minced target for my opponent and chances of my winning drop drastically from rare winning to rare draws!
...
So you get it right, why we need new DE codex?
No amount of new codices will fix your problem.
A gaming group behaving like retards screws up the game.

I thought that DE had this No'akei chick trying to overthrow Vect by taking millions of slaves from Medusa and then returning to Commorragh to claim the throne.

Sounds like a good story to me... :rolleyes:
That's what the rest of us thought.

So, we turned around and made our own goals, pointedly refusing to help the scorned lover.

We went into Medusa V because our home (the Webway) was being threatened and, as a bonus, there were all sorts of slaves to take.

No'akei actually tried threatening the DE who allied with the CWE and the Harlequins, and we ended up staging an attack on her before the end of the campaign (which softened her up nicely for the finale).

she was betrayed by her archons.
And we had fun doing it, too. ;)

Champsguy
28-12-2007, 18:22
Really? :rolleyes:

Then what are the Mandrakes?
Why are the soul-eating Incubi such trustworthy bodyguards?
Are Haemonculi even Eldar?
Why do the Harlequins visit Commorragh if the DE are pure evil?
Why else do the DE eat souls?
Are Grotesques normal - are they willing?
Do the DE ever work with/for the other races?

Those are really good questions. If we had some good fluff, I might be able to answer them for you.



Let's see if I can't oversimplify another faction as you did:
"Space Marines are bioengineered supersoldiers who fight as they please. Sometimes a group has a silly mutation like being Vampire-Marines or Werewold-Marines, and each group might have its own stereotypical culture."
How many codices did I just condense into two all-encompassing sentences?

"Imperial Guard are the sci-fi equivalent of the National Guard, Army Reserves, or equivalent from a country of your choice."
One sentence.

"Craftworld Eldar are a dying race of space elves who took up an abstinent way of life called the Path after their orgy-culture birthed the god of twisted pleasures. The Path just means that everybody does job thing to the exclusion of all others."
Wow, I'm on a roll...

"Orks are a bioengineered half-plant warrior-race that reproduces by sporing. Everything they need to know is coded into their genetics, but this is also an excuse for them to be the comedy-race of the game."
Yeah, that's about it.

"Tau are blue-skinned space-communists with anime-robot-suits."
Quick, they need more fluff!

"The Inquisition is a sci-fi equivalent of the Spanish Inquisition."
Yep.

"Necrons are Space-Undead led by Vampire-essences taken from stars and given bodies."
Really, you don't need more.

"Tyranids are space-bugs from another galaxy that evolve however their Hive Mind wishes at a super-fast rate."
Done.

You see, it's all as simple as you want it to be.

Yeah, it is easy to condense it all into one little snippet. The problem with Dark Eldar is that there's really not much BEYOND the snippet. There's gobs and gobs of stuff about the Inquisition, how they operate, when they use Exterminatus, how they were founded, etc. There's loads MORE fluff for every race than there is for Dark Eldar. What else do you include for the Dark Eldar? There's not much to give potential players a good grasp of the army. I don't really understand why you're disagreeing with me here. I just think the DE need about 5 times as much fluff as they currently have. Isn't that what players have demanded now for years?

Hokiecow
28-12-2007, 18:23
Dracons/Dracites will disappear.

I can't see that happening



The Decapitator will drop the proto-rending silliness he has now and get some kind of instakill rule. He will also be most awesome.

Kruelagh will dissappear just like Doomrider did for Chaos...and nobody will complain. :rolleyes:


Why would they keep a character they don't even have a model to drop one that is already out there? ... Never mind, same thing happened with Tau.

jirgaS
28-12-2007, 19:57
That's what the rest of us thought.

So, we turned around and made our own goals, pointedly refusing to help the scorned lover.

We went into Medusa V because our home (the Webway) was being threatened and, as a bonus, there were all sorts of slaves to take.

No'akei actually tried threatening the DE who allied with the CWE and the Harlequins, and we ended up staging an attack on her before the end of the campaign (which softened her up nicely for the finale).

And we had fun doing it, too. ;)

Now that's nice.
Sad that GWs original idea for DE in Medusa was; take some slaves and make me your queen...yarrr!!!

Hope that they really put in some effort when they are writing the new book.
I've always had a soft spot for dark eldar.
Hints from 2nd ed eldar codex got me really exited, but the eventual release of the 3rd ed (and DE) turned me away from 40k for years...

GKazman
28-12-2007, 20:37
Am I the only DE player that thinks that the first print of the codex (sans the vehicle upgrades and a bunch of the "new" wargear upgrades) was and is perfectly fine?

I've played my DE for nearly 9 years now and have enjoyed a win rate of
about of 95% of my games. While some of the posters have noted and I have experienced first hand that if I am outpositioned, or make a bad decision I'm trashed by turn 2, my raiding force is grounded, most of my warriors are pushing up daisy's and my lord is standing in the middle of the battlefield staring down the barrel of a huge assortment of guns.

On the other hand, if played properly, I'm typically able to outmanuever most armies (and no I don't WWP or whatever that is), and pick and choose my battles while using diversionary tactics to help keep the worst from my intended objective (god I love mandrakes). I've played in several east coast tournaments, and many many stores (I'm a military brat) so I don't think that it's a simple matter of my opponents being bad, but why all the despair over how DE "can't win" unless played a certain way? I am starting to believe that this "can't" mentality is simply a by-word for "hard." Also, yeah, the DE are fragile, and significantly unforgiving, but isn't that part of the fun of the game? You'll never know what you're able to accomplish unless pushed to do so.

I would be terribly bored of an army thats completely forgiving of my mistakes because I'd never be challenged to continually evaluate my games, tactics and decisions. Because even in the games that I win, a fair number of them get very close to swinging wildly out of my control and into my opponents favor. But that's what makes the game fun, that "OHHH" moment where things either go just right, or horribly wrong.

Longrunripper
28-12-2007, 21:13
Hard armies to play = less models bought = less profit.
the maths is simple.

IncubiLord
28-12-2007, 23:44
Those are really good questions. If we had some good fluff, I might be able to answer them for you.
And yet there are implicit answers to those questions if you'll use the background already available...

There's loads MORE fluff for every race than there is for Dark Eldar.
Of course there is. The DE got very little to work with.

What else do you include for the Dark Eldar?
Maybe the tid-bits that raise the above questions and allude to answers?
Maybe a little something on how the DE, CWE, and Harlequin use of the Webway compares?
Maybe the whole darn Torturer's Tale for the sprinkling of hints throughout it?

There's not much to give potential players a good grasp of the army. I don't really understand why you're disagreeing with me here.
Because you're being exaggerate in a manner which gives a false impression.

It's not that DE have "only one sentence" of fluff - it's that they have comparatively very little fluff.
It's not that there's no depth - it's that there's very little information on what has just as much potential depth.

If you want to say that DE got shorted on the fluff aspect of things, I'm on your side. If you want to exaggerate it and not treat the fluff of other factions equally, I'm going to call you on going too far.

I just think the DE need about 5 times as much fluff as they currently have. Isn't that what players have demanded now for years?
It is, and I fully agree that the DE deserve such an increase in background material.


Am I the only DE player that thinks that the first print of the codex (sans the vehicle upgrades and a bunch of the "new" wargear upgrades) was and is perfectly fine?
Probably.
Even Wyches weren't a viable unit back then.

It was a playable codex that could do well in tournaments and could still present a good game, but it was (and is) far from perfect.

why all the despair over how DE "can't win" unless played a certain way? I am starting to believe that this "can't" mentality is simply a by-word for "hard."
Because 90% of the people you talk to on the 'net are concerned with tournament play where terrain is painfully scarce and many army builds that would be difficult to use on a proper table fall apart because of the empty board favoring shooty MEQs.

Also, yeah, the DE are fragile, and significantly unforgiving, but isn't that part of the fun of the game?
...
I would be terribly bored of an army thats completely forgiving of my mistakes because I'd never be challenged to continually evaluate my games, tactics and decisions.
No army is completely forgiving, but I agree. I like an army that makes me put more effort into using it effectively.

Hard armies to play = less models bought = less profit.
the maths is simple.
Only identical, survivable, easy armies to play = a boring game = nobody wants to play = no profit.

It sure is simple.

GKazman
29-12-2007, 05:31
Probably.
Even Wyches weren't a viable unit back then.

It was a playable codex that could do well in tournaments and could still present a good game, but it was (and is) far from perfect.


Hah, awe cummon hydraknives were awesome, but yeah, the entire wych cult was abysmal, and don't get me started on the mess that is the talos.

IncubiLord
29-12-2007, 05:43
The original Wych weapons were three shades of awesome, but the non-Dodging Wyches were an over-priced joke.

Sithlord
29-12-2007, 05:44
No amount of new codices will fix your problem.
A gaming group behaving like retards screws up the game.

yep, in short conclusion it is. It's a s*%t when a gaming group has decide to screw you. Every time I play Dark eldar on them (and tourney), I just knew I'm going to lose anyway (90% chances of losing, unless my opponent roll UNLUCKY dice)... well with exception that if tourney using same s$#t rule (less terrain and no area terrain) I just ignore them and never participate.


I just think the DE need about 5 times as much fluff as they currently have. Isn't that what players have demanded now for years?

well, we do have lots of fluff... weren't mostly about enslavery :). Well actually not, I read some tales of DE on a space marine book (brother of snakes or something) where DE lord named Kharandros instead of enslaving a planet he decide to call power of chaos god slanessh and turn the planet to daemon world which resulting the soul siphon curse (that most DE have) are lifted as a 'gift' from slanessh to kharandros resulting that he is the first DE that are actually 'protected' by slanessh.
In short, that not all DE were a pirate enslaver to satiate their diminish souls but they are others who will do anything to free themselves from the curse.


No army is completely forgiving, but I agree. I like an army that makes me put more effort into using it effectively.

that is surely not going to happen to DE who end up to WYSWYG terrain based battlefield.

Atrum Angelus
29-12-2007, 05:58
I don't know about that WD codex thing, as much as I'd like to see that.

However, I have heard that the Jetbike prototype was for a new Eldar/Dark Eldar kit, allowing a single model to be used for both armies with just a few tweaks and bitz (much like the Space Marine and Chaos Space Marine vehicles).

Dranthar
29-12-2007, 06:29
I can't see that happening
Why not? The pattern I see with codex's these days is to drop the multi-tiered characters and go with one tier for each HQ. The recent Chaos codex dropped the Chaos lieutenant, IIRC Dark Angels/Blood Angels only have one tier for each character (unless you want a special character) and the Orks are the same (although I don't believe they ever did anyway). Granted it's not exactly solid proof of a definite pattern, but like I said, these are my guesses. :D


Why would they keep a character they don't even have a model to drop one that is already out there? ... Never mind, same thing happened with Tau.

1. As you say...Tau...precedent. ;)
2. The whole model range bar Reavers are reportedly getting replaced, so whether a special character has a model for him/her is moot really
3. The Decapitator, both in rules and concept, is several orders of magnitude cooler than Kruellagh.
4. Who do you know who's used Kruellagh in a game? I've seen plenty of decapitator conversions (mine included) and reports of people trying him out, but Kruellagh is practically ignored amongst Dark Eldar players, probably due to her uninspiring background/rules and the fact that a straight archon is much better.


and don't get me started on the mess that is the talos.
Well from a competitive standpoint the Talos isn't a bad unit...it's just that its rules are a horrific fusion of 2nd ed. and early 3rd ed. :rolleyes:

Case in point: The Talos sting and its "kill the closest model" rule is practically ripped out of the standard shooting rules for 2nd ed. It can take an opponent off guard, but it's stupid, unecessary and fiddly.

In the design notes, it was said that the armour penetration rules for the Talos Claws were meant to make the Talos effective at killing tanks, despite it's strength of 7. Compare it to the monsterous creature rules introduced for some models less than a year later (IIRC) and you see how pathetic those claws are! Oh well, at least they ignore armour...they did get that bit right. :rolleyes:

Panic
29-12-2007, 08:21
Just read through the DE codex I have and it's not that bad IMO. Few fixes needed and much better fluff. I personally really like Dark Eldar in general, it's just the models aren't all that tempting. The best model for Dark Eldar has to be Drahzar the Master of Blades IMO. He's wasted with the current Dark Eldar model range...
I got so sick of the Archon model that I bought a bunch of Dark Elf models and converted 'em.
My Archon is now an Dark Elf Executioner converted here and there.

Anyways, it would be very disappointing to see DE not touched for a while...
If DE do get a revision and some new models, I'd ditch whatever I'm doing and go straight to Dark Eldar.
I wish GW could surprise me again. The only other time I got surprised was when SoB/WH were all metal troops...

KYR GKIKAS
29-12-2007, 09:37
Well i care not if the codex DE wil be a WD one or a real massive codex (Just like Orcs) But i really want to see it before codex Daemons.I mean come on why chaos thingies again?Why the DE have to got those crappy models and Old rules?

Profiron
29-12-2007, 09:53
Could we come to a consensus over which DE models are good and which need replacing?

Fine as they are:

Warriors
Raiders & ravagers
Reaver bikes
Incubi
Haemonculi
Warp beasts

Should be replaced/removed/rewritten:

Wyches
Grotesques
Mandrakes
Hellions
Talos

Yeah I'd like 100% new models but there's some that'll do and some that NEED TO BE REPLACED because they look embarassing (talos and hellions I'm looking at you, this isn't back to the future 2, you're not neutrinos get off your hoverboards)

Dranthar
29-12-2007, 11:29
Could we come to a consensus over which DE models are good and which need replacing?

In all honesty the entire range is showing its age, even the good ones like Drahzar and the incubi.

Most of the models in the DE range are still OK though...they're in need of an update but they aren't eye-gougingly terrible at any rate.

IMO the models in desperate need of replacement?
1. Grotesques - I couldn't think of a more appropriate name... :rolleyes:
2. Warp Beasts - There's something very wrong about these minis...the poses are terrible and the skin-thing? It's is not easy to make that look decent.
3. Mandrakes - the best of the three, a creative paint job can make them look passable but they still need to go.

Wyches and hellions are also sub-par but they're not as terrible as the above three.

Arachon
29-12-2007, 13:39
These are the models i'd like to see replaced

Lord
Haemonculi
Wyches
Beastmaster
Warpbeasts
Mandrakes
Helions
Grotesques

intellectawe
29-12-2007, 14:07
For me, Wyches are some of the best models in the GW line. There is something about how their armor meets their skin, and how painting them feels just right. I can't put my finger on it. Its like, when I am painting a Wych, I am painting a person. I don't feel that way for any other line, except for Orks probably. But every ork is the same.... at least wyches can be given individual paint jobs with so many skin tone options....

Wuestenfux
29-12-2007, 16:48
Lord, Wyches, Beastmaster & Warpbeast aref fine.
Mandrakes need some new rules (rumoured Lictors).
Hellions are hard to use effectively.

Supremearchmarshal
29-12-2007, 18:04
Only identical, survivable, easy armies to play = a boring game = nobody wants to play = no profit.

It sure is simple.

Not really - most people play MEQs, and loyalist SM alone make by far the most of GW's profit. In addition, the SM are the only army to keep variant armies (LatD, Feral Orks and Kroot Mercs are gone, but not BA, DA and SW), and the new CSM are more similar to the loyalists than they ever were - yet still remain popular.


Fine as they are:

Warriors
Raiders & ravagers
Reaver bikes
Incubi
Haemonculi
Warp beasts

I agree, except for the Raiders/Ravagers - they should be easier to transport and Warp Beasts, which just look... dull.

Bregalad
29-12-2007, 18:12
1. As you say...Tau...precedent. ;)
What are you talking about?
Aun'va, Shadowsun and Farsight all have models, only Aun'shi (also with a model) was dropped.

fleshcross
29-12-2007, 19:03
Pretty much everything besides the Incubi, Jetbikes and Raiders needs to be scrapped. And even then the Incubi (as cool as they are) could use an update. Everything else is dead terrible.

Hokiecow
29-12-2007, 19:37
What are you talking about?
Aun'va, Shadowsun and Farsight all have models, only Aun'shi (also with a model) was dropped.

That's his point. They could drop a character (at least in Tau's case a decent one) and add a new one like they did with Tau.

Dranthar
29-12-2007, 20:19
That's his point. They could drop a character (at least in Tau's case a decent one) and add a new one like they did with Tau.

Yep.

And for the record, the ill-fated doomrider also had a model, but it didn't stop him getting dumped for Lucius. :D

Profiron
29-12-2007, 20:56
What's wrong with the warriors? They're the coolest looking ones. I'd keep them the way they are but maybe design some more helmet/weapon/armour embellishments because that's the most fun part of modelling DE.

Also the raiders and ravagers are as good as they can be logic wise- they're supposed to be open topped and fly so they're going to have to follow a specific design principle. Maybe change some of the embellishment for asthetic purposes but I'm happy with the basic design.

Warp beasts could use a change but I wouldn't put them at the top of the priority list.

The_Outsider
29-12-2007, 21:36
What's wrong with the warriors? They're the coolest looking ones. I'd keep them the way they are but maybe design some more helmet/weapon/armour embellishments because that's the most fun part of modelling DE.

Their helmets are terrible, otherwise their great models (especially considering their age).


Also the raiders and ravagers are as good as they can be logic wise- they're supposed to be open topped and fly so they're going to have to follow a specific design principle. Maybe change some of the embellishment for asthetic purposes but I'm happy with the basic design.

I too love the current raider/ravager design, i wouldn't change it for the world.


Warp beasts could use a change but I wouldn't put them at the top of the priority list.

2 words: flesh hounds.

Kulgur
30-12-2007, 02:35
Random thought time:

Anyone else notice that the raider looks alot like Jabba's skiff from Return of the Jedi, right down to the one blaster at the front?

Santiaghoul
30-12-2007, 03:49
Random thought time:

Anyone else notice that the raider looks alot like Jabba's skiff from Return of the Jedi, right down to the one blaster at the front?

Oh yah, the first time they were pictured in WD just before the release of 3rd ed. And Vect's transport has two scanntily clad slave girls lying on the deck.

My only complaints about raiders and ravagers are 1) they are fragile to haul around. 2) They are HUGE on the table. For an open top light armor skimmer, I would like to be able to hide behind some terrain. Like the Ork truks (not the new one). I used to play with some pretty hard core gits in Tulsa and I heard that, "Oh, I can see that corner of the upper wing. You get hull down, of course." rather a lot.

Other than that, I love the look of those two vehicles.

shabbadoo
30-12-2007, 09:32
It has been rumored for quite some time that the Warriors are being redone as the basis for the whole new look of the army. It is thought that DE will be revamped to the level that the Orks will be over the next 9 months or so. I look forward to seeing Warriors that don't look like 2nd rate villains from a comic book. The sheer body suits, funky comic book hero/villain boots, and thrilling head gear have got to go. I'd say that the basic raider and the jetbikes are the two things least needing an initial revamp, but everything else is just horrible.

Sithlord
30-12-2007, 10:27
raider model design are fine as they are now however on gaming they should given night fighting special rules to make them survive.

NRGLancer
30-12-2007, 20:33
I think the Dark Eldar need something more "slick" for armor...anyone played Mass Effect on the XBox 360? Look at the light and medium armor available for the human characters...it seems to be made of a cloth-like material with armor pads. I think it would be cool for the DE, as they only have 5+ saves but are noted for their speed. Anyways just a thought, back a few years back when I was playing DE I used to hate their look despite liking their back story.

Achilles
30-12-2007, 21:41
I wouldnt mind the DE having 6+ saves (and no save on wyches) of they hit even harder...

Sithlord
31-12-2007, 00:08
I think the Dark Eldar need something more "slick" for armor...anyone played Mass Effect on the XBox 360? Look at the light and medium armor available for the human characters...it seems to be made of a cloth-like material with armor pads. I think it would be cool for the DE, as they only have 5+ saves but are noted for their speed. Anyways just a thought, back a few years back when I was playing DE I used to hate their look despite liking their back story.

they already have 'speed'. What we really need when our 'speed' is failing on us (opponent get first turn, bad roll D6 on fleet, etc) at least we need protection from LONG range shooting. Why the hell DE has 'shadow' technology anyway? They can make themselves 'cloaked' with shadow (night fighting rules, at least opponent cannot shoot more than 36"!)

Tarascon
31-12-2007, 06:35
Some misdirection type abilities would aid the DE a lot, or portable cover type stuff.

I mean, everyone's archon has a 2+invulnerable, can't we get a worse version of that for our raiders? Or have some slave carry around a bigger version of it? (We could use some antigrav technology, but sadism is the key here.)

My favorite image of the DE is of the DE player basically sitting on his side of the table, throwing paper airplanes at the enemy and hoping a few make it through. I hope that doesn't change too much. (which kind of contradicts what I said earlier, but I want to have my cake and eat it too!)

NRGLancer
31-12-2007, 07:45
they already have 'speed'. What we really need when our 'speed' is failing on us (opponent get first turn, bad roll D6 on fleet, etc) at least we need protection from LONG range shooting. Why the hell DE has 'shadow' technology anyway? They can make themselves 'cloaked' with shadow (night fighting rules, at least opponent cannot shoot more than 36"!)

I just wanted the armor to represent their "supposed" speed then :D Their body conforming armor with minimal padding and blades would be a cool look I think...Give the vehicles a slightly more streamlined look...they should be a little bit more functional looking versus ornate, they are after all professional slavers, they should look like they have everything designed to do that best. Anyways, just a thought.

anglacon
31-12-2007, 11:45
Ithey are after all professional slavers, they should look like they have everything designed to do that best.
Like slave snares standard on raiders?

NRGLancer
31-12-2007, 19:58
Like slave snares standard on raiders?

I was just thinking that the vehicles were a little ornate looking, more flash over function...and yes they have the tools, i was getting at the ship hull itself...again, just my personal opinion :p

jb85
31-12-2007, 20:02
raider model design are fine as they are now however on gaming they should given night fighting special rules to make them survive.

The big problem with the raider is that they are very difficult to transport, especially given the number of them (and Ravengers) there are. They are also quite fragile, so I wouldn't complain (or be surprised) if there was a revamp.

The_Outsider
31-12-2007, 23:18
Thing is, the raider kit is supremely versatile.

Its easy as anything to cut off the rear "fin" (all the way down to the driver's seat of you so desire) and mount it somewhere else, or not at all.

IncubiLord
01-01-2008, 07:14
Its easy as anything to cut off the rear "fin" (all the way down to the driver's seat of you so desire) and mount it somewhere else, or not at all.
... And Raiders without all the extra spikies are actually pretty slick.

Cut off the top fin and don't mount the scythes or singular landing-gear spiky-bit, and Raiders are sleek, "screw-appearances, it works great" vehicles. My biggest gripe with Raiders is that the flying stand requires some effort to make support the model - and that's a problem with most things that get a flying stand from GW.

Brother-Captain De Angele
01-01-2008, 10:28
All Any Army Needs Its LOTS of Bits make everythinmg to plastic give like a billion parts and the fun begins!

kenny3760
02-01-2008, 23:51
... And Raiders without all the extra spikies are actually pretty slick.

Cut off the top fin and don't mount the scythes or singular landing-gear spiky-bit, and Raiders are sleek, "screw-appearances, it works great" vehicles. My biggest gripe with Raiders is that the flying stand requires some effort to make support the model - and that's a problem with most things that get a flying stand from GW.

The easiest way to get the support you need is to open the hole for the stand out to about 4mm and sit the raider over the stand spike, works a treat.

abadon58
03-01-2008, 11:14
I think your right I have also played DE since they first came out in the box starter set with SM. My son had the marines and I took the DE to play against him. I went on to build a BALLANCED army and have won 90% of my games and still use the same list. I love the army as they are and still use them mostly despite having 6 other armies. It would be a boring game to sit there like IG and just shoot everything before it gets to you and win all the time. Its good to use the grey matter and out think your enemy. Hey even if you don`t win its the fun of the game that matters and how you can do better next time.

the1stpip
03-01-2008, 14:28
I agree with Raiders can be slick. Here is a pic of my latest Ravager.

http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z158/the1stpip/Dark%20Eldar/Ravager01.jpg

Kellindel
03-01-2008, 18:21
Or have some slave carry around a bigger version of it? (We could use some antigrav technology, but sadism is the key here.)


What??? You can't mix a slave with anti-Grav tech?!?!?!?

I think a bigger version moving around on some anti-Grav pods is cool, as long as you include the slave ..... jacked into the device and powering it with the fuel the DE like to use .... SOUL POWER!!!!

Wait ... the DE already have something like this along the same idea .... the Talos. Guess Slave Soul powered devices isn't that new of an idea.

And as for the Raider/Ravage redesign ... I just hope the raider can hold the 10 warriors on it. Almost having it be like the Star Wars stiff is a better idea. Then you end up with a larger flat surface to place the warriors while not expanding the width of the transport.

The problem with the DE range is that it was a new concept that was limited in the design process because of the lack of molding technology at the time.

As you can see from the new releases, I'm actually very excited to see the new warriors and stuff .... even though I already have 200 painted warriors, 80 painted Wyches, 8 painted Raiders, 2 painted Ravagers, and god knows what else.

I think the DE codex as it stands at the moment is still really good. It shows that GW doesn't need to make an UBER list to make an effective one. Yeah there are instances where they can really suck. Like my 10 man Wych squad getting in to assault a 5 man marine scout squad, and with 30+ attacks, failed to kill a single scout. But that balanced out the following game when one warrior with a Shredder took out a vast majority of a packed tactical squad with one shot.

Dice tell it all.

As for fluff, how can we say the fluff that is out there should be followed or built up on??? The DE are a bunch a cheating, evil, liars .... who would really know what they are like and what they are up to?? You ask one Archon who's the most powerful and how things are run in the webway and he'll give you an answer, as another one and he's going to give you a different answer. Hell a fact that DE were fighting along side Chaos really had me scratching my head and saying WTF?? But then again what do I know, Chaos might have been a tool to the DE at the time and it was good for their own personal goals....

Sithlord
03-01-2008, 21:35
well actually souls already the primary fuel for DE technology (gruesome :p), it's actually fueling the most basic and known technolgy, Shadow technology (dark lance, screaming jets, shadowfield, etc).
And DE are suppose close enough to dark elves of fantasy. Selfish evil hedonistic liars.

chaos0xomega
03-01-2008, 22:28
They don't have to push the minis, they sell just fine on their own. I recently learned that the Dark Eldar minis sell just as well now that they are Direct Only (in the US) as they did when they were on shelves, so there has been no need to advertise them or bring them back into the stores when they have a fairly consistent rate of sale as they are.


You'll notice that you learned that they sell ONLY as well as they used to not better or worse. This is probably because A- very few people ever bought them in the first place(in the year or so before they were pulled from shelves) and/or B- the same people that bought them in stores are the ones now buying them Direct.

Also, I would like to bring something up from the fluff perspective: There aren't many DE. This isn't like the Eldar... this is literally a case of there being tons more slaves than there are DE. Why then, are the DE so fragile? Wouldn't DE combat doctrine rely on the fast raid with ultra elite hard to kill troops instead of a fast raid with a large amount of meat-puppets that die in droves? Heavy armour doesn't have to = slow. Besides that, the Eldar pretty much have the "fragile and fast" thing down, dont they? Aren't they currently the fastest race in the game bar none?

Alternatively, DO drop the save down to a 6, and give the army a universal night fight stealth field thing from their shadow-tech use(If its good enough for 3+/2+ save Grey Knights/Termies, then the DE can certainly make use of it without much change to their points cost). Oh, and universal Hit and Run(as that is fluff-tastic).

And now for a bit of discussion on the minis... WTF! is my opening statement.

It seems GW can't do "Evil" without spikes... is this really necessary? The fluff says that the DE are the way the Eldar were before the fall(although slightly more depraved), therefore it is safe to assume that nothing has really changed very much technology wise or anything like that. Agreed? Good

Now, the established fluff says the the pre-Fall Eldar were basically Eldar who like the pleasures of the flesh a bit... much, and they valued any kind of pleasure over anything else. Therefore, I think its safe to assume that they enjoyed there art very much, and I think we can agree that they had rather good taste(lets look at many of the slaving civilizations from our own ancient past. I think we can agree that many of our finest artistic works have hailed from these places(ancient Rome/Greece for example)), now then, Why are the DE so butt-ugly and plain? The DE should, from the fluff perspective have some of the most ornate and beautiful models in the game(I'd like to think there is more to the DE than just "Kill, Enslave, Burn"), as they should STILL derive very much pleasure from works of beauty(hence the reason why Vect has to human slave girls on his skiff thing) regardless of the fall and all this slaanesh nonsense.

Now, the primary issue(I think) is that the helmets are too *********** tall(bigger than their bodies!?), and have that stupid "ridge" motif thing going on(its 'effin everywhere? WHY!? WHY!????). IMO, these models are what the DE helmets should look like:

http://us.games-workshop.com/games/40k/darkeldar/painting/WD309_ChrisBell/popup.htm?images/DE20.gif except the one on the left needs to be shorter, and the one on the right a big longer.

Also, the one on the left here: http://us.games-workshop.com/games/40k/darkeldar/painting/WD309_ChrisBell/popup.htm?images/DE16.gif
if trimmed down a bit, would look awesome(without the ridge thing).

The one on the left here: http://store.us.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.us?do=Individual&code=99060112014&orignav=300919&ParentID=213987&GameNav=10&ItemNav=302049
is also pretty neat(Body number 2 if youre looking at the parts)

And Scourges 2 and 3(if the helmets weren't so *********** tall):
http://store.us.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.us?do=Individual&code=99110112011&orignav=300919&ParentID=253160&GameNav=10&ItemNav=302055
(NO RIDGES!!)

Now that I've shown examples of what I would consider "proper" helmets, I should mention that they should be ornate. Inscriptions, images, sculputres, details, etc. Plainness is a quality of the CWE, not the DE(and its funny because the CWE seem to be much more artsy. IMO, DE armor should lose the spikes, take some of the CWE minis as a base(for example the Dire Avengers or Fire Dragons) take off all the spirit stones, add miniature "sculptures" or whatever to the armor, kinda like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Statue-Augustus.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:TrajanXanten.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Germanicus.png

I.E. their armour should be adorned with Frieze's/Reliefs and based heavily off of ancient Greece and Rome(mainly Rome... Western Rome...) and encrusted with jewels(NOT spirit stones) and the like, and probably be very glitzy/gaudy(gold perhaps)?

Sithlord
03-01-2008, 23:16
we'll just have to see how this 'tall' helmet represented in DOW games in march :). That we should see DE need shorter helmet or not.

chaos0xomega
03-01-2008, 23:46
See, I was thinking that too, but if Soulstorm is an indicator of anything... its that GW isn't going to touch the models at all:

http://www.gamespot.com/video/943419/6181751/warhammer-40-000-dawn-of-war-soulstorm-official-movie-2
http://www.gamespot.com/pc/strategy/warhammer40000dawnofwarsoulstorm/news.html?sid=6181715&mode=previews (go to images)

Psyan
04-01-2008, 06:47
With the driver and those fins sitting so high, the Raider is difficult to hide behind terrain, really difficult to store safely and last of all, just plain ugly. When I put Raiders together, I completely remove the driver from the rear of the vehicle and relocate him and his chair to the front. I mount the rear fins lower and (usually) narrower and trim the front armor on the top. The DL or Dissie gets magnetically mounted on the underside of the vehicle and can thus easily be switched out. The result looks significantly more modern and stores much more easily.

Oh, I also widen the hole on the bottom of the fuselage for the post of the clear stand, as someone mentioned earlier. The Raider then sits much more stably and a little bit lower.

Orbital
04-01-2008, 07:02
See, I was thinking that too, but if Soulstorm is an indicator of anything... its that GW isn't going to touch the models at all:

http://www.gamespot.com/video/943419/6181751/warhammer-40-000-dawn-of-war-soulstorm-official-movie-2
http://www.gamespot.com/pc/strategy/warhammer40000dawnofwarsoulstorm/news.html?sid=6181715&mode=previews (go to images)
Don't be too nervous about that. Dawn of War had several Eldar units in it that don't look the same anymore. Same with Orks. Probably same with Chaos now. Not a concern, honest.

Sithlord
04-01-2008, 07:11
With the driver and those fins sitting so high, the Raider is difficult to hide behind terrain, really difficult to store safely and last of all, just plain ugly. When I put Raiders together, I completely remove the driver from the rear of the vehicle and relocate him and his chair to the front. I mount the rear fins lower and (usually) narrower and trim the front armor on the top. The DL or Dissie gets magnetically mounted on the underside of the vehicle and can thus easily be switched out. The result looks significantly more modern and stores much more easily.

Oh, I also widen the hole on the bottom of the fuselage for the post of the clear stand, as someone mentioned earlier. The Raider then sits much more stably and a little bit lower.

that my friend is one of major problem for every dark eldar player who try to field vehicles:o As even I'm not convert it, it appear large for light vehicles and easily spotted in every games I had :mad:.
So we do have to depend on new special rules (IF there is new special rule in new codex) by putting night fighting rules on DE.

Ranmbling Rocket
06-01-2008, 09:16
Personally, I like the high helmets of the warriors. It is not that the helmets are high, it is that they look dated. Although the photo's are a bit blurry, I think my this sample converted Dark Eldar looks pretty good, with the high helmet.
http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg289/Rambling_Rocket/DSC00261.jpg
I have always liked the guardian model, might as well put them to use with the Dark Eldar since they are now a low choice for Craftworld Eldar.

Psyan
06-01-2008, 09:28
I really like that warrior conversion, Rocket! The spikes on the back keep the tall helmet from overwhelming the rest of the figure. What are they? Where did you get them?

The_Outsider
06-01-2008, 09:34
The key to that model isn't the back spikes - its the stolen guardian shoulder pad.

It bulks the model out thus making the spikes look smaller in relation to the rest of the model.

AdmiralDick
06-01-2008, 09:43
that's a brilliant conversion Ranmbling Rocket, and almost exactly the sort of thing i had envisioned i would want to convert up if i was making a DE army. the only problem is that that's easily the best helmet from the Warriors sprue. the others are awful and i don't think they'd make the transition.

i'm also quite looking forward to next month release of the Harad source book for LotR, because it includes Corsairs of Umbar, and when they made a Corsair ship in WD it looked to me to be the perfect base for a Raider model (stick some engines on and give it a flying base and your done.

Ranmbling Rocket
06-01-2008, 09:55
I feel The_Outsider is correct, it is the guardian 'packpack-suit' that is the key.

For those that are interested:
-The head is the bottom half of a guardian head with the top part of warrior head (so that it no longer looks dated)
-The body, arms and legs are a standard guardian. A small amount of green stuff used to make the shoulder pads pointed and upward curving. A spike was added to one knee (as what dark eldar doesn't like putting in the knee). The 'boot straps' have been shaped into small spikes also.
-The back spikes are tyranid guant arms. I drilled holes in them to make them look industrial instead of organic. I also drilled holes into the blade of the warrior gun to match.

My Warriors are still spikey, but they do look distinct from chaos.


AdmiralDick-
"the only problem is that that's easily the best helmet from the Warriors sprue. the others are awful and i don't think they'd make the transition."
Not true, my other different helmets look just as good!


Additional edit for some other replies:

http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg289/Rambling_Rocket/DSC00267.jpghttp://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg289/Rambling_Rocket/DSC00268.jpg
The other heads look good with the guardian face plate. Ridges look just as good to me. I can see from this photo that I need to trim the holes in the helmet a bit more, so I guess thats one good thing about putting its picture here.

Guys, I only put a picture here to prove a point:- That Dark Eldar can look good with spikes and high helmets. If you like it, feel free to copy. I can not say the back spikes were my idea, since I saw them used in AusWD306 for Dark Eldar tyranid hunters (except the spikes were used 'as is' for trophies and were put on the warrior bodies instead of guardian bodies - I just went that bit further).

AdmiralDick
06-01-2008, 10:17
feel free to show us then.

Messiah
06-01-2008, 14:59
Its not only that the helmets are out of proportion, its that they would be extremely unefficient to wear. A friend of mine made one out of plastic just to try, and even though it was light, it was just in the way all the time.

demondriven
06-01-2008, 22:06
That is a fricking marvelous conversion. Hopefully someone from GW is taking notes.

chaos0xomega
06-01-2008, 23:44
Personally, I like the high helmets of the warriors. It is not that the helmets are high, it is that they look dated. Although the photo's are a bit blurry, I think my this sample converted Dark Eldar looks pretty good, with the high helmet.
http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg289/Rambling_Rocket/DSC00261.jpg
I have always liked the guardian model, might as well put them to use with the Dark Eldar since they are now a low choice for Craftworld Eldar.

Now that is a mini that I can respect. Mind if I steel the conversion off you? I was planning something similar, but shorter. but that just looks ace! Also, that helmet doesn't have ridges. Major props for not looking like a spiky "Dark Magician" from Yugioh.

While I still aint too big a fan of spikes, that is a model I can really really respect!

Hokiecow
15-01-2008, 01:31
GameSpot has a review of a hands on demo of Soul Storm, posted here (http://www.gamespot.com/pc/strategy/warhammer40000dawnofwarsoulstorm/news.html?sid=6184662&tag=topslot;title;2)

AllisterCaine
17-01-2008, 00:32
its too be expected from GW, but at least, if they do choose to redo an army-wide miniature range, it will be good- like the WE for example. i hear that the guard will get its codex next along with plastic valkyries. as far as rules go, they need it more than the DE.

Zanzibarthefirst
17-01-2008, 00:51
whats more impnrtant needing models or needing rules. I think DE ought to take priority over IG at the moment. Fair enough De rules are ok but whats the point of having OK rules if few people collect them because they lack inspiration.
Oh and the Soulstorm demo is sweet. A murder of ravens is brillant, it'll eat through anything.

Sithlord
17-01-2008, 02:04
I think with current rules of 5th edition, DE will re-do in next year... some rumour rules of 5th edition that HELPS alot to current DE.
- Dedicated transport (especially open-topped) when destroyed only suffer pinning test and very light damage due to open topped (suffer S2 or S3)
- eldar jetbike rules are mention to both eldar and DARK ELDAR
- unit will now completely block LOS (although this very untrustworthy rumour rules but with grotesque? why not?).
- skimmer who are close topped have reduce speed (but not open topped one!)

AdmiralDick
17-01-2008, 16:24
whats more impnrtant needing models or needing rules.

without a shadow of a doubt, models are by far the more important part of that equation. i won't buy an army that has good rules but no models (or only rubbish ones that i don't want). i'll think up lists for it, but i'll probably never put them into practice. and even if i buy the codex thats a one off purchase. GW are not going to keep me coming back and spending more money. i only do that for models.

however i will by an army for a game i don't even play, regardless of how good their rules are, if the models are good enough. and sales of good models spills over into other collectors purchases. sure you might not play Dark Eldar but you want some of their bits for conversions in my own army, you're unlikely to buy their codex to use with the wrong models.

xenite
17-01-2008, 17:45
has anyone seen any good eldar as dark eldar conversions?

AdmiralDick
17-01-2008, 18:15
yeah, about 6 posts above yours.

Zanzibarthefirst
17-01-2008, 21:59
What do people actual want for DE? I would like to see a plastic ravenger and obviously heavy weapons included in the box. I'd imagine the box would be similar in terms of quantity as the new ork one.

Dranthar
17-01-2008, 22:31
What do people actual want for DE?

Above all else, I'd like to see new grotesques, wyches, raiders and ravagers, purely because I haven't quite maxxed out on those models in my collection yet. ;)

Zanzibarthefirst
17-01-2008, 22:35
wyches warrant being made in plastic since they are a popular choice for DE.

IN terms of the codex, i'd like to see no wasted choices and a few different variant lists. Most lists are a webway portal and raiders. What this means is giving a role for units that dont normally get used such as hellions

Hokiecow
17-01-2008, 23:37
Definitely more things in plastic.

More options, whether that be more weapons for units or new units.

I like to be able to see more options for the a DE. That is, DE players don't look like carbon copies or each other.

Speed Speed and more speed. I don't care if their weak as long as they are fast and can strike hard either in CC or close range fire.

Faster Talos or variant of the sort. Maybe make it weaker yet decent in CC and you could take 3 in a unit.

Some sort of demented soul tearing heavy weapon.

Asentaja
18-01-2008, 18:31
As for me, I wanna see more background, some new models and the "useless" units brought in to line with others. More than these, I would like to see some special rules that would match the "surprice"-effect in Dark Eldar attacks.

WiganUltra
19-01-2008, 02:01
By far the most important thing is the model range.

I want to see them all redone, or at least nearly all.

Still like some of the Wyches, but they really need plastic.
And while Incubi are a really good design, I think the actual scuplts need improvement. Just look at the punishers - you could bludgeon someone with one of those, but there's no way you'd ever cut anything!
The warriors aren't outright terrible, but certainly are now far surpassed by all the other races core models.
Not sure how they could change Raiders/Ravagers, but I'd like to see what ideas they could come up with. Although I'd be happy to simply convert them.
And then a lot of the rest are just plain awful.

Reavers, Talos, and maybe Scourges I could live with, though anything that doesn't get redone will be way down the list behind anything that does in terms of what I'm likely to buy.

Sithlord
19-01-2008, 02:31
background people. That's what DE need right now, not model and not rules (well maybe rules need to be tidied up)

Zanzibarthefirst
19-01-2008, 06:43
but improving the background isnt going to attract new gamers. Most people wont even look at the codex if there arent any good models.

Crystalmonkey
19-01-2008, 10:19
They need to improve the codex, the models, and the Fluff. I think that covers everything.


Codex Changes Needed:

Elites:
Mandrakes, as they are currently, are garbage. They cost way too much and do far too little. Even if they were dirt cheap, they take up a valuable slot that could be used for the much better choice of Wyches. (Though even Wyches have problems depending on which Drug effect takes place, and who they are fighting.)

Troops:
So, you've got one order of Warriors. Would you like Raiders with that?

Fast Attack;
Reaver Jetbikes needing "one hand to drive"... You're trying to tell me they couldn't at least mount a Dark Lance or Disintegrator onto the damn thing either?

Hellions, for 18 points each, should be a bit better than +1S on the charge... ESPECIALLY since Genestealers (with 4+ save) are 20 points each. And Hellions can't even shoot (if they want to charge), which leads into another of my points later on.


Heavy:
Scourges are expensive, especially since they are only Warriors with Jetpacks (in terms of stats)

The Ravager, the toughest vehicle the Dark Eldar possess (Ignore Asdrubael), is only 11 - 11 - 10... which means that even Heavy Bolters could do some damage to it (Admittedly it can deal out some damage... assuming it doesn't get killed. You need to be VERY careful with this thing... which limits the targets it can effective deal with. Being a Skimmer DOES help, but it also means that you can't use all the weapons and get glancing unless you use 1 disintegrator/dark lance and then burst fire 2 other disintegrators)

The talos is a beast, but it doesn't provide the sort of Mobile Firepower you would expect. Besides the fact that it is SLOW (which for a fragile army like Dark Eldar could mean death), it's Wildfire rule can bog things down. (Ok, so now I have to measure every single model in a radius? Joy.)


Perhaps one of the big gripes, besides lack of ability to make variable lists (There REALLY are only 3 valid lists...) is that the Splinter Rifle is a RAPID FIRE weapon... which means that for this mobile army, you can't even fire the thing most of the time unless you are close to the enemy. (and then don't expect to charge!) At the LEAST they should be assault weapons, since I'm pretty sure even regular Eldar have developed that ability... especially since it's only S3 AP5. It's not game breaking... (Nids can get something similar but in assault form...)



Models:

Wyches are hideous. Talos is goofy too. Love the Raider models. Warriors heads are HUGE and spikey. Leaders look odd with the giant fluffy wigs. (These are supposed to be the Eldar obessed with beauty aren't they? Why do they look hideous...)


Fluff:

It really could be broken down into one line. (and not have any other fluff to really expand upon it as has been brought up elsewhere...)






Any of these reasons (probably a combination of the rules and models though) stop people from wanting to play as Dark Eldar. Of the people I've spoken to, they told me to steer clear of them because the rules are so old and broken.

Asentaja
19-01-2008, 12:22
I think Mandrakes just need an option to take a champion of some sort, so that they could stand against armored troops. But even now I think they are worth to take, they really mess up people's plans. As for Ravagers and Raiders, smaller models are needed (the weakest vehicles should not be one of the largest in the game!), and/or perhaps some upgrades that would give them the Night Fighting cover.

AdmiralDick
19-01-2008, 20:23
just to reconfirm, my friend spoke again to his source who has now been premoted further in regional management and still maintains that the DE will be receiving a complete miniature range overhaul and a 'codex' in WD.

he gave the release scheduel as being:
Feb: Harad
Mar: Vampire Counts
Apr: Another LotR book that he didn't recognise the title of
May: Daemons
Jun: (i think) 40k 5th ed
Jul: Dark Eldar, but no other rulebook because they are running events for Warhammer's 25th
Aug: IG
Sept: Planet Strike

not sure if anyone else has given firm dates for anything yet, i don't know how this compares. (it's just what i've been told, make of it what you will).

Aurynator
19-01-2008, 21:08
Right....


First of all, I want to say, "Hi all", as this is my first post on Warseer.



Now, I have been a DE player for two years now (not long compared to some that have already posted here) and have been a bit obsessed in making this army work on tournaments. (No GT yet but working on it). I currently have a very high win ratio compared to many armies, mainly because of WWP and raiders. I have a solid wych cult army and so far this has worked best. But like a lot of you have already stated there are a few things that need fixing. I am not overly thrilled with the fact that they could be changing the whole codex and implementing Harlies into the army.. we really dont need them since we have a better unit called Wyches. But i think its well over due to fix a few of the units in the codex.

Here is the list.


HQ

I really dont think that any of the HQ choises need any fixes, not directly anyway. Incubies are my only concern in the HQ list but thats just a minor issue. Personally i think they cost to much for that added save and a S4 power weapon attack. The main reason for this is because they loose Fleet, thus slowing the unit down alot. A 300 point unit (lord included) out in the open with T3 and +3 save is not going to last long against an opponent with units that can shoot at them still. Lasguns pose a threat to this unit since they wound on 4+.


Elite.

Grotesque:
They are slow... move slow, attack slow... they are slow.. They are stupid as well... so you need a HQ guy to support them.. so now they are an expensive slow unit.. with no armour (just that silly FOP rule that will cause the enemy player to spend his tough guns on that unit rather than the others. Not that it matter much since there are no high armoured tanks or units in the DE codex) The Terror rule is poorly written and can easily cause a huge debate about wether Fearless units flee or not. (Since it states that you automatically flee without a leadership test being taken, and fearless auto pass leadership rolls, thus called fearless... Enough of that.)

Mandrakes:
With out a doubt one of the coolest concept unit in the game. Hidden deployment rule they have is awesome, so much character in that rule, reason why, how and how to present it in the model when you paint it, etc.. I love it.. But.. there is a problem there. They have no upgrade options, no squad leader at all, no grenades, so the fluff of them being able to attack with supprise any one anywhere is ruined since they cant use theire I5 on targets in cover. They have the shadow skinned rule that is also really poorly worded, as it sais that they have a 5+ cover save, even in assault. That would mean that they have cover when they charge basically, as well as when they are charged. (thus giving them I10 for the charging turn) but the problem is that in 4th Ed. there is no cover when charging, only cover when charged. So they cant use this in a charge. And who would want to keep their Mandrakes out in the open and wait for an assault on them to use the abilities they have?

Wyches:
Over all the best unit the DE have (in my humble opinion at least) Massive upgrade options, both weapon wise and utility wise. They are quite fragile but make up for it with wych weapons and Dodge ability. But there is another very poorly worded rule for them as well. It states "If the wych succubus leading the squad has a combat drug dispenser then its effects only apply to them and replace the effects of the squads own evil concoctions." (courtesy of GW and the DE codex.) The rule in terms of grammar indicates that if you buy a combat drug upgrade on your succubus then the option taken there transfers to the squad as well.. Ive had long discussions about this and this isnt really the post to tackle this particular problem but its one of the many problems this codex has.

Warp beasts:
Lovely unit pity you need wyches to buy them.


Troops

Warriors:
I like the unit bit single minded and gets boring to use solely but hey necrons have a poorer choice so i cant complain much there.

Fast attack.

Reaver bikes:
This unit is suppose to be wyches on bikes.. Great!! Even faster wyches. But.. No Grenades, no wych weapons, no invulnerable save in close combat, thus no longer wyches, exept for the combat drug option. On top of that they cost far too much for anyone to take them.. its just too expensive.

Hellions:
Again suppose to be wyches, this time on some hover disks. Poor saves, no punch in the melee phaze so you really dont use the Hit and Run rule much (should be put on the normal wych squad really) and cost too much. Plus there is a limit on how many squads you can take (one of the bugging problems with the old ork codex)

Heavy support

Scourges:
Ok, here is another brilliant idea/concept in this codex deep striking unit with heavy weapons, fast relocation maximum carnage.. Only problem is, that the lance weapon they can take is a heavy weapon, they cant move and shoot. on top of that if you decide to use those jump packs they have to move them to covers and some decent spots to take down enemies, you force them to take Dangerous terrain roll every time you want to move. They have T3 like all the other eldar models and a 5+ save. with a dark lance the model costs more than a terminator. There is a cold day in hell that ill ever consider using this unit in an army of mine.

Ravager:
Awesome... Awesome to the max. Fast, fragile, superior fire power, carnage, death, destruction... and for low point cost. on a 1500 point tournament you have 1140 points left to fill up your army after buyingthree of those with disintegrators. Just plain awesome.

Talos:
Skimmer that is not a skimmer but a walker. irregular attacks. weird shooting rule, 6" move and no fleet. Slowest unit there is (well as slow as Grotesque and incubi) and a unit you really want in the lead of your army. This unit need a complete over haul.


Ok, thats all of the units in the book, I dont want to get into the Special characters since they commonly arent allowed on tournaments and such. I'll let others comment on those.

Next up is wargear.

Ill only mention Items i consider broken.

Crucible of Malediction:
This unit can work... mostlikely it wont. It has a relative chance of working against a IG psyker but that is about it. And the point cost for this one use item is just too high.

Hellglaive/Skyboard:
If you ever want to put this on your HQ choice and put it with your hellion squad you cant use its hit and run tactic rule.. so there is no use in having this on your character. its utterly pointless. A raider does better job than this item. Nuff said.

Hell mask:
This is another debatable item/rule you can put this on a non Independent character, thats in a squad. If an enemy attacks you, he cant single out your squad leader... so what happens then? Also usually leadership is high in this game, this has a very low chance of actually working at all, even on an independent character.

Reaver Jetbike:
Too expensive, forces you to loose an attack in close combat (due to only one usable hand rule)and you cant use web way portals while on it. In alot of ways a very useless upgrade, again a raider does better than this.

Archangel of Pain:
Doesnt cost much (unlike the Crucible of Malediction) but only usable once per battle, and if you are in flaming range and you pin the enemy unit you are very likely in fleet/charge range of that unit, so why charge a possibly pinned unit?

Vexantrope:
This item helps you against Support attack rule.. That is no longer used in 4th edition since everyone in 2" range of the base to base combat can strike with full attacks. Not worth taking in any way.



Most of the things that are wrong with the DE codex are the out dated rules that the squads have. Just by revisiting the rules and clarify the army its back in top shape.
I mean sure its fragile, and weak, but the massive fire power this army has plus the might of wyches makes up for all of this. Once you get those babies in combat you just win.. you cant do anything but just that.. win.

Ill end my post here before I get too carried away with this, since i can go on with this for hours more. I sure hope we get our codex fixed since DE is a nice add to the 40K game.

WiganUltra
19-01-2008, 23:14
just to reconfirm, my friend spoke again to his source who has now been premoted further in regional management and still maintains that the DE will be receiving a complete miniature range overhaul and a 'codex' in WD.

Jul: Dark Eldar

Surely they would only do large scale releases of new models for a 'proper' new codex? Maybe if there is a WD 'codex', it's just to update them until they are redone fully. But then, I also would've thought them to be a priority within the next year or so anyway. By June this year I would hope they were close enough not to need a WD version. Unless it's a sneaky way to test some of the changes they have in mind??

AdmiralDick
20-01-2008, 09:39
Surely they would only do large scale releases of new models for a 'proper' new codex?

that's certainly been the way GW have done it in the past. however, i think they may be starting to get with to the fact that there is no necessity to do that. model and codex releases are not directly linked (in fact most other games companies don't do it that way at all), and feeling that you can only release DE models when the DE codex comes out probably harms your sales almost as much and the hype waiting creates. people will by good models for bad armies, but they won't buy bad models for good armies. to boost the popularity of DE al you need do is release loads of new models and hype them up.


Maybe if there is a WD 'codex', it's just to update them until they are redone fully.

this is exactly the point. i think they want to get the mini's range back up to scratch before they release the codex (probably alongside the final set of new models), and as they have some release 'dead time' during Jul there's no reason not to do it then. it also gives them the opportunity to release the codex after 5th so it can be better worded to fit with the game.


Unless it's a sneaky way to test some of the changes they have in mind??

you'd think it would be a bit late by then, they'd already be well into developement. what's more likely is that they are developing a more radically different codex and they are only going to publish a 'revised' codex in WD, that way you'd have some actual reason to buy the book when it comes out.

on the other hand, it could be an excuse to push them back indefinitely, like the Blood Angels (are they ever going to get their own Codex with background, and models?), but that's not the impression i was given.

Zanzibarthefirst
20-01-2008, 16:37
surely it would be alright to remodel certain models such as wyches and warriros before doing the rules. Obviously new units need to be done after the codex is written. However, i imagine that there will only be one or two new units which is fine. The only new unit nids got was the broodlord.

Defcon
21-01-2008, 08:46
Aurynator: Lots to disagree with concerning item upgrades, but a completely accurate portrayal of all of our units. I think you are dramatically underrepresenting the Reaver Jet Bike upgrade for Archons, as well as the Vexanthrope, personally, but since so much of what you said is right, this is the only real easy thing for me to pick out.

Sithlord
21-01-2008, 10:12
lotsa of DE item are waste to be take such as vexanthrope mask (which are COMPLETELY USELESS!)

Aurynator
21-01-2008, 13:38
Well the great thing about life is that people arent always in an agreement on things.

I play a wych cult army and thus cant take Archon/Drachon and since Archons dont loose the dodge bonus on the bike, and you can buy a shadow field on him as well that combo might work out.

Vexanthorpe is in my opinion a relic from earlier editions of this game. It is similar to the Grabbastick (if my memory serves me right) gave the unit the ability to use all of their attacks in support, rather than just one. Vexanthorpe basically can only work with an independent character at best. This upgrade can be bought by squad leaders (sybarite and succubus) and does nothing, since you cant pick out targets in close combat.

Many of the upgrades the DE can take can have some effect, but arent likely to do so. Soul seeking ammunition is a good example for that. It allows you to reroll to hit with any weapon with splinter technology (and ignores cover saves as well) but this at best can only be on 2 models in a unit.. so you have 2 shots that ignore cover, and allows you to reroll with a guy that has BS5 or at worst 4... the chance of you actually gaining anything from this is close to none. But its a brilliant idea.

All in all, the DE armory has some extremely powerful items (agonizer, tormentor helm, combat drugs and haywire grenades to name a few), extremely cool ideas that dont always function as they should (Hellion sky board [fact you dont get hit and run ruins this upgrade], Soul seeking ammunition and Crucible of malidiction, also not a depleted list) and out of date/ill usable items like Archangel of pain, Vexanthorpe and goblet of spite.

The_Outsider
21-01-2008, 13:48
Many of the upgrades the DE can take can have some effect, but arent likely to do so. Soul seeking ammunition is a good example for that. It allows you to reroll to hit with any weapon with splinter technology (and ignores cover saves as well) but this at best can only be on 2 models in a unit.. so you have 2 shots that ignore cover, and allows you to reroll with a guy that has BS5 or at worst 4... the chance of you actually gaining anything from this is close to none. But its a brilliant idea.



I would kill for the ability to give archons/whatever splintercannon from the armoury (or as in the case of the new codex make it a unit option).

Aurynator
21-01-2008, 13:59
I agree with you there. I would be similar to some of the Eldar upgrades.

I just dont understand why DE cant have a massive shooting HQ unit. They have all the potential to do so, I mean the archon lord and the Wych lord both have BS6, thats more than most other units/characters in the game. but they have only access to S3 ranged weapons.

Hokiecow
21-01-2008, 15:15
I would kill for the ability to give archons/whatever splintercannon from the armoury (or as in the case of the new codex make it a unit option).

Give an Archon a Splintercannon? That seems like a waste. He's supposed to be a CC monster. If your talking about a Syrabite I can understand.

It would be cool to see Archons strike some fear into the warriors to help motivate them. Seems inline with DE/pirate background.

Defcon
21-01-2008, 22:31
I was always of the opinion that the Vexanthrope, while worded poorly, would work in a perfectly fine fashion if you chopped off the "like using supporting attacks" section. Since there is no section of the rules to reference for that, it would simply read "attack someone else within 2"."

This makes it a great tool for me, as how I've been using it would indicate failed leadership generally meant if there was nobody else within 2" to attack, you simply didn't get your swings in. Obviously I'm taking liberties with it, but this seems at least to me a pretty reasonable port.

And yeah, spending points for wych dodge then hopping on a jetbike may not be awesome, but it is the only ways to get a Strength 4/To 4 character...that isn't a Haemonculus.

Kyuubi Brat
21-01-2008, 22:31
Talos:
Skimmer that is not a skimmer but a walker. irregular attacks. weird shooting rule, 6" move and no fleet. Slowest unit there is (well as slow as Grotesque and incubi) and a unit you really want in the lead of your army. This unit need a complete over haul.


Actually the Talos is a skimmer for purposes of movement and so can move 12", it only is a walker in regards to CC (i.e. troops don't need 6s to hit).

IncubiLord
21-01-2008, 23:53
Actually the Talos is a skimmer for purposes of movement and so can move 12", it only is a walker in regards to CC (i.e. troops don't need 6s to hit).
The Talos's "Skimmer" rule only allows you to ignore terrain in the middle of movement and the 4ed BGB classed the Talos as an MC. It moves 6".

Sithlord
21-01-2008, 23:55
and talos are not vehicles, they are monsterous creature. Skimmer wording are out of league!
BTW, the archon in soulstorm PC games can use both splinter cannon and agonizer.

Hokiecow
22-01-2008, 00:38
They have had some odd weapon combos for HQs in DOW.

Kyuubi Brat
22-01-2008, 10:48
The Talos's "Skimmer" rule only allows you to ignore terrain in the middle of movement and the 4ed BGB classed the Talos as an MC. It moves 6".

Well then it obviously is ambiguos, MCs can move 12" if the have jump packs, maybe GW should define it more cleary. Me and my friends have always played it as 12"...

A quick question aside, in the new DE codex would you like Tali to have 12" movement?

anglacon
22-01-2008, 11:39
If used right, the Talos is an awesome killing machine. If used wrong, it is a 100 point gift to your opponent. In almost every game I have used it, the talos has more than made up its points, and then some! The wild fire rule, though strange, is great. Forcing someone to take a savings throw on their plasma cannon, and watching that dice come up a "2", well, it just don't get much better than that! :)

If I had to change the Talos, it would be give it the new fleet rule that is rumored in 5th, give it 3+D3 attacks, and just make it assault 6. Yeah, i would miss the wild fire rule, but I think people are less likley to call "cheese".
The most important change? It is a MC... Let it armor penetrate like a MC!!!!

-Anglacon

Achilles
22-01-2008, 14:03
I would like a Talos to be the same statwise, Monstrous Creature (Like anglacon said, and penetrate like one), Fleet, and indeed Assault 6 Talos sting, at the closest enemy target.
and for a special rule, if it hits with 4 attacks it can chose to autokill 1 enemy infantry model (and incarcerate it within its bowels), similar to the old Red Terror special rule (but without the Str 4 restriction)

Aurynator
22-01-2008, 14:52
One of the main problems you face while playing DE is that if you choose a wych cult army you cant use half of the troops. Talos is out, so are Haemonculi, grotesqes and so on.

Talos would be awesome if it just had a 12" move, and some standard attacks. Personally going the middle way and have him with 3 attacks and additional close combat weapon (those huge claws are indeed some extra weapons) that would give him 5 attacks on a charge.

Other wise Im happy with the stats on him/it/her (still debated amongst many haemonculis) and point cost.

Hokiecow
22-01-2008, 17:02
It would be fun to see Talos had a veriety of CC or assult weapons to torture his prey

Wintermute
22-01-2008, 18:10
I've moved this thread to 40K General as it has ceased to be a rumours discussion and has become a 'wish list'.

Wintermute
The WarSeer Inquisition

IncubiLord
23-01-2008, 02:46
I've moved this thread to 40K General as it has ceased to be a rumours discussion and has become a 'wish list'.
...And rules discussion...

Well then it obviously is ambiguos, MCs can move 12" if the have jump packs, maybe GW should define it more cleary. Me and my friends have always played it as 12"...
The only ambiguity is the unfortunate naming of the ignores-terrain special rule for the Talos having the same name as the "Skimmer" type. If you ignore the name of that special rule (sort of like Grotesques' Feel No Pain), that problem goes away.

A quick question aside, in the new DE codex would you like Tali to have 12" movement?
No. Fleet would be enough, and more would be excessive.

One of the main problems you face while playing DE is that if you choose a wych cult army you cant use half of the troops. Talos is out, so are Haemonculi, grotesqes and so on.
"So on" being Kabalite Lords and Incubi? There aren't that many options to lose, and the increased availability of Warp Beasts isn't bad, either.

I think that the loss of options is very appropriate for the increase in base-Troop usefulness of the Wych Cult.

The_Outsider
23-01-2008, 06:36
...And rules discussion...

The only ambiguity is the unfortunate naming of the ignores-terrain special rule for the Talos having the same name as the "Skimmer" type. If you ignore the name of that special rule (sort of like Grotesques' Feel No Pain), that problem goes away.



I treat it like a monstrous creature jump infantry - looking at it like that solves the problem in one swoop.

Daredhnu
23-01-2008, 22:06
i'm working on my own codex for Dark Eldar and if anyone in here thinks they can help me with some well articulated arguments on what you like and what not of what i've written so far (it's not much yet) then i would appriciate it alot.

find my topic here (http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2289614#post2289614)

again thank you for any assistance you could give me.

IncubiLord
24-01-2008, 07:36
i'm working on my own codex for Dark Eldar and if anyone in here thinks they can help me with some well articulated arguments on what you like and what not of what i've written so far (it's not much yet) then i would appriciate it alot.
Feel free to browse my old revision (http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18440) for ideas if you'd like.

I've abandoned it because it no longer fits in with the setup of codices being produced, but there was some interesting discussion in there.