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fubukii
04-12-2007, 10:29
2000 Pts - High Elves Roster - Unnamed

Archmage (1#, 355 Pts)
1 Archmage @ 355 Pts
General; Level 4 Upgrade; Hand Weapon
1 Dispel Scroll
1 The Seerstaff of Saphery
1 Folariath's Robe

Noble (1#, 143 Pts)
1 Noble (Battle Standard Bearer) @ 143 Pts
Hand Weapon; Great Weapon; Battle Standard Bearer
1 Armour of Caledor

Mage (1#, 185 Pts)
1 Mage @ 185 Pts
Level 2 Upgrade; Hand Weapon
1 Dispel Scroll @ [20] Pts
1 Sacred Incense

Archers (10#, 110 Pts)
10 Archers @ 110 Pts
Hand Weapon; Longbow

Archers (10#, 110 Pts)
10 Archers @ 110 Pts
Hand Weapon; Longbow

Spearmen (19#, 196 Pts)
18 Spearmen @ 196 Pts
Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Spear; Light Armour; Shield
1 Sentinel
Hand Weapon; Spear; Light Armour; Shield

White Lions of Chrace (13#, 213 Pts)
12 White Lions of Chrace @ 213 Pts
Musician Mus; Hand Weapon; Great Weapon; Heavy Armour; Stubborn
1 Guardian
Hand Weapon; Great Weapon; Heavy Armour

White Lions of Chrace (14#, 238 Pts)
13 White Lions of Chrace @ 238 Pts
Musician Mus; Hand Weapon; Great Weapon; Heavy Armour; Stubborn
1 Guardian
Hand Weapon; Great Weapon; Heavy Armour
1 The Gem of Courage @ [10] Pts

Dragon Princes (5#, 150 Pts)
5 Dragon Princes of Caledor @ 150 Pts
Barding; Hand Weapon; Lance; Dragon Armour; Shield
5 Elven Steed

Great Eagle (1#, 50 Pts)
1 Great Eagle @ 50 Pts
Flyer

Great Eagle (1#, 50 Pts)
1 Great Eagle @ 50 Pts
Flyer

Repeater Bolt Thrower (3#, 100 Pts)
1 Repeater Bolt Thrower @ 100 Pts
Repeater Bolt Thrower
2 Crew @ [0] Pts
Hand Weapon; Light Armour

Repeater Bolt Thrower (3#, 100 Pts)
1 Repeater Bolt Thrower @ 100 Pts
Repeater Bolt Thrower
2 Crew @ [0] Pts
Hand Weapon; Light Armour

Total Roster Cost: 2000

fubukii
05-12-2007, 02:20
no advice no input or edits i must be a good list maker ;P

Fate
05-12-2007, 02:33
Well, you're wasting one character for starters and if you're going magic my advice is either 4 mages or if you really deem necessary a non magic character, at least don't make a BSB out of it, he has no combat support.

The spearmen look cool cause they fight in 3 ranks, but really, Str3? you don't need them. Special when you can field 6 special units.

White lions are good cause they strike at Str 6, but even so, a drop to Str 5 in exchange for 2 attacks might be better, also your champions have 25 points on magic items, might be good to think about it. Forget the swords, think of things like the skeinsliver.

The dragon princes are your best unit, i'd at least give it full comand, the ellyrian banner and magic attacks.

Great eagles are nice for warmachine hunting, but really, you're 10 times better off with a bolt thrower. That's cause a bolt thrower can kill warmachines with multiple shoots (kill the crew) and also deal with mostly anything while the eagles... Well they hunt warmachines and that's it.

fubukii
05-12-2007, 02:55
the bsb is a solid fighty character 3 str 6 attacks with soa why not its 25pts for a extra +1 combat rez and reroll failled break tests. the spears are joined by the bsb to give them some punch.

In addition swordmasters while they look great on paper, lack move through wood, lack stubborn, lack the 3+ save vs shooting, lack str 6 sure str 5 is great at mangling infantry that is toughness 3 but once they fight some stronger troops or missle fire you will wish u had white lions or phoenix guard. 8 pd seems like a good amount to me :/

Eagles are also amazing at redirecting enemy units.

Fate
05-12-2007, 11:39
What i mean is that strong unit, lets say, chosen chaos knights of khorne or grail knights, even dragon ogres. They charge your spearmen and there is not a thing your BSB will do about it, I'd rather have a character on the DP with a star lance for example.

The swordsman are not there to go after enemies, they sit near the bolt throwers waiting for the enemy to come, if you put them nicely enough, the enemy wont be able to charge the bolt throwers, even if they fly.
If the enemy has shooting, no problem, magic will take care of that with the help of bolt throwers.

Eagle do not redirect enemy units, unless you mean enemy ranged unit which may fire against them if they have no other priority, but if they fire against them, they die quickly. They are really only good for warmachine hunting and that's if you don't have a bit of bad luck, i had a cannon crew once killing an eagle after 4 rounds of combat.

For last 8 power dice look nice, but that's if the enemy only brings one mage with 2 dispel scrolls, it will be enough then. But if the enemy brings 2 mages with 4 dispell scrolls, your magic won't work. I'd advise 4 mages, some bound spells, the jewel of dusk and the banner of sorcery, that way you have between 14 and 16 power dice plus bound spells and that will have your enemy on the run.

fubukii
05-12-2007, 23:40
4 mages is way to many points :/ and yes eagles are great at at redirecting ranked units and non skirmishers., just fly it in front on a angle and now they have to charge ur eagle or move out of the way, you also march block with it.

Unwise
05-12-2007, 23:46
I have to disagree on most points with Fate, maybe we play in different styles.

I think the BSB looks good, that is the guy that I use too. 3 s6 ASF attacks with 2+ save is rather nice for BSB. I normally put him with spearmen, as if they are charged by something with decent armor save his high str attacks will be needed. I normally have a good sized unit with a warbanner in it. This gives a starting CR of +7 and I strike first with 22 str 3 attacks and 3 st 6 attacks.

I also find that the enemy put alot of attacks against the BSB since they fear he might have the Battlebanner and they are in the mindset of BSBs having no protection. This helps waste alot of their CR as most attacks bounce off the 2+ save.

Fubukil is right about eagles being amazing at redirecting charges. For 50 points you can turn an enemy unit almost 90 degrees, making them present their flank to something nasty. Even without the following flank charge, the simple act of both march blocking and making the enemy spend time turning back around is devestating to their battle line.

Last night I played against Khorne and my eagles were my MVPs. They march blocked, baited then fled, then sacrificed themselves for redirected charges. One led a chariot into a hill destroying it and one simply forced a charge and overrun which took a unit the wrong way so it did not reach the battle before it was too late.

A few things you might want to invest in:
- Lion standard for a unit of WL. Fear is the bane of stubborn units.
- Warbanner on the spears
- 6 DPs rather than 5. Most units will allow 6 to get into combat and you need as much killiness on the charge as possible. Also this allows for them to take a casualty without becoming gimp.
- Korhil, apart from being fluffy, he is fairly cheap and will make your spearmen stubborn. This would give you 3 stubborn units all rerolling on 9 leadership.
- Gem of Courage for the spearmen rather than the WL (via the BSB). As you have to declare you are using it before the roll, it can be wasted on WL as you may think they will be ok and not use it. If you don't take the Korhil suggestion though, the spearmen will become the weak link leadership wise, so could benefit from the gem.
- Banner of sorcery.

A few possible places to get more points:
- Trade the archmage for a mage.
- If that is not enough magic for you give a WL unit the banner of sorcery. You end up with the same amount of power dice for much less cost.
- Drop an archer unit. Most things for 110 points will do more than 10 archers.
- Drop the sacred incense. WL have a 3+ shooting resistence and spearmen are your cheapest unit so are not normally targets. You can always use the 5+ ward spell on the spears if it becomes a problem.

Additionally, this army was stated as being somewhat friendly, so I really don't think that 4 mages with 15 average powerdice is appropriate. Even in a tournament setting that would score badly for sportsmanship.

Fate
06-12-2007, 03:01
I belive that people missunderstand sportmanship, it means good behavior in game, not making things like overguess, letting the opponent do something he forgot.

Now people give bad spotmanship to people who bring a good list? I simply don't understand what is so unsporting about that, if you're going to a tournament, it's to win, of course it's to have fun too, but winning is the major goal on a tournament.

Now on the mage isue, yes, the way i use mages takes me 890 pts in just 4 models, but havoc they cause on the battlefield, it's more than worth it.

Now about units that are frenzy, yes, they can be a pain in the ass as they can then redirect charges, but from my gaming experience i can tell they usually do not survi long and won't do much either, however the armies i play with and against are army which, like mine, are always as cheesy as possible, from my point of view (and most people i play with) a good general is the one who will bring the means to victory.

The BSB is not such a good choice if you're going magic and then you need as much dice and casters as possible, but if a character for combat is really necessary i'd put a normal character on a unit of 5 DP with the ellyrian banner and also give magic attacks to the units. as to maximise it's potential.
Really, one CR is good, but not as good as a character that will kill mostly anything that stand. A good enemy is a dead enemy i always say.

Also i feel like the Sword Masters are better than other units, although they are less protected they also have 2 attacks and if well placed they can protect bolt throwers even against fliers without even blocking LOS.

fubukii
06-12-2007, 17:02
what i fail to see is what is more killy other then a star lance on a noble then a gw? its 3 str 6 attacks thats alot of power, especially when always going first. the str 7 from the star lance doesnt even matter most of the time as most troops are toughness 3-4 and would get wounded on a 2+ and the strength mod would reduce their save to be poor unless they are very well armored (like chosen chaos knights, but why am i not shooting them with bolt throwers? or blocking their path with my eagles? or Hitting them with lore of metal magic?)

happy_doctor
06-12-2007, 17:58
I like the list! It's pretty much a list that participates in all the phases and makes for an interesting game against most opponents!

Some minor changes I'd make (I've been playing against H.Elves a lot since the new book came out...must be a trend!)

-Change the Seerstaff for the Silver wand..It's pretty much the same thing, only 20 points less. (getting 5 spells will most definitely net you some very useful ones!)

-Get your White Lions a standard! The +1 to CR will come in handy, and they're not likely to flee and give your opponent that bonus +100 VP anyway!

-Sacred Insense seems a bit off, since your white lions already have protection from shooting and the spearmen don't need it (you're better off adding 3-4 spearmen to the unit, if you aske me)

-Folraith's robe is nice, will protect your mage, but so will his careful placement and the countering of mage-hunters... Still, another item i'd swap for something else.. Maybe the ring of fury?Maybe a banner of Sorcery?

-Dragon princes, as said eralier, work best in units of 6.

-Would you consider swapping a unit of archers for a unit of Shadow warriors? From what i've seen, they are really nice and tend to work wonders!

Overall, as i said in the beginning, a solid list!

Fate
07-12-2007, 02:51
Well, perhaps it's because i play against things which save at 2+ or 1+, or have a high toughness and multiple wounds, apart from that only flying units, but i'm not expecting to catch them with the noble anyway. Also a noble that is not a BSB has a better AS, specially if on horse which improves his chances of survival.

Also the pretty bolt throwers, however good they are, have better targets. Like that incoming dragon with whatever's riding it, or even maybe those lil' cannon on the background that can blast your warmachines away.

fubukii
07-12-2007, 12:15
i guess you fail to realize my bsb has a 2+ armor save :/ the same as if he was mounted with full barding :)

Now if im fighting chosen knights and a dragon i know that he only has like 2 units in his army the choice is simple, use eagles to bait knights kill dragon with shooting and magic :)

as for the point of the shadow warriors i may do that, early game march blocking could be nice, and worst come to worse their hatred can come useful in dispacting warmachines along with the eagles aid. ok i made asome minor revisions to the list, i could not find the resources to fit in a banner of sorc sadly but here is what i came up with after some tweaking,

Notable changes - dropped the following, seerstaff, 10 archers, foriaths robe, sacred incense 1 white lion
added the following - ring of fury, silver wand seerstaff on lvl 2, banners on the lions, a extra dragon prince, 6 shadow warriors, gem of courage on the bsb.

2000 Pts - High Elves Roster - Unnamed

Archmage (1#, 330 Pts)
1 Archmage @ 330 Pts
General; Level 4 Upgrade; Hand Weapon
1 Dispel Scroll
1 Silver Wand
1 Ring of Fury

Noble (1#, 153 Pts)
1 Noble (Battle Standard Bearer) @ 153 Pts
Hand Weapon; Great Weapon; Battle Standard Bearer
1 Armour of Caledor
1 The Gem of Courage

Mage (1#, 185 Pts)
1 Mage @ 185 Pts
Level 2 Upgrade; Hand Weapon
1 Dispel Scroll
1 The Seerstaff of Saphery

Archers (10#, 110 Pts)
10 Archers @ 110 Pts
Hand Weapon; Longbow

Spearmen (19#, 196 Pts)
18 Spearmen @ 196 Pts
Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Spear; Light Armour; Shield
1 Sentinel
Hand Weapon; Spear; Light Armour; Shield

White Lions of Chrace (13#, 225 Pts)
12 White Lions of Chrace @ 225 Pts
Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Great Weapon; Heavy Armour; Stubborn
1 Guardian
Hand Weapon; Great Weapon; Heavy Armour

White Lions of Chrace (13#, 225 Pts)
12 White Lions of Chrace @ 225 Pts
Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Great Weapon; Heavy Armour; Stubborn
1 Guardian
Hand Weapon; Great Weapon; Heavy Armour

Dragon Princes (6#, 180 Pts)
6 Dragon Princes of Caledor @ 180 Pts
Barding; Hand Weapon; Lance; Dragon Armour; Shield
6 Elven Steed @ [0] Pts

Great Eagle (1#, 50 Pts)
1 Great Eagle @ 50 Pts
Flyer

Great Eagle (1#, 50 Pts)
1 Great Eagle @ 50 Pts
Flyer

Repeater Bolt Thrower (3#, 100 Pts)
1 Repeater Bolt Thrower @ 100 Pts
Repeater Bolt Thrower
2 Crew @ [0] Pts
Hand Weapon; Light Armour

Repeater Bolt Thrower (3#, 100 Pts)
1 Repeater Bolt Thrower @ 100 Pts
Repeater Bolt Thrower
2 Crew @ [0] Pts
Hand Weapon; Light Armour

Shadow Warriors (6#, 96 Pts)
6 Shadow Warriors @ 96 Pts
Hand Weapon; Longbow; Light Armour; Scouts; Skirmishers

Total Roster Cost: 2000

azindal
07-12-2007, 20:42
Your revised list is a well balanced force :)
With 8 PD, 5DD & 2 scrolls, its not magic heavy.
But as most of your units are quite hard hitting i boubt a magic heavy force would be able to stand up to that punnishment.

Just out of curiosity is your spearelf unit 18 strong becuase you are fielding them 3x6 or 4x5 with your BSB & mage in there?

Fate
08-12-2007, 02:40
I don't know if it's just of me, but you're still with one character left and from my point of view 8 dices are not enough.

Also tell me how are the eagles going to make a dragon charge them? he just completly ignores them, same goes for chaos knights (look, a warmachine, oh, there is an eagle there, lets charge it.... NOT). If somehow the eagle is in front of them to stop the charge, then you charge it, it lfees and you redirect the charge.

Also the usual chaos player i play with has the dragon, furies, screamers, beastmen, chaos knights.

He has also 11 power dice and a bound spell.


Anyway, for magic go with 4 mages and as many dice, cause you really need it, course 4 bolt throwers are gold.

fubukii
08-12-2007, 12:27
As: the unit is actually 19 strong, the mage and the bsb will both join the unit making a 21 strong unit (7x3), and the white lions are 13 man strong as well (7x6). It is confusing but it means there are 18 spearelves and 1 champion totaling for 19, sorry about the mix up.

fate: ok for some reason you must have never seen redirect tactics, but i shall explain it (plz bare in mind i suck with ms paint and the distances are not to scale.)

Here is a situation where we have a eagle and some lovely high elf ranked unit (could be any friendly high elf unit) In this case though i used spearmen because i wanted to keep it simple, who have wandered upon a enemy unit seen here:

http://img452.imageshack.us/img452/4962/redirectingkf7.jpg

Now this is where it does get somewhat tricky the goal is with your eagle to put him at a angle in front of the enemy unit where you deny them the charge on your spearmen and if they so choose to charge you eagle have to wheel at a angle to line up with the eagle in which case you flee and they continue to chase the eagle at that angle and fail their charge (note in some cases they could catch your eagle or you may want them to over run it all depends on the postioning of your units, and how far they move etc). Now im going to attempt to draw another diagram seen here showing what i mean (hopefully ^.^) (note this does not work against flyers, only things with ground movement that have to wheel) (note2 it is not as effective vs skirmishers but with pratice can be done sucessfully.)

http://img399.imageshack.us/img399/1866/redirectingpart2xi5.jpg
http://img378.imageshack.us/img378/7313/redirectingpart3fl0.jpg

ANd there you have it with some poorly drawn pictures to boot :). In addition since its your turn when the eagle is moved into place you can even manuever the spears at a angle predicting your redirects. the most common place you will see this tactic in use is in skaven tournament armies where the checker board deployment is used. THe entire tactic of this army is based off of redirecting charges with cheap slave units then flanking with clanrats, all while hitting the enemy with some magic, some shooting, and killing their mages and warmachines with tunnel teams. For gigglesi will show a typical checker board deployment:

http://img360.imageshack.us/img360/1111/checkerwv8.jpg

Now this setup is extremely useful because they can not charge you clanrats because the slaves will be able to flank you before you can get in range of them, in addtion the slaves are great throw away units and can be used to redirect charges to expose flanks (see diagram 1,2 and 3 for further details.)