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taphos
03-12-2007, 19:51
I want to first say this is not and should not be a discussion about the rumors circulating about Necrons receiving FNP to replace WBB. What I do want to have you guys jam on is a small correlation I have come across.

In the Apocalypse book, Necron section, it speaks of different "status" Lords. I don't actually own the book, so I'm hoping most of you do or have at least read what I'm talking about. It speaks of the whole organization of the Tomb Complexes when awakened, and the different Lords; Platinum, Gold and Silver (to my best memory).

To save myself from going into "Wouldn't it be cool if...", I want to know what you guys think of how the new Lord (w/ Res Orb) model is more bulkier and powerful looking then the Warscythe lord and the LE SoL lord from the LE boxed set. Is this a foreshadow of things to come? Possible Lizardman Slaan-esque generation builds for Lords? Let me know what you think.

The Laughing God
03-12-2007, 20:53
Maybe different types of wargear for different types of Lords.

t-tauri
03-12-2007, 21:24
Please don't start wishlist threads in News and Rumours. Moved to 40k General.

Visionary
03-12-2007, 21:41
Could be gold= lord, silver= destroyer, plat' = wraith (hopefully :angel:)

The Guy
03-12-2007, 21:47
Could be gold= lord, silver= destroyer, plat' = wraith (hopefully :angel:)

Wraith-lords? :p
I can hear the eldar fanbois weeping as we speak.

Necronlord3
03-12-2007, 23:11
Wraith-lords? :p
I can hear the eldar fanbois weeping as we speak.
The Harlequins are based on Necrons so why not the Wraithlord? They are both soul infused machines.(the Necronlord and the Wraithlord I mean)

Varath- Lord Impaler
03-12-2007, 23:16
The Harlequins are based on Necrons so why not the Wraithlord?

um....

what?

Gazak Blacktoof
03-12-2007, 23:29
It speaks of the whole organization of the Tomb Complexes when awakened, and the different Lords; Platinum, Gold and Silver (to my best memory).

I've also heard this. The first time I heard it I actually laughed.:p Given that I've not read the relevant material in the apoc book I think its probably the cheesiest/worst naming system they could have come up with.

I've got my own system for differentiating levels within our home brew 40K necron list.


As to the differences I'd guess that they are effectively equivalent to ranks for other sides i.e. I doubt they are tied to particular body types. This might include slightly bulkier and more slender types of lord but to enable them to fit onto another chasis they couldn't be too dissimilar without looking really odd, this problem is obviously moot if certain types of lord can't pick the destroyer body (etc ?- there might be more next edition) as a wargear item (see below).

Different lords within the hierarchy might have different stats or availability of amounts or types of wargear.

Vesica
04-12-2007, 00:16
Do you mean have them with different stats? like have one with something like a sm masters stats, one with a chappy style stats and the last with libby stats?

Misanthrope
04-12-2007, 00:24
Probably, varied points costs and points limits for equipment. Necrons are one list I really hope get a bit of a boost. Not that they're weak, but they have a really low number of different types of units; many are simply "stronger" re-hashes of regular units (ie Destroyer and Heavy Destroyer; Warrior and Immortal; Scarab and Spyder; Flayed Ones and Pariahs).. quite the boring list, but cool background and atmosphere about them. It'd take some imagination but they could come up with some cool units.

taphos
04-12-2007, 03:57
Do you mean have them with different stats? like have one with something like a sm masters stats, one with a chappy style stats and the last with libby stats?

Not exactly.. more like keeping the base stats for the lord, but with each level up he would get access to better equipment and possible some stat modifications do to this.. like how a lord can choose a destroyer body, but on a slightly larger level.

Gazak Blacktoof
04-12-2007, 07:49
Do you mean have them with different stats? like have one with something like a sm masters stats, one with a chappy style stats and the last with libby stats?

They might do but I'd expect its access to different amounts of wargear. I think the added bulk of the new lord model is simply down to the sculptor in question rather than any specific intent on the part of the design studio- though I could obviously be wrong. GW usually make sure there are significant differences between model types, though this is not always the case with characters.

Within the system I made I created a new character type and then allowed each character type to be split into a higher and lower rank by adding a wargear item to get the more important character type.

Kulgur
04-12-2007, 08:39
It's in the fluff section for Necrons in the Apoc rulebook, if all fluff became models we'd be waiting on a Tyranid consumption swarm too....

Gorbad Ironclaw
04-12-2007, 09:13
The Harlequins are based on Necrons


What are you on about? That makes no sense what so ever.

logosloki
04-12-2007, 14:16
I thought it would be

silver=wraith--lord
gold= lord
platinum= destroyer lord

Captain Micha
04-12-2007, 14:30
no, destroyer body isn't as awesome as a foot lord with the veil.

Also if Dawn of war is any indication destroyer lords are "lesser"

pookie
04-12-2007, 14:45
the new lord imo is just the first of a new slightly larger rang of crons, but i dont think it is a new 'type' of lord.

in the apoc book doesnt it say that the idea of Gold/silver/bronze (iirc) is just that, a Idea, with no real proof on the command structure? a Lord being but one piece of a much larger jigsaw?

taphos
04-12-2007, 14:51
It's in the fluff section for Necrons in the Apoc rulebook, if all fluff became models we'd be waiting on a Tyranid consumption swarm too....

Isn't that what a Malanthrope from Forgeworld is suppose to represent?

Back on topic. I guess it was a fool hearty assumption on my part, but still one I'll keep thinking on until the day the Necrons do receive some form of upgrade/update.

Vesica
04-12-2007, 15:46
What about different Lords for different C'tan? or something like that, would be cooler if the brought out a 3rd c'tan aswell.

Necronlord3
04-12-2007, 15:54
um....

what?



What are you on about? That makes no sense what so ever.

The entire "dance" the Harlequins put on represents the war between the Old Ones and the C'tan. The Laughing God is the Deceiver.

Troop Masters represent the Deceiver.
Many basic Harlequins are sculpted as both the Nightbringer and the Deceiver.
The Death Jester is clearly representing a Necron.

Etc...

Captain Micha
04-12-2007, 15:59
No, the laughing god is a different entity entirely. The Deceiver is the Jackal God.

pookie
04-12-2007, 16:03
The entire "dance" the Harlequins put on represents the war between the Old Ones and the C'tan. The Laughing God is the Deceiver.

Troop Masters represent the Deceiver.
Many basic Harlequins are sculpted as both the Nightbringer and the Deceiver.
The Death Jester is clearly representing a Necron.

Etc...

your miss interprited the dance, its all about the laughing god and his eldar followers.

Necronlord3
04-12-2007, 16:03
No, the laughing god is a different entity entirely. The Deceiver is the Jackal God.

Right, and the Bloody Handed god isn't Khorne either he's Khaine. God is known by many names.

Captain Micha
04-12-2007, 16:04
Khaine and Khorne are not the same either. *shakes head*please go read the fluff before posting this kind of stuff.

Necronlord3
04-12-2007, 16:06
your miss interprited the dance, its all about the laughing god and his eldar followers.

No I didn't. This is a clearly interpreted take on the dance of the Harlequins. Generally excepted by all but the Eldar players who are in denial about the Necrons being introduced to 40k and who also don't want to accept that Khaine is Khorne.

Captain Micha
04-12-2007, 16:09
And where do you get your supposed evidence that Khaine and Khorne are the same god? What they both begin with K?

The Eldar gods existed during the war in heaven. The chaos gods were created as the war drew to a close. It's not a matter of denial. I am a Necron player.

The nightbringer is known as Kaelis Ra so by your logic he's khorne too if you don't have anything more substantial than "They both start with K"

It even says it in the Necron codex that the deceiver is not the laughing god. (because the two are inferred to have met at one point or another)

The older warp entities did not begin to exist until the war in heaven became more dramatic. I need an Eldar player (a really old school one right now) but I think I recall seeing something somewhere about the Eldar dieties not being warp entities like the chaos gods are. They are dieties in the same way the Emperor is.

Urza
04-12-2007, 16:09
No I didn't. This is a clearly interpreted take on the dance of the Harlequins. Generally excepted by all but the Eldar players who are in denial about the Necrons being introduced to 40k and who also don't want to accept that Khaine is Khorne.

Um, yes. You did. The Laughing God and the Deceiver are two entirely different entities. As are Khaine and Khorne.

Have you actually read any Eldar fluff at all, or do you just go around making stuff up and declaring it as gospel truth?? :wtf:

Urza
04-12-2007, 16:11
The nightbringer is known as Kaelis Ra so by your logic he's khorne too if you don't have anything more substantial than "They both start with K"

Well, Khorne and Khaine actually both start with a 'KH', so maybe he's given this more serious thought than we had realised :D:angel:

Necronlord3
04-12-2007, 16:25
"When read alongside Games Workshop Website - Dawn of the C'tan, The Death of Light this offers the possibility that the Eldar Harlequin Laughing God is in fact The Deciever in another form"

http://uk.games-workshop.com/necrons/eldar-mythology/2/

Khaine isn't Khorne?
Avatars are Daemons, Head dresses are similar to Khorne Worshipper's, both gods of war...

You guys can argue against this and that is the beauty of the 40k universe. It is designed to be taken from anyone's point of view. If you play Chaos, the Emperor is the bad guy, if you play Space Marines the Chaos Gods are evil, etc...

Thus the storyline leaves room for any kind of battle to be played, any reason for one race to fight another or themselves, and millions of open doors for future storylines.

Captain Micha
04-12-2007, 16:35
The Yngir stopped its slow dance, its unseeing gaze fixed on this intruder to its celestial feast. By posture alone the figure radiated pure contempt. It started to drift toward the Laughing God, silvered arms outstretched. Closer it came, and every one of the audience held their breath, willing the Great Harlequin to flee, to attack, to do something.

aughter rang out once more around the dome, and when I looked again the fallen figure on the floor of the amphitheatre was one of the bandage-swathed Death Jesters. Another of the Yngir-things in the dome burst into multicoloured light, revealing itself to be the Laughing God.

That's actually a tale of the Laughing god tricking the outsider. Making it believe he was eating the laughing god each time. Not "he's the deceiver".

You just read it wrong.. completely.
Tzeencth also shares many traits with the Jackal and Laughing gods.. so he must be them too!

The Eldar gods were something to be defeated. Given their massive amount of energy that they would possess it would only be logical for them to be a food source of a sorts for a c'tan.

As for Khaine and Khorne's similarities they also differ in their mindsets. Khaine gets angry from to time and slaughters things recklessly yes. but he's not described as a mindless berko that only cares about blood flowing.

Khorne wasn't shattered into itsy bitsy peices from Slaaneshes birth Khaine was. The process that goes into creating an avatar is quite abit different than a simple summoning ritual. More or less think of a melee version of Eldrad and there you go. That's what an Avatar of Khaine is. A psychic channeling of the remnants of that entity. As for their headdresses not really. They don't even remotely resemble one another. Actually more or less you could describe all of the Eldar gods that way. They are the Eldar's collective will manifest in some way shape or form. Which is also more or less what the Emperor is. Humans just haven't quite gotten far enough yet to need to do away with his corpse.

Also the Deceiver didn't get -all- of the Talismans of Vaul (blackstone fortresses if you are wondering)

The Jackal god and the laughing god are described as always being at odds with one another as well.

AdmiralDick
04-12-2007, 17:09
while i can certainly see where Necronlord3 is coming from, Khorne and Khaine are primarily the same character, they have, as background has developed, become very different in detail. nevertheless, the Harlequins' performances are based around Eldar mythology, particularly that which concerns their relationship to the Chaos including the Fall and the birth of Slaanesh. obviously that would have to include a certain amount of overlap with the battles between the proto-eldar and the proto-necrons, but it could not be said to be the primary infulence. the Harlequins are primarily an 'inquisition' or FBI type force amoungst the Eldar to educated them against the dangers of Chaos and to root out its influence where ever they find it.

nevertheless, it is an interesting concept you bring up, and not one deserving of the high emotion that has been shown. as if the mythology of any of the 40k races is well formulated. however, i suspect that the similarities between deities is due to poor forward planning on the designers part more than anything else. the same archetypes seem to keep popping up with only the most minute differences. if they were genuinely designed to be the same beings then that would cast doubt on the who thing. are the Necrons and Eldar one in the same thing? is so, why do they fight? why do they Eldar Gods abandon them for the more modern form of the Chaos Gods? or were the Chaos Gods always the same and the Eldar just like to put a spin on it? in which case the Eldar and Necrons are in no way connected. oh dear, my brain hurts.

ANYWAY, actually on topic, i doubt seriously that this is a sign that there will be any greater or lesser Necron Lords in the next Codex. the current desing trend is to do away with scales of characters and instead to have one of each archetype. (Avatar/Farseer/Autarch or Daemon Prince/Chaos Lord/Chaos Scourcerer or that set up that DA have). its perfectly possible that there will be multiple HQ choices, but i wouldn't expect them to be gradients of oneanother. they will likely just have different functions and different options.

Visionary
04-12-2007, 19:03
Hmm a small flux of off-topic methinks. Just to say i got the wraith rumour from GW boards how many thousand years ago they were on (even the Old Ones treat them as myth).

MadDogMike
04-12-2007, 19:35
It's in the fluff section for Necrons in the Apoc rulebook, if all fluff became models we'd be waiting on a Tyranid consumption swarm too....

Uh, Malanthrope(s) + rippers covers that pretty much; I have a friend who plays that army in fact and it is scary in its nastiness. Those plus lots of Zoanthropes and psychic Hive Tyrants for Catalyst = bad times when tons of rippers are hitting your lines.

FigureFour
04-12-2007, 20:21
As for Khaine and Khorne's similarities they also differ in their mindsets. Khaine gets angry from to time and slaughters things recklessly yes. but he's not described as a mindless berko that only cares about blood flowing.

Ummm . . . Khorne wasn't always a mindless berko (did you make that word up?) that only cares about blood flowing. He's gotten more bloodthirsty lately.

One might say he gets angry from time to time and slaughters things recklessly.


The process that goes into creating an avatar is quite abit different than a simple summoning ritual. More or less think of a melee version of Eldrad and there you go. That's what an Avatar of Khaine is. A psychic channeling of the remnants of that entity.

Sort of like when a grater demon posesses a host.

Sorry about that, I just have to play devil's advocate here. Personally I don't think there's any hard evidence either way.

Sekhmet
04-12-2007, 21:03
Well technically, both the laughing god (cegorach or something) and the jackal god (deceiver) can both shape shift and are masters of trickery. I'm almost 100% sure that at some point both had played the part of the other. But they are NOT the same thing. One is an Eldar god that's quite obviously a warp entity (saving Eldar souls from Slaanesh) while the other is a C'tan, something that's (almost by definition) not warp-based at all.

stonehorse
04-12-2007, 22:51
Reading the Decivers background it does say that he was the first one to trick the C'tan into eating other C'tan, Necron codex page 31. Then on page 25 it talks of how the Laughing God tricked the Outsider to eat other C'tan. The war in Heaven section also talks of how the Decieverplayed both sides in the war. My personal theory is that the Deciver is to the Eldar both the Laughing God and the Jackle God. Remember the C'tan are the oldest sentient species in the Universe, heck the C'tan were around before Planets formed. I can't see why the Deciever couldn't also be the Laughing God and the Jackle God. Tricking Slaanesh could be nothing more than draining an Eldar of all it's energies, which in the 40K universe could also mean it's soul/spirit.

As for the Khorne/Khaine arguement... have you read Liber Chaotica:Khorne? It does mention Khaine in it and the relationship the 2 gods share. If I recall correctly Khaine is the Eldar/Elf version of Khorne which is the Human version. At their core the 2 share the same emotional spectrum, which the Chaos gods are reflections of.

Necronlord3
07-01-2008, 17:30
And with some very minor conversions(that didn't have to be done to achieve the same effect) the Deceiver can be easily painted and looks allot like a Harlequin. The Head has the Eldar length and Jester like tendrils, the face when painted while is nearly identical to many of the masks of the Harlequins. http://warseer.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=2744&ppuser=7922

http://warseer.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=2745&ppuser=7922

Plus, I am not the only one to have done so:

http://www.coolminiornot.com/29015

Keadaen
07-01-2008, 18:29
I can paint my marines to look like the Chicago Bears, but that doesn't mean theres any link between the two at all.

kind of a poor point to make really.

Paul Nexus
08-01-2008, 00:47
To carry on the off topic point first: The main difference between Khorne and Khain in the fluff is that Khain, despite plaguing the Eldar in their early mythology, inevitably sacrificed his being to protect them, from Slaanesh I believe. Chaos gods are not usually noted for selfless acts. The Avatars are embodiments of Khain's fragmented spirit. It may be similar in principle to daemonology, Khain may have been similar in mind to Khorne in the beginning, but the differences are there.

As for on topic: I think a modular Necron Lord would be good. We have a standard Lord on foot and a destroyer body (a mod, if you will). Maybe alternate body mods, like an arachnid mod. Whilst a destroyer body adds additional Toughness and jetbike abilities, an arachnid body could add an Attack/Strength modifier, plus the ability to ignore difficult terrain. I'm sure there are other possible body modulations out there. I would love to see a Necron Lord with multiple insectoid legs and a huge staff weapon.

vipernyc
08-01-2008, 00:58
I dont know... the recent trend in codexes has been phasing out the "lieutenant" option from most lists; what I mean is, you are not seeing two different statlines for the same character type. Like, in the new chaos dex, instead of being able to take a lord or lieutenant, and buy a sorceror upgrade, or enough gifts to make a DP, you now have 3 seperate HQ choices with their own (semi-)unique role.

If they do anything like that, it will be a different type of lord entirely. Like maybe there will be one CC-oriented lord type, and one that's more of a psyker/special powerz type (I know crons are not psychic, I just mean psyker-type effects). Or

Or, they could simply introduce some kind of heavy armor upgrade as well.

azimaith
08-01-2008, 01:01
Yeah its a common misconception the Deciever and the Laughing god are the same (or more accurately, the deciever is the laughing god) because the deciever is specifically credited with starting C'tan cannibalism. Then you get this fluff with the Laughing God causing it. So you have this golden skinned grinning god whose very much reminicent of the deciever in form doing what the deciever did. Thats why people think that.

Its quite possible the deciever tricked the outsider while playing the laughing god or the laughing god just tricked the outsider and the deciever started willfull cannibalism.

Captain Micha
08-01-2008, 01:05
Given that the laughing god did the tricking, and it is newer, I would say it is probably most likely a case of new fluff replacing 'old' fluff.

I think the deceiver probably infact has not even tasted another C'tan yet, being so far the weakest of the c'tan, I think he probably bluffed his way into that one and of course -everyone- believed him for some reason and since the Outsider did it (who probably had another name and personality at that time) that it must certainly have been true.

Also, the fluff also explains that each time the Outsider ate a C'tan he thought he was infact eating the Laughing god, which drove him abit more and more nutty. (think about it, you just killed your most hated enemy... you kill him again, and again and again... would that not drive you batty?)

azimaith
08-01-2008, 01:12
Given that the laughing god did the tricking, and it is newer, I would say it is probably most likely a case of new fluff replacing 'old' fluff.
I don't think it is since the laughing god only tricked a single c'tan and the part about the laughing god tricking him is in the necron codex along with the Deciever starting the cannibalization.



I think the deceiver probably infact has not even tasted another C'tan yet, being so far the weakest of the c'tan, I think he probably bluffed his way into that one and of course -everyone- believed him for some reason and since the Outsider did it (who probably had another name and personality at that time) that it must certainly have been true.

The Deciever tricked and consumed several of its fellows according to the codex. He just evaded the grasps of the most powerful.



Also, the fluff also explains that each time the Outsider ate a C'tan he thought he was infact eating the Laughing god, which drove him abit more and more nutty. (think about it, you just killed your most hated enemy... you kill him again, and again and again... would that not drive you batty?)
It was also the crazy C'tan essences swirling around in him. To be honest I think the Outsider may have actually *not* wanted to kill other c'tan, but was tricked into it, thus driven mad, while the Nightbringer was quite mad already and was happy to eat them.

Its the difference between a civillian killing someone on accident versus a psychopathic maniac doing it.

Captain Micha
08-01-2008, 01:16
Assuming that codex fluff is still valid of course yes. (in regards to the deceiver's ability to munch on anyone especially given his pantsness next to the crippled and weak nightbringer. ((extra notation, only pants because said Nightbringer is a crippleboy right now, not because of any significant in my opinion power difference between the two presented on the table top))

Maybe the Deceiver found a weak emo C'tan and munched him and then declared it to be the sweetest of feasts, while the Outsider was abit busy trying to munch on the laughing god. I don't think any of the C'tan demonstrate traits even vaguely resembling a conscience (even the chaos gods can say better in that regard) so while the energy of the c'tan might have also had a factor, I doubt guilt was on any level.

Now if the Outsider is alluded to in either a Wd or the next cron codex as being one of the key unifying factors of the Necrontyr/C'tan alliance thing he might have at least not wanted to eat other C'tan.. seeing that for a Civil war that it would be, (when they are not even finished with the war with the old ones yet no less)

azimaith
08-01-2008, 01:21
Assuming that codex fluff is still valid of course yes. (in regards to the deceiver's ability to munch on anyone especially given his pantsness next to the crippled and weak nightbringer. ((extra notation, only pants because said Nightbringer is a crippleboy right now, not because of any significant in my opinion power difference between the two presented on the table top))

Well he apparently tricked them, I have no idea if that means he jumped out from behind a bush in a park like a bad horror movie or if it was something more complex.



Maybe the Deceiver found a weak emo C'tan and munched him and then declared it to be the sweetest of feasts, while the Outsider was abit busy trying to munch on the laughing god. I don't think any of the C'tan demonstrate traits even vaguely resembling a conscience (even the chaos gods can say better in that regard) so while the energy of the c'tan might have also had a factor, I doubt guilt was on any level.
I can't say that none had any conscience. Its important to realize that to the C'tan things like the Necrontyr are nothing more than ants milling about their feet. A person might step on ants all the time, they might go out of their way to smush a roach, but they'll balk at the idea of killing and eating another person.

Captain Micha
08-01-2008, 01:23
Apparently though the Dragon's servants were somewhat liked by said C'tan since they were the most well 'equipped'?

You just made me have a vision crossed of a bad bad dracula and the deceiver... "Blah blah bleh I've come to suck vour blood!" (You said bad horror movie.. you're at fault there. ;)

They need to do more with the fluff though in any case. Especially since they did what... one WD.... sheesh..... if only marines got so neglected.

chaos0xomega
08-01-2008, 01:30
Ummm . . . Khorne wasn't always a mindless berko (did you make that word up?) that only cares about blood flowing. He's gotten more bloodthirsty lately.

One might say he gets angry from time to time and slaughters things recklessly.


Errrrrmmmm... why are you talking as if Khorne or ANY of the Chaos Gods are tangible beings? They AREN'T. The Eldar Gods and the C'tan were physical tangible things, they actually existed, spoke, etc. etc. etc. The Chaos Gods however, don't technically "exist" they're kind of like modern day satanism. A concept that is embodied by the idea of a higher being that doesn't exist.

As for "berko" thats short for berzerker I think. And he's not talking about KHARN which is what it sounds like you're speaking, he's talking about KHORNE, the "GOD" that KHARN WORSHIPS.


Remember the C'tan are the oldest sentient species in the Universe, heck the C'tan were around before Planets formed. I can't see why the Deciever couldn't also be the Laughing God and the Jackle God. Tricking Slaanesh could be nothing more than draining an Eldar of all it's energies, which in the 40K universe could also mean it's soul/spirit.


While technically correct, the C'tan did not achieve sentience until relatively recently. The first sentient C'tan was the Nightbringer who was awakened by the Necrontyr about 6million years ago.

As for the Deciever being the Laughing God and vice-versa, its "technologically" impossible for them to be the same. Eldar Gods are by definition warp entities(but tangible ones unlike the Chaos Gods, Khaine and the others can actually physically interact with their worshippers unlike Chaos Gods, an example of this is seen in Vaul who forged those special watchamacallits(not the Balckstone Fortresses, I'm talking 'bout them spear things) for the Eldar and whatnot), while as others have said, the C'tan cannot enter the Warp or they will be destroyed(not weakened, but full-on destroyed, hence the Blackstone Fortresses).

Anyway, on to the POINT of this topic, the Necron Nodal Command structure. I initially thought the same thing as the OP but I'm still not sure... There are 4 "levels" Bronze, Silver, Gold, and Platinum. It is unknown if Platinum level exists, as none have been encountered as of yet, and it is just hypothesized that there is one(and as such, we wont see a platinum level commander in the next Codex assuming we see any variations). Also, it should be mentioned that the levels are merely "ranks" those of you suggesting that a different level lord would have a different body are unfortunately in the wrong, as it is stated that if a gold level commander is destroyed, a silver one is immediately elevated to replace it to ensure that communications and decision making is unaffected. Also, it appears that Lord "levels" aren't really an indicator of wargear or anything really, as to me it seems all Lords are the same and the different "levels" are just indicators of what part of the c&c network they fall under(as in, what their job is), although it does mention that Gold Level Commanders have access to Pariahs and to many of the more powerful warmachines available to the Necrons.

Captain Micha
08-01-2008, 01:31
60 million actually *s*

and yes berko is short for bezerking melee loving lunatic that has no lick of martial sense what so ever. I ripped it off from someone else on Warseer. Not describing Kharn but Khorne, as he was portrayed in the old chaos codex. Yea.. some war god allright....

Also the choas gods are 'real' in the sense they are a collective pool of like negative emotions. "Sloth" "Lust" "Wrath" and "Envy" However they are non existant in the sense of being able to exist on this plane, which the Eldar's gods and the C'tan both are described as existing outside of the warp a few times.

chaos0xomega
08-01-2008, 01:37
The C'tan exist outside of the warp entirely... just clarifying. And forgive me, you're right, 60 million. Oh, and Khorne isn't "god of war" he's "god of killing" slight difference there.

Paul Nexus
08-01-2008, 01:38
That does make a lot of sense. The Necron fluff indicates that while most of the Necrontyr lost their identities, the strongest retained their intellects, of a sort. A shadow of their former identities. It's fair to assume that the strongest willed of the Necrontyr would form the higher tier Necron Lords, still able to co-ordinate and think relatively independantly. If he were to be destroyed, a lesser, but still strong minded Lord would be designated to take his place.

Of course this is mere conjecture gleaned from the fluff as I see it. The fluff never explicitly states that every Necron becomes a complete mindless automaton, in fact it hints that the strongest may retain parts of their identity. Like a sort of amnesia, they sort of know who they are, but not quite.

Paul Nexus
08-01-2008, 01:41
The C'tan exist outside of the warp entirely... just clarifying. And forgive me, you're right, 60 million. Oh, and Khorne isn't "god of war" he's "god of killing" slight difference there.

Khorne is the embodiment of anger and hatred, the creation of the base emotion of most living beings. Chaos gods are merely emotions coalesced into sentient warp entities. They will never be gone as long as races whos minds touch the warp feed their emotions. Basically, they all need to become Vulcans.:D

Sekhmet
08-01-2008, 01:54
the C'tan cannot enter the Warp or they will be destroyed(not weakened, but full-on destroyed, hence the Blackstone Fortresses).

That's wrong, but also off topic.

azimaith
08-01-2008, 02:09
Apparently though the Dragon's servants were somewhat liked by said C'tan since they were the most well 'equipped'?
Argh! My brain! How dare you put such an image out there.



You just made me have a vision crossed of a bad bad dracula and the deceiver... "Blah blah bleh I've come to suck vour blood!" (You said bad horror movie.. you're at fault there. ;)

I'll take full responsibility for that, you take full responsibility for talking about necron's junk.



They need to do more with the fluff though in any case. Especially since they did what... one WD.... sheesh..... if only marines got so neglected.
Theres alot of room for expansion and fleshing out for necrons. Well actually, theres alot of room for that for every xenos race save maybe eldar.



While technically correct, the C'tan did not achieve sentience until relatively recently. The first sentient C'tan was the Nightbringer who was awakened by the Necrontyr about 6million years ago.
Thats not accurate either. The C'tan had sentience from the beginning, they only turned that sentience toward the microcosm that we all live in when they were entered the necrodermis. They were sentient since damn near the beginning of time when they were formed from the beginning of the universe.




As for the Deciever being the Laughing God and vice-versa, its "technologically" impossible for them to be the same. Eldar Gods are by definition warp entities(but tangible ones unlike the Chaos Gods, Khaine and the others can actually physically interact with their worshippers unlike Chaos Gods, an example of this is seen in Vaul who forged those special watchamacallits(not the Balckstone Fortresses, I'm talking 'bout them spear things) for the Eldar and whatnot), while as others have said,

Well Khaine and the Nightbringer actually fought one another so thats apparent.



the C'tan cannot enter the Warp or they will be destroyed(not weakened, but full-on destroyed, hence the Blackstone Fortresses).

Thats not accurate nor is it inferred anywhere in the fluff. The word anathema is a noun and it is the warp that is the anathema, not the c'tan.

Captain Micha
08-01-2008, 02:12
you so went the wrong direction with that. I wasn't sure how to phrase it really I mean what do I say? They got the best motherboard and processor bundles? *L* We know they are supposed to be teched out to the max as far as crons go. I will take responsibility none the less. Now that I reread that statement it's kinda hard not to draw the wrong conclusion from that.

In a way I kinda relish the lack of attention the Necrons have gotten, it's allowed me to work on my Lord's fluff more or less uninhibited with what they are or aren't supposed to be. Will I be super angry if they suddenly open up with new fluff? Most likely not, or I certainly hope not at least since I went with a rather obscure idea for my lord and fluff.

azimaith
08-01-2008, 02:27
you so went the wrong direction with that. I wasn't sure how to phrase it really I mean what do I say? They got the best motherboard and processor bundles? *L* We know they are supposed to be teched out to the max as far as crons go. I will take responsibility none the less. Now that I reread that statement it's kinda hard not to draw the wrong conclusion from that.
You totally did that on purpose :P. But yeah, they were pretty much the most advanced and shot all sorts of crazy lightning out and what not. Supposedly there are necrons who used that technology in the metlec loop. Since they specifically separate them from the normal lightning like gauss weapons we can assume its probably more like the lightning tendrils you see on necron space craft than it is like shooting lightning out your bum.



In a way I kinda relish the lack of attention the Necrons have gotten, it's allowed me to work on my Lord's fluff more or less uninhibited with what they are or aren't supposed to be. Will I be super angry if they suddenly open up with new fluff? Most likely not, or I certainly hope not at least since I went with a rather obscure idea for my lord and fluff.
Well in a way being ignored helps you avoid "most popular army so I hate it" syndrome. Overall though I think more fluff tends to lead to more people learning about the race in which case you'd run into less questions about necron background.

Captain Micha
08-01-2008, 02:32
True.. as it is people hate necrons for no explained reason. Other than they get rules that Space Marines do not.

wow... I just realised how accurate that statement is. They are the only army in the entire game with rules of their own, that Marines have yet to rip off. (even if marines did get a -better- version of wbb...)

Tennemar
08-01-2008, 03:08
Have any of you read Xenology? In it, there's a gold-level Necron lord who has been impersonating an inquisitor for a long time. He has retained all of his memories and personality.

Captain Micha
08-01-2008, 03:10
Yeah, I have. *L* That's the whole reason actually that I felt -encouraged- to continue creating and developing my Lady's fluff. (well was a c'tan priestess at one time...)

Lord Raneus
08-01-2008, 03:20
True.. as it is people hate necrons for no explained reason. Other than they get rules that Space Marines do not.

wow... I just realised how accurate that statement is. They are the only army in the entire game with rules of their own, that Marines have yet to rip off. (even if marines did get a -better- version of wbb...)

If they get Feel No Pain and S&P, then they're shiny metal Death Guard crossed with Thousand Sons.

Marines in some form prevail again. :D

azimaith
08-01-2008, 03:23
That reminds me, is there some way to get FNP on nurgle terminators?

Ah well, off topic, but who knows. Necron teleportation seems to keep them rather distinct.

Captain Micha
08-01-2008, 03:25
I was thinking of Deathcompany... *L* with Rending, and Fnp

Lord Raneus
08-01-2008, 03:29
And here we see one of the wonders of the Internet.

Captain Micha was so clever, he made my eyes see different words from what he must have posted!!!1one1!!one11!! :eek:

Seriously though, get a life, for Christ's sake. :rolleyes:

Captain Micha
08-01-2008, 03:30
Someone must watch the history channel and must have been watching the special about "Nazi America"

Man I am talented, I'm so good that I can even fool my own eyes with what I post!

starlight
08-01-2008, 03:31
Please ignore the Trolls. The Inquisition doesn't want any more work than absolutely required...

Thank you.:)

starlight
The Warseer Inquisition

Captain Micha
08-01-2008, 03:34
We won't feed them. promise!

Lord Raneus
08-01-2008, 03:35
Sorry, I was bored and wanted to have a little fun. Won't happen again. :)

chaos0xomega
08-01-2008, 03:52
That does make a lot of sense. The Necron fluff indicates that while most of the Necrontyr lost their identities, the strongest retained their intellects, of a sort. A shadow of their former identities. It's fair to assume that the strongest willed of the Necrontyr would form the higher tier Necron Lords, still able to co-ordinate and think relatively independantly. If he were to be destroyed, a lesser, but still strong minded Lord would be designated to take his place.

Of course this is mere conjecture gleaned from the fluff as I see it. The fluff never explicitly states that every Necron becomes a complete mindless automaton, in fact it hints that the strongest may retain parts of their identity. Like a sort of amnesia, they sort of know who they are, but not quite.

Well, the Apoc fluff indicates that they are in fact mindless automatons, but the Tomb complex uploads more data into the Lord's databanks and allows it greater independence and self-though, with higher level lords being even more flexible.


Khorne is the embodiment of anger and hatred, the creation of the base emotion of most living beings. Chaos gods are merely emotions coalesced into sentient warp entities. They will never be gone as long as races whos minds touch the warp feed their emotions.

I don't know about sentient, I have yet to read a fluff piece where Tzeentch him/her/itself goes to one of his/hers/its worshippers and gives them direction.

The only thing that leads me to believe otherwise is the Skull Throne bit, but I think even that is just figuritive speech.


That's wrong, but also off topic.

What part of it is wrong? It's a well known fact that the C'tan and the Warp don't mix. Theres a reason why the Necrons had a (rather unfluffy) mission to build a void shield around Medusa V. It's not because the C'tan wanted to spare the planets populace from the predations of the warp, I assure you that, and it's not because there was a tomb complex on Medusa V either(there wasn't one before you say anything, so thats not a valid reason either). It was so the C'tan could feed safely for an eternity(this is the un-fluffy part) without having to worry about the warp destroying it.

Also, the C'tan want to seal the Warp off from realspace for a reason. Oh, and lets not forget the fact that the Necrons never enter the warp either. Their method of faster than light travel sees them travelling at superluminal speed through realspace instead.


Thats not accurate either. The C'tan had sentience from the beginning, they only turned that sentience toward the microcosm that we all live in when they were entered the necrodermis. They were sentient since damn near the beginning of time when they were formed from the beginning of the universe.

The codex says they were self-aware, it doesn't say sentient, you can be sentient without being self-aware(its part of the definition of sentience). The codex also plays them out to be rather child-like(in a Freudian sense) being completely unaware of everything except hunger and the food that they used to satiate that hunger.
Also- read the top of page 25, it says that the C'tan could not percieve the material world without manefesting themselves.

And anathema is not a noun. A noun denotes a person, place, or thing. The word anathema is a word used to describe a noun, therefore its an adjective, as it modifies and/or qualifies a noun. The definition of the word anathema is varied, but in modern usage it has come to mean something polluted or accursed, or something hated and despised.

Read p 26, it suggests the C'tan were incapable of defending against psychic powers and the powers of the warp(hence they're plan to seal the warp). Also, the nightbringers weapon has been banished to the warp, and he cannot retrieve it(p 28) this was the decievers treachery(which he couldn't do himself, and so had others do it for him).
P31 makes it clear that the Talismans of Vaul(the Blackstone Fortresses) were weapons designed to destroy the C'tan. Blackstone Fortresses, as everyone knows are armed with Warp Cannons... hmmm, what does that say about them and the C'tan.

And lets not forget the presence of the Cadian Gate. There's a reason why it exists, and thats the Necrons(they have Pylons on Cadia).

Also, just because its a convenient source of relatively accurate info:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackstone_Fortress
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%27tan

azimaith
08-01-2008, 04:13
Well, the Apoc fluff indicates that they are in fact mindless automatons, but the Tomb complex uploads more data into the Lord's databanks and allows it greater independence and self-though, with higher level lords being even more flexible.

The apoc fluff is from Imperials xenology tells us they have bare whispers of memories and its from a necron lord.



What part of it is wrong? It's a well known fact that the C'tan and the Warp don't mix.

As per the definition of anathema, the warp is something that is loathed and hated by the C'tan. Why is unknown.



Theres a reason why the Necrons had a (rather unfluffy) mission to build a void shield around Medusa V. It's not because the C'tan wanted to spare the planets populace from the predations of the warp, I assure you that, and it's not because there was a tomb complex on Medusa V either(there wasn't one before you say anything, so thats not a valid reason either). It was so the C'tan could feed safely for an eternity(this is the un-fluffy part) without having to worry about the warp destroying it.

C'tan have their necrons feed them. Necrons suffer in exposure to the warp and necrons are not C'tan. Thats why the deciever left the lord of storms as punishment. Its hard to run a farm if your farmhands are always getting attacked.



Also, the C'tan want to seal the Warp off from realspace for a reason. Oh, and lets not forget the fact that the Necrons never enter the warp either. Their method of faster than light travel sees them travelling at superluminal speed through realspace instead.

No, they go faster than light, in fact its described as "Able to cross the vast gulfs of the galaxy in the blink of an eye" or something very similar. They don't need to use the warp to travel, they move faster outside of it. The c'tan do hate the warp, but theres no indication of why they hate it. It may just smell like old funions to them.



The codex says they were self-aware, it doesn't say sentient, you can be sentient without being self-aware(its part of the definition of sentience). The codex also plays them out to be rather child-like(in a Freudian sense) being completely unaware of everything except hunger and the food that they used to satiate that hunger.

sen·tient /ˈsɛnʃənt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[sen-shuhnt] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective
1. having the power of perception by the senses; conscious.
2. characterized by sensation and consciousness.
–noun
3. a person or thing that is sentient.
4. Archaic. the conscious mind.
[/quote]
How were they not sentient? They could sense things are were conscious.

American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source - Share This
self-a·ware (sělf'ə-wâr')
adj. Aware of oneself, including one's traits, feelings, and behaviors.

If they're aware of their feelings they're certainly capable of sensing things.



Also- read the top of page 25, it says that the C'tan could not percieve the material world without manefesting themselves.

So how does that make them non sentient. They were capable of detecting the energy of stars. Once they were in smaller bodies they began to pay attention to the other beings inhabiting the galaxy.



And anathema is not a noun. A noun denotes a person, place, or thing. The word anathema is a word used to describe a noun, therefore its an adjective, as it modifies and/or qualifies a noun.

No, its a noun.
·nath·e·ma /əˈnæθəmə/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
[U]–noun, plural -mas.
1. a person or thing detested or loathed: That subject is anathema to him.
2. a person or thing accursed or consigned to damnation or destruction.
3. a formal ecclesiastical curse involving excommunication.
4. any imprecation of divine punishment.
5. a curse; execration.




The definition of the word anathema is varied, but in modern usage it has come to mean something polluted or accursed, or something hated and despised.

It is a person or thing hated, consigned to damnation or destruction, and its also *a curse* not cursed. Anathema is a noun.



Read p 26, it suggests the C'tan were incapable of defending against psychic powers and the powers of the warp(hence they're plan to seal the warp).

No, it states that they battled necron science against warp spawned magick and were sent reeling. Warp spawned magick at that time>Necron science. Its obvious they can defend themselves from it, they do it with null shields and their ilk.



Also, the nightbringers weapon has been banished to the warp, and he cannot retrieve it(p 28) this was the decievers treachery(which he couldn't do himself, and so had others do it for him).

Just about anything lost in the warp in irretrievable, at least without a psyker. Guess what the nightbringer doens't have. Beyond that, the warp is something they hate and loath because its an anathema.



P31 makes it clear that the Talismans of Vaul(the Blackstone Fortresses) were weapons designed to destroy the C'tan. Blackstone Fortresses, as everyone knows are armed with Warp Cannons... hmmm, what does that say about them and the C'tan.

That warp energy can affect C'tan to some degree. Just because a person is hurt by someone turning on a stereo a centimeter from their ear on full blast doesn't mean that all sound hurts them. Same with the c'tan, they use huge space station sized guns (6 of them) to try and kill them, which they didn't even do.



And lets not forget the presence of the Cadian Gate. There's a reason why it exists, and thats the Necrons(they have Pylons on Cadia).

Also, just because its a convenient source of relatively accurate info:
And your point? They're trying to stop the eye of terror from expanding. once again they hate the warp, why would they want something they hate to ruin their pristine harvesting ground.

Necronlord3
08-01-2008, 14:03
If the C'Tan and chaos entities are so incompatiable then the Outsider would only be feasting on the Laughing God if he in fact would/should/could have been a C'Tan.

Necronlord3
08-01-2008, 14:10
I can paint my marines to look like the Chicago Bears, but that doesn't mean theres any link between the two at all.

kind of a poor point to make really.


I don't think you could be more wrong. You can't simply paint a Tau to look like a Khorne Berzerker or a Plague marine to look like an Eldar, but the Deceiver is very easily painted to represent the Laughing God. Every aspect of the Deceiver makes him look like a Harlequin and the Harlequin sculpts are clearly similar if not intentionally the same. Plus the Deceiver is also picuted in the Necron Codex with clown like make up. The Picture is the one in the C'Tan section, not the Deceiver section. In reality the Deceiver model came long after the Eldar Models and clearly the similarity in his head features to those of the Eldar costumes appears to be intentional. Fluff wise it made absoulute sense for the Eldar to mimick their god and base the costumes and equipment from him.

chaos0xomega
08-01-2008, 17:50
No, they go faster than light, in fact its described as "Able to cross the vast gulfs of the galaxy in the blink of an eye" or something very similar. They don't need to use the warp to travel, they move faster outside of it. The c'tan do hate the warp, but theres no indication of why they hate it. It may just smell like old funions to them.

Dude thats what I said. And the reason they hate the warp IS BECAUSE IT KILLS THEM. Read the parts of the codex I directed you to. It doesn't specifically say it, but it says as much as "the C'tan were powerless against the forces of the Empyrean."

You said:

If they're aware of their feelings they're certainly capable of sensing things.
I said:

Also- read the top of page 25, it says that the C'tan could not percieve the material world without manefesting themselves.
You said:

So how does that make them non sentient. They were capable of detecting the energy of stars. Once they were in smaller bodies they began to pay attention to the other beings inhabiting the galaxy.

You have bad reading comprehension skills. Part of the full definition of being sentient is that a sentient creature need not be self-aware. The opposite also must then be true. You can have self-awareness without being sentient. As the C'tan were. Also, note that they could not percieve the material world, therefore they are lacking sentience. Most - if not all parasites - are non-sentient, but that doesn't stop them from finding there food source, does it?


No, its a noun.
·nath·e·ma /əˈnæθəmə/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[uh-nath-uh-muh] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun, plural -mas.
1. a person or thing detested or loathed: That subject is anathema to him.
2. a person or thing accursed or consigned to damnation or destruction.
3. a formal ecclesiastical curse involving excommunication.
4. any imprecation of divine punishment.
5. a curse; execration.
Thats just wierd...


It is a person or thing hated, consigned to damnation or destruction, and its also *a curse* not cursed. Anathema is a noun.


In the past, anathema had a very different definition. It meant something along the lines of "offering to God."


That warp energy can affect C'tan to some degree. Just because a person is hurt by someone turning on a stereo a centimeter from their ear on full blast doesn't mean that all sound hurts them. Same with the c'tan, they use huge space station sized guns (6 of them) to try and kill them, which they didn't even do.

Thats because the Deciever saw to it that they never even had a chance to use them. While you are right that warp-energies are basically deadly to anything LIVING(which the C'tan are not, being pure energy), it is suggested(and basically flat-out stated in other non-codex pieces of fluff) that the warp will flat-out destroy C'tan(who are "Gods", and therefore wouldn't be expected to die from such things).

and you didn't even bother to read the wiki links, you would see a few holes in your argument if you did.



I don't think you could be more wrong. You can't simply paint a Tau to look like a Khorne Berzerker or a Plague marine to look like an Eldar, but the Deceiver is very easily painted to represent the Laughing God. Every aspect of the Deceiver makes him look like a Harlequin and the Harlequin sculpts are clearly similar if not intentionally the same. Plus the Deceiver is also picuted in the Necron Codex with clown like make up. The Picture is the one in the C'Tan section, not the Deceiver section. In reality the Deceiver model came long after the Eldar Models and clearly the similarity in his head features to those of the Eldar costumes appears to be intentional. Fluff wise it made absoulute sense for the Eldar to mimick their god and base the costumes and equipment from him.

Ughh...

Look at the REAL Deciever, he looks nothing at all like that.To me it looks like you greenstuffed the face of your deciever. Why would you do that if he is such a perfect Harlequin? Oh, and the Deciever was used to make a Sanguinus mini. Clearly then, the Deciever must also be Sanguinus(or was it the Nightbringer?)

Oh, and the Deciever looks nothing at all like Harlequins. Look at the NEW models, they are all rather serious looking(aside from those ridiculous paint-jobs), and have rather smooth facial features(and none of the "jester" tendrils you claim them to have). And the OLD Harlequins? The ones that came BEFORE the Deciever instead of AFTER IT?

http://store.us.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.us?do=List_Models&code=305630&orignav=301117&GameNav=301115
http://store.us.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.us?do=List_Models&code=304605&orignav=301117&GameNav=301115

There's absolutely no resemblance there. Any percieved resemblance is the result of your desire for there to be one, as well as the similarity in the nature of the Laughing God and the Deciever, but Tzeentch also shares this similarity. OH NOES, THEY MUST ALL BE THE SAME!

Sekhmet
08-01-2008, 18:37
You have bad reading comprehension skills. Part of the full definition of being sentient is that a sentient creature need not be self-aware. The opposite also must then be true.

You have bad logic skills.

A game need not be Warhammer 40k (there are other games, like chess). Does that mean Warhammer 40k need not be a game?



In the past, anathema had a very different definition. It meant something along the lines of "offering to God."

I can't find anything that proves that statement. As far as I can tell, anathema has always meant something along the lines of "cast away from god".



Thats because the Deciever saw to it that they never even had a chance to use them.

The blackstone fortresses were used against the void dragon. And guess what? It didn't die.



While you are right that warp-energies are basically deadly to anything LIVING(which the C'tan are not, being pure energy), it is suggested(and basically flat-out stated in other non-codex pieces of fluff) that the warp will flat-out destroy C'tan(who are "Gods", and therefore wouldn't be expected to die from such things).

No it isn't suggested that. Not in the slightest.

Grimtuff
08-01-2008, 19:19
I don't think you could be more wrong. You can't simply paint a Tau to look like a Khorne Berzerker or a Plague marine to look like an Eldar, but the Deceiver is very easily painted to represent the Laughing God. Every aspect of the Deceiver makes him look like a Harlequin and the Harlequin sculpts are clearly similar if not intentionally the same. Plus the Deceiver is also picuted in the Necron Codex with clown like make up. The Picture is the one in the C'Tan section, not the Deceiver section. In reality the Deceiver model came long after the Eldar Models and clearly the similarity in his head features to those of the Eldar costumes appears to be intentional. Fluff wise it made absoulute sense for the Eldar to mimick their god and base the costumes and equipment from him.

Just because your username is a Necron one does not make you the be-all and end-all font of info about Necrons. YOUR logic is flawed here.

Has there been any artwork of the Laughing God? Nope. How are we supposed to know what he looks like then? By your logic if I paint some SM to look like clown then they too are connected to the Laughing God. The Deceiver looks like what you perceive TLG to look like but as we have no existing artwork of any Eldar deities then we have nothing to go on.

"Looks like" and "are" are not the same thing. I've been told I look a little like Peter Sutcliffe, does this make me the Yorkshire Ripper? Erm no.

Paint schemes do not come into the equation at all. All HE/DE/WE figures from WHFB are easily able to be painted to look like Eldar by virtues of the fact they have similar racial characteristics, does this make Elves in WHFB Eldar? By your logic it does sunshine.

kore
08-01-2008, 21:28
Everyone, please read the second paragraph under the heading "War in Heaven" on page 24 of Codex Necrons.

Here you will find the statement that clearly states they (the C'tan) were sentient and more ancient than anything in creation.

The fact of the matter remain: Both the Laughing God and the Deceiver were about the business of tricking the Outsider into consuming other C'tan. It can be deduced that they are the same entity. To be clear, I'm not arguing that the Chaos gods and Eldar gods analogous entities, just the aforementioned possibility. It should be noted the Eldar acknowledge that the information coming from a time of war in heaven and that seperating truth from myth is impossible (page 30 Codex Necrons, paragraph 2).

The horrifying truth is that, as the fluff indicates, we'll never know because of the deceptions of the Deceiver. It is his namesake after all.

What I'm getting at is that the claim that the Laughing God is the Deceiver is not out of the question.

chaos0xomega
08-01-2008, 22:07
You have bad logic skills.
No, I just tried to take the easy way out and hope noone would notice. Here's a more in depth analysis:
Self-Awareness:

knowledge of ones own character, feelings, motives and desires

Self-awareness is the explicit understanding that one exists. Furthermore, it includes the concept that one exists as an individual with private thoughts

Self awareness is the concept of inherent ability to define oneself as an individual who is seperate from it's surroundings. Self awareness largely goes hand in hand with the concept of sapience, since sapience is by default what makes an organism able to think for itself. ...

Sapience:

wisdom; sageness

Sapience is the ability of an organism or entity to act with judgment.

Sentience:

It may be conscious in the generic sense of simply being a sentient creature, one capable of sensing and responding to its world (Armstrong 1981)

The quality or state of being sentient; Feeling as distinguished from perception or thought.

the readiness to perceive sensations; elementary or undifferentiated consciousness; "gave sentience to slugs and newts"- Richard Eberhart

Sentience refers to utilization of sensory organs or organelles, the ability to feel or perceive subjectively, not necessarily including the faculty of self-awareness. The possession of sapience is not a necessity. The word sentient is often confused with the word sapient, which can connote knowledge, consciousness, or apperception. The two words can be distinguished by looking at their Latin roots: sentire, "to feel"; and sapere, "to know". Sentience is the ability to sense. It is separate from, and not dependent on, aspects of consciousness.

Now, what you should be getting from all this, is that the C'tan knew of their own existance(and possibly that of their food-sources assuming that they weren't merely living in a parasitic manner), but that doesn't mean that they "felt" anything else. In fact, from p24 of the Necron codex::

They paid no heed to the hunks of solid matter which they passed in the void, the internal fires and pulsing electromagnetism of these new-born planets insufficient to even register on their monstrous hunger
Clearly they are unable to percieve/feel the existence of these external sources of energy, leaving them devoid of one of the key aspects of sentience. In addition, nowhere does it state that they could sense the existance of the stars they fed on either. The codex states they left their birthplaces to DRIFT to new feeding grounds, implying that they did not know where they were going, only that they would eventually come to find something else to feed on. Similar to a parasite, which need not be sentient(look for yourself for real world examples if you want proof) to consume food. Therefore, C'tan are self-aware, and sapient, but not sentient. Very different things right there.


I can't find anything that proves that statement. As far as I can tell, anathema has always meant something along the lines of "cast away from god".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anathema will tell you all you need to know.


The blackstone fortresses were used against the void dragon. And guess what? It didn't die.


No, it didn't, but it was grievously injured and weakened by the event, and FORCED to enter stasis on Mars to regenerate its strength, unlike the Deciever and Nightbringer which entered stasis voluntarily in order to weather out the absence of life in the galaxy and the enslaver plague. Also remember that the Void Dragon is generally regarded on the most powerful of the C'tan so it would have been more likely to survive a blast from a fortress(also remember that several blackstone fortresses acting in concert with eachother are far more powerful, and the force that almost took down the Void Dragon only had one). Also, read the last section of P31. It lays it out pretty clearly that the Deciever is responsible for destroying most of the Blackstone Fortresses(or setting those events in motion), and that the original purpose of the Fortresses was to destroy the C'tan.


No it isn't suggested that. Not in the slightest.

Ummm... yes it is. Again, see above, and maybe read the Necron codex in full. You'll see it pretty damned clearly that the Warp is bad for the C'tan, and Blackstone Fortresses, which fire more or less pure warp energy are designed for the sole purpose of destroying C'tan. Destroy implies "permanently gone" (remember, "matter cannot be destroyed, only changed?" exactly). Hell, look at P26 at the top it says that the C'tan stopped fighting amongst themselves for the first time in millions of years in order to find a way to stop the warp-powers of the young races.



Here you will find the statement that clearly states they (the C'tan) were sentient and more ancient than anything in creation.

While you are right, it doesn't say whether they were sentient in their original form or not(which is what this argument is about, some are arguing that they were, I am arguing that they weren't until they entered the Necrodermis). Read the top of P 25, it lays it out that they could not percieve the material world without manifesting themselve[in a necrodermis]. And if you read the definition of sentience, then it's pretty clear that they weren't sentient before that point as they were unable to percieve anything but themselves, thus they did not fulfill the requirements for sentience.


The fact of the matter remain: Both the Laughing God and the Deceiver were about the business of tricking the Outsider into consuming other C'tan. It can be deduced that they are the same entity. To be clear, I'm not arguing that the Chaos gods and Eldar gods analogous entities, just the aforementioned possibility. It should be noted the Eldar acknowledge that the information coming from a time of war in heaven and that seperating truth from myth is impossible (page 30 Codex Necrons, paragraph 2).

Just a quick note. The Laughing God tricked the Outsider, the Deciever tricked all the other C'tan, and the way they each went about doing it was very different.

P28 says the Deciever convinced the Nightbringer that "the most succulent feasts were to be had in the living energies of it's fellow C'tan" and that "others followed the Nightbringer's example and fed upon one another."
P25 says that the Laughing God tricked only the Outsider, and other pieces of fluff play out how exactly this was achieved, and it was far different than just convincing the Nightbringer to do it.

Finally I think these wikiquotes settle the matter nicely(its always good to go back to origin stories. It is well known that the Deciever is in fact a C'tan, so there is no possible way that the Laughing God just pretended to be the Deciever, and it is impossible for the Deciever to pretend to be the Laughing God, you'll see why in a few moments):

The Laughing God is sometimes confused with the Deceiver. There are a pair of stories about the Laughing God and the Deceiver respectively which cause this confusion, as well as the fact both are known as Trickster Gods. In one, the Laughing God tricks the Outsider into eating many other C'tan, driving him insane. In the other, the Deceiver consumed several C'tan to increase his own power and convinced the Nightbringer and the Void Dragon to do likewise. Neither of these C'tan, nor the Deceiver, were driven insane; obviously a significant difference. A possible reason for the Outsider going insane is that the Laughing God tricked it into consuming his brethren, the other Eldar gods, rather than other C'tan.

Perhaps most significant however is the obvious difference between the origins of the Laughing God and the Deceiver. The Laughing God was created by the belief of the Eldar, in the same way as were Kaela Mensha Khaine, Isha and the other Eldar Gods, and as such is a warp entity. This is supported by his ability to compete for Eldar souls with Slaanesh. The Deceiver however is a C'tan, a being entirely of the material universe. The mysteries of the Immaterium are beyond the C'tan, who find the Warp an entirely uninhabitable place. Thus the Deceiver could not fulfill the role ascribed to the Laughing God.

Also note, the Deciever(nor any other C'tan for that matter) cannot enter the warp/webway, but the Laughing God clearly resides IN the webway, so the cannot be one in the same.

oCoYoRoAoKo
08-01-2008, 22:21
Everyone, please read the second paragraph under the heading "War in Heaven" on page 24 of Codex Necrons.

The fact of the matter remain: Both the Laughing God and the Deceiver were about the business of tricking the Outsider into consuming other C'tan. It can be deduced that they are the same entity.

What I'm getting at is that the claim that the Laughing God is the Deceiver is not out of the question.

your source information is somewhat flawed here, nowhere in the necron book does it say that deciever tricked the outsider into eating other c'tan. what it does say however, is that

1. "as harvests grew thin, C'tan eventually devoured C'tan until only a few were left"

2. "Nightbringer was undone when the Deciever convinced it that the most succulent feasts were to be had in the living energies of its fellow C'tan. As the C'tan fought among themselves, others followed the Nightbringers example and fed upon one another, but none could match the scale of its slaughter" - NOTE: Nightbringer, not OUTSIDER.

3. "in a whirl of pacts and betrayals the Deciever tricked and consumed several of its fellows, declaring them to be the sweetest of all feasts" - DECIEVER tricking other C'tan in order to consume them.

so, in summary, Nightbringer was convinced (or tricked, or whatever) into eating other C'Tan. Other C'Tan then followed his example, including Deciever himself (though whether before or after he convinced Nightbringer is not known). Nowhere does it say that he tricked outsider, infact the only reference of outsider is in the small passage talking about the laughing god. in that particular story, outsider was after the laughing god and was tricked into eating other C'Tan because he thought they were the laughing god. there is absolutly no reference about the Deciever and Outsider even meeting in any piece of fluff that i know about (though we assume that they did meet at some point in time during the "war in heaven") so i have no idea where this Deciever= Laughing god has even come from.

in terms of the sentience of the C'tan, i dont think that we can for sure say if they were sentient or not. chaos0xomega's quote could be interpreted in the way he claims but also;

"They paid no heed to the hunks of solid matter which they passed in the void, the internal fires and pulsing electromagnetism of these new-born planets insufficient to even register on their monstrous hunger"

this does not mean that they were "unable to percieve/feel the existence of these external sources of energy" simply that they were insufficient to satiate their hunger and they payed no attention to them, if anything you could take this as saying that they could have been aware of the planets but were simply not interested.

"In addition, nowhere does it state that they could sense the existance of the stars they fed on either. The codex states they left their birthplaces to DRIFT to new feeding grounds, implying that they did not know where they were going, only that they would eventually come to find something else to feed on."

i disagree here, a pilot in a glider "drifts" on air currents but knows where he is going and his ultimate destination. Additionally, nowhere does it state that they couldnt sense where they were going. i think that it is inappropriate to make conclusions based on such little information as we have on the c'tan.

Cy.

boogaloo
08-01-2008, 22:45
ok if you go to GW site, look at the eldar archives, there's a bit of fluff there about a harlequin dance, and the war in heaven. Then look in the codecies eldar/necrons. basicly they wanted to put another C'tan as "Maybe he's this god" ie the dragon in mars, and the laughing god/deciever. They deliberately paralleled the two stories to cause a bunch of warhammer freaks to get in heated debates about it. Face it, now you all want to know "THE TRUTH!" (i know i sure did when i found this out) Basicaly Vaul constructed the phase swords, or swords of vaul, to help khaine fight the nightbringer. At the same time he used the idea of necrons to creat living robots from the dead, Wriathguard.

the other bitsd of fluff throughly confuse the deciever and the laughing god

oCoYoRoAoKo
08-01-2008, 22:52
Basicaly Vaul constructed the phase swords, or swords of vaul, to help khaine fight the nightbringer. At the same time he used the idea of necrons to creat living robots from the dead, Wriathguard.


dude, wha ? O.o phase swords are necron tech (being made of necron Living metal and all). also the idea of wraithguard =/= necrons. wraithguard = soul powered machine, necron = machine with the mind of a person imprinted into its programming (atleast they were in the begining) - necrons are not alive.

Cy.

Sekhmet
09-01-2008, 00:36
No, I just tried to take the easy way out and hope noone would notice. Here's a more in depth analysis:

Taking the easy way out never works, especially here.



Self-Awareness:

Sapience:

Sentience:

C'tan were sentient, they sensed things. They knew what was edible and what wasn't. A dog is sentient. A C'tan is too. Now was a C'tan Self-Aware? I don't know. But they are now.

"They paid no heed to the hunks of solid matter which they passed in the void, the internal fires and pulsing electromagnetism of these new-born planets insufficient to even register on their monstrous hunger"

I pay no heed to the grass I step on. That doesn't mean I can't see the grass. Coincidentally, grass is also insufficient to register on my hunger.



Clearly they are unable to percieve/feel the existence of these external sources of energy, leaving them devoid of one of the key aspects of sentience.


Just because they didn't care and dismissed planets doesn't mean they couldn't see them. You're making a huge assumption there.



In addition, nowhere does it state that they could sense the existance of the stars they fed on either.

Nowhere it says they couldn't.



The codex states they left their birthplaces to DRIFT to new feeding grounds, implying that they did not know where they were going, only that they would eventually come to find something else to feed on.

C'tan, while all-powerful, are not all-knowing. Humans drift all the time, for example.



No, it didn't, but it was grievously injured and weakened by the event, and FORCED to enter stasis on Mars to regenerate its strength, unlike the Deciever and Nightbringer which entered stasis voluntarily in order to weather out the absence of life in the galaxy and the enslaver plague. Also remember that the Void Dragon is generally regarded on the most powerful of the C'tan so it would have been more likely to survive a blast from a fortress(also remember that several blackstone fortresses acting in concert with eachother are far more powerful, and the force that almost took down the Void Dragon only had one). Also, read the last section of P31. It lays it out pretty clearly that the Deciever is responsible for destroying most of the Blackstone Fortresses(or setting those events in motion), and that the original purpose of the Fortresses was to destroy the C'tan.

Thanks for the history lesson. I was just refuting the point that you stated that they were never used. It's frankly surprising that ANYTHING could survive the combined power of the talismans. Planet surfaces are stripped when a single talisman fires at it.



Ummm... yes it is. Again, see above, and maybe read the Necron codex in full. You'll see it pretty damned clearly that the Warp is bad for the C'tan, and Blackstone Fortresses, which fire more or less pure warp energy are designed for the sole purpose of destroying C'tan. Destroy implies "permanently gone" (remember, "matter cannot be destroyed, only changed?" exactly). Hell, look at P26 at the top it says that the C'tan stopped fighting amongst themselves for the first time in millions of years in order to find a way to stop the warp-powers of the young races.

I'm not going over this again because we've gone over it in detail in another thread.
It's in background forum about death of c'tan or something.

Vesica
09-01-2008, 00:43
Ok so i havent read more than page one of this thread so im sorry if this has already been said, I have read about 3/4 of 'let the galaxy burn' book and have read the story on the necron lord/ctan (wasnt sure which as in the story he seems to have a personality) the way he is made up from scarabs and so on, so maybe something like that? more personality and higher tech than other lords and so on.

kore
09-01-2008, 01:38
your source information is somewhat flawed here, nowhere in the necron book does it say that deciever tricked the outsider into eating other c'tan.

I apologize, I mispoke. However, the Deceiver initiated and actively promoted cannibalization among the C'tan (paragraph one under "War Among the Gods", page 31 of Codex Necrons). The fact that this was a tactic employed by the Laughing God cannot be overlooked.

Regardless, my only purpose is to point out that it is in the realm of possibilities. Of course, if the Laughing God has a warp-presence then this notion is out of the question as the C'tan are entities of energy (material) and have no warp-presence (immaterial) unlike the beings of the various races whom have both.

Fuel to the fire: Void Dragon == Machine God (no denying this) ;)

chaos0xomega
09-01-2008, 01:49
Just because they didn't care and dismissed planets doesn't mean they couldn't see them. You're making a huge assumption there.


I grow bored with this argument(and we're going nowhere, everyone(including myself) is to firmly entrenched in their beliefs to budge). BUT I can say that I am NOT making a huge assumption here, as C'tan were energy beings, and as such had no eyes nor other sensory organs. Again, they did not originally look the way the models do now. The models represent the C'tan being bound into a tangible physical form by the Necrodermis. As such, it would be impossible for them to percieve anything. They WERE self-aware, because the Codex tells us they were the first Self-Aware beings(note the use of the word being, not organism). This tells us they could feel they were hungry, but it doesn't mean they knew how to find the food sources.

Sekhmet
09-01-2008, 01:57
I grow bored with this argument(and we're going nowhere, everyone(including myself) is to firmly entrenched in their beliefs to budge). BUT I can say that I am NOT making a huge assumption here, as C'tan were energy beings, and as such had no eyes nor other sensory organs. Again, they did not originally look the way the models do now. The models represent the C'tan being bound into a tangible physical form by the Necrodermis. As such, it would be impossible for them to percieve anything. They WERE self-aware, because the Codex tells us they were the first Self-Aware beings(note the use of the word being, not organism). This tells us they could feel they were hungry, but it doesn't mean they knew how to find the food sources.

But the thing is, they STILL don't have eyes nor other sensory organs. They haven't changed at all physically except that they're condensed. Gaining a necrodermis simply means that they have a shell now. They didn't spontaneously gain a brain, eyes, ears, a mouth... They just gained a different perspective of the Universe.

kore
09-01-2008, 04:17
...and as such had no eyes nor other sensory organs. Again, they did not originally look the way the models do now. The models represent the C'tan being bound into a tangible physical form by the Necrodermis. As such, it would be impossible for them to percieve anything.

Hahaha, puny human. How comforting it must be for you to think within the limits of your frail form. But woe to you, for there are things you cannot perceive, the very thought of which would take you into insanity.

*end*

Anyhow, all kidding aside, it is not beyond reason that there are senses beyond the 5 with which we are familiar and it is quite possible that the C'tan have a means to perceive energy. It's bloody science fiction.

As Sekhmet said, they still don't have sensory organs analogous to our own in the forms we're familiar with anyhow.

Necronlord3
10-01-2008, 17:51
Dude thats what I said. And the reason


Ughh...

Look at the REAL Deciever, he looks nothing at all like that.To me it looks like you greenstuffed the face of your deciever. Why would you do that if he is such a perfect Harlequin? Oh, and the Deciever was used to make a Sanguinus mini. Clearly then, the Deciever must also be Sanguinus(or was it the Nightbringer?)

Oh, and the Deciever looks nothing at all like Harlequins. Look at the NEW models, they are all rather serious looking(aside from those ridiculous paint-jobs), and have rather smooth facial features(and none of the "jester" tendrils you claim them to have). And the OLD Harlequins? The ones that came BEFORE the Deciever instead of AFTER IT?

http://store.us.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.us?do=List_Models&code=305630&orignav=301117&GameNav=301115
http://store.us.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.us?do=List_Models&code=304605&orignav=301117&GameNav=301115

There's absolutely no resemblance there. Any percieved resemblance is the result of your desire for there to be one, as well as the similarity in the nature of the Laughing God and the Deciever, but Tzeentch also shares this similarity. OH NOES, THEY MUST ALL BE THE SAME!

What there is not one drop of Green Stuff on the Deceiver's face. A small amout was added to fill in the seams of the Cloth and another minor amount to make the cloth look less like it coming out of him and more like he is wearing it. The only other adjustment on the model was that I took off his ridiculous pointing fingers and applied a zombie hand to look more like the picture of the Deceiver in the Codex.

The Harelequins look a ton like the Deceiver look at the Troop Master's face its nearly the same and IS smiling. 3 other Harlequins have a similar face only this one is'nt smiling and look more like the Deceiver's face in the Artwork from the codex. One of the Shadowseer's masks looks like the Deceiver's face also and has the similar jewel in it's forhead much like many other Eldar models.

And just and FYI, a Harlequin by nature (I'm talking reality for a minute) is at court Jester which traditionally has the same tendrils in its hat. Harelequin --> Looks like Jester --> Deceiver looks like Jester.

And we DO know what the Laughing God looks like because one of the Harlequins represents the Laughing God in their dance.