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View Full Version : Nerfing Carnies and Ghostlairds.



Hideous Loon
16-09-2005, 20:39
Hello all. I thought of something the other day. What if you could remake the rules for the Carnifex and the Wraithlord to be something resembling Dreadnoughts? With Armour Values? It'd make sense, if you shoot at a Wraithlord with a Lascannon, chances are that you might hit a leg, which would get smashed. But, as it is now, the 'Lord just keeps on walking. Or hit his hand with your Railgun/whatever. Then, it'd count as "weapon destroyed". Likewise with the Carnifex (did you know that it means "butcher" in Ancient Latin?). If you hit and destroy its Venom Cannon, all it does is cause a platry wound. Now, if it had an AV, say 13 12 10, it'd be more realistic. A "crew stunned" result would simply count as, due to impact, the creature is too disoriented to shoot this turn or something.

What do you think? Is it a good idea? Are my rantings actually saying something to you? Or is it just a load of Grox dung? :D

DaR
16-09-2005, 23:20
I would say that neither the Carnifex nor the Wraithlord needs to be nerfed. There are already plenty of things in the game that can deal with them quite effectively, such as sniper rifles and force weapons. Turning them into vehicles would make them immune to those, for one.

And, sadly, due to the way the 40k rules work, it would make them substantially less durable, which does not fit at all. The fact that vehicles like Land Raiders, which supposedly last for millenia can be destroyed by one single lucky autocannon shot always sat poorly with me.

The Carnifex is pretty much fine the way it is. They're hard to kill, but this is balanced out by them being both expensive and forced into being either good at assault or good at shooting, but not both. The Wraithlord, really only needs a modest increase in point cost to be well balanced. Perhaps bring it down to T7, so that S4 weapons stand a chance to wound it, but that's really it.

-DaR

Angelripper
17-09-2005, 13:59
I personally never faced a Wraithlord on the Battlefield but Carnies and they never worried me. Ok they are big and nasty especially when you field tiny little cloven-hoofed Tau but as nasty as theysound they got some disadvantages that make them quiete balanced.
A nid force with theese biggies is quite slow at least one synapse creature must be in range or they just stand still, look quite dull into landscape and fire with bs 2 or 3 at best. Good instant kill doesn't concern Nids but a few well placed Railguns or Hunter Killer Missiles and bye-bye- Carnie . Space Marines use the Lascannon and Guards do the same. I think every race got something to deal with them. giving them an amour value such as the dreadnought let them die to easily. Drop some Firewarriors behind them and they are toast, worked fine with Dreadnoughts for me.

Just my two cents

Hideous Loon
19-09-2005, 20:07
Okay, so I was voted down. No biggie. I'll just have to find some other way to undercover spam.

Rabid Bunny 666
19-09-2005, 21:32
the colour black is your friend ;)

fine as they are, stuff like snipers, force weapons and plagueswords, as well as a handful of attacks can drag down a 'fex, and if you let a wraithlord into combat, you did something wrong

lord_blackfang
19-09-2005, 21:54
Carnifex means "meat-maker" in latin...


It's also the name of a small, rather cute amphibian.

http://www.zrs-kp.si/projekti/life/Novice/Fotke/3-KR_veliki-pupek_Triturus-carnifex.jpg

Hideous Loon
20-09-2005, 12:44
That's a great idea, Nurglitch! That was what I (sorta...) was aiming for in the first place. But then, what happens if you roll a 6? Won't the whole thing (Carnie, Ghostlaird, Daemon Prince) just go up in flames? And is that very fluffy to do?

Hideous Loon
20-09-2005, 16:37
Yeah, but still... The notion of a Ghostlaird (ANNOUNCEMENT: This is the new name for Wraithlords, everyone. Use it at all times, even in your GT-official armylists.) exploding is too good to pass up. The problem is that, when a lascannon hits a Great Knarloc (or whatever...), it's as likely to just blast off a leg or the big crossbow on top, instead of the more likely head or torso, which would kill it. That isn't as good as I thought. On the other hand, you could still include the original instakill rules set to represent those situations.

Hideous Loon
20-09-2005, 20:31
Sigh. If you use the rules that you suggested (eg, roll on Glancing hit table for wounding Monstrous Creatures), then a lascannon shot, aimed at a Ghostlaird, has an equal chance hitting a leg, rendering him immobile, as hitting his head, rendering him dead. The keeping of instakill rules was just something I pulled out of thin air just then, ignore that. It was a simple matter of posting before thinking. Apologies.

Hideous Loon
20-09-2005, 21:20
Yeah, but what if the Monstrous Creature in question (the Avatar, for example) doesn't have a weapon per se? Then one would just re-roll results of "Weapon Destroyed", would one not?

Hideous Loon
21-09-2005, 07:19
Oh. Then all is well, I suppose. (I only have the 3d edition BGB, might have to get the new one anytime soon.)

Unseeing Eye
21-09-2005, 08:02
Oh. Then all is well, I suppose. (I only have the 3d edition BGB, might have to get the new one anytime soon.)

Thats technically a BBB. ;) I do feel that these 'not-really' vehicles are a bit powerfull...this might be a good way to solve it.

Bea IC
21-09-2005, 16:49
Hello all. I thought of something the other day. What if you could remake the rules for the Carnifex and the Wraithlord to be something resembling Dreadnoughts? With Armour Values? It'd make sense, if you shoot at a Wraithlord with a Lascannon, chances are that you might hit a leg, which would get smashed.

You can do that, but to be consistent and youíd have to make similar rules for all models (guardsmen, space marines, guardians etc) because it makes as much sense for them to suffer from this rule as the big guys.

They should make vehicles better. Tanks should be able to withstand at least as much as a Wraithlord or Carnifex. And i like to eat food.

Hideous Loon
21-09-2005, 17:11
But that wouldn't make sense, since a Carnifex is quite a bit larger than a Guardsman. Therefore, you can target different parts of it, like the leg or the head. On a Guardsman, from such a distance, it's more difficult to do that, since he's smaller. I know, the Marineses and Taus have fancy targetting equipment, but then they would all have to be Sharpshooters, wouldn't they? Hmm?

Bea IC
21-09-2005, 18:40
But if a guardsman is hit, some part of him (head, armÖ) has to suffer the consequences. Even if you where not deliberately shooting his leg your bullet could end up there anyway.

Thatís how the vehicle rules currently work: You donít shoot at the tracks of the tank, but you can still hit them.

I like the simple rules we have now, although the vehicle rules are a joke and the assault rules could use some tweaking.

Hideous Loon
21-09-2005, 19:11
I have to agree with you on this one. It would be horrendously complicated to use the Vehicle rules, silly as though they may be, on every single model. But using them on big models (I imagine that the 40mm base or larger could be a guideline, so Ogryns would be affected) is fairly fluffy, is it not?

Bea IC
21-09-2005, 19:59
I donít know what fluff has to do with this, but yeah, it would work better with only the biggest guys and vehicles.

Still, I donít really like the idea, but I guess its personal tasteÖ