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RaZeR
04-12-2007, 17:23
Hi...
I vaguely know what I want this army to include, so please don't post massive wholesale changes. I'm well aware that everyone has different ideas for what's good and bad in chaos armies, so it's unlikely that we'd reach a consensus anyway :P
There are several questions I particularly want answered though, if possible, and they're at the end. For now, on with the list and vague fluff.

This is a 2 part army, and the fluff is not written up properly yet, so here's the bare bones of it:
The first part of the army is a large infantry-based warband of Slaanesh with two Sorcerers (Raska and Ulat) leading it. The sorcerers are brothers from the southern wastes of chaos, and have brought their warband 'The Brethren' in search of artifacts in Lustria. They have been joined by a small, fast-moving warband called the 'Dark Crawlers' led by an undivided champion known as Kvist the Reaper.

The Brethren

Exalted Chaos Sorcerer of Slaanesh (Raska) - 419
Level 4, Barded Chaos Steed, Spell Familiar, Chaos Daemon Sword
Joins:
24 Marauders - 193
Light Armour, Shield, Full Command

Chaos Sorcerer of Slaanesh (Ulat) - 165
Level 2, Dispel Scroll
Joins:
14 Chosen Chaos Warriors of Slaanesh - 388
Shield, Champion, Standard Bearer, Rapturous Standard

5 Mounted Daemonettes - 150

Dark Crawlers

Exalted Chaos Champion (Kvist) - 131
Great Weapon, Chaos Armour, Shield, Helm of Many Eyes
Mounted in:
1 Undivided Chaos Chariot - 120

1 Undivided Chaos Chariot - 120

7 Chaos Furies - 105

6 Marauder Horsemen - 120
Flail, Throwing Axes, Musician

5 Chaos Warhounds - 30

5 Chaos Warhounds - 30

5 Chaos Warhounds - 30

Casting Pool: 8
Dispel Pool: 5
Models in Army: 77
Total Points: 2001 (We generally allow 0.1% over the limit, so 2000pt armies can be up to 2002)

The Plan
The basic plan is to run the 2 large infantry blocks in the center, with the chariots and marauder horsemen on one flank, the mounted daemonettes on the other, the furies somewhere ready to attack war machines etc, and the hounds as screens.

The Questions

1) Is it worth giving the Exalted Sorcerer the Chaos Daemon Sword?
1)b) Should he have the talisman of protection with it?

2) He's on a chaos steed for the extra armour save, is that worth it?
2)b) Should he join the marauders anyway, or should he join the horsemen? (Or should I find points to put him on a daemonic mount and join the mounted daemonettes?)

3) Are the chosen worth it?

4) Am i putting too many eggs in 2 baskets with my 2 ~600 point infantry units?

5) Is 2 large infantry blocks enough at 2000 points?

6) Do I have enough counter-charging units?

Thanks!

Malorian
04-12-2007, 18:51
I like the list. I really like that the chariots don't have the mark to get the extra power dice (since it's a fluffy list)

1. Hell ya
1b. If you have the points, but in that big unit he should be fine
2. the steed is great for the save, but then he can be picked out by shooting
2b. I'd drop the horse and stay with the marauders
3. If used right then yes. Just don't let them get shot up.
4. Chaos is kinda like that, but you have a lot of other units too to help them
5. I usually see 4 or 5, but it depends on your style of play
6. Oh ya : )

RaZeR
04-12-2007, 19:06
It's a Slaanesh list, not Tzeentch, so they wouldn't get me extra power dice anyway :p
but thanks :)

I heard recently that the even mounted he couldn't be picked out by shooting when he was inside a unit? Not sure though, because i don't have the BRB here.

Malorian
04-12-2007, 19:13
hmmm maybe they got rid of that in the new book, I'd have to check.

If he can't be picked out I'd go for it, but if he can I wouldn't.

Belerophon709
04-12-2007, 22:33
Use it for what you will:

1.) It can be, have used the same setup myself, but I usually choose a more modest approach.
1b.) He has a 2+ AS when mounted, giving you a 5+ AS vs. S6 hits from the sword. I would go for a spell familiar instead to have a better chance of getting enrapturing spasms, which, coupled with the sword, is pure pleasure.
2.) Yes. He can't be picked out by shooting unless he is US5+ (including his mount) and/or the unit he is in has less than 5 RnF models, in which case regular missiles are randomized and he loses his 'Look out, Sir!'.
2b.) Both are (in my eyes) pretty poor choices as a bodyguard for your sorcerer, with the regular marauders being the lesser evil because of their higher US, since his immunity to psychology doesn't transfer to the unit. If the unit panics, Raska will run along with them. If you stay with the two infantry blocks, I would definately put Raska in with the warriors who are immune to psychology as well. As for joining the daemonettes, the rules on the matter are not quite clear. The rules for daemonic mounts and their riders can be interpreted in different ways, but Gav Thorpe (developer) has been quoted in the Direwolf FAQ saying that mortal characters mounted in this way without the chalice of chaos may NOT join daemonic units.
3.) Not really, no, but then again, neither are regular warriors. They do have their uses though, but in general warriors are too costly for what they do, especially compared to the other choices available to you. Yes, I'm thinking knights.
4.) Yes, you are. They're leaky baskets at that.
5.) Yes, it's 2 too many :D I generally perceive speed as the most important aspect of playing Slaanesh, and, let's face it, infantry just isn't speedy. I generally go with a low static CR but very fast Slaaneshi list. The speed coupled with one of the best magic-lores in the game makes up for it - most of the time anyway ;)
6.) Yeah, I generally like the setup of the Dark Crawlers. I would, however, take the champ out of the chariot and stick him in with the marauders if you choose to keep them.
If they get charged, in the front and escaped a challenge, he can dish out some serious pain before the enemy strikes, leaving them straggling to catch up to you static CR.
I would also lose the axes on the horsemen. They're 24 points you can put to better use elsewhere.


General comments not mentioned above:

I would lose the warriors altogether, exchange them for a unit of 6 chosen knights of pleasure with the rapturous standard. These boys ring in at less points than the warriors with just a standard and a musician. You won't need a champ here as your exalted will be there to kick behind ;) If you want to go with safety, you can include him of course, in which case the knights will be 2 points more expensive than the warriors - see above note on horsemen to free up more points.
I know that you don't want a radical change to your army, but the above is a necessity in my book, while the marauders can work with the exalted in the middle of the front rank, working in close cohesion with your chariots.
Losing the warriors leaves you with somewhat of a dilemma as Ulat loses his unit. However, tinkering a bit with your list, and you should be able to fit him in somewhere. Perhaps drop the marauders as well, free up a few more points and add a second knight unit to house him.

Hehe, I'll stop it here before I get too radical.


Good luck!

RaZeR
05-12-2007, 17:41
Thanks for the reply mate :)

I'm looking into changing the marauders etc around a bit, but I'm not sure i want 6 chosen knights with the exalted sorcerer, as that's about 800 points in 1 unit... I'll keep thinking about it!

As regards the exalted champion, I forgot to mention that he has to stay in his chariot, as I'm already part-way through converting the model and want to keep it, sorry!!

Belerophon709
05-12-2007, 18:10
A quick note on the exalted in the chariot. If you haven't already modelled the GW on him, leave it. He counts as mounted and will only receive a +1S bonus for wielding it.
I would consider giving him the berserker sword (counts the entire chariot base) and enchanted shield (the chariot save only helps him with regards to shooting/magic missiles), or, as an alternative setup, sword of might, armour of damnation and a shield.

Good luck!

Briohmar
05-12-2007, 18:49
I am in agreement about trading the warriors for knights. Add the exalted Sorceror to the unit as well. As for the second sorceror, Ulat, I find mine does very well in a chariot, it gives him a little mobility, some extra survivablility, and makes the Chariot US5 which means it can flank. One other thing you might want to consider for Ulat, drop the scroll, I know that's heresy, and drop 1 unit of hounds to get him a power familiar, the extra casting and dispell dice more than make up for the scroll, especially since Slaanesh Spells aren't that easy to cast. This effectively gives you three dice per magic phase to throw at three spells. This is really important to note. If the casting value is 7-10, you really want those three dice. Never ever try to cast titilating delusions with two dice, it'll never happen. Too many people fear that spell, and the odds are against it going off on 2 dice. That leaves your big block of marauders to fend for themselves a bit, but mine always seem to pull through somehow. It would mean coming up with an extra 10 points from somewhere to mark the chariot. As for the exalted champion on Chariot, either go with the Berserker sword (really awesome when using the larger chariot base, especially if some dumb fast cavalry comes and flanks you, thats 5 extra attacks hitting on 3's, wounding on 2's at S5., which means no saves as well, or just give him a Halberd. It does the same for S (+1) but you don't have that great weapon strikes last monkey hanging on your back, trust me against somethings you just don't want it.

If you go up to 2150, don't even monkey around with other ideas, throw two Fiends of Slaanesh on and you're there. They really are great for doing a lot.

As to your battle plan, don't get too rigid with it. You have six extremely flexible units, two Daemonic units move charge at 20", which means get them into the fight early, as they are extremely fragile. If you go with the knights, the same applies here, don't leave them out to be picked apart, they can truly hold their own against anything in the game, so let them go do what their supposed to do. If you stay with the warriors, well, it will take them until minimum turn tree to get into the fight, I personally like to be committed to killing on turn 2, but not a problem. They have some survivability, and I know from experience that even heavy cav will likely bounce off of them on a charge. I've seen 5 Silverhelms hit mine in the flank, and lose combat by three, but with the new edition, try not to let that happen, there's a big difference between 2+ AS and 3+ AS, especially when lances are in play.

I think that's enough for now. Hope The Dark Prince blesses your army as much as S/He has mine.

RaZeR
05-12-2007, 19:26
Hmm. I was afraid that GW might only be +1S in the chariot. Dammit! As regards strikes last, that's what the helm is for. I reckon that most people worry so much about chariots charging them that they'll tend to ignore the outrageous damage that character can dish out if they charge him... Plus it'll be great for chariot-on-chariot match-ups, although less so now that he's only S6 :p :( I'll look into other magic item combos though, some of those sound fun.

I reckon I'll leave the lvl2 sorcerer out of the chariot, although it's a fun idea briohmar. I don't want 2 out of my 3 characters to be in chariots, unless i go for a fully mounted(ish) list... plus if one of my chariots has to be sacrificed to save the other, I'd rather not have characters in both!

I'm looking into a few options at the moment, like putting in a unit of knights for my exalted, and trying to fit in another sorcerer. Things like that :P

Keep the advice coming though! ;)

RaZeR
05-12-2007, 19:42
Hmm. Sorry for double post, but how about these changes:

The Brethren

Exalted Chaos Sorcerer of Slaanesh (Raska) - 419
Level 4, Barded Chaos Steed, Spell Familiar, Chaos Daemon Sword
Joins:
5 Chosen Knights of Slaanesh - 345
Barding, Shield, Full Command Rapturous Standard

Chaos Sorcerer of Slaanesh (Ulat) - 190
Level 2, Power familiar
Joins:
14 Chosen Chaos Warriors of Slaanesh - 344
Shield, Full Command

5 Mounted Daemonettes - 150

Dark Crawlers

Exalted Chaos Champion (Kvist) - 142
Chaos Armour, Shield, Beserker Sword
Mounted in:
1 Undivided Chaos Chariot - 120

1 Undivided Chaos Chariot - 120

7 Chaos Furies - 105

5 Chaos Warhounds - 30

5 Chaos Warhounds - 30

Casting Pool: 9
Dispel Pool: 6
Models in Army: 47
Total Points: 1995

Lost a unit of hounds and the marauder horsemen to allow me to convert the marauders into chosen knights :P
I also changed the equipment on the sorcerer and the exalted champion, and moved the rapturous standard onto the knights. Plan now would be to use one unit of hounds to screen the warriors (for 1 turn at least :p) and the other to fill in where needed. The warriors are a slow part of the army, but the sorcerer in them ought to bumble around causing enough trouble that the enemy tries to have a go at them. Besides if they use all their shooting on that slow unit, my fast things will wipe up their army :). Seeing as chariots cant march (AFAIK), the warriors wont be left behind all by themselves!

Briohmar
05-12-2007, 19:56
Um, I think in this instance, the marauders are probably better than chosen warriors, just my opinion really. I know Warriors look way cool, but they just aren't all that. I'd rather have a big block of marauders and a 5 strong unit of horsemen with musician and flails than a 15 strong unit of chosen, whom everyone will avoid like the plague. It just gives you more flexibility. And if you team them up, then you have a really nasty combat force to work with. Hit them with luxurious torment just before they fight and you are golden. We aren't trying to tell you not to take the warriors (ok, really we are,) but they're just not a cost effective unit in the current scheme of things. My chosen warriors only take to the field in 4K points games. I used to use them all the time in 6th edition, but they never earned back anything resembling their points cost. By comparison, a unit of 20 marauders with flails or great weapons is nothing to sneeze at. They hit hard, but even with sword and board they seem to do alright.

Hope it helps.

Belerophon709
05-12-2007, 21:21
I pretty much second what Briohmar is saying, with a few notes:

If you don't want to go for marauders over warriors, the warriors can actually work, but don't make them chosen - they're a points-sink for such poor mobility. Instead, take regular warriors and let them act as a Ulat's bodyguard, that means, play them defensively. Let the enemy come to you, to get at your sorcerer. Slap in a Warbanner for some added CR and it should work quite nicely.

Regarding your knights, I would definately remove the champion. As it stands at the moment, you will NOT get a 'Look out, Sir!'-roll and regular missile hits will be randomized. The reason for this is that the rulebook states that the champion counts as a character when the unit is fired upon. This means that you effectively only have 4 RnF-models for shooting-purposes.

These two fixes should leave you with 84 points left over (including the 5 points you already have left over).

If my memory serves me right, that's enough for 5 marauders with flails and a musician - and 3 points to spare.

I like where the list is going - good improvements so far, now for the fine-tuning ;)

RaZeR
06-12-2007, 16:04
To be honest, I think I'd rather take marauders than warriors anyway, I kinda prefer the models and I use marauders to represent my Mordheim Middenheimers, so I have some ideas for paint schemes/techniques as well. Plus some spares knocking around :)

With the above changes, i now have 2 possible lists:

1

Exalted Chaos Sorcerer of Slaanesh (Raska) - 419
Level 4, Barded Chaos Steed, Spell Familiar, Chaos Daemon Sword
Joins:
5 Chosen Knights of Slaanesh - 325
Musician, Standard, Rapturous Standard

Chaos Sorcerer of Slaanesh (Ulat) - 190
Level 2, Power Familiar
Joins:
30 Marauders - 235
HW + Shield, Full command
OR: 30 Marauders w/ Flail, Full command
OR: 26 Marauders w/ Flail, Shield, Full command (5pts less)

5 Mounted Daemonettes - 150


Exalted Chaos Champion (Kvist) - 150
Chaos Armour, Beserker Sword, Enchanted Shield
Mounted in:
1 Undivided Chaos Chariot - 120

1 Undivided Chaos Chariot - 120

7 Chaos Furies - 105

6 Marauder Horsemen - 96
Flail, Musician
OR: Take off one horseman and 1 marauder to give the rest throwing axes...

5 Chaos Warhounds - 30

5 Chaos Warhounds - 30

5 Chaos Warhounds - 30

Casting Pool: 9
Dispel Pool: 6
Models in Army: 74
Total Points: 2000

2

Exalted Chaos Sorcerer of Slaanesh (Raska) - 419
Level 4, Barded Chaos Steed, Spell Familiar, Chaos Daemon Sword
Joins:
5 Chosen Knights of Slaanesh - 325
Musician, Standard, Rapturous Standard

Chaos Sorcerer of Slaanesh (Ulat) - 190
Level 2, Power Familiar
Joins:
14 Chaos Warriors of Slaanesh - 285
HW + Shield, Full Command, War Banner

5 Mounted Daemonettes - 150


Exalted Chaos Champion (Kvist) - 150
Chaos Armour, Shield, Beserker Sword
Mounted in:
1 Undivided Chaos Chariot - 120

1 Undivided Chaos Chariot - 120

5 Chaos Furies - 75
OR: Take off one unit of hounds to bump this up to 7

5 Marauder Horsemen - 81
Flail, Musician

5 Chaos Warhounds - 30

5 Chaos Warhounds - 30

5 Chaos Warhounds - 30

Casting Pool: 9
Dispel Pool: 6
Models in Army: 55
Total Points: 1997

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Note that in the second list, the exalted does not have the enchanted shield...

On the whole i think i prefer the first list, lots of marauders yay :), plus I've minimized furies and marauder horsemen in the second list.
However, Marauders aren't slaanesh marked, so might run away with my sorcerer, whereas warriors wont...

Thanks for all the input guys :)
Just a small amount of finalising to do now! :angel:

RaZeR
07-12-2007, 12:50
Hmm... Sorry for the double post, but I was perusing the GW online store, and realised that mounted daemonettes are 10 each... Seeing as I'm a little strapped for cash atm, I was wondering if it would work if i replaced them with a unit of 3 minotaurs with 2 hand weapons and a Champion (152 pts)?? I know the daemonettes are very useful though, so if they're essential i could keep them :p

Belerophon709
07-12-2007, 16:15
Easy fix for the daemonette issue:

Convert!

I paired torsos from regular daemonettes with BfSP-spiders into a centaur'ish mounted daemonette... First muck-up-result looked like this:

http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa246/Belerophon709/WHFB%20Daemonettes/nydamonette3.jpg

Stole the idea from someone on this forum, can't remember his name or find the thread though, would like to give him credit.

If you choose to go with minos, I would definately give them GWs and get a standard instead of a champ. Also, for this, I'd recommend making your exalted the army general as the minos would then be able to take the mark of chaos undivided, otherwise they'll be left with no mark or mark of slaanesh, which basically...erm, well, it's not good on minos. They need to be able to flee.

Alternatively, going with the undivided general (the exalted), you could also dash in a spot of tzeentch in the list. 4 screamers for 132 points might be an idea as this would be a great addition to the speedy part of the list. Leaves a few points open as well ;)

Just some thoughts.

RaZeR
07-12-2007, 22:59
Conversion is probably a good idea, because i love the daemonettes gameplay-wise... Any other ideas for converting them?

And as regards the choice of 2 lists in the first of my double posts; anyone have any opinions? :)

Belerophon709
08-12-2007, 20:23
There are tons of options for converting mounted daemonettes. You could have them riding big snakes if you want - pretty easy to make the snakes, then just use daemonette torsos and have the leg-region covered by some sort of cloth/fur if you don't want to start modelling legs.

As for your two latest lists, I'd say it's pretty much a matter of taste really. There are things I would still change, but that should be apparent from my previous posts. Just because I would change it doesn't necessarily make it better. Would just suit me better ;)

The thoughts behind both lists are sound, so it's all about getting it to the table and trying it out. One thing I will say though is that when it comes to marauders (the foot-slogging kind) I find that 90% of the time, HW, LA + Shield is the way to go. Being so soft, the extra points spent on flails or GWs will usually only end up giving your opponent extra VPs, as they are unlikely to get the charge themselves, and if they get charged, it's unlikely that they will have much of a front rank left to strike back, unless they have that 4+ save to the front.

When I use marauders equipped differently, I usually employ them as sort of a counter-charging-detachment for my bigger block of marauders.

Keep us posted - keen to hear how it fares on the table!

RaZeR
09-12-2007, 23:40
Hmm... good ideas :)
I think that if I go with the mounter daemonettes I'll almost certainly convert them. It might be worth posting on the painting tips forum :p

As regards the other lists, I think I'll go with marauders to begin with, If they don't work I'll convert them to go with my middenheim warband abnd get some Chaos Warriors ;)

TBH, I'm keen to see how it fares on the table as well! I have little money and little opportunity for gaming, but I'll do my best! Apart from the mounter daemonettes, it seems a relatively cheap army to collect, and initially I think I'll either proxy the mounter daemonettes or replace them with a unit of marauders with GW as a temporary counter-charger :)

Thanks to everyone for their opinion, I hope i manage to get my act together and get it sorted!! (It definately wont be until after Christmas though, as I'm going to Cape Town on the 17th for the whole of my Christmas holidays...)

Cheers!!