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Gen.Steiner
04-12-2007, 18:57
Righty-O, I know I don't post much (at all) in the Fantasy section of Warseer, so my creating a new thread is perhaps a bit uppity. ;)

Anyway, what I wanted to throw to the herd was this:

I have bought almost all I will ever buy for 7th Edition, rules-wise. I have the Empire Army Book and will buy the Vampire Counts one when it emerges. That's it, and I'm only getting those so I can play in stores! Otherwise, I have every single 6th Edition rulebook and supplement produced, and I see no need whatsoever to spend hundreds of pounds on trading up an edition when 6th is perfectly serviceable and works just fine.

I have no worries about models, either, as GW continues to produce them for all armies, so I can collect 6th Edition armies to my heart's content. This then enables me to, for example, play against friends who have no army of their own or who cannot transport their beloved troops the hundreds of miles/feet to get to mine.

So, the question is this: has anyone else done this? Will anyone else do this with 7th (or any other) edition? Am I insane, and am I missing out? If so, why? What are the cons? Are there any?

Discuss! :)

Etienne de Beaugard
04-12-2007, 19:16
Nothing crazy about your views. Personnally, the only reason I ever bought an army book was because I was playing that army. I had enough friends who would let me page through their books, or a quick trip to a retail store would garner me access to a display copy.

DDogwood
04-12-2007, 20:34
So, the question is this: has anyone else done this? Will anyone else do this with 7th (or any other) edition? Am I insane, and am I missing out? If so, why? What are the cons? Are there any?

I think that there are always old-edition die-hards. I've been out of the loop for a while, but I remember people who refused to move to 6th Ed. because it ruined their 'themed' armies; people who refused to move to 5th Ed. because it made the game 'too silly'; and people who refused to move to 4th Ed. because it 'dumbed down' the game and was too restrictive (2nd Ed. was before my time). Most of these people also felt that the previous edition was perfectly serviceable, and that they didn't want to spend tons of money upgrading to the new edition.

There's certainly nothing wrong with it. At the end of the day, most of us switch to a new edition because everyone else is switching to the new edition. It's pretty circular.

On the other hand, I have enough trouble finding people to play Warmaster, never mind someone who wants to play Warhammer with all my 4th Ed. rulebooks...

Gen.Steiner
04-12-2007, 20:54
On the other hand, I have enough trouble finding people to play Warmaster, never mind someone who wants to play Warhammer with all my 4th Ed. rulebooks...

Ah, but the beauty is that if you have enough armies (a minimum of two!) you can coerce - er, convince - friends and family to play with you. :)

Glad to see I'm not alone to be honest! :D

tenpole
04-12-2007, 21:17
I am sticking with my 6th edition set. There is nothing wrong with adapting your house rules to include 7th edition rules that are a bit better, which is what 7th edition is anyway. 6th edition with some tweaks. I still might be looking at getting the 7th edition O&G codex, as well as the Dark elf.

n0gArd
04-12-2007, 21:48
try play HE 6th edition.

you have 2 options: ALL knights
or: all shooting/magic.

GL!

Hywel
04-12-2007, 22:03
am I missing out? If so, why? What are the cons? Are there any?


The main con is that you won't be able to easily find pick-up games at clubs or stores, furthermore you will be using different rules to the 'tournament scene'. This limits your opponents significantly.

There is also the fact that a new edition provides a bit of a shake up and breathes some fresh life into stale armies and tactics.

However, in your case, I wouldn't consider these much of a problem. If I understand correctly you have not and do not play so much fantasy that you have grown bored of it or tire seeing the same army lists. Also it seems your opponent base is going to be previously known to you and using your armies so you won't have trouble finding games.

Whereas normally I'd suggest moving with the times, it really doesn't seem that you need to so don't feel forced into updating for the sake of it. You're not going to be missing out on any new brand of fun.

Bingo the Fun Monkey
04-12-2007, 22:09
6th edition was perfectly serviceable and the only aspect of it that I took issue with (the Magic phase) was not properly addressed in 7th either. However, I think the changes to panic, the "crossfire" rule as well as the potential for single units to perform multiple combats a turn to make the game a lot more interesting. It allows greater range of tactics although it might be strategically more restrictive, imHo.

Bretonnian Lord
04-12-2007, 22:18
My friends and I still play sixth edition, although this is because we would rather spend our money on new models instead of on the 7th edition rulebook! :p

Sunfang
04-12-2007, 22:41
Well updating books really isnt all that much money imo. Your not required to upgrade models which is the expensive time consuming thing anyhow.

Generally (again imo) when the release a new edition its for the better. Whether its to make the game more streamline or to simply polish a system, a rulebook is only 50 bucks. If you start slowly buying army books after that you will ensure that as previously noted you will always have opponents.

Ward.
05-12-2007, 04:10
Personally I don't think they needed 7th edition, (especially at a time when the share prices are looking a bit weak, but i won't go into that here for risk of derailing the thread).

However it may be harder to get new people into the game if you tell them they're learning out dated rules that few people actually use. So my advice is brush up on both rule sets and play how ever you like.

Jakk
05-12-2007, 04:18
6th edition was perfectly serviceable and the only aspect of it that I took issue with (the Magic phase) was not properly addressed in 7th either. However, I think the changes to panic, the "crossfire" rule as well as the potential for single units to perform multiple combats a turn to make the game a lot more interesting. It allows greater range of tactics although it might be strategically more restrictive, imHo.

What is the "crossfire" rule?

Flypaper
05-12-2007, 04:46
Sounds fine by me if your playgroup is 'closed' - or if it consists entirely of people you've taught to play, as you mentioned.


What is the "crossfire" rule?Models fleeing through enemies (US5+) are automatically destroyed. It's not the rule's real name, but it's become the de facto nickname. Introduced in 7th.

Braad
05-12-2007, 05:52
I can understand why people would stick to 6th. People like to hold on to what they got, and often a new generation of people is needed to fully accept a new generation of rules, technology, whatever.

Problem is, if everyone moves on, and you don't, you'll be left behind alone.
What if everyone would have stuck in 16th century? We would all still be riding horses to work.

Things evolve. And if I compare what I heard about really old editions to the latest edition, it's a huge improvement. Ofcourse, the step of 6th to 7th is not big, but such things evolve slowly, and if you don't move along you're likely to go extinct.

But that's just my scientific vision :p

---Edit---

By the way, what is a couple of dollars for 1 new rulebook (that's all I needed for 7th edition) compared to the thousands I spend on little greenskins?

Gen.Steiner
05-12-2007, 06:00
Problem is, if everyone moves on, and you don't, you'll be left behind alone.
What if everyone would have stuck in 16th century? We would all still be riding horses to work.

...

By the way, what is a couple of dollars for 1 new rulebook (that's all I needed for 7th edition) compared to the thousands I spend on little greenskins?

I don't think you can compare the inevitable march of technological and social progress with a change in rules sets, to be fair. :p

Main book - £30.
Army books, £12 each, for up to 16 races* - £192
Between 2 and 4 supplements at £12 each - £24/48.
Total - about £246 or £270 saved by not changing editions. That'll get me a lot of toy soldiers (or even a present or two for my friends/family). :)

* Wood, Dark, High Elves (3). Empire, Bretonnians, Dogs of War(3). Ogre Kingdoms, Orcs and Goblins, Skaven, Lizardmen (4). Chaos Demons, Dwarves, Mortals, Beastmen (4). Vampire Counts, Tomb Kings (2).

DDogwood
05-12-2007, 16:18
Problem is, if everyone moves on, and you don't, you'll be left behind alone.
What if everyone would have stuck in 16th century? We would all still be riding horses to work.

Newer isn't always better. For example, while cars are faster than horses, horses don't pollute as much as cars.


Things evolve. And if I compare what I heard about really old editions to the latest edition, it's a huge improvement.

It really depends on what you're looking for. Since 4th Ed., the rules have focused heavily on "army lists", taking the job of making armies balanced away from the players and putting it into the hands of the designers. That's had a huge impact on how the game is played - back in the old days, people who built lists to be "rock hard" or "powerful" were looked on as munchkins and power-gamers who were missing the point of wargaming.

I enjoy WFB, but sometimes it's main strength is that lots of people play WFB. When a new edition comes out, you would expect that the community would evaluate it and collectively decide to adopt it if it was clearly superior to the older rules. In reality, we adopt it because GW tells us we should adopt it.

The first edition I played was 3rd Ed. The rules were needlessly complicated, but it was a very cool battle game with lots of scope for creativity. 4th and 5th Ed. simplified the rules, but turned the Warhammer background into "high fantasy" instead of the "dark fantasy" that drew players in originally. They also made powerful heroes the center of the game, instead of focusing on the armies.

6th and 7th Ed. have further simplified the rules (in a good way) and have progressively reduced the emphasis on "Herohammer", but have moved even farther away from the connection between late medieval warfare and the Warhammer world. Things like Steam Tanks, chariots, mechanical horses, dinosaurs, and such weren't part of the Old World that I fell in love with in the late 1980's.

So, if by 'evolve', you mean 'change into a form that is better adapted to a changing environment', then I totally agree. If you mean 'improve', I can't agree - the newer rules are better in some ways, and worse in others. We don't adopt them because they're better, but because we think we need to adopt them to continue finding opponents. This is a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Prophet of Quetzl
05-12-2007, 18:08
* Wood, Dark, High Elves (3). Empire, Bretonnians, Dogs of War, Chaos Mortals (4). Ogre Kingdoms, Orcs and Goblins, Skaven (3). Chaos Demons, Dwarves, Mortals, Beastmen (4). Vampire Counts, Tomb Kings (2).

Lizardmen? where's the love?

Gen.Steiner
05-12-2007, 18:12
Lizardmen? where's the love?

I knew I'd forgotten someone! Damn! OK, 17 armies, add £12 to my estimates. :p

twj
05-12-2007, 18:36
Interesting to see you are preparing for Apocalypse....

DDogwood
05-12-2007, 18:36
I knew I'd forgotten someone! Damn! OK, 17 armies, add £12 to my estimates. :p

No, it's OK, you have Chaos Mortals in there twice.

Gen.Steiner
05-12-2007, 18:38
So I do. Right, editing that post to make me look less of an idiot. :p

@ twj - yup, I've not played a game yet, so am still preparing. ;)

brambleten
05-12-2007, 19:28
i dont have the 7th ed book, so i use my old 6th ed book, and i only got the HE book because i got bored with my Lizards. i like 6th ed because commet of cassendora is cast on a 10, not a 12 :) thats about it really

Unwise
05-12-2007, 23:36
I'm a little confused.

Why do you feel compelled to buy each army book? Do you actually own all 16 armies?

Why would not owning an army book for a race you don't play in any way effect your ability to play 7th edition with the two armies you have the new book for?

Gen.Steiner
05-12-2007, 23:51
Why do you feel compelled to buy each army book? Do you actually own all 16 armies?

It was a cunning plan. Essentially, by buying every single book for WFB 6th Ed, I have ensured that I can collect armies at leisure, encourage my friends to play, and generally not have to worry about my armies being destroyed by a radically new version of the rules. :)


Why would not owning an army book for a race you don't play in any way effect your ability to play 7th edition with the two armies you have the new book for?

It doesn't. Well, it does, in that I have less intelligence on my enemies... :evilgrin: No, it's just that I had a Plan (see above) and I don't wish to go through any more edition changes, really, as I am happy with 6th and do not want to spend money every few years on a new rulebook etc. I'd rather buy the models.

Flypaper
06-12-2007, 10:46
Newer isn't always better. For example, while cars are faster than horses, horses don't pollute as much as cars.Not strictly true. I saw an interesting report a couple of years ago that suggested that London would be uninhabitable by now if not for the invention of the car, due to accumulated methane pollution. :)

(similarly, bovine flatulence is a significant contributor to global warming :eek: )

Gen.Steiner
06-12-2007, 10:47
(similarly, bovine flatulence is a significant contributor to global warming :eek: )

Only because we eat so many of the damn' things. And drink their milk.

Revlid
06-12-2007, 11:28
But surely if we ate more the problem would decrease?

In any case, I only buy army books for those armies I own - I don't have the money to do otherwise, so the edition conversion was relatively painless for me.

Gen.Steiner
06-12-2007, 11:45
But surely if we ate more the problem would decrease?

No, because the law of supply and demand would mean that supply would be increased to meet demand. Or, supply would be increased slightly and then stick at silly high prices. Either way the problem grows, not decreases. Errr... that was a bit off topic! :p


In any case, I only buy army books for those armies I own - I don't have the money to do otherwise, so the edition conversion was relatively painless for me.

Which is definitely an option. :) I just prefer the idea of being able to own a complete game for which I can slowly collect multiple armies.

silashand
06-12-2007, 11:55
I don't see a problem with sticking with it as long as you have players to game with who also don't mind. I am personally doing the same thing with 40K essentially. All the 3rd/4th edition codices work with the main v4 rules so I have no problem sticking with those 3rd edition ones that still work (see chaos). In the end it's all about having fun and as I said, if you have friends to game with then who's to tell you otherwise?

Cheers, Gary

Glabro
06-12-2007, 13:50
Err, by staying with 6th, do you mean you won´t update your army book, and play with obsolete / broken lists forever, like High and Dark Elves?

Also, I hope you´re not doing this just because of magic...

tenpole
06-12-2007, 14:07
Err, by staying with 6th, do you mean you won´t update your army book, and play with obsolete / broken lists forever, like High and Dark Elves?

Also, I hope you´re not doing this just because of magic...

What do you mean by broken?
I still intend to use 6th edition although I am implementing the magic dice pool rule of the 7th edition, in that only the dice generated by that magic user can use the dice they generate. I thought this made much more sense and stops the low level MU just for a power boost to the high level magic user.

Gen.Steiner
06-12-2007, 14:09
Err, by staying with 6th, do you mean you won´t update your army book, and play with obsolete / broken lists forever, like High and Dark Elves?

No, I mean that the only books I'll ever buy for 7th are the Empire and Vampire ones. This minimises cost, allows me to play in stores, and means that I can, with my friends, and as part of a gaming club that meets in a shed, collect armies at a leisurely pace without worrying about obsolecence, which in wargames is an inane concept anyway. Hell, Charge! still works and that's 40 years old now. So do Kreigspiel and Little Wars!


I hope you´re not doing this just because of magic...

:eyebrows:

No, I'm doing it because it reduces cost and increases the number of games I'll get to play; when a mate comes round we can pop out to the shed and break open the WFB - any army, any time, or at least that's the theory. I don't powergame, kthnxbai.

Chiron
06-12-2007, 14:14
To be honest there is very little difference between the two editions so I've no problems with it

Hell I've not even bothered with the rulebook myself as I've got all the significant rules changes in my head (and the 5 wide thing I did anyway...)

DDogwood
06-12-2007, 16:52
Not strictly true. I saw an interesting report a couple of years ago that suggested that London would be uninhabitable by now if not for the invention of the car, due to accumulated methane pollution.

I find it hard to believe that the pollution from the back of a horse is worse in any way than the pollution from the back of a car, even when you account for the fact that a horse is idling all day long :p

Anyways, my point is that something that is newer isn't necessarily better in every possible way. I'm not convinced that 7th Ed. is an overall improvement over 3rd or 5th ed., for example - the rules are cleaner in a lot of ways, but the game is less flexible, and the spirit of creating a fun battle for everyone involved is being edged out by the spirit of creating an army that's hard to beat.


Hell, Charge! still works and that's 40 years old now. So do Kreigspiel and Little Wars!

I'm not familiar with Charge!, but Kriegspiel has the worst detailed minis of any minis game EVER, and it's really hard to find the spring-loaded cannons for Little Wars.

But I agree with your point that wargames shouldn't become 'obsolete', at least not nearly as fast as they seem to nowadays. If we all decided to stick with 6th instead of 7th, it would be hard for GW to 'force' a switch.

Gen.Steiner
06-12-2007, 17:02
I'm not familiar with Charge!, but Kriegspiel has the worst detailed minis of any minis game EVER, and it's really hard to find the spring-loaded cannons for Little Wars.

Charge! Or How to Play Wargames by Brigadier Peter Young, one of the same generation of wargame-popularisers such as C.S. Grant and Donald Featherstone. :) Jolly good rules sets in Charge! and Grant and Featherstone's books.


But I agree with your point that wargames shouldn't become 'obsolete', at least not nearly as fast as they seem to nowadays. If we all decided to stick with 6th instead of 7th, it would be hard for GW to 'force' a switch.

Or with any edition that we fancied. Why not play 3rd, 2nd, or 4th Edition WFB?

Welf VIII.
06-12-2007, 19:07
Might surprise you, but two friends of mine are still only playing 3rd Edition or WAB. They promised to introduce me to 3rd Ed. rules next weekend.

Holy Crap! Manticores!
07-12-2007, 02:00
6th Ed was pretty good, and for the most part, 7th isn't that big of a change, although the few changes that were made do change the game quite a bit.

In fact, I thought the 6th ed rulebook was much more robust for setting up games.

javaguru
07-12-2007, 02:20
I feel that 7th is a definite improvement over 6th, I started with 5th and my first army was Undead. That being said, GW still haven't addressed the most problematic issue, dispel scrolls. I enjoyed the randomness of winds of magic cards in 5th edition but the system had other problems. Keeping dispel scrolls unlimited and auto dispel keeps the system "broken" IMO. I would like to see dispel scrolls eliminated and have power stones work like a mystical "battery" that can add two dice to power or dispel but I would make them limited one per character.

Cosmocrat
07-12-2007, 03:12
Honestly, I don't really get the point. As far as I have seen, the changes are rather minute. Pay the 50 bucks and move on into the 21st century.

speedygogo
07-12-2007, 08:13
Not strictly true. I saw an interesting report a couple of years ago that suggested that London would be uninhabitable by now if not for the invention of the car, due to accumulated methane pollution. :)

(similarly, bovine flatulence is a significant contributor to global warming :eek: )

Consider the dodo, the lovable ground bird. Once evolved into it's newer form, it promptly went extinct.

kroq'gar
07-12-2007, 08:28
The newer rules are dumbing down the older editions, this makes it simpler and clarifies alot of issues, but also is taking away the 'epic fantasy' feel of themeing and mighty heros.

Im sort of hungup on changing- its alot of niggling little differences- eg empire are basically identical with a few new things (yeah, a mechanical horse, thats damn brilliant... im sure).

Previously the total revolution of the gameplay made it worth it, but this time around, its basically refinment. Theres going to be trouble when this editions run its coarse, because there arnt many directions left, bar new armies (woo, ogres) and campaigns.

silashand
07-12-2007, 08:52
I find it hard to believe that the pollution from the back of a horse is worse in any way than the pollution from the back of a car, even when you account for the fact that a horse is idling all day long :p

Then you've not been around horses very much, have you? ;) Ignoring the methane issue, the *physical* polution caused by horses is substantial, especially since they tend to relieve themselves whenever and wherever they feel the need. Read any account of what old west towns were like where lots of horses congregated. Suffice to say the roads were clogged with horse excrement and the stench was noticable from quite a distance away. No, I think cars are far and away less poluting all things considered.


If we all decided to stick with 6th instead of 7th, it would be hard for GW to 'force' a switch.

There are days when I wish we all didn't seem to operate like lemmings in that regard, with the vast majority getting caught up in the latest, greatest thing and thus pretty much forcing the train forward, even if sometimes the change isn't for the best. JMO though...

All that said, though I think 7th was a decent incremental change that fixed a few things that needed it, I don't think it addressed everything it needed to, nor do I think all those things that needed changing were even looked at. I never played 3rd edition, but the more I hear about it the more I'd love to give it a try. May have to see if I can find a copy somewhere.

Cheers, Gary

Braad
07-12-2007, 09:03
Newer isn't always better. For example, while cars are faster than horses, horses don't pollute as much as cars.

Imagine six billion people riding horses. The world would indeed be full of *********...
If that's no pollution?


But it was said that the OP bought al books so he could stick with playing 6 and doesn't have to spend money on 7th.
For the money those books cost, you could have paid for upgrading up to edition 13...

Anyway, I guess once in a while a new book is better then one old book with a huge pile of errata next to it.

And all I had to change for my army with the new edition, is remove the shields from my wolf cavalry to keep them fast. Don't really see the point in that.
But since people are complaining about things becoming obsolete, give me some examples. Now I am curious.

zoggin-eck
07-12-2007, 10:00
I think it's fine mate. I play 7th edition now after holding off for a bit, but am happy with the changes. Seem minor on paper, but important when actually playing. I think it's good just because it "shakes up" a game that I had been playing to death, and changes the armies I have, so a bit like a whole new game to play without having to buy a new army, just a set of rules. If your friends are happy to play this set, no harm done at all. You seem to have the right attitude, as you haven't gone all out and abused anyone who plays the new rules and the people who made them :) That I couldn't stand when 40k went to 3rd edition. Since it was totally different, just play the old rules! I guess then though, you couldn't just find all the previous rules on Ebay for instance, and had to panic to buy sets when they were on sale to make room!

How about the comparisons to other games? Think about Epic, where the changes were huge. Guys who still played 2nd edition when 3rd edition "Epic 40,000" came out. Seriously, I don't care what people say, I loved 3rd edition the most! I still enjoy it, even though there is now Epic Armageddon. Doesn't make me want to throw out the rules I still have, the same for previous editions. Just makes me want to read through the book and decide if I like it :)

If they changed the rules for monopoly, I wouldn't be in a hurry to buy it. Even if I did and preferred it, I would still drag out the old rules every now and then.

Trouble with warhammer is it's so big, and rules can easily be mixed up between rules sets, so I wouldn't plan on playing 6th edition, with friends for instance and then playing in-store with 7th. That's the reason I got sick of Warhammer Ancient Battles, I kept getting 5th edition, 6th edition and the stuff made up for Ancient battles mixed up.

Gen.Steiner
07-12-2007, 10:37
zoggin-eck, you're a sentient being after my own kidneys. :)

The important thing, no matter what edition you play, is to have fun, of course. I still play 3rd Ed Epic 40,000 as E:A isn't for me, I prefer 1st Edition Necromunda to the Living Rulebook version, and so on and so forth.

However, a game's a game, and I'm not going to refuse to play 7th WFB, E:A, or the LRB Necromunda at all ever. ;)

Gazak Blacktoof
07-12-2007, 11:30
You'll probably have some problems with the rules and points values (though obviously some will be wrong any way:rolleyes:) if you use 7th edition army books and 6th edition rules.

I'd grab a copy of the skull pass 7th edition rule book cheap on ebay etc.

EDIT: @ zoggin-eck

You do know the epic armaggedon rules are free?

Gen.Steiner
07-12-2007, 11:33
You'll probably have some problems with the rules and points values (though obviously some will be wrong any way:rolleyes:) if you use 7th edition army books and 6th edition rules.

Oh, I'm not going to be doing that. I'm only getting the new VC and Empire books so I can play in stores. I may go 50/50 with a mate on Skull Pass, but I'm not sure yet.

Gazak Blacktoof
07-12-2007, 12:31
Then no need to change. 6th edition is perfectly serviceable.

You might find you want to use 7th edition rules when the new vamp stuff comes out and there are no rules for helstorms or outriders for 6th (but you could make some rules up).

Scythe
07-12-2007, 14:03
Steiner, just out of curiosity, what Dwarf army book do you own then? It was released twice in 6th edition...;)

Gen.Steiner
07-12-2007, 14:10
Steiner, just out of curiosity, what Dwarf army book do you own then? It was released twice in 6th edition...;)

The first one. I didn't like the approach of the second, personally...!

Nephilim of Sin
07-12-2007, 15:14
Imagine six billion people riding horses. The world would indeed be full of horse ****...
If that's no pollution?



Then you've not been around horses very much, have you? ;) Ignoring the methane issue, the *physical* polution caused by horses is substantial, especially since they tend to relieve themselves whenever and wherever they feel the need. Read any account of what old west towns were like where lots of horses congregated. Suffice to say the roads were clogged with horse excrement and the stench was noticable from quite a distance away. No, I think cars are far and away less poluting all things considered.
Cheers, Gary

Except for the oil stains on the road, the leaking fluids that some people don't fix (which potentially end up in our water table), the tire shreds that lay about...and the asbestos brake pads?;) Of course, the point is moot. We are getting into an Ice Age. No, it is Global Warming. No, weather manipulation. Wait, horse crap (which I think sums up all the scientific arguements nicely). They really have no clue what is going on, but maybe they will get there.

As for the real point, well, I still have all my old editions. I like 7th (except now I need more models to get my +3 rank bonus with a box of Dwarves), but I still have 3rd-6th. Sometimes I would like 3rd, other times I really want Nagash, and it would be great to play older games. Play the game you paid to play. You won't get any complaints from me.

DDogwood
07-12-2007, 15:19
Previously the total revolution of the gameplay made it worth it, but this time around, its basically refinment. Theres going to be trouble when this editions run its coarse, because there arnt many directions left, bar new armies (woo, ogres) and campaigns.

I'd say that the differences between 6th and 7th are comparable to the differences between 4th and 5th - the fundamentals of the game didn't change very much, but there were a lot of minor tweaks and clarifications.

Only the folks at GW can really know where they're going to go after the last of the 7th Ed. army books have come out, but history would suggest that they'll look at a more major overhaul of the game. Who knows, we may end up with WarhammerClix in seven years.


Then you've not been around horses very much, have you? ;) Ignoring the methane issue, the *physical* polution caused by horses is substantial, especially since they tend to relieve themselves whenever and wherever they feel the need. Read any account of what old west towns were like where lots of horses congregated. Suffice to say the roads were clogged with horse excrement and the stench was noticable from quite a distance away. No, I think cars are far and away less poluting all things considered.

No offense, but you're beating a dead car here. My point is simply that newer isn't necessarily better, and I think you agree with the principle. If it helps, pretend that I said "for example, when your car breaks down in the middle of nowhere, you can't cook it and eat it, while a horse offers you the option".


All that said, though I think 7th was a decent incremental change that fixed a few things that needed it, I don't think it addressed everything it needed to, nor do I think all those things that needed changing were even looked at. I never played 3rd edition, but the more I hear about it the more I'd love to give it a try. May have to see if I can find a copy somewhere.

The 3rd Ed. rules were pretty complicated compared to more recent editions, which is both good and bad. They allowed more detail, but often that level of detail feels a bit pointless. The real benefit to 3rd Ed. was the sense that you created an army and set up a battle to be as balanced as possible - creating a "rock hard" army list was possible, but it was about as constructive as trying to create a stronger army of G.I. Joe Action Figures than your buddies so you could "beat" them when you played. The game was still something that you played to win, of course, but winning wasn't any more important than building a cool, imaginative, and thematic army. I would love to see this spirit come back to the game, because the players with this attitude seem to be getting harder and harder to find.

Urgat
07-12-2007, 20:07
Consider the dodo, the lovable ground bird. Once evolved into it's newer form, it promptly went extinct.

It's newer form? The "full of lead" form?

tenpole
07-12-2007, 23:48
It's newer form? The "full of lead" form?

I have heard they were not a tasty bird to eat. I would guess early naturalist proposed this as there theory on their extinction (this is the Dodo).
I believe the better theory is the introduction to vermin to the islands where they inhabited or something like that eating their eggs, that they lay on the ground. Maybe I should have looked on Wikki first.

zoggin-eck
08-12-2007, 00:12
Hey Gazak Blacktoof, I did know the Armageddon rules were free :) They seem cool to me, but I can't convince anyone to play any version of Epic anyway, sadly. The little time I get to play now should probably be spent on just one game anyway.

That's the trouble too, supplying both armies for a game, like I did with Epic 40k with friends. It was fun. but I did get sick of seeing my own armies, losing the fun of seeing how other people would paint and set up an army. That, and the fact that you could never expect the other player to know the army as well as you do, always reminding them of which figure was which. That enthusiasm for the army was missing, as it wasn't really theirs.

What it does mean though, is both armies can be balanced, in that I used to have different lists, and let my opponent decide which to use, that way I couldn't set up a super powerful army knowing that my opponent might choose it.

By the way, I don't always agree with the whole "this/that edition is just dumbing down, etc." Twice as many rues doesn't make it any more realistic or in-depth. Look how basic chess is when you look at the rules! A better example might be the Madboyz in 40k. They used to have hundreds of different rules, lists upon lists of different "phobias" etc. This was pretty cool, and the descriptions were brilliant! But six or so pages devoted to something that may never happen, with similar effects was a bit much. Seemed more like roleplaying than wargaming, which I guess it was.

DDogwood
08-12-2007, 05:51
What it does mean though, is both armies can be balanced, in that I used to have different lists, and let my opponent decide which to use, that way I couldn't set up a super powerful army knowing that my opponent might choose it.

This would be a great way to play WFB, too. It let you maintain the competitive spirit, but also ensures that the game will be enjoyable for both players.

Gen.Steiner
08-12-2007, 14:12
This would be a great way to play WFB, too. It let you maintain the competitive spirit, but also ensures that the game will be enjoyable for both players.

To a great extent it's what I plan for 6th Edition... but also to have enough stuff that, in theory, most lists (if not all) can be played and my friends can create their own (using my models) if they wish.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
09-12-2007, 13:59
Got to say, 7th Edition has enough new rules in it to warrant picking up the book in my opinion. Why not trawl Ebay for a Skull Pass rulebook? Only paying a few quid then.

Whats the significant changes?

Panic. Now, you are only panicked if a friendly unit flees through you, which is a godsend for certain low Ld armies, as a single well placed Terror test is less likely to decimate your line. Well, as long as I don't land it right on your flank!

Buildings. These rules are awesome. Not enough to break the game by any means, but very serviceable, and they just seem to work. Plus you can use them as amazing Zombie Clown Cars. 4 Zombies shuffle in, 30 Zombies shuffle out!

Magic. Tweaked lores, casting rules and miscast table.

Frenzy. Now affects the mount of a Frenzied rider (mmm....4 S5 attack per Savage Orc Big'Un Boarboy on the charge...mmmm!)

Plus lots of other tweaks and that.

Well worth it, even if you don't want to pay £30....

Gen.Steiner
09-12-2007, 15:05
To be honest, if I do end up getting the Skull Pass book, I'd want the Skull Pass models too. :p After all, I've always wanted a sizeable Savage Orc/Forest Goblin army, and those plastic Spider Riders are yummy, and then I've got that Shaman, and the metal Dwarfs and and and... *ahem*

But I'd still only use the rules in stores. 6th Ed is my WF set of choice now I have all the books for it. ;)

cornixt
09-12-2007, 16:28
I've not noticed anything in the new armybooks that couldn't be used in 6th edition, although a few things might not be balanced.

Kerill
10-12-2007, 04:32
If you prefer the rules for 6th then stick with them and good on you for it! If its a simple cost issue then the internet is a wonderful resource so the cost of rulebooks doesn't necessarily come into the equasion.