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librerian_samae
04-12-2007, 14:24
Hi all, I have had the tombkings book for over a year now but have only just got down to seriously going through it in prperations for maybey starting an army of them.

Now the idea i really liked was the brief passage on old world cairn armys.
Great i thought Iv'e got my theme and some great modeling/painting ideas now on to the list...

...Unfortunately this is where I got very stuck, did a basic list thinking it wasnt that fancy untill i totted up the points and realised i was over 3000, thats without bulking up that much on skellies and with roughly 84 models!

Now i had always assumed that tomb kings were supposed to be a rather horde army? HaveIi got this wrong? or have I just compleatly missed the point in how to construct a viable tomb king army?

Any help or tips/ ideas would be much welcome.

Just to state that I being playing for quite some time and have not had this problem with any of my other armys, being lizardmen, brettonians and a few lists for elves of various stripes.

Red_Duke
04-12-2007, 15:28
Well, personally id consider them more of an elite army to be honest - thats certainly how i tend to play TK - VC tend to be more the horde army (especially as you can raise more of them), although of course VC work well as an elite army as well.

Generally id consider the base troops too expensive to use as a horde army, as you are pretty much forced to have a 'robust' magic phase (even more so than VC due to lack of ability to march). Standard 'competetive' lists tend to be thin on the ground on ranked units, with archers and perhaps chariots taking up core (if you have a King rather than a prince) and the only regularly seen 'ranked' infantry being Tomb Guard, with the rest of the army being taken up on liches, scorpions, perhaps ushabti, and catapults/casket.

Malorian
04-12-2007, 15:41
TK usually are character heavy and that's never a good good start if you want to be a horde. They are usually very elite but very tough.

In fanatasy they are the army I have the most trouble fighting against.

Esco Thomson
04-12-2007, 16:37
A common misconception is that Tomb Kings need to be character heavy(points-wise). A Tomb King army should have the maximum number of characters on most accounts, though you really don't need to "tool" them up a lot.

I would not classify them as a true "hoard" style army, however a defensive infantry hoard style list can be made effectively. I don't really classify them into any preexisting label, Tomb Kings are mainly a delicate balance of units, and as such I guess would be more akin to an "elite" force.

Danger Rat
04-12-2007, 20:09
All the tomb king armys i have faced have been elite armies, i don't think the horde approach would work with them because none of their units are cheap enough

Dragon Prince of Caledor
04-12-2007, 20:17
A skellie warrior is a lot of points definately not a hoard army. They need their elites like ushabti chariots horsemen catapults etc. tomb guard. Although their elites are not in the ranks of high elf elites they are elite because they are expensive unbreakable and come back from the dead!!! ps. make sure you have lots of magic! If a tomb kings player cant cast magic it will be rough for him... When I am able to dispel all tomb kings magic i crunc hthem. When he gets his magic off it becomes interesting;)

librerian_samae
05-12-2007, 08:07
Ah I see, so just going about it with a bit too many preconceptions form other undead armies.

Thanks for the help guys.

So fast small and hard hitting is the way to go then?

Lucky24/7
05-12-2007, 09:04
Yes defo. All Tk army should contain at least 1 unit of charriots..

Normall tactic is tar pit with expendable skellies (units of 12 are best I Find for leaving 1 model in contact.) then plow on in the side with unit of your choice be it usabti/ Scorpions/ Charriots.

Other good combos at 2K are the SS, CoS combo. adds magic and allows the lich preist on top to use his spell every turn:D

best moment ever is getting your casket off to snipe enermy warmachines as the crew are the only things that see them ... but hey thats me reminessing now :D

forgottenlor
05-12-2007, 09:08
The tomb kings army list is sort of like a clock. Every unit as its role in the army and they work well together. If you miss too much its not going to do well. You can probably read more elsewhere, but here is what I would say about how most pieces fuction:

Since you can't march, you need to deal with opposing archers and war machines forthis you have the scorpion/swarm/carrion.

Carrion also work well as march blockers.

Ranked skeletons are a perfect tarpit unit and in large units can hold an enemy up almost indefinately.

The giant, ushabti, and scorpions can kill things, but only ushabti can do so alone against ranked units, and so they work best fightning next to a ranked unit.

Anything with a bow is useful against light calvary, skirmishers and other light mobile units.

Chariots are very mobile and are good for flanks attacks.

Magic (pirests,casket) makes all the units better, while kings and princes add hitting power to any unit.

Tomb guard is pretty much the only unit of ranked infantry that actually can hope to win a batte without help, and they are pretty hard to kill.

Cavalry is not so important, but can be used as cheap flankers/decoy units/redirectors.

Catapults are also not necessary, but with magic, they can deal lots of damage (especially against armies with lots of ranked infantry like skaven and dwarves) and send enemy units into panic, and will drain your enemies dispel dice (since noone wants to see a war machine ifre twice in a round).

librerian_samae
05-12-2007, 09:25
Thanks thats a help.
Had already figured on the goodness that was carrion in the list what with no marching.

The suggestions are much apreciated.

I can see that i may have to try some varrying lists to try out all the ideas i want.:D

Red_Duke
05-12-2007, 11:01
Personally i go for scorpions for taking down warmachines and enemy shooting, as theyre still damn useful if you end up against say a bret army, or chaos - where swarms or carrion will be less useful. They also scare the pants off most opponents :D

Ranked skeletons 'can' be a tarpit, but don't expect them to take combined charges. Given the crumble effect, a couple of bret lances for instance, or god forbid a ranked unit in your flank, will see the unit pretty much dissappear in a turn.

Chariots are superb, especially being Light Cav - so you can easily set up flank charges with them, and then try to get the charge off in the magic phase.

librerian_samae
05-12-2007, 11:37
well so far I have decided on 6 carrion, 1 tomb scorp, 2 large skelly units one with banner of undying legion and a large unit of tombgaurd with icon of whos-it.
Oh and at least 8 chariots and a small 6 man 'heavy' cav unit.

Going with that im just deciding on characters, considering I want chariots i was thinking a Tk is a must then a few liche priests. beyond that no idea.

how do people think this will perform?

Also considering my theme I am a little unsure of the carrion (unless I can do some cool morigun conversion but then I would have to make them 3 strong).
Plus if I did this I may be able to fit in a bone giant modeled up like a huge animated stone henge!

So basicly whats the best character set up wehen using a TK and is it worth dropping carrion for a bone giant?

Red_Duke
05-12-2007, 12:26
The King has a couple of good setups actually - either on foot with a GW (or magic weapon) or in a chariot with a flail. Adds a nice bit of punch to the chariots, but then also pretty damn mean in a unit of skels or tomb guard. the standard that gives +1 to hit on first round of combat combined with the flail of skulls makes for a mean combo, and you can get some great overkill against champions and heroes.

Chariots id use in 2 groups btw.

Overall i think the list would suffer however, as theres nothing to make anyone come at you, and without marching youre using all your magic to get forward. personally ive always been keen on using catapults/COS combined with some archers to force the enemy fowards, 2-3 scorps to take out pretty much any warmachines/archers and then have either ushabti or tomb guard in the centre, with chariots working in a pincer movement on each flank to crush the enemy, which seems to work quite well. Given the flexibility of the chariots and scorps, the general plan is fairly open to adjustment pending on what the opponent turns up with.

Best thing to do with TK is decide what your battleplan is going to be, then take the units you need to achieve this. Unlike many armies, you really do need to have a gameplan, and a unit cohesion to achieve this - just taking anything that takes your fancy is generally pretty risky.

forgottenlor
05-12-2007, 17:16
I find an enemy will usually move towards you, unless they have more shooting than you do, and that's why tomb kings have carrions, swarms, and scorpions. I think the list needs some hitting power. Either a king and a prince and a second scorpion, or a king and a unit of Ushabti.

Rattlehead
05-12-2007, 20:52
Since you want a Tomb King in your army I suggest 3 lichies for heroes or you wont get off enough magic. Swap the heavy cav for a small unit of 5-6 light cav, and place one lichie on a steed with the staff of ravening in that unit.
The Flail of Sculls and the sacred eye standard is a great combo if your king is in a chariot as said above. Although if you think of placing him on foot then he should be with the TG armed with the destroyer of eternities and the collar of shapesh under the icon of rakaph. This will kill anyting and everything.

My biggest problem is usually lack of hitting power. I find that scorpions too often die from CR.. They are worth using though.. just don't expect them to be able to kill ranked units alone.
I usually also put aside bone giants to make room for the casket and the SSC. They hurt alot and the casket will help your magic phase.

librerian_samae
06-12-2007, 08:46
I wasnt too sure on the staff of ravenning, dosnt seem to be worth it for the points it takes up that could have been spent on more troops, the same with a third liche i just don't seem to have the room:(

Just done a roughed out army list and still seem to be over the points limit.

Not all that sure on light cav, as the 'heavy' does fit in nicely with other elements to do flank charges, I'm just not sure what 5 or 6 bow shots would be doing in an army with no other shooting :eyebrows:

Right I'm off to carry on this thread in the army lists section by posting my draft list might be more constructive.

Cherrio all and thanks for the help.

javaguru
07-12-2007, 22:06
The staff of Ravening is decent against low T troops and may draw out some dispel dice. Against T4 armies you may want to forgo it.

Gazak Blacktoof
07-12-2007, 22:26
When picking a tomb kings list you'll need to start with just the basics add it all up and then see what you've got room for.

I'd start with 3 characters with spell casting abilities (I try to avoid 4)
A ranked unit
A unit of chariots
A small unit of bowmen
A catapult
A unit of 3 carrion

That's the start of a balanced force that includes elements that can harass the enemy from turn 1 and try to draw out scrolls, which is crucial for making sure you can get off all the spells you need in the late game.

Where you go after that is up to you. Add more ranked units, more fast elements, more magic, swap out the carrion for a scorpion etc.

I've attached a sample list I've used with success previously.

You might need to play round with it a bit as its from 6th edition but it'll give you an idea of size and scope.
31400

EDIT: You can ignore the notations for main force, rear guard etc, they were for use with some Warhammer Players' Society scenarios we were using in our group at the time I wrote the list.