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Semi_Bunny
03-12-2007, 23:23
Well the other day, I went to play my friend who plays high elves in a game (I play lizardmen). He deployed a fairly typical armylist with some bolt throwers, spearmen, chariots, silver helms, mages, and a few other things, but he had never played with his dragon princes against me. I looked up the stats and they just looked like silver helms with one more attack and a better armorsave, and he had also put a noble into that unit, so that put it semi-high on my priority list to kill. Anyway to keep my battle story short, all his units charged up to mine and the way it worked out, he attempted a charge on my saurus with his dragon princes and failed. The next turn, I charged him with my saurus and my kroxigors on the flank thinking I would beat him with the flank charge, outnumber, and outrank. Of course his good ol' always strike first put the smack on a few of my saurus but I managed to kill 2 of his 5 dragon princes but not the noble. This gave me a 6 for combat resolution (2 wounds, 2 ranks, flank charge, outnumber), and he killed about 2 saurus (since i charged he only had st3) giving me 4 more than him. Then he pulls this battle standard out of no where (well not literally it was on his noble) that adds d6 to his combat resolution and he rolls a 6. This puts his resolution at 8, and with my luck I fail both leadership tests, my kroxigors flee off the board and he overruns my saurus, pretty much sealing the whole game. So my question is, without cannons or any real long range heavy shooting (save a stegadon), how do i beat dragon princes with that standard if its close to impossible in close combat to beat them (with high elves' ASF on top of the standard)? My skink shots also dont do much as they have a 2 up armorsave. The only tactic I'm seeing right now is try to do an empty center kind of maneuver by only putting skinks or something similar in the middle (he puts the dragon princes in the middle usually) and try and get 2 units flank charging, but its lookin pretty hard at the moment. Any advice on how to beat these suckers (other than him being unlucky with his armorsaves) would be much appreciated.


PS-Magic is also out of the question against them because my friend usually brings 2 mages, or techlis, or something of the like.

txamil
03-12-2007, 23:43
Well the other day, I went to play my friend who plays high elves in a game (I play lizardmen). He deployed a fairly typical armylist with some bolt throwers, spearmen, chariots, silver helms, mages, and a few other things, but he had never played with his dragon princes against me. I looked up the stats and they just looked like silver helms with one more attack and a better armorsave, and he had also put a noble into that unit, so that put it semi-high on my priority list to kill. Anyway to keep my battle story short, all his units charged up to mine and the way it worked out, he attempted a charge on my saurus with his dragon princes and failed. The next turn, I charged him with my saurus and my kroxigors on the flank thinking I would beat him with the flank charge, outnumber, and outrank. Of course his good ol' always strike first put the smack on a few of my saurus but I managed to kill 2 of his 5 dragon princes but not the noble. This gave me a 6 for combat resolution (2 wounds, 2 ranks, flank charge, outnumber), and he killed about 2 saurus (since i charged he only had st3) giving me 4 more than him. Then he pulls this battle standard out of no where (well not literally it was on his noble) that adds d6 to his combat resolution and he rolls a 6. This puts his resolution at 8, and with my luck I fail both leadership tests, my kroxigors flee off the board and he overruns my saurus, pretty much sealing the whole game. So my question is, without cannons or any real long range heavy shooting (save a stegadon), how do i beat dragon princes with that standard if its close to impossible in close combat to beat them (with high elves' ASF on top of the standard)? My skink shots also dont do much as they have a 2 up armorsave. The only tactic I'm seeing right now is try to do an empty center kind of maneuver by only putting skinks or something similar in the middle (he puts the dragon princes in the middle usually) and try and get 2 units flank charging, but its lookin pretty hard at the moment. Any advice on how to beat these suckers (other than him being unlucky with his armorsaves) would be much appreciated.


PS-Magic is also out of the question against them because my friend usually brings 2 mages, or techlis, or something of the like.

Play guys that don't roll 6's ;)

Semi_Bunny
03-12-2007, 23:59
yeah honestly this guys my main opponent and hes always rollin 5s and 6s for his wounds with his spearmen and other st3 units, its annoying. Though i guess the first game i played him i was trying out his dwarves and killed his lord with my cannon after he failed his "look out sir", ward save, and i rolled a 6 for wounds. also that game his mage rolled double 1s on a cast and then again on the miscast table. I guess he deserves his good rolls. Anyway, any tactics against these guys or am i screwed?

SV_Harlequin
04-12-2007, 00:09
Generic Way:
You have to shoot them or magic them to thin their numbers so when the Regmient finally hits it won't hit as hard as it would have done. Then you have to hold them as after the charge they will only be S3 and have to rely on their ASave.


For you:
The Problem is the Noble adding the Extra Res so a Regiment that normally relies on hitting killing in one can survive drawn out combat. You have to kill the Noble or practially kill all the DPrinces, unfortunatley the only way to do this is repeatdly hit them with everything, run away from them, or hope you can kill eveyrthing else before the DPrinces kill you.
Knowing the compsition of yours and his armies would help.

Dragon Prince of Caledor
04-12-2007, 00:22
Stegadon....
temple guard wont run so you can wittle down his numbers...

Crazy Harborc
04-12-2007, 00:49
Stegadon....
temple guard wont run so you can wittle down his numbers...

Well, you've got my attention. I am VERY inexperienced at pushing lizzies. I have the stegadon and 20 temple guard. More information please:)

Bretonnian Lord
04-12-2007, 00:52
Well the other day, I went to play my friend who plays high elves in a game (I play lizardmen). He deployed a fairly typical armylist with some bolt throwers, spearmen, chariots, silver helms, mages, and a few other things, but he had never played with his dragon princes against me. I looked up the stats and they just looked like silver helms with one more attack and a better armorsave, and he had also put a noble into that unit, so that put it semi-high on my priority list to kill. Anyway to keep my battle story short, all his units charged up to mine and the way it worked out, he attempted a charge on my saurus with his dragon princes and failed. The next turn, I charged him with my saurus and my kroxigors on the flank thinking I would beat him with the flank charge, outnumber, and outrank. Of course his good ol' always strike first put the smack on a few of my saurus but I managed to kill 2 of his 5 dragon princes but not the noble. This gave me a 6 for combat resolution (2 wounds, 2 ranks, flank charge, outnumber), and he killed about 2 saurus (since i charged he only had st3) giving me 4 more than him. Then he pulls this battle standard out of no where (well not literally it was on his noble) that adds d6 to his combat resolution and he rolls a 6. This puts his resolution at 8, and with my luck I fail both leadership tests, my kroxigors flee off the board and he overruns my saurus, pretty much sealing the whole game. So my question is, without cannons or any real long range heavy shooting (save a stegadon), how do i beat dragon princes with that standard if its close to impossible in close combat to beat them (with high elves' ASF on top of the standard)? My skink shots also dont do much as they have a 2 up armorsave. The only tactic I'm seeing right now is try to do an empty center kind of maneuver by only putting skinks or something similar in the middle (he puts the dragon princes in the middle usually) and try and get 2 units flank charging, but its lookin pretty hard at the moment. Any advice on how to beat these suckers (other than him being unlucky with his armorsaves) would be much appreciated.


PS-Magic is also out of the question against them because my friend usually brings 2 mages, or techlis, or something of the like.


Battle Banner... it's a bitch ;) My friend ALWAYS uses this item, and I've often found out the hard way that it can often turn the tide in a battle. Usually it's one of my top priorities to kill the Elf noble carrying the Battle Banner, whether by whittling his unit down with shooting or targeting him personally in close combat with tooled up characters. If he's dead he can't use the banner! :D

Since you play Lizardmen I'd suggest a Stegadon (Since he's fielding the battle banner in a cavalry unit he won't benefit from Look out Sir!) and D3 wounds+No armor saves=dead elf.

Or maybe a kamikaze JSoD with the sole objective of charging his Battle Banner and killing him.

Without the Battle Banner the dragon princes aren't that bad. Sure, they're 2 attacks strength 5 on the charge but a properly equipped block of Saurus warriors can take it. Give them shields+hand weapons and the spawning that gives +1 armor saves and watch the dragon princes bounce right off. Also consider fielding a Scar vet standard Bearer.... re-rolling failed cold-blooded leadership tests will ensure that your line holds firm against the onslaught.

Voodoo Boyz
04-12-2007, 01:00
The Noble with that banner and the unit of 5 Princes comes in somewhere near the 400 point mark for a unit combo.

Shoot it, shoot it to high bloody hell.

Your Skinks don't do much? Time to buy Sallamanders buddy. ;)

That D6 banner is just nasty with the princes, but boy is it expensive.

Semi_Bunny
04-12-2007, 01:16
so I guess the main jist of the suggestions is to shoot for specifically the noble (using salamanders/stegadon) and nothing else, and once thats down my saurus will be able to take them normally. If the shooting doesnt work yeah i guess I could always throw my JSoD at it, it would probably make up its point value if it killed them. only problem i see would be that he threw a ward save and some other items on the noble as well, but I guess the shooting evrything at it would work as the only other shooting targets of importance in his army for me would be his bolt throwers and mages. thanks everyone for the replies so far.

sabre4190
04-12-2007, 01:21
magic. you have arguably the best casters in the game, so rip into them. All in all, you played the better game in this scenario but were just unlucky if thats any consolation. Soften the unit up beforehand and rip into the unit when the time comes.

Voodoo Boyz
04-12-2007, 01:35
so I guess the main jist of the suggestions is to shoot for specifically the noble (using salamanders/stegadon) and nothing else, and once thats down my saurus will be able to take them normally. If the shooting doesnt work yeah i guess I could always throw my JSoD at it, it would probably make up its point value if it killed them. only problem i see would be that he threw a ward save and some other items on the noble as well, but I guess the shooting evrything at it would work as the only other shooting targets of importance in his army for me would be his bolt throwers and mages. thanks everyone for the replies so far.

Don't sweat it too much on gunning specifically for the Noble, just shoot the crap out of the unit in general. T3 and 2+ Saves mean that you should do enough wounds from some Salamander fire that they'll go away or not be good enough to threaten you even with the banner. ;)

Heck with 3 Sallies, that should put a nice dent in the Dragon Princes with just a round of shooting.

theunwantedbeing
04-12-2007, 02:14
Oldblood, jaguar charm, great weapon?
18" range beats the dragon princes range of a mere 16"
St7 beats t3 2+ save with ease.
He's t5 so those st3 attacks will bounce off him.

Salamanders....although they get 3+ saves vs it, and are arguably immune to their attacks.

Skinks will do the trick.

Slann blasts them with magic.

Sking screen + kroxigor works.

Terradons can easily bait them.

Chamelon skinks to draw them out.

etc etc

Prophet of Quetzl
04-12-2007, 07:50
The way we play it, Sallies are flaming attacks so DP's would be immune.

My suggestion would be a BSB and Quetzl spawned Saurus. I have faced DPs with these guys and they stood up really well - only problem was that I could not match him for pace when he eventually failed his break test with the last surviving DP after several rounds of combat.

Next time I would consider the Jaguar Standard on my BSB or Chotec for the Saurus.

p3990013
04-12-2007, 11:47
Simply direct all the attacks you can, on his BSB.

I faced the same unit you described with 5 chaos knights, warbanner and a chaos hero that had a sword that denied armor saves. I received the charge and he tried to use his champion to challenge my Hero to avoid the attacks on his BSB. I instead took the challenge with my own champion. So the chaos hero inflicted 2 wounds on the BSB and took him out. This particular HE BSB can roll a 5 or 6 and overkill any unit, no matter how hard it is.

Conclusion: A mage or BSB in the first rank of a unit is priority #1

DeathlessDraich
04-12-2007, 12:11
In addition to the many good suggestions can I add:

1) You should have had a BSB yourself - Slann*. Losing CR by 2 - a re-roll would have helped.

2) Lure the DP unit away from the main combat arena with a small unit of Skinks.

3) Concentrate on destroying the other units first which will be weaker. You should have more units than HE at your disposal, so this is very possible.

4) If you have no chance of luring the DP unit away then use a unit that can hold against them - *Slann BSB in a TempleGuard unit has a better than 90% chance of holding anything up for several rounds (except a Fear causing unit). Charging any HE cavalry is preferable if you have the static CR to back it up.

5) The Impact hits of a Stegadon, which many have suggested, is capricious and can be relied on only if it would significantly reduce numbers in the first round. Like (4) above it is the Stubborness of the Stegadon that helps.

p3990013
04-12-2007, 12:35
I just noticed you mention that magic is out of the question.

You have the best Mage in the game who is also a general and BSB.

A 2nd generation Slann with the appropriate items can take 5 spells from any lore he wishes. He can take 5 magic missiles (the 1st spell from each college) and cast them all in each magic phase (with the free power dice per spell he gets). Couple this with some skink priests who can be used as mediums from the Slann for casting his spells.

What else mage can cast 5 magic missiles in one turn without fear of miscast? You can practically eliminate all the enemy skirmishers and warmachines in the first 2 turns of the game.

Mordante
04-12-2007, 21:15
Just a few ideas:
Stegadon charging for impact hits.
Kroxigor - it seemed strange that you had no wounds from the kroxigor on the flank, they are born knight killers.
If you are using saurus, take spears. If you cannot get the charge, let him charge you, he gets to swing first anyway. The spearmen will add some attacks if the front rank dies. Champion should challenge to mitigate potential deaths.
BSB in the unit helps.
Jaguar charm scar vet character assassin!

Tutore
04-12-2007, 21:21
You didn't play bad, you only had bad luck. He had too many points in that unit, you could lure it with some cheap skink unit and avoid confrontation. Or kill it as you tried to, he only needed a 3 to lose combat.

n0gArd
04-12-2007, 21:45
a simple regiment of 4 kroxigors or your lord? whatever that is, assuming its a saurus old blood, giv him a GW and beat the crap out of his noble.
WS: 6, so hits on 4+, str: 7, wounds on 2+ and the noble wont even have a AS
vs that.

Even a scar veteran can kill him, a kroxigor anything, easily.

4 kroxigors: 13 attacks, lets say 6hits for making it easy, 5 wounds, then the dragon princes will most likely save 1 wound, so they easily kills 4-5 dragon princes on 1 turn, or put 4-5 attacks on the noble and he is dead meat. Lizardmen has a lot of hard-hitting ****.

Take the item: "Bane Head" and nominate his noble.

item: "blood statuete of spite also works nicely"

Take a unit of 3 kroxigors + a scar-veteran with GW (or any other character), put a unit of skinks infront of the kroxigors, (giv the item: "Gleming pendant of chotec" to the character) let him charge your skins, kill them and overun into the kroxigors + character. when it then becomes your turn he is smiling thinking his dragonprinces has str 5 from charge and 10000attacks, use the pendant and you will have 3kroxigors: 10 str 7 attacks + a veteran with 4 str 7 attacks (which attacks first), beating the hell out of him.

in avg that will make up: 7hits, 6wounds. and he will save 1 of these 6. result: (in average) 5 dead dragon princes. that item is a nice suprise. (it makes enemy attack last, not you strike first, so the ASF rule wont work).

Semi_Bunny
04-12-2007, 22:28
Well in regards to the slann, it was a 1500 point battle so i couldnt bring a lord, but when we usually play 2k point battles i bring a 4th gen slann but no TG. Against my friends usual plethora of mages (2 or 3, sometimes techlis too), the slann doesnt end up getting off too many spells, but in the same respect doesnt let through many of them. This is why i say magic is out of the question as he will most likely be dispelling unless i get irresistable force. I dont plan on changing my armylist completely just for his DPs by adding TG or making the slann 2nd generation, but based on the sugestions I might make a few minor changes. To the spears idea, I usually tend not to take spears as they never end up being worth their point value, as many lizardmen players might agree. Lastly, in regards to n0gArds idea, the gleaming pendant of chotec only works if the high elf player rolls a 1-3 when the item is used. This could essentially be wasted points. I also tend to use my scar vet as a war machine/chariot hunter, but the kroxigor idea might work out well provided they get the charge.

Flypaper
05-12-2007, 05:07
- Don't count on holding a charge with anything but Temple Guard.

- Position Kroxigors (and to a lesser extent JSoDs) opposite them to keep 'em nervous.

- Try to pull them away from the rest of the army, then swamp them... Don't charge in with Skinks, though - even on the flank they'll probably bounce.

smileyface
05-12-2007, 18:28
The next turn, I charged him with my saurus and my kroxigors on the flank thinking I would beat him with the flank charge, outnumber, and outrank. Of course his good ol' always strike first put the smack on a few of my saurus but I managed to kill 2 of his 5 dragon princes but not the noble. This gave me a 6 for combat resolution (2 wounds, 2 ranks, flank charge, outnumber), and he killed about 2 saurus (since i charged he only had st3) giving me 4 more than him. Then he pulls this battle standard out of no where (well not literally it was on his noble) that adds d6 to his combat resolution and he rolls a 6. This puts his resolution at 8, and with my luck I fail both leadership tests,

Ah, it's not dragon princes that are the problem. It's the magic flag of combat winning.

In order to have the magic flag, he needs to field a BSB. This model has a standard elf toughness, a standard 2 wounds, and at best a 2+ save (he's a BSB and he's carrying a magic flag, so he can't take other magic items). This means he is basically exactly as difficult to kill as two dragon princes, but is worth a lot more. So you should direct all the attacks you can at him. If you can get two kroxigor in base contact they should kill him in a single round. A hero with a GW might manage it in a round but does average at more than one. Even basic saurus should go for him if they can - sometimes you get lucky, and since he's only as hard to kill as the unit around him, it's always worth doing.

Without changing your list, one thing that should work is keep shooting the princes until the BSB is on the units flank, then get the kroxigor in that flank. Three of them should get in base contact which usually means one dead elf. Two wounds inflicted plus flank plus outnumber means the elves will probably autobreak.