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Master Incarias
02-12-2007, 23:46
Very simple, really. Do War Machine crew block Line of Sight from their Machine?

RipFlag
03-12-2007, 00:08
Since your machine cannot see no. Your crew are the eyes of your machine, and since they are treated like skirmishers it is inferred they have 360 line of sight. not that this is often need because:

For the purposes of shooting you can swivel you war machine in any direction. Thus your crew are your line of sight. During your shooting phase you need not have started off being able to "see" your target.

I have a question though, for the purposes of deploying scouts, does the crew and war machine count as 360% line of sight?

Palatine Katinka
03-12-2007, 00:22
According to p269 of the hardback rulebook (a useful page sadly not included in the BFSP version) War Machines "Move as skirmishers, with the exceptions noted in their rules." Earlier on the same page it defines this "As Skirmishers: No need to turn or wheel, can pivot on the spot with no penalty, 360 arc of sight for charges, etc,..." and some other stuff less relevant. To me, this suggests permenant 360 arc of sight, unlike Fast Cav. who only get it during the Shooting Phase.

Ganymede
03-12-2007, 00:27
Page 85: Normally, the controlling player must be able to draw line of sight to the target from the machine itself.

Unless there is a specific exception in the warmachine's entry, you draw line of sight from the machine itself.

Palatine Katinka
03-12-2007, 00:40
The question was about LoS from the machine and, as skirmishers, the crew wouldn't block LoS from other models in the unit. It all depends on how much they act like skirmishers.

Greyfire
03-12-2007, 03:16
Are you asking from the perspective of blocking scouts from deploying (so that what they can see matters) or from the perspective of shooting?

If from shooting, there's no worries since the rules say to pivot the machine and then fire. Implied in that is that the crew moves out of the way. No LOS problems there for shooting.

If it's for checking for scout deployment, then this would be the first time I've heard someone ask if a crewmember could see through the cannon (or the opposite). Like everyone else says, the entire unit is a skirmisher and skirmishing units don't block their own LOS.

Granted, I'm guessing a bit here about why you're asking. Can you tell us more about the specific case you have in mind? I'm kinda curious. Thanks!

-=- Steve

RipFlag
03-12-2007, 03:42
*hijacks thread*
Ok so here is the scenario, i think on my part this is ALOT of wishful thinking

So here is a Dwarf cannon, C is the Cannon, and the D's are crew, the three crew are only on the one side,

D C
D C SSSSS
C
D C

would the cannon block line of sight for the purposes of deploying scouts in this situation? Given that the scouts are 10' away from the cannon.

Greyfire
03-12-2007, 04:39
would the cannon block line of sight for the purposes of deploying scouts in this situation? Given that the scouts are 10' away from the cannon.
No, the scouts may not go there. The main reason is that the cannon is not "scenery" so it doesn't count for the "in or behind" bit of the scout rule. So no worries there.

I've never seen anothing that indicates a cannon would block LOS for the crew. (If I'm mistaken I'm sure someone will correct me, please.)

-=- Steve

DeathlessDraich
03-12-2007, 11:31
Very simple, really. Do War Machine crew block Line of Sight from their Machine?

Not sure what is being asked here but I would like to add variations to the other answers:

1) Will the war machine or just the machine itself block LOS of other units?
The warmachine as a whole blocks LOS.
If it has been abandoned, then a dice roll is needed. Under 6th edition an abandoned warmachine is treated as open ground.
This rule is absent in 7th, although personally I feel it should have been the same as 6th ed rules.


According to p269 of the hardback rulebook (a useful page sadly not included in the BFSP version) War Machines "Move as skirmishers, with the exceptions noted in their rules." Earlier on the same page it defines this "As Skirmishers:

Just the movement (Remaining moves) is treated as skirmishers. To qualify for 360 LOS and the purposes of deploying Scouts, the warmachine unit's *Facing* has to be 360.
This is not stated in the rules and leads to some uncertainty.
However, all players I know deems the warmachine to have 360 LOS all the time.


No, the scouts may not go there. The main reason is that the cannon is not "scenery" so it doesn't count for the "in or behind" bit of the scout rule. So no worries there.

I've never seen anothing that indicates a cannon would block LOS for the crew. (If I'm mistaken I'm sure someone will correct me, please.)

-=- Steve

If the cannon is abandoned and the crew has rallied and is considering declaring a charge, it is sometimes interpreted that the cannon (machine) will block LOS - I prefer to use 6th rules and treat the machine as open ground.

Master Incarias
03-12-2007, 11:55
Okay, let's see if I can make a nifty (hrm) letter diagram to explain.

O=Other units.
G=Organ Gun
C=Crew

Here be enemies

OOOOO G OOOO
OOOOO CCC OOOO

Can the Organ Gun shoot straight behind it?

DeathlessDraich
03-12-2007, 12:16
Yes, the warmachine can pivot and shoot in any direction, even the shot may seem to go through a crewman.

Master Incarias
03-12-2007, 12:39
But why? Okay, I know why, but where in the rules does it say this? It can pivot, this is not in question, but it's only stated that the unit moves like Skirmishers, not that it shoots like them. Am I wrong? References anyone?

Greyfire
03-12-2007, 13:53
But why? Okay, I know why, but where in the rules does it say this? It can pivot, this is not in question, but it's only stated that the unit moves like Skirmishers, not that it shoots like them. Am I wrong? References anyone?
Everyone I know just move the crew behind the machine when it pivots to fire. I don't think I can find a rule for that, probably just applying common sense (British common sense and not American common sense, I fear). There's no RAW as written except maybe an interpretation that when the rules say "pivot warmachine" they mean "pivot warmachine model". I believe that is what we have always done. That would include the crew. But again that's an interpretation. None of that's a RAW though. Maybe check the years old FAQ has something about that?

-=- Steve

Chaos Undecided
03-12-2007, 14:23
Trouble with physically moving the crew models is you might get someone arguing you've moved a move or fire unit and therefore the cannon (or whatever) can no longer fire that turn.

Common Sense implies that the crew will be far from stationary whilst manning a gun what with aiming reloading clearing the barrel etc so it makes more sense to ignore the positioning of the crew for the purpose of firing. Their positioning only becomes important should the warmachine become involved in close combat.

D-Archangel
03-12-2007, 18:40
how else can a (real life) warmachine pivot then by some action from the crew? if you count that as moving, you should count bowmen drawing their bowstring as movement too. which I don't :p

and when a warmachine is charged, doesn't it say in the BRB that the crew move in front of their machine (or rear, or flank, whatever) to protect their warmachine??

DeathlessDraich
03-12-2007, 19:27
As Chaos undecided pointed out, if the crew is moved or re-positioned then the warmachine has moved and may not fire - pg 85

Re-positioning the crew to enable a pivot is acceptable if the enemy has no ranged attacks.
Any ranged attack is deemed to be within range if a crew member or machine is within range. Therefore moving a crewman might take the warmachine unit out of range by almost 1".

There should not and cannot be any real life comparison for Warhammer. A move or shoot restriction does not occur in real life as you pointed out D-Archangel.
I think the situation calls for a little 'adjustment' either in the pivot or a slight displacement of crewmen; whichever is acceptably fair under the circumstances.

Greyfire
04-12-2007, 04:20
Re-positioning the crew to enable a pivot is acceptable if the enemy has no ranged attacks.
You're meaning if the warmachine crew is going to be the target of a range attack on her opponent's following turn then the warmachine shouldn't be able to pivot? So the warmachine player will need to know if the opponent will be shooting the warmachine on the following turn, or even if the warmachine could be an eligible target on that following turn? Would the same be true for a charge declaration on the following turn?

Anyway, I couldn't resist the questions. :evilgrin: Someone could try to make use of the pivot part of the firing rule to avoid these things like you describe but I've never seen anyone try it. It hadn't actually occurred to me that someone would try to do this intentionally. But it's a friendly bunch we have locally so I may just be getting way lucky (that would balance out for the dice rolls I suppose).

DeathlessDraich, have you had a problem with some people taking their warmachines out of range by doing the pivot? Is it a tactic used in some of the tournaments out there?

Seriously, this hasn't mattered overly much in any of the games I've played or watched over the past few years. Everyone just pivots the warmachine, putting the crew around it and let's loose a volley of fire that usually causes the warmachine to blow itself up, saving the enemy any effort at earning VP. :) KABOOM!

-=- Steve

DeathlessDraich
04-12-2007, 10:52
1) No, the machine always pivots to shoot. It is re-positioning or moving the crewmen which is forbidden and if has to be done must be done with consideration of the opponent's next ranged attack.

2) There will be no problems with charges as the crew has to always position itself between the machine and chargers, no matter where they are.
Many players do this during the charge response sub phase and the chargers benefit from an extra fraction of an inch for the charge range.

3) Problems in real play - not really. Most players simply re-position the crew men without a thought. Our club tends to stick to the rules as closely as possible (simply as good practice even though we are very laid back) and players always inform their opponents and take care in re-positioning.

Greyfire
04-12-2007, 20:41
First off, thanks for taking my questions in the spirit that I intended - just questions - and not an attempt at anything more serious. With that said... :)


1) 2) There will be no problems with charges as the crew has to always position itself between the machine and chargers, no matter where they are.

I don't think I was clear - a successful charge to the warmachine means hitting either the machine or one of the crew, right? The war hydra is the only unit I know of that says to ignore the crew (i.e., handlers) for charge resolution. Hmm... I think using that rule for warmachines would make a lot of sense. Anyway, repositioning one of the crew during the pivot could prevent a successful charge if it was that crewmember that was going to be the one hit, I think.

(Please, please tell me I've missed something and that the crew is ignored for charge resolution, and that the machine must be hit to be counted as a successful charge. My poor crew have been killed many times due to being a tad too close to the enemy thus denying them the glory of blowing themselves to smithereens for the greater glory of the Empire.)



3) Problems in real play - not really. Most players simply re-position the crew men without a thought. Our club tends to stick to the rules as closely as possible (simply as good practice even though we are very laid back) and players always inform their opponents and take care in re-positioning.
That's great to hear! I read too much online about problems between players. I'd like to hear a few success stories too, just to get some good news now and then.

Thanks again for taking the time to answer my questions!

-=- Steve

DeathlessDraich
05-12-2007, 11:13
First off, thanks for taking my questions in the spirit that I intended - just questions - and not an attempt at anything more serious. With that said... :)

I'm not an authority or the resident expert. This is my opinion, for you to discern or reject, no more. ;). Any opinion voiced in these forums is just as valuable to me in establishing a correct understanding of the rules.



I don't think I was clear - a successful charge to the warmachine means hitting either the machine or one of the crew, right? The war hydra is the only unit I know of that says to ignore the crew (i.e., handlers) for charge resolution. Hmm... I think using that rule for warmachines would make a lot of sense. Anyway, repositioning one of the crew during the pivot could prevent a successful charge if it was that crewmember that was going to be the one hit, I think.

Yes, you are right technically. Re-positioning the crew (in the previous turn's shooting) *could* lengthen the measured charge distance in the next turn.

This interpretation assumes that when the warmachine is charged, the crewmen are moved (as in diag. 84.1) *after* charging distances are measured.
However some players (Atrahasis IIRC) feel that diag. 84.1 and its accompanying rules show that the crewmen are moved *as part of the charge response*. This makes the charge distance effectively shorter.

That was the point I was trying to make.


(Please, please tell me I've missed something and that the crew is ignored for charge resolution, and that the machine must be hit to be counted as a successful charge. My poor crew have been killed many times due to being a tad too close to the enemy thus denying them the glory of blowing themselves to smithereens for the greater glory of the Empire.)

The charge distance is measured from the charger to any part of the warmachine whether crewmen or the machine itself - pg 9.

Greyfire
05-12-2007, 14:55
I'm not an authority or the resident expert. This is my opinion, for you to discern or reject, no more. ;). Any opinion voiced in these forums is just as valuable to me in establishing a correct understanding of the rules.
I'm pretty much of the opinion that no one is an authority anymore, especially Games Workship. But discussions do help me to understand things better so again I thank you (and everone else that puts up with me high-jacking this thread.)


The charge distance is measured from the charger to any part of the warmachine whether crewmen or the machine itself - pg 9.
Dang, I really really wanted to find out there was some errata on this one that I had missed. Guess I'll just have to live with my cannons having a chance of not exploding in a fiery mass of metal and fleshy parts. :p

-=- Steve