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chivalrous
01-12-2007, 04:32
The debate is raging in the Dark Elf Rumours from Italian GT (http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=113055&page=16) thread, and rather than see the discussion clog that thread up any further, I thought I'd bring it to the floor

I think the majority of us can all agree on two things:-

1)Stupidity has always been in the Cold Ones background and they should have some sort of rule to represent this on the table top.

2) The current result of a failed* stupidity test is a direct contradiction to the biggest strength of the Dark Elf army. i.e. Movement and the synchronised units strategy are (or should be) the biggest strengths of Dark Elf army and a failed stupidity test is detrimental to that strength.

So as a question to the forum:-
Assume Cold Ones have a rule that represented their dull-wittedness and sluggishness, How would you represent it? This needn't change stupidity, we can leave Stupidity as it is and create an entirely separate rule. What I'm asking for is something representative slow and Dim witted that is also compatible with Dark Elf strategy.

So, to start the ball rolling with a general out of thin air suggestion, A failed Stupidity test results in -1 to all stats except toughness and wounds. -1 Weapon skill, Initiative and Leadership is obvious, -1 Strength really representing the creature not putting all its effort into the strike and it really being a wild flail more than anything else.


*I'm deliberately not mentioning how easy/difficult failure is as there are some fairly loud voices on both sides of that debate. As far as I'm concerned, there's a 28% (5/18) chance that a Chariot will fail the test and a 17% (1/6) chance the Cold One Knights will fail. A unit near a Highborn will fail 8% (1/12) of the time. For the record Saurus will fail 13% of the time (29/216) 0r 6% (14/216) near a Slann. I'm not interested in what peoples perceptions of the current rule are, that has been discussed to death, we all know some people like it some don't, so no people asking "Why do you want to change it", no "stupidity SUXXORZ" (or however you're supposed to spell 'sucks' in prat speak.), no "there's no problems with it as it is" that's a different debate. Nor do I want people to start harping on aabout extra attacks, toughness or Frenzy. Stick to the topic please :)

txamil
01-12-2007, 08:37
The more interesting the special rule, the less likely it will be properly balanced point-wise.

Yours looks good. How about if you fail the stupidity test, the riders can use/forfeit one attack each to 'properly motivate' their respective mounts.

HughbertofKhorne
01-12-2007, 10:02
yeah but the handicap stupidity represents to Dark Elf tactics is kind of the point. Uber killy unit, sometimes it doesnt move.

changing it so that the Cold One riders are more mobile would make them insane, and they're already an unpleasant oponent as it is (cos lets face it, with Elf Leadership they pass more often than they fail)

Dominatrix
01-12-2007, 11:21
An idea would be to replace stupidity with the BoC Centigor "drunken" rule or the Beastherd "unruly" rule.

As it is the stupidity in the CoK thing is really a cruel joke. An army supposed to be all about tactics and superiority in the movement phase should not have this.

Or if GW is unwilling to remove stupidity from cold ones maybe give DE chariots and cavalry pulled by other mounts as well? DE are well known for using all kinds of gribblies. They even have heros whose background revolves around training monsters.

chivalrous
01-12-2007, 11:45
yeah but the handicap stupidity represents to Dark Elf tactics is kind of the point. Uber killy unit, sometimes it doesnt move.

changing it so that the Cold One riders are more mobile would make them insane, and they're already an unpleasant oponent as it is (cos lets face it, with Elf Leadership they pass more often than they fail)
This thread is not intended to debate how suitable the rule is. Rather I want to see if anyone has any sensible and balanced alternatives


*I'm deliberately not mentioning how easy/difficult failure is as there are some fairly loud voices on both sides of that debate. As far as I'm concerned, there's a 28% (5/18) chance that a Chariot will fail the test and a 17% (1/6) chance the Cold One Knights will fail. A unit near a Highborn will fail 8% (1/12) of the time. For the record Saurus will fail 13% of the time (29/216) 0r 6% (14/216) near a Slann. I'm not interested in what peoples perceptions of the current rule are, that has been discussed to death, we all know some people like it some don't, so no people asking "Why do you want to change it", no "stupidity SUXXORZ" (or however you're supposed to spell 'sucks' in prat speak.), no "there's no problems with it as it is" that's a different debate. Nor do I want people to start harping on aabout extra attacks, toughness or Frenzy. Stick to the topic please :)

Gazak Blacktoof
01-12-2007, 11:48
yeah but the handicap stupidity represents to Dark Elf tactics is kind of the point. Uber killy unit, sometimes it doesnt move.

changing it so that the Cold One riders are more mobile would make them insane, and they're already an unpleasant opponent as it is (cos lets face it, with Elf Leadership they pass more often than they fail)

Well said. I think this is the intent of the rule- whether stupidity represents this is a different matter.

Any rule replacing stupidity for cold one knights needs to have a detrimental effect on the unit's movement.

Is stupidity annoying? Yes, but so is the fact that undead units can only hold during a charge.

I do think that they should get their blood scent back (or what ever the rule was called), this would make feeding the unit fodder a double edged sword as it would allow the cold one knights more control over their beasts.

EDIT:
This thread is not intended to debate how suitable the rule is. Rather I want to see if anyone has any sensible and balanced alternatives

Surely the crux of the debate is whether they need a different rule? Any balanced alternative IMO is going to be placing similar restrictions on the unit.

C-Coen
01-12-2007, 12:07
Maybe something like 'if Ld-test is failed, the unit either does nothing (1-4 on D6) or charges the closest target (5-6).
This still makes them a bit unreliable, but possible in a killy way.
And it's a very easy rule.

chivalrous
01-12-2007, 12:50
Surely the crux of the debate is whether they need a different rule? Any balanced alternative IMO is going to be placing similar restrictions on the unit.

If this was the place for the debate. The trouble is the debate tends to end up with the same points going around and around. On one hand, the biggest strength (if not the only strength) of the Dark Elves is their movement and with so many perceived weaknesses some players feel their getting punched in the gut.
On the other hand, Dark elves do have a high leadership and (is my personal opinion) stupidity doesn't play that big a part.

But there seems to be enough feeling that there should be something akin to stupidity, there should be some sort of detrimental effect but it shouldn't affect movement to the extent that it currently does.


but so is the fact that undead units can only hold during a charge.
The Undead rule however applies army wide and dictates the style of how the army operates.
With Dark Elves relying on synchronised charging, not only do you require the support unit to support the Cold One Knights but you then need a support unit for the support unit should the Cold Ones fail a Stupidity test and not be able to charge. With Dark Elves fielding comparatively small armies, they don't have enough units to do this.

*sigh*

B#3& it; everyone debate away, just try to offer some reasonable and sensible alternatives if you disagree with the current effects of stupidity

Tzeentch Loyalist
01-12-2007, 14:09
I had my cold one knight fail their stupidity test every time I needed them to charge the opponent. Whenever I needed them, they failed, even with a highborn. Somebody brought this up before; if they are within charging distance, they do not suffer from stupidity due to being able to sense their prey. Yes they are slow and dim witted beasts, however, they are still beast. Basic instinct tells a beast when food is near and when it should strike. If any of you have read the Malus Darkblade books, you would know that the cold ones were not completely dumb beast, but sometimes difficult to control. Maybe the rule should be somewhere in between stupidity and frenzy. No extra attack, but if an enemy model or unit is within charging distance, the rider must pass a leadership test in order not to charge. It still makes the unit unrelieable due to the forced charge on a failed leadership test, but it also highlights the aggressiveness of the cold one itself. The downside is the unit charges something it has no hope of defeating or leaves the cold ones unsupported. The positive side is, they do not just sit there and stare off into space, awaiting to be an expensive pin cushion. I think this plays more to the cold ones nature than stupidity does.

silashand
01-12-2007, 14:26
I agree with TL. If Stupidity has to stay, have it be ignored if they are in charge range of an opponent. Either that or make it simpler: they don't suffer from stupidity on the turn they declare a charge.

Cheers, Gary

truthsayer
01-12-2007, 15:11
they don't suffer from stupidity on the turn they declare a charge.

Cheers, Gary

We have a winner everybody!

Nice and easy, no taking away stats or doing this or that. Im playing a game not keeping records.

Give the Cold Ones back their 2 attacks and leave stupidity as it is except the rule above. Thats the only thing that stops me using any kind of cold one related unit, the fact that whenever I can declare a charge they go stupid and lose me the initiative. Its sods law.

This rule gets rid of that mostly, ok, they may still wander out of the battle-line and then take a charge but that doesnt happen that often and would keep with the fluff of the cold ones moving forward for a better look or sniffing out food. When the dark elves want to charge they whip the cold ones and spur them on to the attack. (even a cow would move when whipped or poked).

Excellent work Silashand.

vorac
01-12-2007, 16:07
i also agree with TL, but then you could also remove stupidity because GW did do it for Malus Darkblades coldone Spite, the fact that some people believe COK are really hitty isn't really true, a unit of inner circle knights with the banner of the Daemonslayer will hit harder,cause fear,have a better save and charge the same distance.

guillaume
01-12-2007, 18:36
Ouaha! I am happy with that. The lizardmen cold one riders will be more reliable! sure. Remember that a boost to the dark elves cold ones, will be a boost to the lizardmen cold one as well. And those can be pretty deadly as lizzies get more attacks than the DE.

Dominatrix
01-12-2007, 20:26
Ouaha! I am happy with that. The lizardmen cold one riders will be more reliable! sure. Remember that a boost to the dark elves cold ones, will be a boost to the lizardmen cold one as well. And those can be pretty deadly as lizzies get more attacks than the DE.

Don't get your hopes up. Maybe GW might justify it by saying that DE use their beastmasters to train their cold ones and make them more boodthirsty or whatever. Lizardmen don't have any so their cold ones might stay stupid. Or they may lose stupidity as well.

sulla
01-12-2007, 21:19
This thread is not intended to debate how suitable the rule is. Rather I want to see if anyone has any sensible and balanced alternatives

GW themselves already have an alternative. In the 2004 (I think) chronicles, there was a lustrian monster list. In it were packs of cold ones. Obviously, with Ld 3 and stupidity these would never do anything all game, so they introduced a rule whereby any failed stupidity test would make the cold ones move as quickly as possible towards the nearest enemy unit that had suffered any wounds.

The cold one packs were skirmishers so they were far more manouverable than a unit of cold one knights could be, but a similar rule would work.. Perhaps if they fail their test, they must move towards the closest enemy unit in LoS, counting as a charge if contact would be made. This let's them have some measure of control while still being unruly, unreliable beasts.

It still doesn't solve the problem that when they finally do hit, they are still mediocre cav at best, but it's a step in the right direction...

blurred
01-12-2007, 22:17
they don't suffer from stupidity on the turn they declare a charge.

Nice and simple. Call it "Superior training" or something like that. I like it. :)

Gazak Blacktoof
01-12-2007, 22:41
I've been thinking about it this afternoon and the problem is probably stupidity itself. I'd rather see that replaced with another rule than have an exception for one of the few units that actually uses the rule. Trolls rarely get taken because they are stupid and a lot of dark elf players feel the same about COK.

silashand
01-12-2007, 22:56
The advantage of the simple idea I proposed is it does still leave Stupidity as a liability because if you don't declare a charge you risk them causing you to move out of position, or worse, *not* be able to move into position to declare a charge. While I think Stupidity as a whole should be eliminated, if it has to stay then the above is both simple and easy to implement. Whether it applies to DE cold ones only or not would be up to debate, but since this is an army book rule I think it would probably be tied to the training/breaking done by the beastmasters. JMO though...

Cheers, Gary

chivalrous
02-12-2007, 00:58
I agree with TL. If Stupidity has to stay, have it be ignored if they are in charge range of an opponent. Either that or make it simpler: they don't suffer from stupidity on the turn they declare a charge.

The latter I think, but there is the problem that in the current order of things, the Stupidity test is taken before charges are declared.


Somebody brought this up before; if they are within charging distance, they do not suffer from stupidity due to being able to sense their prey....Maybe the rule should be somewhere in between stupidity and frenzy. No extra attack, but if an enemy model or unit is within charging distance, the rider must pass a leadership test in order not to charge.
Yes, I prefer this, there is still a Leadership test associated with Stupidity but two situations in which it is taken.


If any of you have read the Malus Darkblade books, you would know that the cold ones were not completely dumb beast, but sometimes difficult to control.
Bear in mind Spite is an unusual cold One, noticably more intelligent than other Cold Ones. He is the exception rather than the rule.
Saying all Cold Ones are as intelligent as Spite is like saying all human beings are as intelligent as Stephen Hawking or Albert Einstein.

ashaman76
02-12-2007, 03:09
I like Txamil's idea of the riders' losing an attack to "properly motivate" the beasts to move if stupid. Seems appropriate.

chivalrous
02-12-2007, 03:21
I like Txamil's idea of the riders' losing an attack to "properly motivate" the beasts to move if stupid. Seems appropriate.

It's not much of a loss though if the beast acts stupid in a turn when you're not going to charge though but it's crucial you move in order to line a charge up in your the next turn or move out of the way of an impending charge next opponent turn.
It could also be argued that while it's not a bad idea for Lizardmen who if I remember correctly, have two attacks per rider, it's not brilliant for Dark Elf Cold One Knights only have one attack per rider. Still it represents a negative effect and at least with this suggestion, they still get to make the charge and aren't left out in the sticks waiting to get belted themselves.

Druchii Love
02-12-2007, 04:42
Unfortunately I don't think that rule would work. As stated you would measure your distance, "yup, my opponent is in charge range so no stupidity this turn" and then KNOW you're in charge range. So much for the tactic of guessing...

My suggestion would have been a unit with Cold Ones do not roll for Stupidity on the turn they charge but unfortunately rolling for Stupidity comes before Charge Declaration. Bah. If they give back the Blood Banner which erases stupidity on the knights, I'm all good.

chivalrous
02-12-2007, 05:06
Unfortunately I don't think that rule would work. As stated you would measure your distance, "yup, my opponent is in charge range so no stupidity this turn" and then KNOW you're in charge range. So much for the tactic of guessing...

Unless... You take the stupidity test first as normal. If you then fail, measure to see if there is a unit within charge arc and within distance. If there is, then you must charge it. If there are several charge the closest.
If the unit is not able to charge then follow the normal rules for a unit acting stupidly.

SV_Harlequin
02-12-2007, 05:21
How about something like like "if stupid they move at half speed" represents them not paying attention properly but just blindly moving forward due to being prodded/poked/spurred by thie riders.

Or
something like being immune to stupidity after they have attacked/killed/won combat showing that they are now fully commited to blood lust and killing/eating overiding any further chances of being stupid.

Or just bring back the Old Banner that fixed/canceled their stupidity

Or bring in some new breed of cold ones, 2 breeds -the dumb/stupid standard one we have now and bring back the Raptors as less strong but not stupid.

Shank
02-12-2007, 23:30
Cold Ones being stupid is just one of those things you have to live with when playing the Dark Elves. Orcs have animosity, we have stupid Cold Ones. So all this talk about changing the rule just won't happen. Heck, in the rule book Colds Ones are one of the examples of Stupid creatures! They aren't rewriting the rulebook. But that doesn't mean some things can't be done to ease it's effects. Here are some of my suggestions:
- all cold one units are leadership 9. Even Chariots
- Cold Ones need to be improved to make the risk of going "stupid" worth it. They should have the stats similar to the "Lions" pulling the lion chariot in the High Elf book. Less move, say 7 and lower iniative, say 2.
- If a Highborne or Noble is riding a Cold One in a Cold One unit, you may re-roll failed Stupidity Tests
- make one magic item, either banner or enchanted item that lets you re-roll one Psychology test per game. This should help you if you don't have a noble or Highborn in a cold one unit.
- give us another alternative. High Elves have 2 Heavy Cav. units. Now, I like the Dark Elves quick. I love Dark Riders, but they are way too expensive if you give them repeater crossbows. Make Dark Riders come standard with spear and repeater crossbow for 22 points. But also give them the option of switching out spear/ repeater crossbow for a lance and shield for same price. That would be a cool flanking unit and would stick to the "Quick" theme of the Dark Elves.
You see, it is not the "Stupid" rule you have to fix, but the army.

theunwantedbeing
02-12-2007, 23:40
Keep them stupid.
Just give them cold blooded.

Then boost their stats to be at least on par with those white lions pulling the white lion high elf chariot.
Then it doesnt matter if they go stupid (they dont even need the cold blooded).
You'll have a unit of really nasty lizards and whether they get to charge or get charged it wont matter.

They are ld9 currently anyway, which is plenty high enough to not suffer from stupidty all the time.
You take multiple units to offset the stupidty as you are very unlikely to fail all the tests.

Bring back the stupidty cancelling banner by all means but plenty wont bother taking it, a war banner is more useful in most cases.
Let beastmasters have non-stupid cold ones as mounts, and perhaps units joined by beastmasters also have non-stupid mounts while the beastmaster is alive.
Represents his "intelligent" cold one helping lead the other cold ones...bit like a packmaster.

chivalrous
03-12-2007, 02:05
Keep them stupid.
Just give them cold blooded.
But the riders aren't, not when they're elves anyway, unless you're suggesting testing on the Cold One's leadership ;)


Let beastmasters have non-stupid cold ones as mounts, and perhaps units joined by beastmasters also have non-stupid mounts while the beastmaster is alive.
Represents his "intelligent" cold one helping lead the other cold ones...bit like a packmaster.

GW have already vetoed the idea of the Beastmaster giving a re-roll or an all out negation, but a +1 modifier to the tests is a thought.

I wonder how 'fluffy' it is for Beastmaster to be riding out with a unit of Knights despite maintining the creatures while they're stabled. You don't see squires riding out in units of Knights of the Realm do you :)

lparigi34
03-12-2007, 03:04
My opinion and taking into account the phases order in the game, Stupidity + Frenzy for the Cold One will do the job.

So, they'll be difficult to handle when not in the hunt and will behave recklessly when a prey is in sight.

If a unit fails its stupidity test but then right in the next phase finds itself in charge range the stupidity test will be override by the frenzy.

The mount frenzy is not transmitted to the rider, so the cold one will gain +1A, but no the guy on top of it. DE CO's cost must be adjusted properly.

In this case the situation is both a bonus and a liability, as cunning players know how to take advantage of frenzy to divert dangerous units from the main action.

Also IMO this also represents the way DE CO riders must behave: unreliable monsters that are extremely dangerous if properly handled into combat.

A possible way to sate the rule is: DE Cold Ones Mood:: Cold One Rider units will test for Ld at the beginning of the turn, if the test is failed the Cold Ones (but not the riders) will suffer from a) Stupidity if no enemy units are within charge range or b) frenzy if enemy units are within charge range.

Also being this a special rule, another possibility is that the frenzy achieved this way may never be lost after gained and you don't have to check for DE Cold Ones Mood: again during the game.

Or right the opposite; being this subject to a special Ld check you must test for DE Cold Ones Mood: every turn (unless in CC at the beginning of the turn)

RipFlag
03-12-2007, 03:41
Cold Ones being stupid is just one of those things you have to live with when playing the Dark Elves. Orcs have animosity, we have stupid Cold Ones. So all this talk about changing the rule just won't happen. Heck, in the rule book Colds Ones are one of the examples of Stupid creatures! They aren't rewriting the rulebook. But that doesn't mean some things can't be done to ease it's effects. Here are some of my suggestions:
- all cold one units are leadership 9. Even Chariots
- Cold Ones need to be improved to make the risk of going "stupid" worth it. They should have the stats similar to the "Lions" pulling the lion chariot in the High Elf book. Less move, say 7 and lower iniative, say 2.
- If a Highborne or Noble is riding a Cold One in a Cold One unit, you may re-roll failed Stupidity Tests
- make one magic item, either banner or enchanted item that lets you re-roll one Psychology test per game. This should help you if you don't have a noble or Highborn in a cold one unit.
- give us another alternative. High Elves have 2 Heavy Cav. units. Now, I like the Dark Elves quick. I love Dark Riders, but they are way too expensive if you give them repeater crossbows. Make Dark Riders come standard with spear and repeater crossbow for 22 points. But also give them the option of switching out spear/ repeater crossbow for a lance and shield for same price. That would be a cool flanking unit and would stick to the "Quick" theme of the Dark Elves.
You see, it is not the "Stupid" rule you have to fix, but the army.

I do not think i could have said it better. Really there just needs to a mechanism that makes Cold one knights not fail that crucial charge, or that if they are stupid, make opponents still not really want to charge them. Eg make cold ones actually good mounts,.

I do like the frenzy vs stupidity concept for cold ones. I think that it would be quit fluffy as well, but I alas, do not see it happening. I think a 75pts banner all units within 12" re-roll psychology checks, so than your whole cold one flank can be reliable, and DE players are forced to field those horrible Battle standard bearers.

txamil
03-12-2007, 18:24
there just needs to a mechanism that makes Cold one knights not fail that crucial charge, or that if they are stupid, make opponents still not really want to charge them. Eg make cold ones actually good mounts,.


It can be done, but I just don't think DE players are going to be willing to pay the pt cost for it.

RustyHarlequin
03-12-2007, 18:45
The simplest and most logical way of simulating Cold Ones stupidity and aggressiveness would be to use a rule like Goblinoid animosity - essentially no leadership test, just on a roll of a 1 the riders are likely to be unable to get their lizards to do as they are told as they snap at each other (& the riders) or the lizards get it into their little minds that that unit nearby is the enemy/food and they charge them etc.

:evilgrin:

pcgamer72
03-12-2007, 20:16
Allowing Cold Ones to not suffer from Stupidity on the charge leaves room for some players to abuse the rule. If they are march blocked, they could simply declare a charge which they know they lack range for (but still kind of close) to negate Stupidity.

I'm not saying very many people would do this, but you'd be surprised!

malisteen
03-12-2007, 20:36
The problem is one of risk vs. reward. The high points cost of cold one knights, the frail nature of elves, and the interdependance of units in the dark elf army mean that the risk represented by stupidity, even at leadership 9, is very heavy indeed. On the other hand, the reward - Normal Heavy Cav with S4 horses and slightly above average Ws, is not that impressive. The speed and strength of a Unit of Cold One Knights isn't really anything to write home about, and while the durability of the unit compared model to model with other DE units is pretty good, it's isn't as impressive when you start looking point to point.

So Cold One Knights suffer from an unfavorable risk vs. reward balance. If they don't work, something you as a player have no control over, then the loss is very significant. If they do work, then what you get just isn't very impressive. COKs need to represent either less risk (via no stupidity or mitigated stupidity or reduced points cost) or more reward (via more offensive power, more defensive power, or some combination of the two).

My proposals? One or more of the following:

- If Cold Ones fail a stupidity test, the Dark Elf player may choose to charge an enemy unit in the Cold One's line of sight instead. (already mentioned in the thread, I think this is a good idea)

- Significantly reduce the points cost of Cold One Knights

- Give Cold Ones an extra point of attack and weapon skill

- Change the rules for cavalry in Warhammer Fantasy so that cavalry models use the toughness of the mount if it is greater then that of the rider, making Cold One Knights T4

- Give Cold One Knights sea dragon cloaks

- Make the Lances of Cold One Knights armor piercing.

- Make Cold Ones M8

- Make Cold One Knights cold blooded (representing the numbing effects of the cold one poison they have to cover themselves in so the beasts won't attack them).

Akroma
03-12-2007, 21:10
when i made my last game i had 2 chariots in...
i failed 4 out of 7 possible tests (4 rounds, 1 chariot was killed in round 3!)
i was so angry... this completely destroyed my plans - again!
every game i fail some tests and only questions is: does this screw up the game or can i still survive?!

i mean... i am happy for fear and T5 but is stupidity like this needed? i am playing elves... i have no problems with a weak point in that army - even the 'disadvantage' of hatred is ok, because i know what will happen - but this random factor is just annoying... i can play orcs or skaven for that...
cold ones are slow and 1A S4 isn't scary at all - fear is ok but for this price?
i am not happy with the current situation, that's a fact...
even charging the next opponent when failing a test would be much better - so i can make plans with this...
if GW changes nothing with stupidity on cold ones they need to be better... 2A for example - or M8

Petey
03-12-2007, 21:42
to lparigi34
Your suggestion to give Cold ones both stupidity and frenzy is the most brilliant thing i ve ever heard on the subject.
It's both elegant and simple. It's easy to implement and to remember. If they lose a combat the get rattled a bit so no more bloodlust, though with elven leadership they probably wont run.
All they need to do is put one paragraph in to clarify for idiots how it works (ie that if something is chargable, they will, and if not roll for stupidity)
I applaud you.

malisteen
03-12-2007, 22:07
I thought having frenzy made you immune to other psychology until the frenzy was lost. Am I making that up? Or is that an old rule?

Gazak Blacktoof
03-12-2007, 22:11
old rule. It now ignores only fear, terror and panic. The same things that are covered by ITP.

GrogsnotPowwabomba
04-12-2007, 15:24
I think any of these ideas are an improvement over stupidity. Stupidity is the worst possible rule for the Dark Elf army, and I'm not confident it captures what Cold Ones are about. I see them more as unruly/tempermental mounts than stupid creatures that just mill about when there are tasty things on the battle field to munch on.

a) After a turn of combat the stupidity is removed.

b) Unruly rule similar to Beastmen

c) A rule similar to what Knight Errtants have (Ld test to resist charging an enemy)


yeah but the handicap stupidity represents to Dark Elf tactics is kind of the point. Uber killy unit, sometimes it doesnt move.

Too bad they aren't uber-killy to counter-balance the unreliability...

GrogsnotPowwabomba
04-12-2007, 15:30
My opinion and taking into account the phases order in the game, Stupidity + Frenzy for the Cold One will do the job.

Wow, this might just do it. Excellent idea actually!

Havock
04-12-2007, 21:16
An idea would be to replace stupidity with the BoC Centigor "drunken" rule or the Beastherd "unruly" rule.

Last one was exactly what came into my mind when I read the BoC book two days ago. From the Malus novels, the cold ones seemed more like being stubborn beasties who occasionally do their own thing.
Maybe change it something like if it fails it's stupidity test, but an enemy is in range, it must charge. Like frenzy, but without the benefits (except immune to psych)


Or if GW is unwilling to remove stupidity from cold ones maybe give DE chariots and cavalry pulled by other mounts as well? DE are well known for using all kinds of gribblies. They even have heros whose background revolves around training monsters.

A chariot pulled by a war hydra.

I like :p

chivalrous
04-12-2007, 21:36
From the Malus novels, the cold ones seemed more like being stubborn beasties who occasionally do their own thing.

How many Cold One's are there in the Malus books, more to the point, how many Cold Ones are described in enough detail for you to form this opinion?
If it's just Spite, then it should be noted that Spite is an exception to the rule.

I've said this before in another thread: Saying all Cold Ones are as clever as Spite is like saying all human beings are a clever as Stephen Hawking or Albert Einstein.

Akroma
04-12-2007, 23:12
in the first book he's riding with a complete group of cold one knights (the following books have complete battles with CoK or CoC) - so yes, there are more CO described!

i just don't get why a boar should be stronger when attacking and more clever too - at least they don't have this rule... even their rider are more stupid than CO :angel:

Shank
04-12-2007, 23:24
Well, I am pretty sure they are going to "Beef" up Cold Ones considerably. Just by looking at the new model for it, it needs to be one tough lizard. I believe the new cold ones will be much tougher than a Boar. And your comparison Akroma to Boar Boyz isn't really a good one. They do suffer from Animosity which is easier to roll.
But to all, I don't think Stupidity is going away. But the new book will have better ways to deal with it.

Warhammerrox
05-12-2007, 00:16
Well, considering they jacked up the price of my Boar Boyz for no real reason seeing as they are only marginaly decent medium cavalry to 22pts... Cold Ones are going to have be devastating now, if they stay around 29pts for being a far superior creature...

If they get any more buffs for being a fear causing mount with a deft Elf on top and dare to come down in price then I think more of us O&G players will burn our books... :D :wtf:

Shank
05-12-2007, 02:32
The reason Boar Boys got jacked up was they were too cheap in the last book. 22 points is just right. T4, and the boar is Strength 5 on a charge. Still cheap heavy cav. Before, they were cheaper than most Fast Calvary!!

Akroma
05-12-2007, 16:30
And your comparison Akroma to Boar Boyz isn't really a good one. They do suffer from Animosity which is easier to roll.


i am very sure its easier to fail a LD test on 8 (for chariots) than roll a 1 on a D6...
stupidity is worse for sure... an extramovement for cav is not that bad too i think... :skull:
chance for failing LD test on 8 is 27,777...% ; for LD 9 (the CoK) it's 16,666...% which is 1/6 - same as failing the animosity test! but animosity does not reduce attacks and can be positive...

but i agree - i think they will make major changes here

Gazak Blacktoof
05-12-2007, 18:26
Actually they "fail" on a 1 and a 6.

Whilst the 6 can be beneficial it can also mess you right up.

A 1 on a turn when a Waaagh! is called can also destroy or severely cripple a unit in a much more direct manner than a failed stupidity test.

It is also possible to boost Ld to 10 the equivalent for animosity is placing a black orc character in the unit who will proceed to smash the unit to pieces if they roll a 1 for an animosity test at any point.