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View Full Version : A question of flying mounts and cheese.



mistformsquirrel
04-12-2007, 12:40
Alrighty... I know this is going to be subjective, and might just open up a nasty can of worms... but I'm hoping this can be a relatively straightforward thread just the same.

I was thinking today about just how cool Great Eagles are, and more to the point, how utterly spiffy characters riding them look. However, I've heard many a call of "Flying circus", normally leveled at Brettonians; and so I need some opinions.

The main thrust of the question is this:

Would you consider 3 Wood Elves (A highborn and 2 nobles) mounted on Great Eagles, accompanies by 3 groups of 3 Warhawk riders to be "Cheese"?

I know its a heck of a lot of flying units; but its the image that's appealing to me right now more than anything, and being inexperienced, I don't want to get my hopes up that such a list would be perfectly balanced until I can know for sure. Obviously opinions will differ, but typically I find a vein of thought tends to run through the proceedings and that's what I'm looking to find.

So would a list like that, with everything else consisting primarily of Glade Guard, Waywatchers, Wardancers and a few Glade Riders, be considered 'cheese', or could it be done right without making my opponent want to punch me? (Note: No trees spirits, they just don't do a darn thing for me frankly)

Bernardinatti
04-12-2007, 12:52
Hell, i'd be more than happy to play you. But then i'm a real hater of the term cheese or anyone who gripes about army composition not being what they believe is "balanced"....because no matter what army you build or paint or bring....the Dice Gods(tm) will bring it all to balance...

So ultimately its just whether that army would work in practice or would suffer not being able to face rank and file troops very effectively...but since its wood elves i believe you would be able to compensate in other ways.

But i say go for it!

Xzazzarai
04-12-2007, 13:06
What's considered cheesy is depening on what force you are using yourself.
If you have a shooty army, I don't think that all those eagles and hwks will be flying around for long. How ever, if you face... let's say VC, the player prolly goes ballistic cuz he can't do a thing to cath your birds.

I for one don't like to play against lists with pretty much 2-3 types of units... But I wouldn't complain very much on that list. Try it! =)

As a foot-note, I don't think there is anything cheesy, just things your own list/tactics have some major issues to deal with, which tends to make some ppl cry cheeese all over the place.
But then, you don't to optimize your army, just beacuse of what I just said. Even if I don't find anything chessy, I don't say that I'd gladly play against anything...

theunwantedbeing
04-12-2007, 13:07
Nothing wrong with it.
Although it can be classed as an "annoying" army to face in some respects so make sure it's properly painted and that you are a good sport when playing (which you should be anyway but it needs to be said).

If you are a nice enough player and your army looks nice enough you can get away with bringing a gunline and shooting the other guy off the table in 2 turns.
You being a nice guy is dependant on how well your opponent feels they are being treated, not how well you think you are treating them.

Cheese is just a result of your opponent feeling unfairly treated and not getting what they wanted out of a game (which is usually to win).

How big would these units be?
Your looking at near 500 for the 3 character's and an additional 350+ for even small units of warhawk riders.
Remember that the great eagle mounted character's cannot "join" the unit, they can merely fly near them due to being on flying mounts.

In 1500point army I can see that as being considered especially cheesy, although move to 2k and its much less so.

the anti santa
04-12-2007, 13:42
Well seeing as how the Pegasus Knights have an extra point of toughness, 3 more pips of armour (+the ward save), lances rather than spears, an extra attack on the steeds and a free champion all for 15 extra points. I wouldn't consider that army to be cheese.

If anything warhawks are quite weak and often struggle to make their points back as they can't do a lot to ranked units. They are quite expensive money wise too.

So anyone complaining about cheese is quite silly, Wind Rider Kindreds are mentioned in the rulebook so are well within the background of Wood Elves.

Considering the rest of your army seems to be mostly made up of "normal" elves and no tree spirits I don't see it as being unfair at all, you'll have to watch for magic, 1 fireball could cost you a unit or character and the army will require real skill to use well.

Low magic chaos will hate you though :D

mistformsquirrel
04-12-2007, 13:46
True that, true that <,<

I'm thinking I'll build a "normal" Elf-only Wood Elf army, then add the Windrider Kindred later. Like the basic army will start at 2000pts with a Highborn on Eagle and 3 Warhawks, but later after I've gotten used to things, I'll add the extra. I love playing around with stuff, and this seemed like a particularly interesting and cool direction. I especially like the idea of having them flying around popping off arrows left and right, circling the enemy regiments being a royal pain in the tail, then once they finally get close to my Glade Guard, charging them right in the rear. (Imagine the old Tom and Jerry cartoons, with the little mouse stabbing the big cat in the **** with a pin - Warhawk Riders with a spear, right in the rump!)

*edit* And I want to thank you all for helping me out. This forums' been a huge help to me, both as I built my first army (Chaos), and now as I finish that and begin to prepare for my second!

Sigmar help me I'm an addict!

Red_Duke
04-12-2007, 13:48
Heh, undead players (thats vamps or TK) would be loving that! minimal magic defense would have you being charged in the magic phase constantly, and torn to shreads. So by all means ;)

Against Chaos, id have thought the big problem would have been actually killing them and causing significant wounds - plus most armies have access to fliers which are capable of downing an eagle, leaving the character on top a tad exposed...

Agreed with Anti-Santa on Pegasus Knights - now theres a REAL flying circus

Preacher
03-01-2008, 14:21
I am currently building a "Sethalya" style list. Sethalya is the warhawk kindred(its a little box in the codex). In my 1500 pt list I have
A noble on a eagle, 3 units of 4 warhawks, 3 units of 5 gladeriders, 6 waywatchers and a scroll caddie. and an alter noble.

This list is a lot more effective then most people would think. Long bows have a 30" range so Bolt throwers arent really a big problem. Magic is so so. The three dice and scrolls have to last the first turn. Second turn Noble on eagle and warhawks charge enemy wizards and dispatch them.

This list is all about the movement phase. You shoot and thin the army down with everything you have and then charge flanks and rears in the later stages. Warhawk riders have the hit and run ability so they never stick around for combat resolution unless you want them to.

I have played against HE and DE. And did fine. no massacres but it is a tonne of fun to play. The DE had 2 bolt throwers 10 crossbow men and 2 mages. It resulted in a draw but it was the second time i used the list so I'm still a little shaky with it. Im not that worry about being shot at. In the case of dark elves I charge 20 they are at long range at anything past 12". I try to make them move to shoot so they are -1 for moving -1 for long range and if my opponent likes to gamble then -1 for double tapping.

It really is a fun list to play and I dont think its cheesy. Its not a powergaming type of list. It just fits the wood elf fluff and tactics to a tee. Fast movement and guerilla type warfare.

Try it out and you ll see.

logan054
03-01-2008, 14:49
Heh, undead players (thats vamps or TK) would be loving that! minimal magic defense would have you being charged in the magic phase constantly, and torn to shreads. So by all means ;)

Against Chaos, id have thought the big problem would have been actually killing them and causing significant wounds - plus most armies have access to fliers which are capable of downing an eagle, leaving the character on top a tad exposed...

Agreed with Anti-Santa on Pegasus Knights - now theres a REAL flying circus

I doubt chaos would have a major issue, spawn, magic missiles, beast herds, etc.

Disciple of Caliban
03-01-2008, 19:01
True that, true that <,<

I'm thinking I'll build a "normal" Elf-only Wood Elf army, then add the Windrider Kindred later.

Got to love a man with a plan. I did the same thing with my wild hunt army. Use the basic stuff to get you to 1500, then add 500pts of pure fun (eagles and hawks in your case, wild riders for me). Then since you have a 2k army for normal games you can buy loads of fun stuff for those times you fancy a change (like another unit of wild riders, and Orion!)

Good luck with the list, should be fun to use, if not to build (i hate gluing metal wings!)