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View Full Version : Astartes Players -- how often, TRUTHFULLY, does this happen?



EmperorEternalXIX
03-12-2007, 00:53
I have found one commonality thus far throughout the 2 years I've played 40k. It happens to me every game, no matter which Space Marine variant I've played as.

It wasn't my assault cannons rending apart a land raider. It wasn't my terminators marching invincibly over my enemies. It wasn't my opponent storming off because of how unfair my army was. It wasn't my basic marines marching unstoppably through a hail of fire.

No. None of that.

What happens to me every game is I find myself on the other side of a stunned player when I tell him my units' stats or capabilities. Why are they stunned? Because they are usually shocked at how WEAK my army seems to be, compared to how they have assumed them to be.

I am curious if any other SM players run into this sort of thing, so...here's a few examples.


I hear "Isn't the Librarian/Master/Chaplain strength 5?" a lot. No, he isn't. (I find this is the general theme -- people often visually overestimate my stats).

Using the Master of the Ravenwing landspeeder, a spectator asks me why I haven't fired his weapons. "He's stunned," I reply. "Isn't he immune to stuns?" the kid asks. I tell the kid that according to his profile, he is a normal landspeeder, except he's AV14 on the sides and front. He then asks me how many points he costs. I tell him over 200. He insists that he MUST be immune to stuns for that cost. I give him the DA codex, he looks it up; his eyebrows raise. "...oh. Wow..." he says. He closes the book and hands it back to me just in time for a glancing immobilized hit to destroy the Master of the Ravenwing -- who did not even fire once that game.

"What's the side armor on that predator/vindicator? 12?" No, it's 11. "Are you sure?"

My impressive looking jump pack chaplain leads an assault squad into a squad of chaos marines. My opponent asks me for his stats and is really surprised to find he is Toughness 4. "Are you sure?" he asks. Yeah, I'm sure. He then asks me how many wounds he has. Two, I reply -- it's a Reclusiarch. "What?! Are you sure...?" Yeah, I'm sure. I show him the statline. He then remarks, "well at least he's only 85 points." I then point out, no, actually, the way he's kitted he is 130ish. He then proceeds to insta-kill him with a powerfist. I go to take away the model and he says "I thought he had two wounds?" I say, "Yes. Strength double toughness, though." And then he says to me "You should check to see if he's immune--" I cut him off. No. He's not immune.

"Why aren't you re-rolling your chaplain's attacks? I thought he had that thing where he can re-roll..." It's only on the charge. "Are you sure..."

"They aren't pinned. Don't they have 'And they shall know no fear' ?" Yeah, but they're still pinned. And again -- "Are you sure?"

While adding up VPs, people are regularly surprised by my point costs. "Oh wow" is what I hear when people get higher-than-expected points for a dead venerable dreadnought, or a tooled-up assault squad, etc.


I don't know. Personally I don't complain about these things -- though I'm sure some will take this post as such. But it seems to me that people are constantly underwhelmed by the space marines when I play, and I am constantly being asked if I'm sure about their stats and abilities. 99% of the time I'm positive I'm right but people seem genuinely underwhelmed in almost every game I play.

Normally I wouldn't care but all I ever see is people talking trash about the Astartes and how they are a noob army and they are a load of crap or whatever and they are invincible and the whole game is stupider for them even existing.

None of this really bothers me, I am just ...well, confused.

I was just wondering if any other dedicated SM players have experienced anything similar in their gaming groups.

TheOverlord
03-12-2007, 01:02
I guess that's why the majority of people enjoy the Astartes. The give off that feeling of sheer machismo, that at any time even one of them dies, the universe laments of his heroic and epic death.

I never had this problem though, (even if it is chaos), except maybe when I first started Chaos at 3.5 ed. Ok, it was the other way round though, they'd never seen chaos before and a tooled out Daemon Prince was something of an eye opener. Everyone switched tactics after that though T_T

Rikens
03-12-2007, 01:05
Doesn't happen to me, but then I make sure I only play with people that know the rules.

Raven1
03-12-2007, 01:10
Though, I don't play space marines...well I do Chaos Space marines. I must tell there was several things that I was more afraid of then stuff I had that my opponents were afraid of. (chaos) Space Marines aren't that good.

I think people just like to complain.

The Orange
03-12-2007, 01:24
Not an astartes player, but I know most of that already.

scopedog91
03-12-2007, 01:31
People surprised at how weak Marines are?
What is the thread about, or am i missing the point?
Marines are not invulnerable, lightning-bolt throwing gods of Greek legend.
Just some more fun sci-fi dudes with way-too big guns and...oh, I forgot to recite the mantra of many a player "myarmyisthebestIalwayswin"...
Anyway, to get to the real question here.
No, I have not run across any of the situations listed above here. Sorry for the odd start to the answer here.
I have had many "Oh no another Marine army" gripes however.
Just joined a new Vet group of players, 25 years and up, and I am the only Marine dude there...

Doctor Thunder
03-12-2007, 01:38
I don't run into what the OP describes. However, I do run into a lot of problems mixing up the special rules between the 80 some odd variants of space marines that we are supposted to keep straight in our heads.

BrainFireBob
03-12-2007, 02:07
It happens too often with newer players.

The myth of Marines as having the absolute best of everything equates to the idea that the only marine units are kitted out.

No, these termies don't have assault cannons, thank you.

No, this squad has a flamer and a powerweapon- no fist, no plasma spam, thank you.

Yes, that tank is only armor 13/11/10.

Yes, it's only 11 on the front. It's 11 on the sides, too, which isn't too bad.

Yes, I can fall back from shooting/assault.

One becomes tired of it.

MuttMan
03-12-2007, 02:14
Ive had people tell me constantly that I'm wrong about my units. A few days back someone told me my plague biker lord was immune to instant death of str8 weapons, I had to proceed over to him how all bonuses do not change the base statline and refer to the basic stats for instant death. He didnt get it for the longest time. (assuming he was thinking about 3.5 codex - daemonic stature)

At other times I had a terminator unit kill half of someone army without a single casualty after taking hordes of firepower. After all those armor saves my opponent wanted to switch dice, and things remained the same. For a moment though I was curious if I was using weighted dice? After a few dozen rolls with my terminators using different dice, I just knew it was a fluke.

They killed something like 40 marines and 2 dreadnoughts and one chaplain.

A few weeks ago, there was a kid that told me that my thousand sons sorcerer didnt die to rolling a double 6 on his psychic test, so I showed him the stats. He then blabbed how I was an idiot for picking a 80 point 1 wound model, I then replied to him I have to take him. He told me I didnt have to, and then I showed him that he comes with the unit, and then he told me I was dumb for taking thousand sons. I then showed him what they could do rapid firing against MEQ's, letting him roll the dice of course. He then said they're still dumb because they are so spendy and need to get close. I showed him the cost of a land raider and rhino, then told him I can have a defiler obscure my rhino in deployment. He then told me that it needs too much work, so I replied to him, irritated beyond belief (he was a 13yo). "If this game is too much effort, dont bother playing it".
He shut up and I continued with my other game I had just started, my opponent chuckled and commented about the ordeal through the entire game.

Khaine's Messenger
03-12-2007, 02:17
I am curious if any other SM players run into this sort of thing

I've never run into it when using my Space Marines, no. Oddly, I've run into it more often with my Tau, since the group of local Tau players is pretty hard to top. Mind you, it's not quite the same with the Tau, since they have some very popularized weaknesses....

dagorin
03-12-2007, 02:36
I don't get it very often with my SM. However, I get it a lot with my Dark Eldar.

The two most commonly heard things:
"No way!" - Wyches / wyche lord in close combat.

"Don't forget your armor saves?" - anything being shot. :)

For some reason, everyone where I play seems to think that my army is unstoppable (even those who have beaten me).

EmperorEternalXIX
03-12-2007, 03:17
Well I figure the overpowered stuff garners a reaction. My two separate gaming groups (neither of whom admittedly know the SM terribly well) always seem to be pleasantly surprised by my army when they are expecting things more brutal or comparable to chaos.

I figured I was in the minority but I had to be sure!

Varath- Lord Impaler
03-12-2007, 03:31
Hey EmperorEternal, nice sig ;)

Anyway, when i take my Imperial fists to games usually the first thing people say is "Wow...thats...yellow bright...wow"

or something to that effect.

Later, usually they remark on a few things.

"Your terminators! they dont have lightning claws or powerfists?! This cant be real!"
"They are called Thunder hammers and storm shields, my master has one."
"WHAAAA?!"

***

"HA! Scouts with bolters and the sergeant has a powerfist! what a waste of points!"
*Scouts first shooting phase*
"...Wheres my devastator squad?"
"Mwahaha, i love my bolters."
"Oh my god! Must...charge...lord of doom in too kill scouts"
*powerfist SPLAT*


***

"What is that weapon your dreadnaught has?"
"They are called twin linked lascannons. I use them to blast tanks"
"But rending is so much better look at the maths charts i made up (etc etc)"
*rolls dice, enemy predator explodes*

***

"Where are your assault marines?"
"I dont take assault marines"
"No really, are they deep striking or somthing?"
"No, i dont take assault marines!"
"but...but...are they infiltrating?"
"I DONT TAKE ASSAULT MARINES!"

***

"Do you have a librarian with Power of the ancients?"
"no"
"Veil of time?"
"no"
"Vortex of doom?!"
"no"
"What does he have?"
"I dont have a librarian"
*blink* "...where is he?"
"i dont have one."

***

"dont you know that chaplains are supposed to wear black armour?"
"Yeah, i dont have a chaplain, hense no black armour"
"but..what is your HQ then?"
"A master"
"A what?"
"A master"
"What are they?"
"Leader of marine armies"
"How many attacks does he have?"
"4"
"how many after bonuses?"
"4"
"no really"
"i said 4, its 3+ terminator armour. 4"
"2 Close combat weapons?"
"No, thunder hammer and storm shield"
"Wheres his Iron halo?"
"cant take one"
"Why not?"
"he's wearing terminator armour"
"How is his artificer armour going to fit under that"
"HE DOESNT HAVE ARTIFICER ARMOUR"
"....why not?"


This is the kind of stuff i have to deal with...

EmperorEternalXIX
03-12-2007, 03:54
It's nice to know I'm not COMPLETELY alone out there...heheh.

(Also, re: my sig -- Thanks for the most quotable thing I've read in the last year, heh.)

Green Shoes
03-12-2007, 04:01
I actually get this alot with my Guard, especially when a Leman Russ dies or something similar. People expect some things to be completely absurd, when in reality they are not as unstoppable as the hype machine makes them out to be.

Although, OTOH, I hear alot of "Wow"s whenever my basic CSMs charge and I announce how many attacks I'm making. Raptors? Berserkers? Pffft...

Admiral Samuel Eden
03-12-2007, 04:23
I have never had a problem with my marines and enjoy playing them. They're very effective and tactically flexible in my opinion. There is no problem with marines, they are fine as they are.

Varath- Lord Impaler
03-12-2007, 04:31
noone said we should change marines. We are saying that the Internet has created a Stigma about them which means that people expect them to be more powerful than they are.

Defcon
03-12-2007, 04:36
I admit that I DRASTICALLY overestimate Space Marine weapon skill oftentimes. For some reason, even though I know it's not the case, I keep thinking that Space Marine Commanders really do have a WS of like 6 or 7. Even now I'm -pretty- sure they are a 5, but not completely confident that they don't have a 6, if only because most of my stuff still hits on 3's.

Varath- Lord Impaler
03-12-2007, 04:37
They are 5, chaos lords are 6

Xenocidal Maniac
03-12-2007, 04:41
No. I have never had any of those comments when I run my Dark Angels.

Just lots of wailing and gnashing of teeth.

lords2001
03-12-2007, 04:42
I remember someone being shocked with Necrons. I remember having a character bash late one evening because it was too late to set up a normal game. The Nightbringer and the Deceiver made an appearance on one side, along with two greater daemons, against every phoenix lord and an Avatar. I still remember making my attacks with the Nightbringer.

I said 'Hitting on 4+ (4 hits out of 6), wounding on 2+ (4 wounds), no saves.
My friend said 'Ok, I'm making the invulnerable saves now....' (this is back in 3rd ed, where they got invulnerable saves).
'No, you don't get any saves against the C'Tan.'
'What do you mean? He is a MC, you don't get armor saves, I know, but you get your invulnerable saves' he replied.
'Nope! No saves at all.'
'Let me see that...' he said, as did my other friends, looking at the Necron Codex. After finally finding the rule....
'Damn. Ah, I see. It is like he has a C'Tan phase knife or something' he finally acknowledged.
'He IS a C'Tan phase knife' I replied, to general laughter.

Hicks
03-12-2007, 04:45
That feeling is exagerated a 100 times with Grey Knights. Everyone in my play groups considers them the most ubber unit in the game. As much as I try to explain to them that they aren't all that great they won't change their minds. Everytime they wipe out a squad with AP2 fire they still can't believe that there are no survivors.

I only win about 40% of the time with pure GKs, so I don't see what is so good about them. It might be because they mix up PAGKs and GKTs.

LususNaturae
03-12-2007, 04:49
Actually, my friend used to think this. He plays Chaos. He used to think that Libbys could beat the snot out of anything in combat, including his tooled up (old ed) Daemon Prince.

Then he finally fought one. And his DP cut it in two. He was so confused. I lol'd.

I find that many newer do make these mistakes cuz they hear all the "SM's are crazy" But mostly, they think that the power lies in HQ characters, when the true power of SM's is in their hard-as-nails troops

fwacho
03-12-2007, 05:53
A firend of mine runs a tooled up IG command squad complete with banner bearer, commisar and priest (yes preist) between 2 powerfists and that eviserator I've lost so many models it ain't funny. I have a bad habit of overesitmating my own ravenwing bikes, and am surpised when various things maul them on occasion.

I do confuse the greyknight models frequently and forget which ones have that #%#@ nemisis force weapon. consequently I give them a lot of space.

DEADMARSH
03-12-2007, 07:19
I totally understand where this thread topic is coming from.

As to where all the stigmas or assumptions come from like "SMs are too good, DE are unstoppable in the hands of a good player, Falcons can't be shot down, etc.", I think there are a whole LOT of people who...

A) Have the books and whatnot but don't actually play the game.

B) Parrot back what they've heard everyone else say.

For the record, I've lost more games with my Marines than my Guard, have never even seen a DE army on the table let alone play against it, and have killed a Falcon with a hull mounted lascannon from a Leman Russ. :)

I think a lot of it too comes from folks not knowing the rules on kitting out wargear. I played in an Apocalypse game today with some of the guys in my club and a long time player of 40k who was using 4th ed. Marines for the first time. One of my Guard platoons starts shooting at his Master. "He's on a bike, with an Admantine Mantle, Iron Halo, Terminator Armor, a powerfist, and a storm bolter..."

Say what?

That's one thing I do like about the new style codex books- yeah, there are less options, but it makes the mistakes with wargear and options much harder to make.

The_Outsider
03-12-2007, 07:23
While I haven't had people overestimate marines, i've had the reverse (13th company FTW).

The look on a black templar's face when I got as many attacks in CC as him after being charged by an assault squad was priceless.

starlight
03-12-2007, 07:40
Deadmarsh has it in one. Many people simply repeat what they've heard without checking...

All of this comes from people not actually playing *the rules*.:eek: Nothing wrong with that, just don't expect everyone else to play by your same *not rules*;) as well. I've stood in a GW store and watched players absolutely *butcher* the rules and then get in to arguments over which wrong interpretation they should use:eek:.

ComissarMagoo32587
03-12-2007, 08:13
Playing as Imperial Guard, my lasguns will have little affect playing nurgle. I would have to hit on bs 3 and wound the nurgle marine on a 6. If I do get that then the player will have a feel no pain save. Also, I equipt my guard with plasma which is dangerous to my troops. Further more, I use drop troops and if I don't get the shots off that i need then That player will get in cc with my guys and I wouldn't have a chance. Fighting marines in general is tough but from the games that I have played, Chaos is a very powerful foe.

Rikens
03-12-2007, 08:56
Starlight: I don't think that's just restricted to GW stores...

theshadowduke
03-12-2007, 09:23
I have had several games where people expected my marine HQ to have both str and t 5. Though I have made similiar mistakes with some of the armies I dont play.

My favorite was when the ork player told me I had to test for panic from shooting when the vet sarge was an apothecary.

I <3 W
03-12-2007, 09:41
I was reallt surprised when myh newly bought chaos termies tripped on pebbles and got killed by 5 guardsmen (they had plasma and heavy weapons mind yoou_, but sitting two inches away from the barrels of guns should make your men ge theyre foot unstuck (which shouldnt really be a problem when your armor makes you a tank anyways. Terrain is often quite lame

Lord Damocles
03-12-2007, 09:41
I often have this sort of trouble. My death company seem to cause people particular concern.

'Is that your Death Comany of ultra doom?'
'Yes it is'.
'They don't have jump packs'.
'Thank you, I had noticed this - having made them, painted them, and used them for five years or so'.
'But why don't they have jump packs?'
'They have a Rhino'.
'Everyone knows that all Death Company must have jump packs'.
'Well mine have a Rhino'.
'But...'
'Arghhhh!'

ehlijen
03-12-2007, 09:52
To be fair: the 'other' space marines could do all the things the people in the original post assume and mostly did in the last chaos codex:

S5 and T5 or more on charcaters (all those options chaos had made people forget that for most races the only stat booster are powerfist (or the like)).
Mutated hull and the possesion that made you immune to stunning were very popular.
Spiky bits were so much better than mastercrafting.
Large amounts of fearless units meant that some people didn't have to bother figuring out how leadership worked.
Going from all that to loyalist marines can feel a bit of a letdown.

Hopefully this will all die down a bit now.

srg.cutter
03-12-2007, 10:08
according to all the backround and fluff books the space marines are all mighty fearless and realy realy strong. but in practice so many people have space marine armies that it would simply alienate other armies if they were as strong as they should be

Kulgur
03-12-2007, 10:29
Some of this stat confusion might come from 2nd Edition when you did have WS7 lords and T5 characters

DEADMARSH
03-12-2007, 10:49
Some of this stat confusion might come from 2nd Edition when you did have WS7 lords and T5 characters

That's completely true.

While I'm sure there are tons of veterans out there that are totally fine with the 4th ed. rules, I find a surprising amount of folks who have been playing since the early 90's that get all conflustered when I try to move a Russ and then shoot it's battle cannon. And directly drop the ord template and roll a scatter die instead of guessing. And roll four dice when I shoot an assault cannon. And don't get all scared when they score a glance on my Hellhound. Or move my Hellhound forward then fire the inferno cannon forward... :)

Of course, the punchline is I've only ever played under 4th ed., so when my opponent busts out something like the glancing= penetrating on Hellhounds rule, I'm all, "Are you on crack?"

Stella Cadente
03-12-2007, 11:04
I was just wondering if any other dedicated SM players have experienced anything similar in their gaming groups.
I wouldn't say dedicated, but yes, it has happened many many times, against veteran players, against noob players, even against a staffer once.
the worst times is when they do these types of things, and at the same time ALSO play marines.
another REALLY annoying one is when you play them once, they ask all the questions, then you play them again at some point, and ask THE SAME ******* QUESTIONS!!!!, and they do it again, and again, and again

Mahwell Skel
03-12-2007, 11:07
I totally understand where this thread topic is coming from.

As to where all the stigmas or assumptions come from like "SMs are too good, DE are unstoppable in the hands of a good player, Falcons can't be shot down, etc.", I think there are a whole LOT of people who...

A) Have the books and whatnot but don't actually play the game.

B) Parrot back what they've heard everyone else say.



Quite true.

Imagine the first thread and the SM player replies "oh yeah!" to each question. From that point on it becomes cannon to those players despite what the rules may say and influences all thier games from then on. "Remember that time your chaplin pwned my army on his own!" " He is special and can never be deaded!"

darknar
03-12-2007, 12:10
hmm. dont say i have come acrose this much agaexcept for 2 times and one complete opposite

i do however have the cheesy chaplin of death
just like any normal chaplin (with thunderhammer)he can take on whole armys and titans alone.
only when ever he comes acrose something small and midgity he dies.

however people are always suprised when i take 40 marines in a 1500 point game. i think its becuse they are used to seeing lots of small specilised units and not these cheap overly large super units

then the whole HQ techmarine Iron father. people think that they are invincible yes they may have 7 attacks on the charge and have 3 wounds but thtas about all they have going for them. admitidly mine has gone through units of death company but in the end one stray vindicator cannon will take him out.

noting is as strong or as week as people think them out to be

i just like the look of peoples faces when i take 40 marines and start marching towards them. alongside 3 vindicators

Captain Micha
03-12-2007, 12:41
People do that sort of thing against my Necrons all the time. Even here on warseer.

Lack of army education is appalling in 40k.

Ianos
03-12-2007, 13:13
I get that all the time with Eldar, according to most of my opponents:

banshees must have ws6 str4 and cannot be beaten by anything in assault
guardians can walk in the middle and take some damage and survive
fire dragons can unload and survive a round of shooting
the Autarch is like an Archon
Pulse lasers are lance
scatter lasers ap2
wave serpents have holo-fields
all Eldar vehicles can move 24" and fire
falcons cannot be damaged whatsoever and they will always keep firing all their guns which have 48" range and ap2
Even if falcons ever get shot down, i wouldn't care cause all my troops have t4 3+ save and are almost fearless and have guns of at least 24" range.

Come to think of it sometimes it is only natural to hear all those cheese cries when people have such misconceptions about armies. Everyone has a fuzzy image of marine stats in their minds and then adds up the special rules and sees only cheese. Like the Necrons for example who despite their toughness they severely suffer in Initiative and have other serious flaws that people don't seem to exploit and would rather use the same old tactics. Same with Eldar, marine variants and all armies.

@EmperorEternalXIX: Regarding your assault cannon sig, have you counted in the damage that the As.Cannon has done in all those games, It may not have destroyed 100 vehicles but it may have destroyed 100 armaments. And i am not one of those As.Cannon=Cheese guys but isn't ridiculous for a gun costing less points than any other option to be better than all other options even in their specialized fields of action? Sorry for the OT....

Galatan
03-12-2007, 14:12
I've had plenty of underestimations with my guard when I still played at the GW.

'what do you play?'
'Guard infantry company...'
'what no tanks?
'didn't have the time to paint one yet'
'lol do you like to lose?'
*he deploys his orcs*
*I deploy my maxed out guard platoons with heavy bolters and lascannons and wipes him from the table*

Sure tanks are good, but massed infatry works as well sometimes in non-tournament enviroments:p.

As for SM I've often had people think a pred had side AV 12 or something, but that is something I can understand....Since I think a pred SHOULD have side AV 12.

I also had people being suprised that I would use a master instead of a chaplain:
'why are you using a master? he sucks'
'eeeuhm I don't know, but for his pts I get a decent fighting character and he gives my whole army Ld 10...w and he is a lot cheaper'
'ow really....I didnt know that'
*Then I rub my eyes mumbling something about doing research before making an opinion*

I've also had plenty of times people being surprised that I rather wanted terminators in stead of assault marines:
'yo man assault marines own in combat with a chaplain'
'nah I rather have termies'
'why? they are expensive and always strike last'
'ya sure, but I've got a 2+ save so I will survive most CC attacks and when I charge with a chaplain I get the same amount of attacks per model and I now can wound my opponant on a 2+ and not a 4+.....Ow and insta killing most of the characters is also something good'
'ow..ya you're kinda right I guess'

madden
03-12-2007, 16:39
Space marines no, chaos possesed yes i keep thinking that they have init 5 and ws 5 but they are the same as normal troops bar toughness and strength.

EmperorEternalXIX
03-12-2007, 16:45
@EmperorEternalXIX: Regarding your assault cannon sig, have you counted in the damage that the As.Cannon has done in all those games, It may not have destroyed 100 vehicles but it may have destroyed 100 armaments. And i am not one of those As.Cannon=Cheese guys but isn't ridiculous for a gun costing less points than any other option to be better than all other options even in their specialized fields of action? Sorry for the OT.... See, this is what I mean, the stigma.

First, it doesn't cost less points than any other optiononly for dreadnoughts. It actually makes speeders pretty expensive, ESPECIALLY in the DA codex. On a dreadnought, it's free but that is one gun walking 6" a turn on AV12, if people can't kill that before it does any damage it's not because of the assault cannon that they have problems. Same deal with the terminators (except terminators can actually be hard to kill...sometimes). It is only better on paper. As my sig demos, it is not as valuable as its stigma has made it out to be. Then again I don't do illogical things like waste anti-troop fire on tanks, either. I much prefer my dread to tear it open with his bare clamp, heh.

Come to think of it my dread gets an underwhelming response. "How many attacks does that thing have? 4? 5?" No, 2...

"Are you sure?"

The Song of Spears
03-12-2007, 16:49
I totally understand where this thread topic is coming from.

As to where all the stigmas or assumptions come from like "SMs are too good, DE are unstoppable in the hands of a good player, Falcons can't be shot down, etc.", I think there are a whole LOT of people who...

A) Have the books and whatnot but don't actually play the game.

B) Parrot back what they've heard everyone else say.

For the record, I've lost more games with my Marines than my Guard, have never even seen a DE army on the table let alone play against it, and have killed a Falcon with a hull mounted lascannon from a Leman Russ. :)

I think a lot of it too comes from folks not knowing the rules on kitting out wargear. I played in an Apocalypse game today with some of the guys in my club and a long time player of 40k who was using 4th ed. Marines for the first time. One of my Guard platoons starts shooting at his Master. "He's on a bike, with an Admantine Mantle, Iron Halo, Terminator Armor, a powerfist, and a storm bolter..."

Say what?

That's one thing I do like about the new style codex books- yeah, there are less options, but it makes the mistakes with wargear and options much harder to make.

One of the great truth-sayers of our time ;)

I can't count how many times people have gotten my falcons and wave serpents mixed up. They look at me after a single las cannon shot shoots down my waveserpent full of 10 avengers and say, "don't i roll two dice and take the lowest? .."nope, thats just falcons" after the third las cannon shot shoots down the third 130 point waveserpent, they are like, wow eldar are fragile, good thing you have at least one take left on the field(the stunned & empty falcon)..."

All i want if for people to play as the army they hate so much for a few months, then they will see all the hardships any given player has to overcome with any codex.

Leunam
03-12-2007, 16:53
I think for all the ferocity of Rending, people seem to forget Assault Cannons only have a 24" range.

yaspro
03-12-2007, 16:58
i never played anyone who hasn't known about the SM rules. I think you should try choosing right people to play who actually CAN play the game. Dont waste ur time on kids who's world only rotates around their own army.

Emperor's Avenger
03-12-2007, 17:46
Every other game when my Master fires a storm bolter, it goes something like this.

"What? That was a 2! 2s miss!"
"He's a master. He has BS 5, not 4."
"Let me check that."

Show them codex.
"Oh."

Visionary
03-12-2007, 17:50
I think for all the ferocity of Rending, people seem to forget Assault Cannons only have a 24" range.

Yea, i had a custom made tank (VDR) i explained it had 10 AV all round, BS 3 (traitors) and a short ranged assault cannon. As soon as they heard about the gun their hammerhead shot at it destroying it of course. This was a 12" Assault cannon that could've been taken out by a lone drone...

It seems that the words 'Assault' and 'Cannon' bring up images of power equal to a monilith

yaspro
03-12-2007, 17:51
in some ways SM are really good in others they could do better.

gantrakk
03-12-2007, 18:20
One problem may be that alot of people only have their own codex since there are so god damn many of them so may have only read the Space Marine codex once or twice ever and get the rules confused with elements of CSM and the ten thousend Space Marine vairiants.

Leunam
03-12-2007, 18:24
One problem may be that alot of people only have their own codex since there are so god damn many of them so may have only read the Space Marine codex once or twice ever and get the rules confused with elements of CSM and the ten thousend Space Marine vairiants.

Confused with Chaos Marines I can understand, but not with other Marines as they are are practically the same stat-wise and armoury wise. A Dark Angels assault marine has the same stats as a Salamanders Devastator.

Infallius_Daemonium
03-12-2007, 18:35
Never really happend to me. . . and now it cannot, for I play Blood Angels.

(If anyone didn't get that, Blood Angels have the new and improved Mephiston, who is now truly, the Lord of Death.)

AngryAngel
03-12-2007, 20:13
People who play against my DA.. Respect me..and my abilities,not the marine units themselves. Like any army their power is in the skill of the player using them. I don't and never did buy into the marines beat all mindset. They don't..and never will. People who constantly bitch about them..are ones who will gladly bitch about anything.

Yeah people assume my units are much better always..that they all have fearless..or can gain some kind of ability. Which with DA they don't really. But then the chaos player always is sure to chime in "Hey your troops are cheap and expendable.." Which rather angers me to no end.

LoneSniperSG
03-12-2007, 20:54
I have found one commonality thus far throughout the 2 years I've played 40k. It happens to me every game, no matter which Space Marine variant I've played as.

It wasn't my assault cannons rending apart a land raider. It wasn't my terminators marching invincibly over my enemies. It wasn't my opponent storming off because of how unfair my army was. It wasn't my basic marines marching unstoppably through a hail of fire.

No. None of that.

What happens to me every game is I find myself on the other side of a stunned player when I tell him my units' stats or capabilities. Why are they stunned? Because they are usually shocked at how WEAK my army seems to be, compared to how they have assumed them to be.

I am curious if any other SM players run into this sort of thing, so...here's a few examples.


I hear "Isn't the Librarian/Master/Chaplain strength 5?" a lot. No, he isn't. (I find this is the general theme -- people often visually overestimate my stats).

Using the Master of the Ravenwing landspeeder, a spectator asks me why I haven't fired his weapons. "He's stunned," I reply. "Isn't he immune to stuns?" the kid asks. I tell the kid that according to his profile, he is a normal landspeeder, except he's AV14 on the sides and front. He then asks me how many points he costs. I tell him over 200. He insists that he MUST be immune to stuns for that cost. I give him the DA codex, he looks it up; his eyebrows raise. "...oh. Wow..." he says. He closes the book and hands it back to me just in time for a glancing immobilized hit to destroy the Master of the Ravenwing -- who did not even fire once that game.

"What's the side armor on that predator/vindicator? 12?" No, it's 11. "Are you sure?"

My impressive looking jump pack chaplain leads an assault squad into a squad of chaos marines. My opponent asks me for his stats and is really surprised to find he is Toughness 4. "Are you sure?" he asks. Yeah, I'm sure. He then asks me how many wounds he has. Two, I reply -- it's a Reclusiarch. "What?! Are you sure...?" Yeah, I'm sure. I show him the statline. He then remarks, "well at least he's only 85 points." I then point out, no, actually, the way he's kitted he is 130ish. He then proceeds to insta-kill him with a powerfist. I go to take away the model and he says "I thought he had two wounds?" I say, "Yes. Strength double toughness, though." And then he says to me "You should check to see if he's immune--" I cut him off. No. He's not immune.

"Why aren't you re-rolling your chaplain's attacks? I thought he had that thing where he can re-roll..." It's only on the charge. "Are you sure..."

"They aren't pinned. Don't they have 'And they shall know no fear' ?" Yeah, but they're still pinned. And again -- "Are you sure?"

While adding up VPs, people are regularly surprised by my point costs. "Oh wow" is what I hear when people get higher-than-expected points for a dead venerable dreadnought, or a tooled-up assault squad, etc.


I don't know. Personally I don't complain about these things -- though I'm sure some will take this post as such. But it seems to me that people are constantly underwhelmed by the space marines when I play, and I am constantly being asked if I'm sure about their stats and abilities. 99% of the time I'm positive I'm right but people seem genuinely underwhelmed in almost every game I play.

Normally I wouldn't care but all I ever see is people talking trash about the Astartes and how they are a noob army and they are a load of crap or whatever and they are invincible and the whole game is stupider for them even existing.

None of this really bothers me, I am just ...well, confused.

I was just wondering if any other dedicated SM players have experienced anything similar in their gaming groups.

To blatantly quote your entire post, I believe what you describe is the end result of the fluff. Marines are supposed to be UBER-PWNAGE-OMG-NEVER-LOSE forces, in the fluff. They do lose, i'll admit. Its impossible to -always- win, unless you're so far advanced that you can warp the universe into a giant hammer to smash your enemy. Rare is such a thing. Necrons and Chaos bite the dust frequently. Eldar had their skinny arses handed to them when their fanatics had a mass orgy and had so much pleasure that they caved in space. Orks for sure get canned now and then. Sororitas get smashed, Inquisitors are thwarted and the Imperial Guard falters. Something about Space Marines just -feels- invincible. Either in Fluff or actual gameplay, they just have this look of "prepare to die a thousand deaths".

If you don't believe me, do the following:

Get a Land Raider (standard pattern)

Get an Ork Battlewagon.

Compare the two. Banish all statistics from your mind and just look. think which looks the "smashiest".

Try the same with a Predator and a Leman Russ. Think which -looks- smashier.

Now consider, if you saw a priest holding a big golden mace and a bible, would he not kind of scare you? Put him in black armor and a skull helmet and then see what you think.

superknijn
03-12-2007, 21:03
My brother and I are primarily Guard players. He is almost manic about squad costs even approaching 150 points, as, according to him, 'That's the cost of a Space Marine Squad!'. I looked into that, and reported to him that that was only before any upgrades, and that most Space Marine squads cost more than 200 points. He didn't believe me at first.

It's not his fault; for the cost of a single Space Marine squad, you can have a rather outkitted minimum-sized Imperial Guard Platoon.

bdo
03-12-2007, 21:08
"my ratlings will shoot at your assault marines then"
rolls dice
"oh too bad that they canīt be pinned, but i killed two of them"
"no, they are pinned"
"really?"
"yepp, pinned"
"arenīt they immune due to your commander"
"no, thatīs a chaplain - heīs more the close combat one and only the squad he is attached to gets bonuses"
"are you really sure they failed their roll with a 10? come on, i mean they are space marines"
"pinned"
"but..."
"pinned!"
"hey, are you kidd.."
"goddamn, how hard is it to understand?! they are pinned, simply as that, no immunites or stuff that could help them to be not pinned"
"ah okay"
"can we get on now?"
"yeah, sure.... but you should reread, i think there was something with marines and pinni.."
*sigh*

....happened in my last game

Grazzy
03-12-2007, 21:18
I find this with my tanks. My opponents can't believe that my dread is only front armour 12 or my vindicators are side armour 11.

Leunam
03-12-2007, 21:31
"my ratlings will shoot at your assault marines then"
rolls dice
"oh too bad that they canīt be pinned, but i killed two of them"
"no, they are pinned"
"really?"
"yepp, pinned"
"arenīt they immune due to your commander"
"no, thatīs a chaplain - heīs more the close combat one and only the squad he is attached to gets bonuses"
"are you really sure they failed their roll with a 10? come on, i mean they are space marines"
"pinned"
"but..."
"pinned!"
"hey, are you kidd.."
"goddamn, how hard is it to understand?! they are pinned, simply as that, no immunites or stuff that could help them to be not pinned"
"ah okay"
"can we get on now?"
"yeah, sure.... but you should reread, i think there was something with marines and pinni.."
*sigh*

....happened in my last game

Except they aren't pinned because you have to roll your leadership test. :I

Stella Cadente
03-12-2007, 22:01
just remembered one

the Last game I played against a MARINE player with 3 DREADNOUGHTS kept asking me
him: "whats the side armour on your dreadnought?"
me: "its 12 on the side"
him: "are you sure its 12?, I thought it was 10?"
me: "no its 12.....just like all 3 of yours"
him: "yeah I know MINE are armour 12, but are you sure YOURS are armour 12?"
me: "YES" *Passes rulebook* "see?"
him: ...."weird, I thought only mine were 12"

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD

the same thing THE NEXT TURN!!!!, and even with the Predator, and he had 2 of them.....WHY, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD WHY

rintinglen
03-12-2007, 22:23
No. I have never had any of those comments when I run my Dark Angels.

Just lots of wailing and gnashing of teeth.
It ain't easy being green. Too bad about the wailing though, I hope your opponents aren't troubled by it too much. :D

bdo
03-12-2007, 22:27
Except they aren't pinned because you have to roll your leadership test. :I


this was all included in "rolls dice" although i should have written "lots of dice rolling" - next time i make it more specific.

i would have a BIG problem if things would just automatically pin my units, but i usually roll my pinning tests :) :skull:

blackroyal
03-12-2007, 22:42
him: "are you sure its 12?, I thought it was 10?"
me: "no its 12.....just like all 3 of yours"

This folows the "anything you can do, I can do better" rule.

Xenocidal Maniac
03-12-2007, 22:56
It ain't easy being green. Too bad about the wailing though, I hope your opponents aren't troubled by it too much. :D

Har-dee-har-har :D

To clarify, it is my opponents who do the wailing and gnashing of teeth.

My DA army didn't get changed at all by the new DA dex. Same as they ever were. I always ran 10 man squads. I kinda miss Intractible, but that's about it.

I find that people get really frustrated when they fight my DA. And I really am not trying to say "omg i am teh ubber pwnzor of all teh greatest genarals of histary", but I honestly have put my DA in semi-retirement because it's too easy.

Varath- Lord Impaler
03-12-2007, 23:11
I find that people get really frustrated when they fight my DA. And I really am not trying to say "OMG i am teh ubber pwnzor of all teh greatest genarals of histary", but I honestly have put my DA in semi-retirement because it's too easy.

Did the same with my Khorne army and Imperial fists.

next up, Death Korps :D

Feor
03-12-2007, 23:23
You think it's bad with Marines? Try a Grey Knight army.

"Ok, so you go first." "No, we go at the same time." "No, Knights are Initiative 5." "No, they're not."

"Toughness 5 right?" "Nope, 4. They're marines with Fancy swords, just roll your twos and be done with it!"

Chaplain Ark
03-12-2007, 23:30
i think the main reason why people complain about SM is there are "Good" at everything. they are not great. we all knew that when we joined in the SM armies. they are good at everything. they are not combat oriented or shooty oriented. they are the truly balanced army in 40k. yet people believe the marines should kill all they fight in close combat and rape everything at range because of the hype they get.

To make myself clear i leave you with this conclusion:

The Space Marines are Balanced, Mediocre if you will.

Shadow-BOT
03-12-2007, 23:51
Meh, I never was scared of Marines... I laugh at assault marines, I have never had an assault marine squad get their attacks back after I charged them with my wyches, and I've never had my Archite get killed from a PF.

I play ravenwing too, and people DRASTICLY overestimate my army.

What do you mean you only have 15 models?!

Data007
04-12-2007, 00:08
I must be lucky locally, as most people know each other rules at least moderately so. There only are issues trying to recall which Chaos units 'aren't' fearless. Haven't met a player of Chaos, Eldar, or Necrons here though that hasn't played with some of the dirtier toys.

Misanthrope
04-12-2007, 00:18
Well, I've experienced the reverse, when I used to play Chaos. Instances such as fielding a Bloodthirster, a Berzerker Lord w/ 8 S7 attacks on the charge (at I5), and a Berzerker Lieutenant with an 18-24" charge range and 6 rending attacks on the charge in a game would drop a lot of jaws. Also, one game an unfortunate fellow suffered a first-turn charge by my Korny Dreadnought which managed an 18" charge after going into rage mode. Still lost that game though.. :( stupid Tau...