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bassmasterliam
04-12-2007, 21:00
Should i give carapace armour to my normal IG troopers?
or is it not worth the points.

what does everyone think.

FooFighter
04-12-2007, 21:03
It depends on your army and your general ethos - would you rather have more guns but weaker troops, or better armoured troops fewer in number.

In general, I would personally stick with their regular armour - your doctrines are better used elsewhere :)

bassmasterliam
04-12-2007, 21:09
i want a bit of both

catbarf
04-12-2007, 21:31
It's very good, actually. They cost becomes 133% the original value, but they become 200% as tough against AP5 (read: 75% of enemy shooting).

Eulenspiegel
04-12-2007, 21:37
You cannot simply say "its good", and then do a simple equation to support that :) WH40K is more complex, and so are individual tactics.

There are seasoned Guard players who shun it in favour of more bodies and more guns, and some who swear by it.
There is only one advice: before you convert / buy models, try it out and see for yourself.

I found it excellent on paper, when building my first army. After a few games I noticed Id rather have another squad or two. Worked better for me.
Now only my Rough Riders wear Carapace. Fits my army fluff better, also.

feelnopain666
04-12-2007, 22:21
for what I have seen, a 4+ army is not something to ignore. my brother have a Radical daemon hunters army and all his troop choices are Storm troopers in full squads. For example he even beated a Iron warriors army once, and one time 1 squad have killed 20 Space marines! I know that Storm troopers are not the same as guardsmen, but its close.

ReDavide
04-12-2007, 22:25
i want a bit of both

Sounds like Grenadiers might be the better doctrine for you then. If you take Carapace Armor, then everyone who *can* take it, *has* to take it.

Grenadiers would let you take plenty of 4+ armored squads without losing the ability to take regular grunt guardsmen.

catbarf
04-12-2007, 22:26
You cannot simply say "its good", and then do a simple equation to support that :) WH40K is more complex, and so are individual tactics.

There are seasoned Guard players who shun it in favour of more bodies and more guns, and some who swear by it.
There is only one advice: before you convert / buy models, try it out and see for yourself.

I found it excellent on paper, when building my first army. After a few games I noticed Id rather have another squad or two. Worked better for me.
Now only my Rough Riders wear Carapace. Fits my army fluff better, also.

It isn't just good on paper, it's good in-game. The upgrade is worth its weight in gold against most of the firepower you will encounter, and even if your troops are in cover it is still worth the price.

Onlyhestands
04-12-2007, 22:28
Personally I dont use carapace except on my rough riders but the main value (at least in my eyes) of carapace is that it allows a squad of guardsmen to weather a round of fire from an infrantry squad such as marines or necrons that invalidate flak armor, and not have to pull the whole squad of the table. However it adds up and its still the full cost for smaller squads too.

zerachiel
04-12-2007, 22:34
It invalidates the usage of Light Infantry, so I personally do not ever make use of it.

Your Guardsmen may be able to save themselves half the time against bolter fire now, but 20 points means that for every squad, you'd losing out by 3 Guardsmen, or 2 Plasma Guns, or 1/2 a Commissar, etc. And that also means the firepower these other choices could've brought to the table are now instead being put to use so that your Guardsmen will not be massacred as quickly the moment they leave cover.

I'd personally rather spend those 20 points on Light Infantry and Cameleoline, that way you get a 3+ cover save half the time, and can infiltrate into cover so you don't need to fight the enemy from open ground. Leave that type of single-minded heroism to the Marines, or the Conscripts.

silence
04-12-2007, 22:39
i prefer the grenadier option. It gives you a good amount of carapace armour, the Kasrkrin models are great, and it lets you also take some cheaper more expendable guardsmen to still give you a decent weight of fire to support your better troopers. It also means the likes of your heavy wepons squads (that should not be recieving that much low powered incoming fire anyway) cheaper.

It also lets you take a whole army of "elite" guardsmen by useing up 3 troops and 3 elite slots, just remember that the grenadier options are slightly different, and if you want more stormtroopers you can also add some from the inquisitor list... Ok, so I'm a fan of stormtroopers so I'm biased ;)

On a modelling front, I don't know how good your skills are, but do you want to convert a whole load of IG infantry to wearing carapace? Where as the Grenadiers may cost more but the models are already done, and look pretty good ( IMO anyway.. biased ;) )

Hope this has been useful.

ThorsMitersaw
04-12-2007, 22:58
I say if you want something, to take cameoline cloaks

+1 to your cover saves is AWESOME for the IG.

You should be making as much use of cover with the IG as possible anyway and it can give you a excellent cover save. ESPECIALLY in city fights.

Bunnahabhain
04-12-2007, 23:05
I prefer them without carapace. More guns are generally better than more suvivable guns.

If I want to go carapace heavy, I too go with Storm troopers and grenadiers, and run panzergrenadiers. 6 expensive (for guard) squads plus tanks works well enough up to about 2000pts.

As carapce is such an easy option to moded, certainly for a few battles whilst you decide if you like it or not- all Guard humans except conscripts must have carapce, so it's probably easier to use a mixture of cadian and catachan parts to represent flak armoured conscripts, and the better armoured cadians are threfore in carapace.

If you want to go the whole hog and convert every basic Guradsmen with extra armour, or buy one of the expensive metal regiments, then it will look great but isn't easy.

azimaith
04-12-2007, 23:07
It depends on the army. I've had armies with camelioline and carapace armor to gain saves against plain flamers and cover saves. It worked quite well in an infantry heavy force with lots of special weapons (and drop troops!)

Brother Fenix
04-12-2007, 23:11
I've used carapace, but switched in favor of light infantry. It was better to be able to infiltrate and take advantage of cover saves, then to have the better armor save, having said that, if you do not want an infiltrating army because it does not work with your theme, I would say go for it since it is defiantly worth it (50/50) is a darn good save, and you will get a save against almost all of the basic infantry weapons.

catbarf
04-12-2007, 23:11
Drop Troops is great with Carapace- you can't drop into cover, so it gives you the armor to survive a turn in the open.

azimaith
04-12-2007, 23:13
You can drop into cover. Your thinking of the wrong edition. Its still great with drop troops because if a bad scatter leaves you out in the open you can survive for a little longer.

Voleron
04-12-2007, 23:21
Drop Troops are generally a good army type to use carapace with - units are spread out, arrive piecemeal and really need to survive as long as they can, usually without adequate support. Plus, Carapace fits the whole "hi-tech" feel that drop troops armies tend to have.

Cameleoline + Light Infantry is one of the best combinationons floating around - it makes Guard armies very powerful in CoD games, or really any game with a decent amount of cover.

Combining Cameleoline + Carapace is iffy at best - it's pricey, and getting the most out of one tends to negate the advantages of the other. Plus, it means you're running around with 9pt Guardsmen - you're better off getting Grenadiers for that price, really.

azimaith
04-12-2007, 23:27
Well the guardsmen actually had:
Cameleoline, Carapace, Chem Inhalers.
They were rock hard and could deploy basically, right next to the enemy at the time (tau, which I fought alot earlier) and absorb fire like a sponge.

Voleron
05-12-2007, 00:12
Yes, but by that point you're essentially paying 10pts per guardsman. I'd rather not go into pages of points efficiency mathhammer, but I find that spending anything more than 8-9 pts per Guardsman means that you don't have enough numbers to be as effective as more numerous but lesser equipped guardsmen. Of course, that's just my opinion.

Cosmocrat
05-12-2007, 00:23
It really depends. Carapace is probably just as viable as non-carapace. I would save carapace for armies geared more towards maneuver,assault, or dropping, whereas with your average gunline guard, I would stick with Flak armor.

danscan
05-12-2007, 00:57
One thing that is commonly forgoten in the "is it worth equation" Can I put that many models on the board without throwing some of them out in the open in a bad position. Under 2000 on a normal board it is better to get more troops. Over 2000 on a normal board the carapace armour starts comming into it own because it makes your troops more resilient if they have to be left in the open somewhere.

I usually prefer the camo cloaks but I have had trouble on some boards where I had far too many troops and not enough cover.

Also the Grenidiar or Elite guard list is pretty fun to play. Alot more maneuverable.

BrotherAdso
05-12-2007, 01:51
Another important thing that seems to be forgotten in the discussion of point-efficiency is that not all fighting takes place 12-24", and when it does, your Guardsmen may well be in trouble anyhow. I've found Carapace frustrating because a large number of the casualties on my Guard are caused by things which Carapace is just wasted points against -- heavy bolters, autocannon, burst cannon, and the like. Carapace is really only going to increase your survival in a specific range band against specific weapons -- and outside of that it's just a real expensive birthday suit.

This makes it VERY useful for armies that do a lot of their work in that area -- like drop troopers and special weapon toting grenadiers. Doubly so because these troop types cannot always get into cover (where they want to be).

For armies which are more able to seek cover or do their work outside of the 24" rangeband as much as possible, Camelioline is a far more effective choice, mathematically and tactically. It also synergizes beautifully with Light Infantry.

-Adso

Cosmocrat
05-12-2007, 01:55
It is helpful to note that some of the problems with Guard is that there are just so frakking many of them that it crowds the deployment zone.

More is better, but to a point you know.

fwacho
05-12-2007, 01:58
4+ armor save without the acompanied increased BS is juts not worth it. if you want carpace armor use grenadier. your points are better used on more models (after all so much anti-MEQ out there that becoming more like them is a waste of resources.

also it's worth feilding a few cump squads to put out in the open. Why woudl I do that? for one, any shots at them are not shooting my lascnanon teams. they are free to move forward and seize obectives (if you only give them a gernade launcher they will be nearly ignored) guardsmen without upgrades are great cannon fodder and should be used as such. drawing fire away from better equiped squads is incredibly useful. plus you can put pressure on objective occaisonally getlucky with anice rapid fire round. (20 las gun shots will kill a termie or 3.)

Cosmocrat
05-12-2007, 02:02
Even with an increase in BS AND Carapace Armor, Stormtroopers just aren't worth it because of their Flashlights.

Veterans, who can rock the plasma 3 deep are where its at.

ComissarMagoo32587
05-12-2007, 03:06
From my past experiences playing as imperial guard, carapace armour is very crutial. I play as drop troop IG army and taking the carapace armour helped me alot drastically. It impoves your guys survivability drastically. Most basic guns can insta kill guard and thats very bad news. By maing your saves you will have a chance to save your guys instead of taking them off the board with no armour saves. In a 2500 point list that i have, I field over 150 imperial guardsmen with 36 plasma guns in total along with thre basilisks and a sentinel squadron with lascanoons.

if you want to go for a mechanized guard, the grenadier option is very good. You can upgrade your chimeras with heavy stubbers which gives you 3 strength 5 shots witht he multi laser, 3 heavy bolter shots, and three heavy stubber shots. Further more the carapace armour in included with them and you can take two special weapons. For low pont lists, the mechanized army works very well because tank killing weapons cost alot which gives you the survability of your tanks and your troops as well.

In conclusion, weather it's drop troops, mechanized, a mixture of both, carpace armour is reliable and versatile and improves your guards survability.

M1A2 Commander
05-12-2007, 04:38
What about Carapace, Mech, Grenadier? I was thinking of that combo to support my tanks. 3 IG squads and 2 ST full squads all in transports and the IG in Carapace.

Voleron
05-12-2007, 04:48
From my past experiences playing as imperial guard, carapace armour is very crutial. I play as drop troop IG army and taking the carapace armour helped me alot drastically. It impoves your guys survivability drastically. Most basic guns can insta kill guard and thats very bad news. By maing your saves you will have a chance to save your guys instead of taking them off the board with no armour saves. In a 2500 point list that i have, I field over 150 imperial guardsmen with 36 plasma guns in total along with thre basilisks and a sentinel squadron with lascanoons.
Drop Troop IG is probably the most effective application of Carapace. However, being something of a Horde player, I can say that when you have over 200 models in a 2,500pt game, the ability to soak up redonkulous nubers of casualties outweighs the survivability provided by carapace. Plus, it's not too much use outside of 24", and considering the size of the board needed at 2.5k, i'd doubt it's overall effectiveness. Nevertheless, for Mech or a DT army, it would defiitely see a lot more use, I agree on that point.



if you want to go for a mechanized guard, the grenadier option is very good.

Again, I agree. Although I would presonally prefer to field an AC with Armoured fist squads, each to his own...


You can upgrade your chimeras with heavy stubbers which gives you 3 strength 5 shots witht he multi laser, 3 heavy bolter shots, and three heavy stubber shots.

Multilasers are S6, not 5.



In conclusion, weather it's drop troops, mechanized, a mixture of both, carpace armour is reliable and versatile and improves your guards survability.

Yes, but like I said it won't do much good in a Horde-style army. Just pointing that out.

catbarf
05-12-2007, 10:43
At least we can agree that cyber-enhancement is completely useless...

logosloki
05-12-2007, 14:00
Another important thing that seems to be forgotten in the discussion of point-efficiency is that not all fighting takes place 12-24", and when it does, your Guardsmen may well be in trouble anyhow. I've found Carapace frustrating because a large number of the casualties on my Guard are caused by things which Carapace is just wasted points against -- heavy bolters, autocannon, burst cannon, and the like. Carapace is really only going to increase your survival in a specific range band against specific weapons -- and outside of that it's just a real expensive birthday suit.
-Adso

I do hope you were just mistaken about the burst cannon, otherwise someone is pulling your leg something serious, burst cannons are AP5.

I do find, on paper and form others at least since I never can really afford a guard army (I have serveral lists but most are on the expensive side) is that its all depends on the style of your guard.

Personally I would go with carapace and cameoline with mech or drop troops, but then I like bigger games so I have the points to spend out (on paper).