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Hrogoff the Destructor
04-12-2007, 22:37
This is a topic is for games you've seen or played that just made you mad beyond belief.

My GW has a good share of trashtalkers. But there is one individual in particular who takes whatever army is powergaming the most at moment, and buys and exact replica of it (or close to it). This inividual never thinks up an army simply on his own, and doesn't hesistate to resort to cheap tactics or cheating just to win. This person is about 21 years old.

Now a little kid, who's between 8-10 years old, enters the store with his father and wants to play a game. Just looking at him you know he has no idea how to play the game, and spends more time just playing with the models then figuring out how the game works. The employee's see if anyone is willing to play a game with the boy, and the aformentioned individual agrees. Knowing that the employees and people at the store are going to watch over the child, the father leaves to go shopping.

Now when you play someone that could be in the first grade, you darn well do your best to lose the game (while trying to give the kid some pointers he will undoubtably forget). It doesn't matter if your going by the rules, you should make some excuse for him to win.

As you could by now already guess, this individual doesn't do that. He decides to crush the little kids army as bad as humanly possible. Saying it was a massacre would be a complete understatement.

As expected, the little kid starts crying his little eyes out. If you watched him, you would swear his lifelong dreams were shattered along with his very will to live.

Now, my local GW has some scary employees, as in they aren't the kind of people you want to mess with. To put it very simply, he was kicked out of the store.

TheHaunted
04-12-2007, 22:43
alright i have a certain person at my store and he insists on cheating..... no blatently but you know nudgind models or terrain here, fudging his movement there, and the like.... he also plays tau...(groan) so any way a man at our store who plays ultramarines drop pod with tigurius and fear of darkness decides he wants to play him..... LONG story short he got so mad at his loss he threw a fire warrior at the ultra marine player... it was quite entertaining.

Grimtuff
04-12-2007, 22:45
Now, my local GW has some scary employees, as in they aren't the kind of people you want to mess with. To put it very simply, he was kicked out of the store.

Playing Devil's advocate here, but surely the staff are as much to blame as the gamer in question as if they knew he had this reputation then why have him play and not one of the staff members?

Malorian
04-12-2007, 22:49
I don't mind if my opponent doesn't know the rules, or tries to cheat (I won't let them). The thing that gets me is when I know I should be beating someone but simply because of bad luck I'm losing.

An example is when I spent a couple of turns drawing in a unit of witchelves and then charged them on 3 flanks. I knew I'd take some losses but with all the damage I'd cause on the charge I knew I'd win easily. Well I killed next to nothing and then he went into a killing spree that my armor saves refused to stop. So instead of killing off one of his best units but out playing them, the dice decided that a third of my army should be fleeing or run down... grrrr....

Hrogoff the Destructor
04-12-2007, 22:50
Playing Devil's advocate here, but surely the staff are as much to blame as the gamer in question as if they knew he had this reputation then why have him play and not one of the staff members?

Nobody expected that though. Who in their right mind would try to utterly annihilate a little kid that doesn't even know how to play the game?

My store has many power gamers who ruthlessly crush their opponents, but they all have a sense of decency when it comes to playing a little kid (or so I thought until I saw that).

Thoth62
04-12-2007, 22:52
Now when you play someone that could be in the first grade, you darn well do your best to lose the game (while trying to give the kid some pointers he will undoubtably forget). It doesn't matter if your going by the rules, you should make some excuse for him to win.

I strongly disagree. I may not be 10 years old anymore, but I seem to recall that at that age, (and for most people much older then that) I only really ever learnt anything if it went badly for me.

In doing that, you are doing the kid a double dis-service. You are not giving him any reasons to learn anything. Most poeple, if they win, or if something goes well, won't think twice about what they did wrong, and will just make the same mistakes over and over again. When you lose, you think about why you lost. Secondly, you better darn well be following the rules to the letter. What happens next time when he shows up and expects the same rules to be broken against a different opponent? Consistency is the key.

I'm not saying that you should do what this guy did. Far from it. What I am saying is that when introducing a younger player to the game, you need several things. Respect for your opponent, and for their playing level. Patience to deal with the inevitable snags that will occur when it comes to making sure that the rules are followed.

I'll agree that there is a little bit of a tightrope to walk in these situations. I'm not saying you should try and massacre the kid, I'm just trying to say that you shouldn't take it easy on them either.

Grimtuff
04-12-2007, 22:55
Nobody expected that though. Who in their right mind would try to utterly annihilate a little kid that doesn't even know how to play the game?

Erm, a powergamer. It's what they do....



My store has many power gamers who ruthlessly crush their opponents, but they all have a sense of decency when it comes to playing a little kid (or so I thought until I saw that).

So, let me get this straight. Your store has powergamers in it that many people consider to be utter twots yet they still get games in and the staff like them.

Maybe I go to a store that does not mince it's words but round here powergamers never get a game in and a reguarly insulted by the staff to their faces.

You come across in the original post as saying this guy is not liked at all yet the staff are happy for him to play a little kid :confused: That's like putting a Gazelle in a cage full of Lions because, you never know; the Lions may not be hungry.

TheHaunted
04-12-2007, 23:01
I strongly disagree. I may not be 10 years old anymore, but I seem to recall that at that age, (and for most people much older then that) I only really ever learnt anything if it went badly for me....Most poeple, if they win, or if something goes well, won't think twice about what they did wrong, and will just make the same mistakes over and over again. When you lose, you think about why you lost.

I really remember first starting to play when i was ten seeing as how im only 18 now and so i know that i never thought about the game afterwords i was TEN!!!!

Kahadras
04-12-2007, 23:09
I've seen a few bad things. The worst had to be where some tourney players ('nids) was gaming against a random young kid who looked pretty new to the hobby (Marines). The guy brusquely told the kid that he was preparing for a tourney that featured some suposedly 'special rules' and their game would therefore use these rules as he 'needed the practise'. The SM players was a bit dubious but every other table was taken and he wouldn't get a game otherwise so he agreed.

So the deployment starts. Aparantly one of the 'special rules' allows the attcking side ('nids) to deploy half way across the table and gives the first turn to the attacker. First turn everything in the Nid army charges forward. Flyrant reaches close combat. The Marine player gets one turn of shooting and then is swamped by the rest of the Nid army. The SM player seemed pretty resigned to being beaten by the end of the first turn. I didn't say anything but one of my mates did.

The nid player just kept on going 'tournament rules! tournament rules!' As my mate pointed out, it must be a tournament where everybody was playing 'nids.

Kahadras

Hrogoff the Destructor
04-12-2007, 23:12
So, let me get this straight. Your store has powergamers in it that many people consider to be utter twots yet they still get games in and the staff like them.

Maybe I go to a store that does not mince it's words but round here powergamers never get a game in and a reguarly insulted by the staff to their faces.

You come across in the original post as saying this guy is not liked at all yet the staff are happy for him to play a little kid :confused: That's like putting a Gazelle in a cage full of Lions because, you never know; the Lions may not be hungry.

The people vary. The staff don't like many of them, but they also like others. The problem is the power gamers are the store regulars. Our store manager also has an "unbeatable" ogre kingdoms army that attracts a lot of players (to challenge). And if he was there, that game would have never happened, as he would have seen what was going to happen from a mile a way.

I usually only go to the store when I go to play with my friends or my brother. I only play with people at that store that aren't super cocky and don't care if they win or lose.

There are two other stores I like to play at, for obvious reasons, but the drive is considerably longer (25 miles to the north, or 30 miles to the south).

natedogg710
04-12-2007, 23:17
There is a guy at my LGS who play 'nids and is annoying to play.

He used to set up a "wall" across the middle of the board with the terrain. We usually alternate setting up the terrain, so everytime he got a piece of terrain he would put in in the middle of the table. This essentially created a wall across the middle that blocked LoS, so he could move his 'nids half way up the table without being shot at.

He isn't allowed to do this anymore, but he still does some irritating things.

==Me==
04-12-2007, 23:36
Maybe not the worst thing ever, but in an Apocalypse game the entire enemy side used tunnelers and flank march. They basically skipped out on 2 turns and we still beat them (Ambush ftw :p)

ReDavide
04-12-2007, 23:38
I'm with Thoth62. Breaking the rules just to let someone win on account of their age is a bad idea.

Even if you decide to let him win, you shouldn't resort to breaking the rules to do it - it's perfectly easy to lose by using the normal ruleset. Don't take the objective. "Forget" to shoot with your deadliest units. Put your assaulty units in LOS and far from his shooty units and vice versa, and point out the opportunity he has to wipe out your squad.

There's a wide difference in skill & maturity levels in kids that age. Your objective should be to find those limits and push them just a tiny bit. Is he ok with losing individual models but uncomfortable losing a squad? Take out a squad or two and then let him win so that he can learn that a squad's loss isn't the end of the world. That sorta thing. That way both of you have the most exciting game possible under the circumstances, and he (hopefully) leaves the table a better gamer.

azimaith
05-12-2007, 00:00
Now when you play someone that could be in the first grade, you darn well do your best to lose the game (while trying to give the kid some pointers he will undoubtably forget). It doesn't matter if your going by the rules, you should make some excuse for him to win.

No, you don't try to lose as best you can. If you try to lose your not teaching him anything. If a player can't handle losing games, especially when they're first starting out they won't be good players later both due to lack of experience and the sense of entitlement you've attempted to inject into them. I regularly smushed players who were new, even young ones for their early games. Your advice afterward is much more convincing if you *won* the game after all.


As you could by now already guess, this individual doesn't do that. He decides to crush the little kids army as bad as humanly possible. Saying it was a massacre would be a complete understatement.

Thats what happens with little kids or new players, you tend to wipe them out. That doesn't mean anything in and of itself. For most of those games it would be difficult *not* to wipe them out without being insultingly soft on them.



As expected, the little kid starts crying his little eyes out. If you watched him, you would swear his lifelong dreams were shattered along with his very will to live.

Then the kid needs to (wo)man up. Hes too young to be playing if he starts bawling when he loses. My first game (I wasn't that young) was against a 10 man space marine squad with like 16 hormagaunts. The space marines were all the way across the board with bad cover and and the space marines were well entrenched with heavy weapons. The guy I was playing against is was a cheese ball ( learned it later). I didn't even reach combat with him and was totally gunned down before I came within striking distance. But then I learned from that. I learned that terrain is useless if its not in a position to be exploited/or your in a position to exploit it. I learned not to let opponents set up terrain on their own. I learned to compose an army list that covered its bases.

That guy might be guilty of being an overall ******, but he wasn't guilty of ruining some kids first game *solely by winning*


On topic:

Most infuriating game. I had seen a group of players on a games day fighting each other who didn't know any of the rules. I figured, thats fine, they're all new to the game and they all are learning to play. They had chaos dreadnaughts proxied with tinker toys, biovores with rending claws, brood lords with jump packs and monstrous creature zoanthropes.

Later I see them playing my friend, an iron warriors player (it just seemed to be an army that would draw in folks to chaos) fighting him. I came by the table and remarked: "Wow you're doing pretty well(to my friend), it looks like you've wiped out all his troops!"

Then my friend looks at me oddly and says: "I've only killed two models." and points to an obliterator left on its lonesome.

So I look at the other guy and ask him: "Playing demons huh?" He looks at me weird and says: "No, thats my entire army."

Silly me for being so dense, he had made an army with all elites/heavies/hqs and *no* troops choices at all. My friend was playing a well balanced iron warriors list (shooty, a couple bits of ordnance (2) and a squad of oblits, and this other guy had a completely illegal army.

That was irritating. You'd think people would learn the rules if they are playing outside a group of friends who don't.

Noserenda
05-12-2007, 00:02
gah, Cheats are usually easy enough to weed out, the Most frustrating game i ever played was a game of Bloodbowl against a player who would take MINUTES to decide every single little thing, sat back trying to look like a chessmaster...

He still lost, our game just took 2 hours to complete... :mad:

Kasonic
05-12-2007, 00:02
Back when my friends and I were still fresh our Necron player took a Monolith, Nightbringer, and 20 Warriors versus my Marines with a single Dreadnought and Missile Launcher in a 1000-point game.

The worst part was we assumed the Nightbringer moved as a Jetbike, because we didn't read the rules correctly(and it technically does say that!)

I was competely crushed by an unavoidable Nightbringer and lots of Flux Arc fire while his 20 warriors hid in the very corner of his deployment zone. It was very boring.

Warpcrafter
05-12-2007, 00:03
I got you all beat. I quit gaming at my local GW retailer about ten years ago because the regular gamers consisted of potheads who couldn't keep straight the differences between 40K and WFB, a pair of tween brothers who couldn't have a conversation without throwing out some sort of racist or homophobic remark and a whole herd of losers who actually had the nerve to be angry at me for making them look bad because I showed up with my fully painted plague marines, an army list and an insistance upon actually following the rules. Since then I've quadrupled the size of my chaos army and live in constant hope that the last of them will A: decide they've outgrown gaming B: earn their third strike or C: have to move back in with their parent who will throw away all of their gaming stuff. Sometimes all you can do is hope the stupidity works itself out.

Grimtuff
05-12-2007, 00:14
gah, Cheats are usually easy enough to weed out, the Most frustrating game i ever played was a game of Bloodbowl against a player who would take MINUTES to decide every single little thing, sat back trying to look like a chessmaster...

He still lost, our game just took 2 hours to complete... :mad:

Erm, that's why you play the 4 minute per turn time limit that it says in the Rulebook :rolleyes:;)



The worst part was we assumed the Nightbringer moved as a Jetbike, because we didn't read the rules correctly(and it technically does say that!)


No it doesn't :eyebrows:

Master Jeridian
05-12-2007, 00:46
Why should the aim be to patronise a new gamer by deliberately losing to them? Why does decieving them into thinking it's easy to win against someone who's played a lot longer aid them?

I agree that if the kid is really young (below the recommended 12+ for example) they are likely not going to take anything useful from being massacred other than to leave the game.
So it's best not to volunteer to play them.

jfjnpxmy
05-12-2007, 01:16
Why should the aim be to patronise a new gamer by deliberately losing to them? Why does decieving them into thinking it's easy to win against someone who's played a lot longer aid them?

Well a) the kid enjoys themself and might be more likely to take up the hobby and b) if you're not a complete Asperger's case it shouldn't really bug you to throw a game to them, so what's the harm?

Theblackprince
05-12-2007, 01:27
I always volunteer to play the new guys. The trick of it is not to think about it as a game but a teaching experience (Easy for me since I am a teacher). What I try to set up as many “situations” as I can. Shooting with no cover, shooting into cover, assault, vehicle shooting etc.. After a while in the game when they seem to have a good grasp on the rules then I start play “smarter” and do what I would normally do to win. People I have played love this. They feel that it is both a “real” game and a teaching session.

Most infuriating game was against a guy at a tournament I went to. The special rules in play doomed my force from the start. My opponent just could not shut up about how the battle was “just like pickets charge”. I had to listen to him brag about how bad he was beating me for 2 hours straight

Quentin
05-12-2007, 01:35
That's a pretty good way to play a Newbie game, theblackprince. Like an actual tutorial. I like that approach.

tarrin
05-12-2007, 01:43
My old store used to have a chap who would only play the 'kids'. he would act all tactically knowledgeable and "help' them with tactics, which mainly involved getting his own army into a winning position.
Example:
"hey, if it was me, i would charge this unit as they are the biggest threat for you" followed by "didn't i mention that they have 4 attacks and power weapons"

He would continually hark on how he would win games and was undefeated. When other gamers would offer to help out the kids he would get all upset on how they were helping out.
Everyone was getting annoyed with him, but he wasn't cheating as such, just playing unfair.

It took me 3 months to finally pin him down for a game as he would dodge any real opposition. It took a cleared table halfway through a session and me waiting as the only opposition to get him to play (even though he tried to leave after beating a 9yr old in a 1000 pt game). The kid was upset as he had dumb luck as well as a poor tabel setup. I had just been thwapped by a nice blood angel force so i was not in the mood to take prisoners
I challenged him saying "come on play someone who knows tactics..." the rest of the store clamoured for it, and he was forced to play.

1500 point game.
My WH vs His Khorne

Some memorable quotes were:

"What do you mean your assassin can shoot my greater daemon host out of a unit? On a 2+? let me see the rules"

"You are going to charge my Khorne termies?" Snorts derisively "These acroflaggents things you have won't stand a chance. I have 6 powerfists in there"

" What do u mean i have to attack this empty rhino... i want to charge your men"

By turn 4 it was all over. His bloodthirster failed its instability in 1st turn and his khorne happily blood frenzying away were led a merry chase. The acros vs termies was particularly pleasing with the sweet quotes "how many power weapons wounds?"

Brother Fenix
05-12-2007, 01:48
Now a little kid, who's between 8-10 years old, enters the store with his father and wants to play a game. Just looking at him you know he has no idea how to play the game, and spends more time just playing with the models then figuring out how the game works. The employee's see if anyone is willing to play a game with the boy, and the aforementioned individual agrees. Knowing that the employees and people at the store are going to watch over the child, the father leaves to go shopping.

Well, first to respond to the initial poster:

1) I have kids, and I would never leave my 8-10 year old alone at a GW store unless I was really close to one of the adult employees and I would check with them first to make sure it was ok that my child stay there unattended, because I think it is irresponsible for an adult to drop off their kids at some store just so the store employees can baby sit him while I go shopping.

2) If my son was more interested in playing with the models then playing the game, I would give him some models to play with, and when he is actually interested in playing, I would introduce him to the game, not by taking him to the store and finding an opponent, I would take time to show him myself.

Having said all that, I am a little biased toward young children (12 and under) and the hobby. If they want to play the game, that is one thing, but if they want to use the models as action figures, then don't try to put them up against someone who actually enjoys playing (even though in this case the guy sounds like a *$#&!)

One of the most infuriating games I ever played, must have been about 10 or 11 years ago. It was in a tournament and we were playing second addition with all of the "Warp" cards for psychic abilities. Anyway, a father brought his son to the tournament and when I would attempt to play a card, such as "Daemonic Attack" or "Destroy Power" or the like, the son would tell his father that I had that card in my hand before his father would play his psychic ability. On top of this, the guy was playing eldar and at the time there was no rules for one of the grav tanks, it might have been the Falcon, but the store allowed armorcast equivalents. So this same guy used the grav tank and essentially made up his own rules and put all his wraith guard inside the thing and let them shoot out the windows. What's more unbelievable is that the referees at the store allowed it. On top of it because of the rules this guy came up with, the tank was pretty much indestructible, and that is the most infuriating game I have ever played.

Voleron
05-12-2007, 01:51
On top of it because of the rules this guy came up with, the tank was pretty much indestructible, and that is the most infuriating game I have ever played.

Sooooo... he was basically playing with a 4th. Ed Falcon, then. :p

Hand of Dume
05-12-2007, 02:06
kid's that age have a very short attention span as it is, so why not "throw" the game to keep that interest (as small as it may be) in the kid for the game. having kids of my own, i know that if you don't allow them to win on occasion at first, they totally lose interest. if a "veteran" player can't afford a loss to a small child, then they thenselves have some severe insecurity issues!

Imperialis_Dominatus
05-12-2007, 02:22
Sooooo... he was basically playing with a 4th. Ed Falcon, then. :p

Straight up gold. Thanks, Voleron.

On topic, I've been fortunate never to have a really infuriating game, but if I ever came across some of the situations here... woe betide those who incur my wrath. :D

Ordo Ouroboros
05-12-2007, 02:32
Gah

I find some of my funniests moments come from when I'm on the loosing side. Win or loose I enjoy it. I just wish that for some it wasn't just about the winning

crooked
05-12-2007, 03:08
Excellent, the first two posts made me flat out laugh. You should let the little kid win, like others said, to keep his intrest in the game and then he might actually pick up the hobby, you can teach him how to play better later...

spaint2k
05-12-2007, 03:23
I'm in the camp that says teach the child how to play. Give him advice on how to move, what to shoot, let him take back bad plays and so on. I think there's no point losing outright to him, and I equally think there's no point in wiping him out.

Steve

TheNZer
05-12-2007, 03:26
At my Club myself and another guy were playing a game it was a fun game an I think I was winning (just) when this kid a few years younger than me comes over,about thirty minutes before he'd tried to cheat and I'd called him up for it.

Most of the people in the Club are over in the far end of the hall playing a game of Apoc so there's only a few teenagers around my table. The guy has two Fantasy Models which he procedes to make them 'Rape' each other.

I was getting pretty annoyed as it was disturbing our game and he was being a jerk, when he starts going on about how he had Raped my mother.

Now i'm a good head taller than him and I told him to shut up, he asked me what I was going to do and I mentioned to him that I could easily beat him in a fight if he didn't shut up.

After that he goes back to 'raping his models' and left soon after but boy he pissed me off.

Master Jeridian
05-12-2007, 03:26
I'm going to get hate mail for this, but why exactly do I the gamer have to teach little kids to play?

When I do get to play a game, I want to the time and effort I put into learning the rules, painting my army and facing my opponent to be worth it.
To that end, I wouldn't volunteer to 'lose to the newbie'.

The other aspect is, that a lot of kids, especially those with the concentration to even consider something like a tabletop wargame in an era of instant gratification computer games, TV, etc are not complete idiots.
When I started at 12, I would certainly know if someone was intentionally losing to me.

It just doesn't aid anyone, it gives the kid this false belief that he's always going to win, since he's just beaten a more experienced player, and it gives all his future opponents someone who get's confused when you don't charge him with your Dev's.

This is not to say you should pull out every tournament trick in the book, wipe the kids army of the board then do a victory dance in his face.
I'd explain all the rules as we went along, advise him when he's making a rules mistake, explain what my unit can do, and what will happen if he performs an action ("You could move those Dev's forward, but if you do they can't shoot the missile launchers.", etc).

But I would never insult my opponent by trying to lose.

Rathillir
05-12-2007, 03:41
That's a pretty good way to play a Newbie game, theblackprince. Like an actual tutorial. I like that approach.

I second that. If it's obvious the kid doesn't know how to play, wouldn't it be more productive to have fun teaching him/her how to play better? I might be biased because I enjoy teaching people, but it doesn't always have to be a chore. After that, then you take the training wheels off and give 'em a chance to kill some of your models in a real game. Compliment their kills and laugh at your bad rolls. It's all about building confidence.

If the kid does know how to play, then you just run the risk of losing to a 12-year-old. Watch out :D

Vaktathi
05-12-2007, 03:48
I've played several games where the dice just consistently fail me and I can't seem to hit, wound, penetrate, save, pass leadership, or roll difficult terrain, and it's very frustrating when you are in a winning position and then you just roll nothing but 1's and 2's and flubb the last two turns because of it through no fault of your command ability. I'm sure everyone has had at least a couple of these.


However, a new guy at our store arrived a couple months ago, and has a crapton of (very badly painted) Blood Angels. Now, I offered to play him with my very non-competitive IG after he asked for a game, and I had already read through the new Blood Angels codex which he claimed to be using. After the game starts I notice he's not using Combat Squads, still rolling for Blood Rage and using Furious Charge and his 18" Rhino assault as well as the new Mephiston and Rending Death Company. Needless to say he wiped out my IG with his BA army that cherry-picked the best rules from both books, but I made a mental note halfway through the game never to play him again, and every time I brought up the inconsistencies he would just say "oh I don't remember, it keeps referencing X codex instead of saying it, etc..." and didn't even have a copy of the codex on him. Add to this that the extent of his painting was drowning marines in red paint and roughly painting their heads blue/yellow/white and looking like total crap makes it even worse. Unpainted/basecoated is one thing, at least if you are making slow progress but the results look passable. Intentionally crappy, no effort, terrible looking painting is worse.

He either deliberately ignores or doesn't know half the rules (an infantryman in an Area 3 terrain piece cannot fire a missile over an Area 3 tank even if he is physically higher, trying to assault THREE DIFFERENT units in a sort of "y": shaped assault path without moving everything possible into base to base contact with something, etc...)

After seeing him a few weeks later playing an apocalypse game (with a horribly painted BA baneblade, which by itself would irk me to the highest levels of "NEEERD RAAAGE!") he also assumed that the "no FoC" rule meant he could break unit rules, like deploying a single IG mortar instead of deploying them as Mortar teams in units of 3 (effectively this is the same as deploying each single heavy weapons Marine as his own unit) and other such flubbery.

Polonius
05-12-2007, 04:01
Nobody has to teach kids to play, but it helps build the hobby. While teaching first games is tough, I really enjoy playing newer players with relativly toothless lists. Small Assault squads, large tactical squads, Rhinos, etc. While I don't play to lose, I like to stack the odds as high in the favor of the new guy as possible.

PotatoLegs
05-12-2007, 04:06
I'm going to get hate mail for this, but why exactly do I the gamer have to teach little kids to play?

When I do get to play a game, I want to the time and effort I put into learning the rules, painting my army and facing my opponent to be worth it.
To that end, I wouldn't volunteer to 'lose to the newbie'.

The other aspect is, that a lot of kids, especially those with the concentration to even consider something like a tabletop wargame in an era of instant gratification computer games, TV, etc are not complete idiots.
When I started at 12, I would certainly know if someone was intentionally losing to me.

It just doesn't aid anyone, it gives the kid this false belief that he's always going to win, since he's just beaten a more experienced player, and it gives all his future opponents someone who get's confused when you don't charge him with your Dev's.

This is not to say you should pull out every tournament trick in the book, wipe the kids army of the board then do a victory dance in his face.
I'd explain all the rules as we went along, advise him when he's making a rules mistake, explain what my unit can do, and what will happen if he performs an action ("You could move those Dev's forward, but if you do they can't shoot the missile launchers.", etc).

But I would never insult my opponent by trying to lose.

I don't see why you'd receive hate mail. You don't want to teach kids, fair enough, I don't think I'd want to either. The people who've got more of a vested interest in introducing the next generation to the game are the employees of GW and I think they're specially vat-bred to do this.

But if you're inclined to include an inexperienced person, doesn't even have to be a child, I'd be lenient myself in introducing them to the system. Its an incredibly daunting set of rules and it just makes sense to, not necessarily hand them a win, but make things as simple as possible from the outset

natedogg710
05-12-2007, 04:46
I typically don't play young players, as they usually don't know the rules and are very annoying. However, on occasion I will run a newbie through a game if they aren't too annoying and are interested in learning the rules.

If you don't want to teach little kids to play, then you don't have too. No one is going to hold it against you that you didn't teach annoying 10 year old Jonny how to play.

bloodlust
05-12-2007, 05:30
My most enfuriating game was actually against my local game store owner. He offered to play a friendly 2000 point game against me, as I had shown up to play some 40k and no one else was there.

His ultramarine list consisted of 6 razorbacks that had twin-linked lascannons, each having a six man marine squad with a missile launcher and plasma gun, and power sword equipped sarge. Other than that, he had 2 regular dreadnaughts with twin linked lascannons and an identically equipped venerable dreadnaught. His HQ was the commander that gives all your men ld10 attached to a squad. He had another 5 man squad which sat in cover way out of the way so he could claim possession of a table quarter, as we played Cleanse.

Needless to say, this list is powergaming in high fare. Call me a fluff fan, but I could never imagine such a force actually being sent out, especially as adeptus astartes. Better yet were his tactics- sit, and shoot. Taking a fairly fluffly Word Bearers force, I mostly had icon-equipped troops, some terminators, a small havoc squad and close combat marines in rhinos. All my heavy support was dead on turn 2, and by turn four only a 14 man squad and 3 lesser daemons were left.

Compounding this, my rolls were abominable. In a combat in which 8-9 chaos men engaged one of his six-man squads, I would get one hit, and he would make all the saves after I wounded. In addition, he made a few offhand and mildly snide comments about the army itself and more or less told me the game was over at turn four and packed up.

I guess that some people only have fun when they win so thoroughly the other player didn't really get a chance to?

Orbital
05-12-2007, 05:58
Now a little kid, who's between 8-10 years old, enters the store with his father and wants to play a game...

He decides to crush the little kids army as bad as humanly possible. Saying it was a massacre would be a complete understatement.
Dude. I thought I had a horrible story to add to this thread, but yours beats mine hands-down. What a horrible thing to do.


I strongly disagree. I may not be 10 years old anymore, but I seem to recall that at that age, (and for most people much older then that) I only really ever learnt anything if it went badly for me.
Years ago when I was a camp counselor, I knew this other counselor who was in charge of the programs at the camp. He said he had three rules for the kids, and they were as follows (in order of importance):
1. Keep the kid safe
2. Give the kid a fun time
3. Help the kid learn something
I subscribe to this philosophy when it comes to teaching kids how to play 40k. It's all fine and well to take on that "How's he gonna learn if he doesn't taste the cold chill of defeat?" attitude when talking about 10-year-olds, but this situation is different: This is about a 21 year old guy who knew the rules pounding the living crap out of some poor little kid who just wanted to have some fun. It wasn't about teaching dick all to a kid or helping him learn something valuable. Now... that kid's parents are probably going to be very reluctant to let him play again, and that's if he even wants to. The odds of him sticking with the hobby are pretty low now... all so that one jerk could feel like a tough guy by beating up on a little kid.

On a side note... I'm a parent of two kids, ages 7 and 10. In their lives there are things they have to do whether they want to or not. They don't get to choose or decide. Warhammer isn't one of those things. With their hobbies, I work on helping them love it first and then I "toughen them up". If you do it in the opposite order, they won't stick with it. At that age, that's not how it works.

cuda1179
05-12-2007, 05:58
Two of the most annoying games I ever played were against the same person. Keep in mind that the guy I was playing is usually a VERY likeable guy. I actually look up to him as he has nicely painted armies, knows the rules, helps out newbs, and has a pretty great attitude.

However I managed to play games against him in two consecutive weeks were the "probability gods" laughed in his face. These are those times when even the best people can get so frustrated that they sadden the people around them.

Basically in the first game it was 2,000 points of my Necron vs his World Eaters (last edition chaos codex). He had a ton of Berserkers in one spot, so I deepstruck a Monolith on them and they did nothing for 5 turns while trying to beat on it with a single powerfist. Basically, anthing that was a threat (and could actually move towards my army) came at me piecemeal and I aimed everything I had at one squad at a time.


The next week was My same necron list against his Tau. (Anyone remember that 3rd editon scenario where one side had to set up EVERYTHING in a 6 inch wide corridor down the center of the board?) Well, I had to footslog over three feet in 6 turns (pretty hard) while avoiding his incoming fire. The deck was stacked heavily against me. He rolled so bad the first turn he only killed three warriors and a destroyer. On my turn I took out three heavy support units, his HQ, and half his troops. He immeditaly ended the game and walked out.

For weeks I thought he hated me. I felt horrible I ruined his night.

Escaflowne_Z
05-12-2007, 06:13
If I had to pick a single most infuriating game, it would be a game that occurred during my 3rd tournament. Playing against a nicely painted Ravenwing/Deathwing army (old rules, I found out the list was illegal after the game). The game is Take and Hold.

It's down to the 4th turn, and he finally gets his deepstrikers down. So he plonks down a Land Raider. Even as a tournament newbie, I knew something was fishy. I questioned him about it, and he said that the Terminators inside the Land Raider could deepstrike, therefore their transport option could as well. I still smelled something fishy, so I called the judge over at my LGS. After hearing both sides, he decided to allow the Land Raider to deepstrike at the objective because he "remembered an old rule from an old codex or WD" about it. The two weren't in cahoots or anything, just flat out dumb.

Turn 5, my termies' chainfist cracks open the Land Raider, but the wreck is sitting right on the only way up onto the hill that was the objective.

Turn 6, my termies are struggling to get through the wreckage of the Land Raider, and his wounded Ravenwing master on bike zooms in to take the objective (yes, I found out after the game that ICs can't hold objectives). Even with that much inane stupidity, I had the game won! But I didn't know it, so the RW/DW guy won the game and the tournament because of it, IIRC. :(

theshadowduke
05-12-2007, 06:13
I have to agree with TheblackPrince. That is how I teach games.

My most infuriating game was when I was teaching a kid (7-9) to play, his mom is sitting there watching us play. I won, but only because he was rolling horribly. The whole time he was whining about not having the models he wanted because his mom wouldn't buy them, while his mom said they just couldn't afford to buy all of the models.

When I suggested a paper route, his mom agreed that it seemed like a good idea, but he screamed no, that he would just quit the hobby.

I felt sorry for his mom.

Burning Star IV
05-12-2007, 06:17
So far as the teaching kids to play thing goes...well, I don't have the patience. A new player though, sure. I usually just explain before the game that as they're new and I'm more experienced, the game will probably not end in their favor, and during the game I allow them to make terrible tactical mistakes, but then I give them helpful advice.

Most infuriating moment? Nothing too horrible, just some guy screaming in an accusatory tone that my dice rolls were so much better than is for six turns straight. It was true, sure. Are consistent bad rolls annoying? Yes. Worth yelling about? Probably not. Maybe I'm just more easy going than some, but when I roll more 1's than 4+'s, I generally just say "daaannnngg. oh well." I mean, you can always play another match.

Orbital
05-12-2007, 06:33
So far as the teaching kids to play thing goes...well, I don't have the patience.
That's totally cool... so long as you then say "Someone else should play this kid", not "I think I'll play him and beat his ass".

I <3 W
05-12-2007, 06:56
hmm iyt seems that Im like way younger than everyone here...anyways my 5 chaos termie camps charged at some guardsmen, tropped on pebles and got aniahlated, They stood there moving 1" every turna and getting shnot with lasguns and plasma.

CassiusDraconis
05-12-2007, 06:59
I think the most important thing to teach kids in their first few games is sportsmanship and respect. If they learn that the object of the game is to have fun and to make sure the person they are playing is having fun too then they are more likely to have fun no matter if they win or lose. This is important because they are going to be playing against other kids a lot of the time and so they need to be able to get along even if they are not winning. The other thing I try to teach is the most basic stuff. Movement with basic models, how to roll the dice so that they don't knock over a bunch of models and how to measure so that they don't look like they are cheating or knocking models around. These are the things that are going to stick with a kid more. The fact is too, that they will pick up on whether you are trying to let them win. The trick therefore is not to let them win, but to help them win. Do your best reasonably with your army, but also do your best to help them with their army against yours. Show them how to win against your army, but let them make the choices. If they make bad choices, let their army pay for it that turn. Next turn, show them again. Let them choose again. explain what happened last turn and how they can prevent it. Let them play with their models some too. If they want to pick a figure up and have it trash talk your figure that it killed, let them have some fun. At the same time, help them to understand that there is a limit to this and that some people will not like it. Remember that your goal is not just to help them to become better players, but also to become better members of your gaming community. If you don't talk down to them and cut them a little slack, them most kids interested in learning to play will have fun and will remember more about the game.

Tehkonrad
05-12-2007, 08:53
when i was wee young un i had one of the most enjoyable games ever...but infuriating for my opponent (this is in whfb sorry :( )

I was playing brettonians in a siege against beastmen it s a long tale but it involved uber bowman accuracy a beastlord being slain by a squire and a huge unit of minotaurs running away unfortunatley i used up all my luck for the next 2 years :(

Glennie
05-12-2007, 11:40
his wounded Ravenwing master on bike zooms in to take the objective (yes, I found out after the game that ICs can't hold objectives)

The Master of the Ravenwing isn't an IC.

The only infuriating games I've had have been with players who lost interest midway through a game.

Komnenos
05-12-2007, 11:57
I try not to play against children for various reasons, the main ones being that they don't know the rules, they are usually annoying, and for some reason I am expected to lose so I can provide them with what? Encouragement? A good time? It is not my position or responsibility to either teach them or introduce them further into the hobby and I feel that they can play against other children until they grow older and can participate in normal gaming. I try to make the game fun as I do against everyone, but I don't see why I should handicap myself for their benefit. It is also a bit creepy to play against them.

That said, my most infuriating game was against this ... kid. 2k points of 40k at his insistence (you'll see why in just a bit), his IG versus my SoB (with some GK reinforcements as we usually play 1.5k points). Before we set up he asks "mind if I use some FW stuff?" to which I replied "not at all". I thought he was going to place some sort of Leman Russ variant or something to that effect, but no, he pulls out a Baneblade and another super heavy tank (the new one with lots of heavy bolters and a demolisher cannon).

We then go ahead and start placing scenery. He just placed buildings forming an almost continuous line in one of the deployment zones. When I ask him to roll for a mission he says "uhh, can't we just kill each other?". Riiiiiight... The mission we rolled for was Reckon, which I found very amusing,given our armies' compositions. Then he tried to claim the side with all the buildings, but we rolled for them, as per the mission rules. Unfortunately I lost, but it would have been pretty funny if he was forced to deploy in the side with almost no cover, just to teach him a lesson in scenery etiquette.

We start the deployment, lo and behold, with the placement he chose there was not enough space for both of his super heavies (let me just mention here that even though we were not playing an Apocalypse game, he did not use the IA rules for the baneblade but rather the apoc ones). I felt a bit sorry for him so I allowed half the baneblade to hover off the table.

We start playing, abysmal tactics, strategy, and target selection, the way he put his super heavies he could not turn them as they were blocked by the table "edge" and each other, so he attempted to move them around 15'' to allow them to shoot, various other annoyances, you get the picture. In the fourth round he just gave up because he was losing badly, another annoyance.

Never saw that kid again. Did I turn him away from the hobby? I don't know nor care. Hopefully I gave him a healthy respect for the rules, as that little twerp basically wanted to play a mission with no rules, a normal army versus one with 2 super heavies, while the rest of his army was fortified in a line of buildings with little terrain left on the rest of the board. Do you know what that tells me? That he was just looking for someone to rape. Good riddance. That's why I don't like playing against children; I'd take a cheesy powergamer any day over that hassle.

Wagesage
05-12-2007, 12:29
My most infuriating game was back in 2nd edition. I played imperial guard and I set up in typical newbie gun line formation. My enemy then played the virus outbreak strategem on me. Game over. The virus went from one end of my line to the other and left almost nothing.

Master Jeridian
05-12-2007, 12:31
That's one of my infuriating game things- when you turn up to play someone you haven't played before and they look at you funny for mentioning 'Missions'- what the hell are those?

Best example, I walked into a store I hadn't been to for years looking for a game.
I was the 'newbie' and 'that guy' agreed to play- you know, the guy with the smug look on his face and a huddled group of acolytes proclaiming his fighting prowess.

He brings out an Armoured Company, I bring out my Marine list.

First of all the crowd is shocked when I spread terrain out evenly across the board, including the middle- rather than have an open field between to entrenched deployment zones.

Second, I inform him I'm rolling for missions- we get Recon, much explaining about what this is, what a Level is (gamma), etc later we begin.

As expected I have very little that can scratch a wall of AV 14 whilst the multiple return Ordnance weapons are brutal, I know that if he sits in his DZ all I can do is hide, try to pick a tank off or two but ultimately scrape a draw or minor loss.

His second turn, he asks me to remind him of mission. He then proceeds to rush all his tanks 12" forward, regardless of terrain. I have to explain the Dangerous Terrain rules and how 12" movement stops him shooting (having probably never had to Move his tanks), and a number of tanks are Immobilised out of LOS.

He continues this mad dash for the rest of the game, whilst my army takes shots at the side and rear Armour as they pass by.
Needless to say there weren't many tanks left and I won the game.

kiwichild
05-12-2007, 12:54
Hmmmmm alot of the posts in this thread seem to do with kids. Some of the most frustrating games I have had have been against fully grown tournament plays outside of tournaments. The uber-most frustrating game I have ever had was a against a 30-something nursing student at my local club back in New Zealand. They fielded a fully mounted orc and gobbo force that they had tuned for tournaments. If memory serves me right it was 2000pt game. Anyways this person never seemed to get games and being new to the club I took pity and accepted the game. My force was a Tzeentch mortal force (uber-killer knights, 3x 15 units of marauders, 2x chariots and 3 chaos spawn) facing a horde of boarboys,chariots and wolfriders. I have always enjoyed the converting/painting side of hobby, hence I had spent months building and painting my force. Their army was sprayed brown, with dabs of green on skin areas and boltgun metal on weapons. First frustration point! Being so heavily outnumbered I deployed a spawn on each flank, supported by a unit of marauders and a chariot each, with the rest of the army holding the center. I figured he`d be across the table quick enough so I`ll sit back and wait. Resigned to getting swamped I figured WTF.

They got first turn and by turn 2 I was getting ready to get hit hard. The spawns had made some good movement rolls and had crashed into some wolfrider units, who failed their fear tests and ran for it. As they ran past another gobbo unit, I was feeling good for the next unit breaking. They first tried to ignore me pointing out that the unit had to LD test for a fleeing unit. After me finally getting him to acknowledge the fact he tried to rule bend. Frustration points +2! Granted the unit failed it`s LD test and fled setting off a chain reaction of panic along the whole line of wolfrider untis in his army. Upon pointing out that he had to continue testing he tried the exact same rule bending again. This guy tried to pull the same BS three times in a row, after having being caught out on his very first attempt. Certain that he was correct he pulled in some neutral gamers to clarify the rule, they sided with me. Well as turn 3 rolled around he declared charges with the remainder of his units only to come up short on his measurements leading alot of failed charges, one charge was out by 1/2 an inch so I said not a prob feeling sorry for his loss of his gobbos. The combat worked out horrible for him and the boarboyz broke and fled. The true kicker of frustration is turn 4 I finally charged my knights into his mega/super duper/warlord/battlestandard boarboys, it was a flank charge with nearly 3 inches of movement to spare. By this point he was sulking and whinging like a 5 yr old and started pulling out all the stops of rule bending to try invalidate the flank charge and claiming that I over measured the distance. At this point I just told him you win, proceeded to pack up my army and headed of to watch some other games. The veteran members of the club later reminded me there was a reason he only got tournament games, cause nobody at the club could be bothered with his infantile antics. Yet he showed up every week trying to get games, he had no idea about his lack of ettiqute.:wtf:

Slaaaaaanesh
05-12-2007, 13:10
I remember watching a few 'introductory' games and win or loose the games usually get the kid gamers hooked as the spirit of the game is the thing that is sold to them. i.e. the excitement of the battle by the GW staff narrating the game, the build up to important or decisive dice rolls.

I agree with the thread starter that although you don't go out of your way to lose, crushing someone in their first attempt at playing anything is a sure fire way of putting off those who were curious.

Bookwrak
05-12-2007, 13:21
Comments about having to lose to kids and new players are simply ridiculous. There is only one really important rule in that kind of situation, and that is making sure the other player has fun. You don't bring your A-game against someone who can't tell an armor save from an instability test. No wonder the kid burst into tears. It would've been been intensely frustrating for an adult to be continually told, 'now that guys dies, and that one, and that one. No, you can't do anything to stop it. That guy over there dies too. No, you can't hurt me back,' much less an eight year old.

It's foolish to say you _have_ to throw the game, but you should be more than willing to let them make a mistake or two or leave an opening and not immediately fall upon their soft underbelly and tear it asunder.

Stingray_tm
05-12-2007, 13:28
I don't like "giving away" victories. No matter to whom. It's a sign of disrespect, especially if he finds out.

But i do this, if i know beforehand, that the player has less experience:
- Make an army list with units i wouldn't use in a tournament list. Not useless units, but underpowered ones, i seldom use. (e.g. Ripper Swarms).
- chose a mission, that gives the other player a slight advantage
- warn the new player, if he is going to commit a major tactical error and remind him, if he obviously forgot something (like shooting with a unit)

If he loses, he shouldn't get the feeling, that i was out to crush him, while if he wins, he shouldn't get the feeling, that i had let him win.

My most infuriating game:
In fact i have two:
1. One of my first games in a new store with this:
A. The enemy knowing my (balanced) Nid army list before playing. (He saw, that i was a swarm player).
B. The terrain was presetup in favour of shooty armies (a lot of three story buildings in both deployment zones)
C. The enemy player was a IW power gamer (7 Obliterators, 4 tanks, daemon prince, etc.), while his teammate was an IG player with 5 tanks.
D. The enemy set up all his infantry in the topmost level of the building, giving him overview over the whole map
E. The enemy encouraged our team to "start deploying", because they weren't done with their army lists, so in fact they deployed their army after we had deployed everything
F. After a massacre i asked the player, what i should have done in order to have a chance against these odds. The answer was: "Nothing. Tyranids just suck."

2. My first tournament game ever. With a player, who didn't know the Tyranid rules and implicitely accused me of cheating several times ("Spore mines with AP3? Show me the Codex." - "Your Carnifex can't shoot me, he is facing the wrong direction. It doesn't behave like tanks? Please show me your Codex." - "You don't need to roll for Warp Blast? Please show me your Codex" - "Oh, so you have the English Codex..." (i am German)). At the same time 3 friends of him came over and gave him tips how to beat me. I lost (but not because of this). I was almost done with the tournament szene, but the next player, while usinig a Space Marine Asscannon list and shooting me into little pieces (massacre) was a lot of fun to play against (very relaxed, reminding me of mistakes and offering me to move models after i forgot to move them) so in the end my first tournament experience was okay anyway :)

cazzz669
05-12-2007, 13:35
most annoying game was my DKOK vs nids, fiurst round and i had 2 basilisks and much artillery, nothing and i do meant nothing hit. ANYTHING

Deadmanwade
05-12-2007, 14:18
There hasnt been any one defining infuriating moment that I can think of, but when my opponents tau battlesuits keep jumping behind cover it irritates the hell out of me. Of course, thats what a good tau player does but couldnt he just stand still and get shot once?
However, if he takes more than 2 casualties in one turn its like the end of the world and he throws his dice around in frustration.

Joewrightgm
05-12-2007, 14:26
For myself its watching 'baby seal hunting'; which is the veterans (IE, 2nd ed players) dropping a power list on some unsuspecting 12 year old.

They don't really teach the kid anything, they just mercilessly curb stomp them, and wander off to find a new game.

Grand Warlord
05-12-2007, 14:46
Well for me:

Me and 2 other friends, 1000 points each, vs. 3 people we had never met.

well it turned out they brought 4500 points worth of crap and well we managed a draw.

Thoth62
05-12-2007, 14:46
Years ago when I was a camp counselor, I knew this other counselor who was in charge of the programs at the camp. He said he had three rules for the kids, and they were as follows (in order of importance):
1. Keep the kid safe
2. Give the kid a fun time
3. Help the kid learn something
I subscribe to this philosophy when it comes to teaching kids how to play 40k. It's all fine and well to take on that "How's he gonna learn if he doesn't taste the cold chill of defeat?" attitude when talking about 10-year-olds, but this situation is different: This is about a 21 year old guy who knew the rules pounding the living crap out of some poor little kid who just wanted to have some fun. It wasn't about teaching dick all to a kid or helping him learn something valuable. Now... that kid's parents are probably going to be very reluctant to let him play again, and that's if he even wants to. The odds of him sticking with the hobby are pretty low now... all so that one jerk could feel like a tough guy by beating up on a little kid.

On a side note... I'm a parent of two kids, ages 7 and 10. In their lives there are things they have to do whether they want to or not. They don't get to choose or decide. Warhammer isn't one of those things. With their hobbies, I work on helping them love it first and then I "toughen them up". If you do it in the opposite order, they won't stick with it. At that age, that's not how it works.

I agree completely with what you're saying, but I feel that I have to clarify something. I never once said that I agreed with or thought that what this guy did was right. In fact:


I'm not saying that you should do what this guy did. Far from it. What I am saying is that when introducing a younger player to the game, you need several things. Respect for your opponent, and for their playing level. Patience to deal with the inevitable snags that will occur when it comes to making sure that the rules are followed.

I'll agree that there is a little bit of a tightrope to walk in these situations. I'm not saying you should try and massacre the kid, I'm just trying to say that you shouldn't take it easy on them either.

I have absolutely no problem having a game against a younger player, and I can guaruntee you that I will try and focus on making sure that they have a good time playing. I tend to have a good time much more often when my opponent is also having a good time.

If you're having a game with someone who is new to the game, don't go all out and try a slaughter them as badly as possible. Make it an enjoyable experience for both of you. Make it a learning experience. Because that's the only way that the young 'un is going to get better. By learning. And often that entails showing them what they are doing wrong as much as what they are doing right.

But I'm going to repeat again what I've already said. The last thing you should be doing is trying to lose.

Engulfer of Cakes
05-12-2007, 14:53
It's a shame about some of these kid stories, as I often will watch some newbies fight each other and occasionally give help in the resulting questions of 'What do I need to hit?'...
It generally helps me remember the rules and helps them remember too... Helps everyone...

I remember a frustrating game against a guy with golden (yep) Nids... That's all I can remember apart from him being quite whiney when I was shooting him with my Marines...

False Fable
05-12-2007, 14:54
My frustrating games are usually against children. One of two things (sometimes both) seems to happen in these games:

1) The kid is offered a chance to play, and it just so happens that the suggested point value for the game exactly matches whatever models the kid brought. By turn 2 or 3 the rest of us (these were 2v2 games) start adding up points in our head and recognize that the kid is way over. Game ruined.

2) The kid is in the store without parents. He gets involved in a game and things seem to be going well, until mom or dad shows up. They've finished shopping and don't need the GW babysitter anymore, so they tell the kid to pack up and leave with them immediately. At no point do they stop to think that they are screwing someone else over, and by extension they're making life hard on the kid - who wants to play against someone who is never allowed to finish a game?

SharpSilver
05-12-2007, 15:04
If I was going to teach someone how to play a game, I would draw them into a position where they are about to beat me.

Then I would tell him openly what I would do next, and what he did wrong, then I would defeat his army, hoping that he would take it as advise and not as bragging.

I think letting him get the upper-hand first is important, then explaining how i/you/whoever would destroy his units afterwards.

SharpSilver
05-12-2007, 15:08
One other thing, I think that playing to win against a completley new player is completely out of the question, its unfair almost.

Its like a Bulldozer versus a bumble bee. The bumble bee would obviously lose, but the Bulldozer dosent need to completely 'crush' his opponenet like the first guy did. But he obviously was a 1337 Power gamer, and had to win, for his own sake, otherwise he would probably have felt so embarrased lol.

But it wouldnt have seemed embarrasing to the people around him, even if he did completely beat everyone in every other game he plays.

scientist tz
05-12-2007, 15:19
I refuse to play against minors unless I'm forced to in a Tournament setting.

The tournament scenario only happened once and the kid turned out to be fine with respect to rules and etiquette. His tactical skills needed work though. I think he finished dead last despite having what I thought was a pretty good Iron Warriors list.

Orbital
05-12-2007, 15:56
I like playing games with kids. I don't do it every day of the week, but I like it. Sure, some of them are dinks, but isn't that the case with adults as well? I'm not ready to say that more kids are jerks than their adult counterparts; I've had more trouble with adults in pick-up games than I have with kids. When a 10-year-old tries to measure 7"-8" or more for his movement phase, I can stop, look him in the eye, and say "Hey, kid. You're only allowed 6" for that move. Don't try to pull a fast one on me" and, usually, he'll suck it up. When an adult does it, I have to go through the usual garbage of "No, I didn't" and "How dare you?" plus all the big chest-beating attempt to save face... and then the whole "alpha male" challenge where he'd rather act offended than just man up and admit he's over-measuring. Such a headache that turns into that I actually stop to ask myself "Is it even worth it to call him on it?". I find that much more awkward and difficult than having to deal with a kid who doesn't know the rules. I'd trade those two experiences any day of the week.

JonnyX
05-12-2007, 16:08
Well I played one game at my local GW where a guy was arguing with me about rapid fire and deep strike and when asked to produce his rulebook he said he didn't have one lmao :cool:

EDIT: I had mine though -_-

Xgladar
05-12-2007, 16:16
Well I played one game at my local GW where a guy was arguing with me about rapid fire and deep strike and when asked to produce his rulebook he said he didn't have one lmao :cool:

and did you have yours? lmao...

jfrazell
05-12-2007, 16:42
I strongly disagree. I may not be 10 years old anymore, but I seem to recall that at that age, (and for most people much older then that) I only really ever learnt anything if it went badly for me.


I think you're missing the scene (or maybe I am). You have an adult playing a child. That is pathetic and weak.

I play with old farts mostly. We generally have kids that age or, er, older. If we had seen this occurring we would have 1) pulled the "adult" to the side and told him to shape up (I've done that before); 2) had the store guy stop the game and have the kid play another kid; or 3) help the kid out-giving him advice on how to beat the kid, with commensurate high fiving et al when the kid won.

Marinox
05-12-2007, 16:49
i got no beef playing aginst kids.

in the pick up games at the store, if it's a kid i don't already know,i usually ask the kid if he wants to do a learning game or if he wants to play to win. either way it's usually a fun game as long as you set the feeling very early that it's going to be a relaxed environment, and don't tolerate any tantrums.

tournaments are not for learning. i'll be happy to give him pointers after the game, but if he's in a tournament, he should know what he's getting into.

i'm in complete agreement with orbital though. i've had just as many (if not more) problems playing adults and the kiddies

jfrazell
05-12-2007, 17:39
No, you don't try to lose as best you can. If you try to lose your not teaching him anything. If a player can't handle losing games, especially when they're first starting out they won't be good players later both due to lack of experience and the sense of entitlement you've attempted to inject into them. I regularly smushed players who were new, even young ones for their early games. Your advice afterward is much more convincing if you *won* the game after all.




Then the kid needs to (wo)man up. Hes too young to be playing if he starts bawling when he loses.

Not directed at you Azi-

Thats a copout. Adults playing against children, and then mauling them saying the children need to learn is a pathetic excuse of a human being. Very few CHILDREN are going to be equal to a competitive adult. Thats 1) not the way to get them to come back; 2) not the way to get them to learn how to play properly as they will become powergamers; 3) shows your mental state if you have to pound a child into gravy and then justify it by saying "they need to learn."

If you were teaching a child martial arts would you start by beating them with a bat? The concept is just stupid.

DapperAnarchist
05-12-2007, 17:43
Whether its kids or general new players, I think I've a pretty good method, one I use when teaching chess (as I have a few times). Keep an eye out for "mistakes" (target selection, troop movement, etc) on their side. Don't say it then, take advantage of it, then STOP. Return to where you were before the mistake, and let them try again. That way they have a very definite learning experience. This is easier in chess, with one move a turn...

jfrazell
05-12-2007, 18:06
Whether its kids or general new players, I think I've a pretty good method, one I use when teaching chess (as I have a few times). Keep an eye out for "mistakes" (target selection, troop movement, etc) on their side. Don't say it then, take advantage of it, then STOP. Return to where you were before the mistake, and let them try again. That way they have a very definite learning experience. This is easier in chess, with one move a turn...

interesting idea there.

Goq Gar
05-12-2007, 18:08
The guy who researched the internet for the most Cheddar and Brie army he could devise (I think it was a wood elf "moving forest" army that was somehow invincible) or the game I played against a Daemon hunter who cheated and said his Special officer guy (forgot name) got +1 attack per psyker in 12", and said every daemonhunter is a psyker, ergo my gun gets 30 shots thankyou very much.

That or ANY GAME AGAINST NECRONS.

SharpSilver
05-12-2007, 18:39
I can say my first ever proper game was infuriating, it was when I came along to a starter session at my local GWS, this was along time ago, probably 5-6 years I'd say.

Basically we were told to bring 5 painted miniatures to play a game where it was a 3 v 3 game, we had to destroy the enemy, simple as that.

One guy on the opposite side of the table brought 3 Leman Russ battle tanks, and silly enough the member of staff running the game allowed him to deploy them, along with the 20 Cadian guardsman too, me and the two other guys on the other team looked in despair as he wiped the floor with his tanks on our measly 5 man SM scout squad, 5 Terminators and 5 Black legion Space Marines.

It was so unfair it was ridiculas.

Orbital
05-12-2007, 18:48
I do remember coming pretty close to losing my cool a few times. I was playing a mega-battle and there was a guy on my team (it was 4 on 4). Every time I wanted to move or shoot or do anything he would lean against me, face over my shoulder (no exaggeration) and reach over and literally take the dice out of my hand as I was about to roll them and tell me how many I had to roll, what numbers I had to get, who I should be shooting at, etc.

After a few turns of him treating me like the stupidest kid he ever met (I'm 12 years his senior), I lost my cool. First (and last) time in any 40k game I ever did. I put on my riot control voice and said "Give me some space. And I mean right now." in a tone not unlike the sound of a car door being repeatedly slammed. Everything got kinda quiet in the room for a while... but it was all cool. He didn't touch me anymore. In fact, he never looked me in the eye again.

My friends and I still kinda laugh about it to this day.

p.s. Man. That story was boring.

Hrogoff the Destructor
05-12-2007, 19:03
I played against a Daemon hunter who cheated and said his Special officer guy (forgot name) got +1 attack per psyker in 12", and said every daemonhunter is a psyker, ergo my gun gets 30 shots thankyou very much.

That or ANY GAME AGAINST NECRONS.

Haha. I remember my brother looking at his daemonhunter codex and going "Wait, the culexus (I think that's the one) gets plus +1 shot for every pysker within 12 inches, and all Grey Knights are psykers!"

Grazzy
05-12-2007, 19:07
alright i have a certain person at my store and he insists on cheating..... no blatently but you know nudgind models or terrain here, fudging his movement there, and the like.... .

These are the people that annoy me most. Their models always move at least 7'', and when i go get some drinks or something, terrain is convenietly moved slightly to block LOS. They dont get invited to my house again unsurprisingly.

Thoth62
05-12-2007, 19:32
I think you're missing the scene (or maybe I am). You have an adult playing a child. That is pathetic and weak.

I don't want to say that you are, but I might be missing your point. (Which I'm pretty sure has happened before between us... ;)) Either way, you didn't respond to the rest of my post, and it would seem that Orbital did much the same thing. I want to rehash that under no circumstances am I supporting what this guy did. He was a dick, plain and simple, and obviously got his rocks off by kicking the snot out of a kid who was relatively new to the game.

What I am advocating (and I am going to stand by this) is that you should make sure that the game is a learning experience. Help the kid out, give him pointers, advise him on rules or tactics if you wish, but above all make sure that they have a good time. What I disagreed with from the OP was only one thing, and that was this:


Now when you play someone that could be in the first grade, you darn well do your best to lose the game (while trying to give the kid some pointers he will undoubtably forget). It doesn't matter if your going by the rules, you should make some excuse for him to win.

Don't break the rules, because then the young one learns bad habits. Don't let them win at all costs, because it gives them a false sense of their own skill, and it will hurt even more when they do lose. And they will.

I'll agree. Sometimes it sucks to lose, but it's even worse when you win and you know that your opponent just let you win. That's what I disagree with.

Imperialis_Dominatus
05-12-2007, 19:33
At my Club myself and another guy were playing a game it was a fun game an I think I was winning (just) when this kid a few years younger than me comes over,about thirty minutes before he'd tried to cheat and I'd called him up for it.

Most of the people in the Club are over in the far end of the hall playing a game of Apoc so there's only a few teenagers around my table. The guy has two Fantasy Models which he procedes to make them 'Rape' each other.

I was getting pretty annoyed as it was disturbing our game and he was being a jerk, when he starts going on about how he had Raped my mother.

Now i'm a good head taller than him and I told him to shut up, he asked me what I was going to do and I mentioned to him that I could easily beat him in a fight if he didn't shut up.

After that he goes back to 'raping his models' and left soon after but boy he pissed me off.

I would have hit him. I'm not even kidding, I think I would have.


I think the most important thing to teach kids in their first few games is sportsmanship and respect.

This is wisdom, in not just 40k but in many other activities as well. When I got into wrestling, my first match I got pinned in the first round... I could have gotten pissy, I could have refused to shake the guys hand or something stupid, but my coach had, luckily, put the fear of God into me were I to fail to show good sportsmanship.

Then the next match I had (second match of my life), I pinned the other guy in the first. Same deal, other side of the coin; I didn't brag, gloat, dance, do backflips (haha, chubby little middle schooler doing a backflip, haha), I shook his hand, shook his coaches' hand, and recieved the grats of my team.

Then some other jackass on our team hit the mat or something stupid after he lost... tossed his headgear or somesuch. That Monday, we nearly all died.

Moral: Keep your cool, be a good sport, win or lose, or your coach will find a way to make you rue the day you were born.

Now, not everyone has had the luxury of having sportsmanship beaten into them, especially not little kids... but if they watch games and see people acting civilly, they might get the hint.

In any competition, the paramount thing is sportsmanship and respect (well, they're synonymous really...). If one player doesn't show it, everyone who knows this pretty much hopes he loses. If both players are asses, well, who watches a game like that?

And if I were to play a newer kid, I'd win, but I'd make sure to show him what he was doing wrong or right in the process. It's like coaching. You can beat someone and still teach them what's up.

Frankly, I think that if someone can't take losing thier first time, they shouldn't play till they develop and mature to the point that they can.

jfrazell
05-12-2007, 19:39
What I am advocating (and I am going to stand by this) is that you should make sure that the game is a learning experience. Help the kid out, give him pointers, advise him on rules or tactics if you wish, but above all make sure that they have a good time.
We are on the same page here.



Don't break the rules, because then the young one learns bad habits. Don't let them win at all costs, because it gives them a false sense of their own skill, and it will hurt even more when they do lose. And they will.
.
Throwing a game is not "breaking the rules." Get them into the experience first, then you can start heaping on reality. I always preferred a learner get a tie which works well. If the beginner has a little bit of experience then I like to play size differentiated lists (say my 1500 to his 2000). This makes it a challenge for me and I can put forth best effort, and he gets a fair game.

But under no conditions should an adult hammer a child. Thats the parent's job ;)

boogle
05-12-2007, 19:40
I must be very good at avoiding the tossers, never had a game where i haven't enjoyed it (even in my only Tourney - the GW staff memeber getting his army out on our table to show my opponent in mid game however!!!), i usually get drubbed, but hey it's only a game

Thoth62
05-12-2007, 20:16
Throwing a game is not "breaking the rules." Get them into the experience first, then you can start heaping on reality. I always preferred a learner get a tie which works well. If the beginner has a little bit of experience then I like to play size differentiated lists (say my 1500 to his 2000). This makes it a challenge for me and I can put forth best effort, and he gets a fair game.

But under no conditions should an adult hammer a child. Thats the parent's job ;)

I never said it was against the rules. I was merely responding to what the OP stated. (See below, emphasis mine.)


Now when you play someone that could be in the first grade, you darn well do your best to lose the game (while trying to give the kid some pointers he will undoubtably forget). It doesn't matter if your going by the rules, you should make some excuse for him to win.

I just don't think it's fair to anybody to have a game thrown in the interests of making someone feel good. I was never that young when I started playing warhammer, but in other instances, I remember when I found out that during certain activities whoever I was competing against had let me win. I thought that was worse than losing in the first place. I felt as though I wasn't given nearly enough credit in that, according to them, I needed their help in order to win.

That's why I think that if a young player shows up at the store for a game, staff should show discretion in who ends up playing them. Make sure it's someone who will keep the best interests of the beginner in mind. As sad as it is, some 20+ year olds, still living in their parents basements, are more childish than the kids they have to beat to make themselves feel better about themselves.

If you feel that beginners should always win their first game, no matter what, then you are entitled to your opinion. I think that as long as you show respect and sportsmanship to whoever you play, then you can't go very far wrong.

jfrazell
05-12-2007, 20:31
I never said it was against the rules. I was merely responding to what the OP stated. (See below, emphasis mine.)



I just don't think it's fair to anybody to have a game thrown in the interests of making someone feel good. I was never that young when I started playing warhammer, but in other instances, I remember when I found out that during certain activities whoever I was competing against had let me win. I thought that was worse than losing in the first place. I felt as though I wasn't given nearly enough credit in that, according to them, I needed their help in order to win.

That's why I think that if a young player shows up at the store for a game, staff should show discretion in who ends up playing them. Make sure it's someone who will keep the best interests of the beginner in mind. As sad as it is, some 20+ year olds, still living in their parents basements, are more childish than the kids they have to beat to make themselves feel better about themselves.

If you feel that beginners should always win their first game, no matter what, then you are entitled to your opinion. I think that as long as you show respect and sportsmanship to whoever you play, then you can't go very far wrong.

I think we're actually in agreement in general Thothy old boy. I wholeheartedly agree the staff or the old farts laying around should help them match to players amenable to learner games or beginners themselves (which is more ideal to me). I have to soften my position-while usually pulling a tie a hard fought, close to the end victory or defeat works. Its the blow out syndrome by an adult thats my beef, and the thought that children should be hammered "so they can learn" upsets me both as a player and as a parent.

Interestingly, I'd bet if the parent had stayed around this would not have happened. Something tells Basement Master Bob would chill the KILL HILL IM UBER scenario if Dad is there, under basic Bully theory that they won't thrive in an environment where bigger powers are about.

azimaith
05-12-2007, 20:43
Not directed at you Azi-

Isn't it though.



Thats a copout. Adults playing against children, and then mauling them saying the children need to learn is a pathetic excuse of a human being.

Of course the kids need to learn, thats how you get experience. I don't play them any differently than anyone else. Maybe some people think I'm some rules lawyer or otherwise but thats not the case. You don't learn to ride a bike without falling off a bunch.



Very few CHILDREN are going to be equal to a competitive adult.

Of course not, whats your point besides whats already known.



Thats 1) not the way to get them to come back;

They come back because the game is fun and they learned alot, convincing them that next time, it will be different. Just because you beat them doesn't mean that you go dance around on their models screaming "You suck, I rule!"
Win, then recap the game, mention all the smart things they did and all the mistakes they made. Thank them from the game, tell them they've got potential (if they've got it, and if they've stuck around the entire game without crying or being a punk they probably do). They'll be wiser and a better player for it.



2) not the way to get them to learn how to play properly as they will become powergamers;

Only if the person they play is a power gamer. Different people stress different things. I put an emphasis on winning over losing or messing around, but not over mutual enjoyment. But there are some games where one person is just flat out going to lose barring some probability miracle.



3) shows your mental state if you have to pound a child into gravy and then justify it by saying "they need to learn."

A mental state that understands to be kind when you should be cruel is to be cruel at a later date. No person plays baseball and doesn't strike out horribly their first few games, doesn't mean we need to go out and fret over their self-esteem. They need encouragement, sure, but they also need to develop skill which no amount of praise and game throwing will develop on its own.



If you were teaching a child martial arts would you start by beating them with a bat? The concept is just stupid.
I would start with teaching them the basics, then have a short sparring match in which I put them on the ground. Then i'd start from the bottom and begin building them up and make it a point to show their gradual progression of skill. Nothing encourages you to continue like the prospect of getting better. If you throw your games you're just delaying the inevitable beat down they'll get.

Finnigan2004
05-12-2007, 20:51
I have to say that I am firmly in the camp of "not bringing your 'A' game" when playing against a newcomer-- especially a kid. Once I had the experience of playing against a younger gamer at a WHFB tournament, and I saw the whole range of reactions from others at the event. When I unpacked my army, the organizer matched me up with the young person.

When he took out his army, I could see he would be in trouble because it was an entire army of goblins that had only a handful of fast troops, no fanatics, and only one spellcaster. I realized off the bat that my khornate daemonic legion would massacre him, so I asked how many points he had. He was not sure, but I figured probably around two hundred points under the limit. I started to take my bloodcrushers off of the table, but one of the referees said that I had to play with my whole army. Luckily, someone had some trolls and gave them to him, so at least the points were the same. We played somewhat slowly, and we got harassed to hurry up by people who were impatient to play the next game (we were well within the allotted time, so I did not worry too much about it).

During the game, I made a few ill advised charges (easy to justify with a khornate army). He killed some units, had some fun, and seemed to enjoy the game. In the end, it was more fun for both of us than a complete massacre would have been. He lost, but only barely (we actually had to count victory points).

I would highly recommend "playing nice" to other gamers because it helps bring people along in the hobby, and after they play a few games they will might become a worthy adversary. In my opinion, proving your superiority against a thirteen year old who has never played is simply not cool.

Orbital
05-12-2007, 21:14
A mental state that understands to be kind when you should be cruel is to be cruel at a later date.
So your only options are "cruel now or cruel later"? There's no option which doesn't involve "be cruel"?


I would start with teaching them the basics, then have a short sparring match in which I put them on the ground.
No responsible martial arts teacher is going to let someone spar until they have the basics down, practicing first without actually throwing or receiving real punches. I believe that most people here who have martial arts experience, like myself, will corroborate this.

Seriously... when it comes to survival skills like teaching a kid how to swim or how to respond to a fire in the home, yeah sure... it's not fun and games. But Warhammer is supposed to be the very definition of "fun and games", so loosen up and cut a few corners so a kid can have some fun for crying out loud. He's a kid, not an army cadet.

jfrazell
05-12-2007, 21:51
Azi are you seriously contending playing full bore against a child who is new to the game?

If you have a "short sparring match" where you put them to the ground-(outside of soft styled judo, aikido, et all) you've probably just lost them. The concept of battery to a child rears it ugly head.

azimaith
05-12-2007, 23:14
So your only options are "cruel now or cruel later"? There's no option which doesn't involve "be cruel"?

You go easy on him the first game the next game he gets creamed. You do it *right* the first time around he still gets creamed later but he knows how to cope because he now understands the mechanics that lead to that loss.



No responsible martial arts teacher is going to let someone spar until they have the basics down, practicing first without actually throwing or receiving real punches. I believe that most people here who have martial arts experience, like myself, will corroborate this.

Thats because theres a lawsuit issue. I've had teachers who were basically off the books who believed the best way was to start with sparring after a quick introduction. For one its one of the most fun parts of martial arts which kept you coming back, second its the most telling methods.



Seriously... when it comes to survival skills like teaching a kid how to swim or how to respond to a fire in the home, yeah sure... it's not fun and games. But Warhammer is supposed to be the very definition of "fun and games", so loosen up and cut a few corners so a kid can have some fun for crying out loud. He's a kid, not an army cadet.So lets say you go easy on him the first time and let him win. What about next game when someone who doesn't care about teaching him anything who smashes him into the dust. Hes going to cry then too? What about his third, his fourth. Is he going to cry every time he doesn't have someone let him win? Your first game is almost invariably going to be a loss, whats important is that afterwards you either get a reasonable friendly critique and instructions from someone (myself) or you get a "You suck noob!" from someone else (asses.)

If hes not going to come back to the game because he lost thats a sign of a person who can't handle defeat. Its not the same thing as not coming back because the guy you played was an absolute ******. You can not take it easy on someone and still be a good person to play.


Azi are you seriously contending playing full bore against a child who is new to the game?

Depends what you consider full bore. I wouldn't go into my: "Oh God, this is a tournament with a rules lawyer opponent whose stopping me every 5 seconds so i'm going to pull out all the stops and smush his smug little face into pudding." mode. No.

I wouldn't "accidently forget" to move units or move units in stupid ways. I'd certainly give in game advice on his movement but only after he makes his own decisions.

Case in point: I'm playing speed freeks vs another kids imperial guard. I won't clip my speed freeks maximum movement to give the kid more time to shoot at them. They'll go on using whats tactically advantageous. Once they get they're they won't sit around for a turn as I "Forget" them. They'll go charging in.

And once that happens i'll explain what happened and how to avoid shock troops like that. Then i'd continue. Inevitably the orks would probably win (and in most cases there would be some decked out officer in there who would get creamed) and i'd explain to him proper separation of units to prevent the consolidation conga. Continue on, ect.

I played a game against a player who was pretty young, probably like 12, who had a foot slogging horde or orks vs my speed freeks orks. I flanked his weak side and started rolling his line up but I gave him tactical pointers during that time that helped him improve his capability. For example, at one point I had my orkalith (converted battlewagon from monolith) runing up his opposite flank but I told him to try keeping his kommandos out of LOS until the time was right and to keep his killa kans in reserve (not reserves rule, but reserves as in behinds everything to respond) in this sort of game. I didn't tell him when to jump out with his kommandos, he caught on, they popped out at the last second as my battlewagon was rounding the side of a building and shot it with a rokkit immobilizing it, then he charged in his killa kanz and blew it up in Close combat.

I didn't have to hold stuff back, that battlewagon had to get up there to provide support and it needed a side that wasn't going to plop it right in the middle of his foot slogging force. He saw the opportunity himself, got a lucky glance and destroyed it with kanz. This was like his second game.

He lost the game but he took away a good tactical experience from it because I didn't just "forget" which side of my tank was facing which side or "oops, guess I shouldn't have sent my battlewagon into the heart of his orks."

There are some people who are just crappy opponents at 12 to 42 and thats part of their character. I've met kids who are flat out bad opponents, obnoxious, foul mouthed, and then when they lose, whiny and melodramatic. Then I meet other kids who take loss in stride and improve, they don't whine, they smile and say, "Good game" then secretly plot the downfall of your army behind your back and come back next week with a list and tactics that might actually make you sweat. An earned victory is far more addicting than one delivered on a silver platter.


If you have a "short sparring match" where you put them to the ground-(outside of soft styled judo, aikido, et all) you've probably just lost them.

I'm talking judo, aikido, you can't put them on the ground with something like boxing because it means you've beaten their skulls in. Put them on the ground is just a way of saying: "Beating them badly" (as in winnning the sparring match.) Say you did a point system in some tournaments for martial arts, they'd score 0 points for it.



The concept of battery to a child rears it ugly head.
Thats why most places don't teach martial arts to children anymore, they teach performance arts and call them martial. Martial arts runs too much of a risk of lawsuits.

People are misunderstanding me here. You not go easy on a kid and still have fun for both sides. Giving them the game is not very helpful and being an ****** in either extreme is down right destructive. As long as at the end of the game you and your opponent can share tactics and experience (or in the case of new players, you can give tactics) and you all can recap those memorable moments in the game theres not going to be a problem. I'm not advocating jumping around screaming "I'm better than you! Na na na na naaa!" by any stretch of the imagination.

studderigdave
05-12-2007, 23:32
we have a guy at our local shop that has cheat moves NAMED after him. the stewie slide and the stewie shuffle. the stewie slide is where he will measure movement and slide the ruler with the model, giving him a few more inches each turn. the shuffle is when he measure front to back on his tanks. ive caught him doing this and he just grumbles. i told the shop manager and he doesnt want to ban him cuz he sinks like a G each month into the store. so we have resorted to just ignoring him and refusing to play against him. so far its worked fine.

MuttMan
05-12-2007, 23:36
I get tired of beating around the bush with people who take loopholes to the extreme. God knows how long it took rules lawyers to see the missing parts of the game and use it to its fullest.

I've played long enough to realize that trying to fight them at their own game of rules lawyering is just plain infuriating to say the least and makes me expend time and energy trying to combat them... Just for that reason, and that reason alone I baught weighted dice.

I pull them out and use them against those people, and as you can tell nobody online can attach this name to the real me as I mention this. Screw tank shocking into CC, bases unable to touch due to models in the way, 1" distance rule when charging someone with their backs up against their tanks using square bases (of roughly same size as 25mm!) and various other cheap tricks. In the end the dice determine the winner in most cases, and those players keep comming my way with their snobby attitudes.

The funny thing about my dice though, is that they cost 50 bucks per dice, they're small, and glass-clear, so you cant tell they're weighted. They're slightly mishaped, with the 3 top numbers near the light corner thats slightly rounder (to keep rolling) while the weighted corner is near un-seeable sharper corner. Produces 22% better results or my money back, so far its 50% formy case as I normally roll above average with normal dice!

I seek out playing jerks, but when I get a normal game my normal dice come to play. Cheat the cheaters is my new motto. Powergame the powergamers is my other motto. Play decent players on their level is my first 40k motto. Its good to have some chivalry.

azimaith
05-12-2007, 23:38
Oh good, yes, cheating proves your much better than them. Cheating infuriates me more than anything. (What the hell did I type?)

DapperAnarchist
05-12-2007, 23:50
Thats a terrible idea... really, just bad.

Imperialis_Dominatus
05-12-2007, 23:51
Yeah, I'd rather beat powergamers at their own game than use weighted dice. But whatever you want to do dude.

darkknight
06-12-2007, 00:30
the most irritating game i ever played in was against a marine player who had about half of his models only partly assembled. he proxied another ten saying " its ok that these are plas cannons right" im normally pretty agreeable and let him do so trusting that he was going to be pretty fair.
when we set up terrain he took as many pieces as he could and put them at the edges and the back of the board as possible so they wouldnt interfere with his lines of fire. then he protested at the use of a random mission. i should have known that he wasnt planning on having a fun game. my orks tried to slog their way across the board while he stood at the very back and fired at will. i started rassing him because he hadnt really moved a figure all game so hes like " here... i moved my tech marine". moves the one figure and continued to mow me down. ONE ork made it into melee and killed nothing. i never played with him again though if i ever do i have a "special list" that has his name all over it.

azimaith
06-12-2007, 00:37
And thats why you never let opponents set up terrain solo.

Tehkonrad
06-12-2007, 02:27
very true azi very true

Warpcrafter
06-12-2007, 03:11
I get tired of beating around the bush with people who take loopholes to the extreme. God knows how long it took rules lawyers to see the missing parts of the game and use it to its fullest.

I've played long enough to realize that trying to fight them at their own game of rules lawyering is just plain infuriating to say the least and makes me expend time and energy trying to combat them... Just for that reason, and that reason alone I baught weighted dice.

I pull them out and use them against those people, and as you can tell nobody online can attach this name to the real me as I mention this. Screw tank shocking into CC, bases unable to touch due to models in the way, 1" distance rule when charging someone with their backs up against their tanks using square bases (of roughly same size as 25mm!) and various other cheap tricks. In the end the dice determine the winner in most cases, and those players keep comming my way with their snobby attitudes.

The funny thing about my dice though, is that they cost 50 bucks per dice, they're small, and glass-clear, so you cant tell they're weighted. They're slightly mishaped, with the 3 top numbers near the light corner thats slightly rounder (to keep rolling) while the weighted corner is near un-seeable sharper corner. Produces 22% better results or my money back, so far its 50% formy case as I normally roll above average with normal dice!

I seek out playing jerks, but when I get a normal game my normal dice come to play. Cheat the cheaters is my new motto. Powergame the powergamers is my other motto. Play decent players on their level is my first 40k motto. Its good to have some chivalry.

That's a really good tactic. Let the cheater wonder why his uber-army is losing and maybe he'll either quit or realize the error of his ways. I once beat a rampaging space wolves power-gamer with my Orks by sheer weight of his bad dice rolls and my good ones, and he wasted lots of time looking through the rulebooks (And demanding more than once to look at my codex). It was hilarious and completely satisfying, especially since my Orks had a record of 30/2.:evilgrin:

Imperialis_Dominatus
06-12-2007, 03:19
Or instead of realizing the error of his ways like so many seem to believe, albeit naively, he will accuse you of using..... wait for it....... weighted dice. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

TheEndIsHere
06-12-2007, 03:23
I played a game against a player who was pretty young, probably like 12, who had a foot slogging horde or orks vs my speed freeks orks. I flanked his weak side and started rolling his line up but I gave him tactical pointers during that time that helped him improve his capability. For example, at one point I had my orkalith (converted battlewagon from monolith) runing up his opposite flank but I told him to try keeping his kommandos out of LOS until the time was right and to keep his killa kans in reserve (not reserves rule, but reserves as in behinds everything to respond) in this sort of game. I didn't tell him when to jump out with his kommandos, he caught on, they popped out at the last second as my battlewagon was rounding the side of a building and shot it with a rokkit immobilizing it, then he charged in his killa kanz and blew it up in Close combat.


That would be the worst game ever for me, not anything BUT the Orkalith, so sad, and coming from an ork player... If you play eldar, know that i want to use a enslaved Avatar as a slanneshi GD :P thats how I feel... *sob*

D-End

azimaith
06-12-2007, 07:21
That would be the worst game ever for me, not anything BUT the Orkalith, so sad, and coming from an ork player... If you play eldar, know that i want to use a enslaved Avatar as a slanneshi GD :P thats how I feel... *sob*

D-End
Uh, he killed other stuff, that was just most memorable. Unless your opponent refuses to do anything offensive your going to lose models with orks regardless.

inquisitor solarris
06-12-2007, 10:06
i'm very fortunate to not have people like that if anything we had a loudmouth who had a completly illegal list (landspeeders, whrilwinds and dreadnoughts) and his voice could be heard throughout the shop and outside.Then One day he got thrown out permament for hitting someone it was funny as hell watching him go in a complete fit :)

Elahyrok
06-12-2007, 12:23
The most infuriating game I've ever played in was against a tank company, with Orks. The terrain was set up by a neutral player and featured a river across the center of the board with just one bridge. I didn't know I was going to be playing a tank company and had just turned up with a fairly balanced force. I found I didn't have enough anti-tank firepower and couldn't get close enough to get in combat because I was forced into a bottleneck. The one unit that could get round this was my stormboyz which predictably got pasted early on.

The most infuriating part about the game was how long my opponent took to play. He only had a few tanks and anyone would think he was playing a swarm army the amount of time he took to move and shoot. I've only played him once since then, in a tournament setting. When I won that game because I actually did the objective, can't remember the mission, he couldn't understand why I won.

jfrazell
06-12-2007, 12:32
I get tired of beating around the bush with people who take loopholes to the extreme. God knows how long it took rules lawyers to see the missing parts of the game and use it to its fullest.

I've played long enough to realize that trying to fight them at their own game of rules lawyering is just plain infuriating to say the least and makes me expend time and energy trying to combat them... Just for that reason, and that reason alone I baught weighted dice.

I pull them out and use them against those people, and as you can tell nobody online can attach this name to the real me as I mention this. Screw tank shocking into CC, bases unable to touch due to models in the way, 1" distance rule when charging someone with their backs up against their tanks using square bases (of roughly same size as 25mm!) and various other cheap tricks. In the end the dice determine the winner in most cases, and those players keep comming my way with their snobby attitudes.

The funny thing about my dice though, is that they cost 50 bucks per dice, they're small, and glass-clear, so you cant tell they're weighted. They're slightly mishaped, with the 3 top numbers near the light corner thats slightly rounder (to keep rolling) while the weighted corner is near un-seeable sharper corner. Produces 22% better results or my money back, so far its 50% formy case as I normally roll above average with normal dice!

I seek out playing jerks, but when I get a normal game my normal dice come to play. Cheat the cheaters is my new motto. Powergame the powergamers is my other motto. Play decent players on their level is my first 40k motto. Its good to have some chivalry.

You do know the best outcome you're going to have if caught cheating is to be kicked out of the store, like forever don't you? You do know that people get riled up about cheating, and it might even go further than that, depending on who the other guy is.

jfrazell
06-12-2007, 12:36
The most infuriating game I've ever played in was against a tank company, with Orks. The terrain was set up by a neutral player and featured a river across the center of the board with just one bridge. I didn't know I was going to be playing a tank company and had just turned up with a fairly balanced force. I found I didn't have enough anti-tank firepower and couldn't get close enough to get in combat because I was forced into a bottleneck. The one unit that could get round this was my stormboyz which predictably got pasted early on.


That probably would have been an ok game if the mission were appropriate-aka he had to get those tanks across, and could only use the bridge for that. Then you're talking Bridge at Remagen :D

silashand
06-12-2007, 12:39
To put it very simply, he was kicked out of the store.

I feel sorry for the kid. That's not the kind of behavior an adult should display, especially when ostensibly teaching them how to play. Unfortunately, I know a 40-year old from an old club who's very much like that. He didn't mind teaching people to play, but God forbid he actually *lose* one of those teaching games. He would do everything in his power to make sure he won them even at the last moment by setting up his unknowing opponent and then crushing them. Very poor sportsman IMO and he was one of the main reasons I left to start my own club. Very few people ever wanted to play him and I fully understand why. Needless to say he wasn't invited into the new club.

Cheers, Gary

Nurglitch_PS
06-12-2007, 12:53
Well a) the kid enjoys themself

Sorry, but if a kid does not enjoy himself during a game even if he loses, he shouldn't play at all. I absolutely love playing squash against my (now former) boss. I only once came close to drawing, normally he beats the hell out of me. I still love the game.



and might be more likely to take up the hobby


Is this an end in itself?


if you're not a complete Asperger's case it shouldn't really bug you to throw a game to them, so what's the harm?

Meaning that all the persons not with Asperger should feel some sort of obligation to show utter contempt to new players by giving them freebies? ********.


As I see it I am either playing a game or teaching how to play a game. In the first case I will do my best to win. I hate when someone treats me with contempt, this being equivalent to "here, you seem thick, have a free round of shooting as a compensation" and I would never treat my opponent that way.

Teaching is different. You explain the rules. You may stop the game. You may revert the moves. Ask the guy being tought to roll back a move and try a different one to compare the results. Tell him to assault your unit, than revert and shoot the same unit just to see how assault compares to shooting. You can remove some units from a table to show a different tactical situation, or add some more to show what would work best in a given set up. You don't care about the points or result at all. You may run the entire game with an aim of showing your opponent how to defeat an army like yours. But let's not confuse teaching with playing a full game. They are different things.

Drongol
06-12-2007, 14:19
Okay, let me get this straight. If I'm at a store a little kid shows up wanting a game, it's my duty as a gamer to spend the next forty five to ninety minutes losing to him, and by trying to make anything resembling a "game" out of it, I'm a jerk?

I don't get it. If someone shows up to a store looking for a game, I am going to assume they are looking for a game and act accordingly. That means playing, instead of pushing models around and taking them off the table whenever the kid says so.

Not only is it insulting to the kid in question, it's insulting to feel that people are obligated to behave in the way you dictate. I realize I do not have to play a child, but I do not believe there are any rules, spoken or not, about how to play against different opponents.

Drongol

jfrazell
06-12-2007, 15:12
Okay, let me get this straight. If I'm at a store a little kid shows up wanting a game, it's my duty as a gamer to spend the next forty five to ninety minutes losing to him, and by trying to make anything resembling a "game" out of it, I'm a jerk?

No you are under no obligation to play him. However,

1) if you are an adult
2) he/she is a child, and a beginner
3) you play your A game and stomp him into the ground

Then you're pretty much just a walking male genitalia.

A small one.

You might want to leave before Dad comes back. Mom would be even worse.

jfjnpxmy
06-12-2007, 15:29
Sorry, but if a kid does not enjoy himself during a game even if he loses, he shouldn't play at all.

He's a kid. Kids aren't mature enough to have that attitude yet.


I absolutely love playing squash against my (now former) boss. I only once came close to drawing, normally he beats the hell out of me. I still love the game.

You, presumably, are an adult. Not a kid. You, presumably, are mature. Most kids aren't.


Is this an end in itself?

Yes. Yes it is. Many hobbies, especially ones like Warhammer, rely extremely heavily on their community. If every eight year old with a squad of "Cool looking space robot men" goes to his local GW and gets stomped into paste by the local powergamer, or given a dull-ass six hour long game/rules and morality lecture, then they're just going to get bored/pissed off/frustrated and in ten years time there's no new players to the game. And that would suck.


Meaning that all the persons not with Asperger should feel some sort of obligation to show utter contempt to new players by giving them freebies? ********.

Lawdy, but this is one helluva twisted view. What I'm saying is if you're not some kind of self-absorbed, socially retarded doofus, then you shouldn't see the harm in throwing the game to a goddamned child. A child, not a newbie, not a new player, a child. If some 24 year old comes in and it's his first game ever, by all means, stomp him. If he's so immature he can't tolerate things like learning curves and losing then we don't want him playing anyway and you've just dones us all a service, well done. But children cannot be held to the same standards as you and I, because they're children. They are young and immature. It's not "contempt" if you lose to them and it's not "giving them a freebie". It's being nice to a child. Most normal people don't mind being nice to a child.


As I see it I am either playing a game or teaching how to play a game. In the first case I will do my best to win. I hate when someone treats me with contempt, this being equivalent to "here, you seem thick, have a free round of shooting as a compensation" and I would never treat my opponent that way.

And again, you're an adult. And I dunno, maybe you were some super-duper genius kid. If someone deliberately throws a game to you to make you happy then yeah, that's patronising. Not contemptous, though. You seem kind of hung up on contempt. But it is pretty patronising. The average kid, however, is going to go "Yay, I won, that was fun" and feel happy for half an hour (because of something the other person did, isn't that nice?) and tell his mum and his mum's going to realise you threw the game because she isn't a a child but now she thinks you're a nice person. Everyone's happy, hooray, hooray.

Nurglitch_PS
06-12-2007, 15:39
Yes. Yes it is.

No, sorry, it isn't. Idiots convinced of their immortality have no place on ski trails, guys who don't understand "don't drink and drive" have no place on roads, dorks who can't be bothered to shower have no place in the office, children who cannot take losing have no place at any gaming table regardless of what the game is. The only way this kid is going to be happy in your world is if everyone always deliberately loses the game to him. First time someone does not - a rave, a tantrum, whoops! Gamer lost. But now let's say everyone behaves like you want them to behave. The kid never loses a game, ever. What kind of a gamer is he going to become?



Lawdy, but this is one helluva twisted view. What I'm saying is if you're not some kind of self-absorbed, socially retarded doofus, then you shouldn't see the harm in throwing the game to a goddamned child.

I must be this kind of retarded doofus because I try to treat kids (not small pre-school children) with respect.

Just as an aside. I used to play chess with my dad. I would play him 4-5 times a week before I could even read. Each and every time I would get my ass handed over to me. The game was still great, I loved it. I won once in my life. I have played an absolutely brilliant game, everything was going my way, I really was better. But at the very end I screwed up and my dad, for all the best intentions, made some deliberately wrong moves to let me win, not to waste my effort. I don't think I ever forgave him for that. I remember very well how I hated being patronized, me and all my friends. And that's something I wouldn't inflict on any child. Teaching's different, different rules apply. But not a real game.

jfjnpxmy
06-12-2007, 15:53
No, sorry, it isn't. Idiots convinced of their immortality have no place on ski trails, guys who don't understand "don't drink and drive" have no place on roads, dorks who can't be bothered to shower have no place in the office, children who cannot take losing have no place at any gaming table regardless of what the game is. The only way this kid is going to be happy in your world is if everyone always deliberately loses the game to him. First time someone does not - a rave, a tantrum, whoops! Gamer lost. But now let's say everyone behaves like you want them to behave. The kid never loses a game, ever. What kind of a gamer is he going to become?

Idiots on ski slopes are adults. People drinking and driving are adults. Smelly dorks at your office are adults. Children who can't take losing are...children. They do things like that. They're small and irrational and have no perspective. By all means, if they're throwing a shrieking tantrum because they lost, then they're a brat and should be admonished or excluded, but most kids are in the middle ground - they don't like losing, having their first game ever will be a loss will taint the whole game for them, and they just won't want to play again. And you know what happens when kids who have games thrown to them grow up? They become grown-ups. Grown-ups, unless they're something sorely wrong with them, have perspective and know **** happens, so they won't mind losing.


Just as an aside. I used to play chess with my dad. I would play him 4-5 times a week before I could even read. Each and every time I would get my ass handed over to me. The game was still great, I loved it. I won once in my life. I have played an absolutely brilliant game, everything was going my way, I really was better. But at the very end I screwed up and my dad, for all the best intentions, made some deliberately wrong moves to let me win, not to waste my effort. I don't think I ever forgave him for that. I remember very well how I hated being patronized, me and all my friends. And that's something I wouldn't inflict on any child. Teaching's different, different rules apply. But not a real game.

Congratulations, you were a special child. Were you born at the exact moment the Dalai Lama died?

fengor
06-12-2007, 15:54
i'm wih nurgling on this.

You don't pull all stops in a game on a kid but you do not make deliberate mistakes either. If s/he wants to play the game they get to play a game. Including the risk to loose if they screw up.

If they want to learn it's something totally different as nurgling pointed out. But its important to make sure both (you and the kid) are in for the same kind of game (teachign or regular) before the game starts. A handicap (i.e. your 1500 against his 2000) is okay as long as its agreed and known to both sides beforehand.

Nurglitch_PS
06-12-2007, 16:00
Idiots on ski slopes are adults. People drinking and driving are adults. Smelly dorks at your office are adults. Children who can't take losing are...children.

No. Children who can't take losing are a special kind of children. Ones, who always had everything made easy for them, who always had overprotective mother who would make doubly sure that her precious Doodlykins would never get into anything that held a remote risk. The cushion-padded ones. The ones who will some day completly fail at life. If you see normal kids playing, in those rare places when there are still playgrounds left, you will notice that pretty much all their games are intensly competitive and there are more losers than winners. It's normal for them. The "everyone wins, the win-lose games are nazi" approach is a pretty recent one.



Congratulations, you were a special child. Were you born at the exact moment the Dalai Lama died?

No, there was nothing special about it. I was a fairly normal boy, competitive, one who liked to perform well at games, but straight and not rigged games. I wouldn't give two ***** about a set-up rigged game, or one of those "everybody wins" things. And neither would any kid I've known back then.

Zian64
06-12-2007, 16:29
My most irritating games was where the players didnt really care about the game at all, and were more interested in what their friend was doing on another table or on his gameboy. Kinda mad me feel like I was playing with myself =/

I also used to hate players that would challange every decision you make and force you to pull out a rulebook to prove it, most my opponents did it. Im not talking about a shady rule here and there but common stuff like armour values, glancing/penetrating modifiers, cover and even what wargear I had on my models. Used to drive me nuts and its the reason I shelved warhammer despite my interest.

Zerosoul
06-12-2007, 16:49
Lawdy, but this is one helluva twisted view. What I'm saying is if you're not some kind of self-absorbed, socially retarded doofus, then you shouldn't see the harm in throwing the game to a goddamned child. A child, not a newbie, not a new player, a child. If some 24 year old comes in and it's his first game ever, by all means, stomp him. If he's so immature he can't tolerate things like learning curves and losing then we don't want him playing anyway and you've just dones us all a service, well done. But children cannot be held to the same standards as you and I, because they're children. They are young and immature. It's not "contempt" if you lose to them and it's not "giving them a freebie". It's being nice to a child. Most normal people don't mind being nice to a child.

I....I think I love you. Will you marry me?

I'm not sure how the hypothetical kid will ever know that you threw a game if you've done it right. I play games with a friend's kid all the time. 8-9 years old, kid needs some attention. Nice enough, can be kind of a mouthy little brat, but genuinely wants to play. Have I beaten him? Sure. I can't throw every game or even this kid(not the sharpest tool in the drawer) would know. But I throw enough that he feels good about himself. There's no need to say "dude, you win! Awesome job!" and just start taking models off the board. But I see no harm in saying "Oops, I forgot those guys had lascannons" when I drive my Baal Predator in front of his havoc squad or "accidentally" forgetting to charge my VAS in to his raptors that have a random assortment of weapons he thought look cool. He's won more games against me than he's lost - not because he's some kind of tactical genius, but because I realize that I haven't wasted my time if we both walk away happy, and we both feel good about ourselves for a while afterwards. I'm not sure exactly why this is some kind of ultimate nightmare to some posters in this thread.

Bookwrak
06-12-2007, 16:51
- they don't like losing, having their first game ever will be a loss will taint the whole game for them, and they just won't want to play again
This is absolutely incorrect. Having their first game be a frustrating massacre where nothing they did had any effect will taint the whole game for them. Having a fun game and losing will be almost as good as winning. You go easy against kids like that, and let the occasional mistake slide, and if by the last rounds they're actually in a winning position, you don't suddenly turn around and tear their legs out from under them in the last turn. You don't stomp them into the ground, but you don't hand them the game on a plate either.

Preacher
06-12-2007, 17:01
Thought I would drop in with my little story,

First let me say that I am more of a painter then player, so when I do play, I play for fun. I have played alot of games with young kids that are playing their first games, I dont mind playing against them. You know the kind of game you are going to have going into it.

A while ago at a local GW store they had a 40k campaign that ended with a huge 30 player mega battle. The mega battle was played on 5 linked tables. It really was quite a sight. Long story short...

I was on a table with 5 other players 3 per side. I was teamed with two new players both about 13 or so. One playing his first game. On the other side were two new players and one man(who will remained un named) who is known for being a loud mouth jack ass who takes power gaming and taunting to a new level. It really is quite something to see. Anyways, needless to say the four new players were a little bit timid in this situation. The dark eldar player on my team could barely move his models his hands were shaking so bad. As the game went on(and on and on, but I expected this) the other guy became increasingly angry and nasty towards his teammates and me. He accused me of "stalling and delaying the inevatable", my teams loss. He was upset that I was taking time to help my team mates with their movement phase, so much that he would start moving his models in our shooting and assualt phases.

Anyways he wound up yelling and cursing at his team mates calling them idiots and the such. I lost it. Completly and began yelling myself. I was tired of him belittling his own teammates and mine. Some of the staff stepped him, and calmed me down. After the parents came back to pick up their kids, one of them thanked me for sticking up for his son.

The guy was banned from the store for a month. But he has since returned. I have since played against him in fantasy and left emtions and smack talk at home and wiped the table with his army. I guess it was a little payback for him verbally beating down those kids.

...that was alot longer then i thought it would be...sorry. but thats my most infuriating game I've ever seen.

Preston
06-12-2007, 17:10
I remember back when I started playing M:tG. I was in high school, but I had never really gamed regularly with others before. I had an idea of the kind of game I wanted to play. Fun, somewhat competitive. I made theme decks based on rats and such, and I wanted to play for fun.

Unfortunately, most of the people I played against weren't playing for fun, at least not for everyones fun. They were playing for their own fun, which was Winning. I capitalize that because that was what they were interested in. Winning. Period. WAAC. Get the most expensive cards they could, the rarest, and whup anyone that tried to play them with tourney decks. Including people that just wanted to try out their play for fun not for tourney themed decks.

I didn't enjoy myself, and I stopped playing.

Now, take this over to 40k. If you're playing against someone you don't have to lose, you don't have to throw the game to make them feel better. But you also don't have to play your tourney list, you don't have to play like there's some cash prize if you win. Be nice about it, make the game fun for the other player. If they lose say "hey, that's cool. Remember when you destroyed my <insert thing here>?" or "What you did with that squad was great! With this other squad, maybe try this"

In other words, don't be a dick about it. :P

ChaosMaster
06-12-2007, 17:12
I remember back when I started playing M:tG. I was in high school, but I had never really gamed regularly with others before. I had an idea of the kind of game I wanted to play. Fun, somewhat competitive. I made theme decks based on rats and such, and I wanted to play for fun.

Unfortunately, most of the people I played against weren't playing for fun, at least not for everyones fun. They were playing for their own fun, which was Winning. I capitalize that because that was what they were interested in. Winning. Period. WAAC. Get the most expensive cards they could, the rarest, and whup anyone that tried to play them with tourney decks. Including people that just wanted to try out their play for fun not for tourney themed decks.

I didn't enjoy myself, and I stopped playing.

Now, take this over to 40k. If you're playing against someone you don't have to lose, you don't have to throw the game to make them feel better. But you also don't have to play your tourney list, you don't have to play like there's some cash prize if you win. Be nice about it, make the game fun for the other player. If they lose say "hey, that's cool. Remember when you destroyed my <insert thing here>?" or "What you did with that squad was great! With this other squad, maybe try this"

In other words, don't be a dick about it. :P
Great post. Well said.

Orbital
06-12-2007, 17:17
Guys, let me see if I can distill this down a little bit:

"When playing against a kid, say, 10 years of age or less make sure you give them enough challenge so they learn something about the game... but don't resort to beating them down in the way you would with an older, more seasoned and mature player".

Is there anyone here who would disagree with this as a basic maxim?

ChaosMaster
06-12-2007, 17:23
Is there anyone here who would disagree with this as a basic maxim?
Great post, succinct and well said. Unfortunately, based on some of the threads I've seen on this forum, like the one a while back about "have you ever thrown your dice at your opponent?" in which people proudly, unashamedly posted that they had and felt good about it, sadly and absolutely there will be some people out there who disagree with you and who will happily post to that effect. After it gets ugly enough here with posts from those "wonderful" sociopathic people, the MODs will then be forced to close this thread and possibly delete it entirely like the aforementioned one about throwing things.

Orbital
06-12-2007, 17:26
Great post, succinct and well said. Unfortunately, based on some of the threads I've seen on this forum, like the one a while back about "have you ever thrown your dice at your opponent?" in which people proudly, unashamedly posted that they had and felt good about it, sadly and absolutely there will be some people out there who disagree with you and who will happily post to that effect. After it gets ugly enough here with posts from those "wonderful" sociopathic people, the MODs will then be forced to close this thread and possibly delete it entirely like the aforementioned one about throwing things.
You know what? Those people to whom you are referring are more child than adult... and they can suck it. If you can't get your act together to have a good-natured 45 minute game once or twice in a blue moon with a little kid without having to throw dice in their face or or pound the crap out of their army just to "teach them a lesson", then that's not a 40k-related problem. That's a character-related problem. And it's beyond the purview of this forum.

ChaosMaster
06-12-2007, 17:34
You know what? Those people to whom you are referring are more child than adult... and they can suck it. If you can't get your act together to have a good-natured 45 minute game once or twice in a blue moon with a little kid without having to throw dice in their face or or pound the crap out of their army just to "teach them a lesson", then that's not a 40k-related problem. That's a character-related problem. And it's beyond the purview of this forum.
I have yet to see a post from you that didn't make me feel a bit better about this forum. You make me want to move to Canada. ;) You and our current so-called gov't. :cries:

There was also a thread recently wherein people unashamedly posted that they had no interest in helping new gamers and hobbyists, only in beating them as badly as possible in games because they'd "learn better that way". As if there is any fun in winning when there is no challenge at all. People like that drive new gamers right out of the hobby in disgust. I think we need two forums, one for the WAAC sociopaths with inferiority complexes and one for hobbyists and people who want the hobby to be fun for everyone.

Preston
06-12-2007, 17:37
I think we need two forums, one for the WAAC sociopaths with inferiority complexes and one for hobbyists and people who want the hobby to be fun for everyone.

What if I don't want the hobby to be fun for the WAAC sociopaths though? Then I wouldn't be including everyone. :D

Thoth62
06-12-2007, 17:39
In all honesty, I think this whole thread made me feel a little bit better about this community. It's good to know that not everybody is, as you describe, a "WAAC sociopath with inferiority complexes". It's a game, and it's nice to see that we can still enjoy playing without being total *****.

Imperialis_Dominatus
06-12-2007, 21:38
I....I think I love you. Will you marry me?

Run away, jfjnpxmy! :eek:

Just kidding. :D

BFeeder
06-12-2007, 22:08
2 games, the first happened a couple of weeks ago at my local gw...

Necrons vs Chaos, both the guys were around their late teens I think, and along with the usual friendly smack talk there were several silly arguments over rules. Things like:

1: The mono's supposed "sniping" ability with the particle whip (because of it's AP1 centre).
2: Whether a monolith can actually shoot over level 3 terrain at the rhino behind it.
3: Whether the area of woods blocking the LOS is actually level 3.
etc.

Suffice to say I quickly lost interest.


Another time I watched a friend of mine get absolutely shredded by some guy's uber cheese army. It was something like:

SM Captain w/ terminator armour (no other wargear, not even a gun)
Minimum size Terminator command squad w/ 2 asscannons
2x minimum size scout squads w/ sniper rifles + missile launchers
9x landspeeder tornadoes w/ asscannons
3 whirlwinds
in 1500pts

Admittedly the worst thing was that my friend wasn't pre warned about it, and apparently his opponent was infamous in the store for having cheese lists (ie. empire gunlines deployed on the table edge etc.) he was only around 14-15 years old, but to me it seems very unsporting to want to win that badly in a place so "casual" as a gw store.

The kid was very irritating but in fairness he did play the game fairly and in accordance to the rules. He got banned from the store a few months later after starting a fight, it seems his empire gunline was causing that much grief to his opponent (an equally irritating kid), that his opponent "accidently" knocked one of his handgunners off the board. but thats another story :evilgrin:

azimaith
06-12-2007, 22:16
I have yet to see a post from you that didn't make me feel a bit better about this forum. You make me want to move to Canada. ;) You and our current so-called gov't. :cries:
What the hell does that have anything to do with it.



There was also a thread recently wherein people unashamedly posted that they had no interest in helping new gamers and hobbyists, only in beating them as badly as possible in games because they'd "learn better that way".

Wow dramatize much? Right, because if we think they'll learn better if they play a real game we obviously don't care about them or want them to learn. If I didn't give flying rats ass about whether they learned I wouldn't play them, they aren't challenging, the games take forever and you have to hold their hand through every aspect of it so they don't take 20 minutes looking up everything. I play them because I want to instill a desire to improve themselves in the game by self-accomplishment and experience, not by whining and waiting for people to throw games to them.



As if there is any fun in winning when there is no challenge at all. People like that drive new gamers right out of the hobby in disgust. I think we need two forums, one for the WAAC sociopaths with inferiority complexes and one for hobbyists and people who want the hobby to be fun for everyone.
I don't think i've seen anyone whose gone out to drive people out of the game, people have different styles of teaching.

Orbital
06-12-2007, 22:22
What the hell does that have anything to do with it.


Wow dramatize much? Right, because if we think they'll learn better if they play a real game we obviously don't care about them or want them to learn. If I didn't give flying rats ass about whether they learned I wouldn't play them, they aren't challenging, the games take forever and you have to hold their hand through every aspect of it so they don't take 20 minutes looking up everything. I play them because I want to instill a desire to improve themselves in the game by self-accomplishment and experience, not by whining and waiting for people to throw games to them.


I don't think i've seen anyone whose gone out to drive people out of the game, people have different styles of teaching.

Would you be willing to accept this as a decent bottom-line everyone can agree on?

"When playing against a kid, say, 10 years of age or less make sure you give them enough challenge so they learn something about the game... but don't resort to beating them down in the way you would with an older, more seasoned and mature player".

sumgy
06-12-2007, 22:44
well I played this kid with an sm army, we're playing 1000 points, he kills my immolator (i'm playing witch hunters) first turn and moves all his stuff forward he also kills my cannoness. I shoot at his dreadnaught with a plasma pistol, it does no damage, and he says that it wouldn't have mattered anyway, because his techmarine (with full servo harness) "makes them invincible" yes he had two. I also shot into his close comat terminators and killed a couple. now he tells me that the dreadnaughts are venerable (apparantly he thought we were playing 1500 points and he still had like 2000) he charges his termies into a sister squad and i actually beat them in close combat. then he charges his bikes into a different squad, and at this point I decide that it's not worth it to keep playing and give up

azimaith
07-12-2007, 02:13
I think our only difference Orbital, is the way in which we play a more "seasoned" player. I don't pull out the all stops for anyone to win(Because that ends up making you an ass), even in tournaments against an ****** I barely move to the RAW aisle.

I don't really get this separate ways of playing. I wouldn't "forget" to fire units unless actually forgot to fire them. I wouldn't make stupid tactical moves unless I make a real mistake/or make a bad gamble. But at the same time I won't set up all the terrain in my favor or abuse LOS against an experienced player either.

ChaosMaster
07-12-2007, 02:43
It appears that either I'm being baited to feed a troll or my post just slightly above this one struck a nerve with someone, someone who doesn't like the idea of teaching and assisting new hobbyists. Sorry if some random person reading my post took it personally, but if the shoe fits, wear it. Either way, I stand by my post and I'm not going to engage in a battle about it, especially not with someone apparently upset by the idea of assisting new hobbyists. Aren't trolls only in WHFB anyway? :D

Orbital
07-12-2007, 03:10
I think our only difference Orbital, is the way in which we play a more "seasoned" player. I don't pull out the all stops for anyone to win(Because that ends up making you an ass), even in tournaments against an ****** I barely move to the RAW aisle.
And that's a difference between us, is it?

cailus
07-12-2007, 03:16
Guys, let me see if I can distill this down a little bit:

"When playing against a kid, say, 10 years of age or less make sure you give them enough challenge so they learn something about the game... but don't resort to beating them down in the way you would with an older, more seasoned and mature player".

Is there anyone here who would disagree with this as a basic maxim?

Great advice. Very common sense.

As for kids, I generally don't play them as I don't have the patience.

But the most frustrating games have been against adults who cheat - in my old club 75% of gamers were blatant cheats. In my last one there was one guy who cheated a lot but he doesn't play anymore.

Danimals
07-12-2007, 03:55
let's keep the philosophical discussions about morality and teaching values for another post...on with the absurd stories of people who lack the common decency to game maturely!

Misanthrope
07-12-2007, 04:14
Well hell, next time I'm playing a game of ice hockey with some friends, and a little kid wants to join in, as soon as he steps foot on the ice I'll check him with the full force of my body, and as he's regaining consciousness I'll give him a wink and ask, "having fun yet?!"

Tourge
07-12-2007, 04:32
Well hell, next time I'm playing a game of ice hockey with some friends, and a little kid wants to join in, as soon as he steps foot on the ice I'll check him with the full force of my body, and as he's regaining consciousness I'll give him a wink and ask, "having fun yet?!"

Yeah that's the best way to teach! Whoop their ass! Forget about guiding them and teaching them what things do and how things work so they get a good grasp of the basics. Just beat the crap out of them when they don't even know the rules. Hell yes!! :rolleyes:

Phoenix_79
07-12-2007, 04:41
when i was wee young un i had one of the most enjoyable games ever...but infuriating for my opponent (this is in whfb sorry :( )

I was playing brettonians in a siege against beastmen it s a long tale but it involved uber bowman accuracy a beastlord being slain by a squire and a huge unit of minotaurs running away unfortunatley i used up all my luck for the next 2 years :(

I had something similar happen waaaaaaay back when 3rd ed was released, I was SM's versus Tyranids (this is pre-'nid codex, as well). My scout snipers are happily plinking away at this 'fex, getting it down to one wound, it charges into combat and whack, down it goes. Zero dead scouts. My opponent was not best pleased, but then he was one of those "whoops, I knocked my hive tyrant over, let me put it back...." (an inch closer - I was just out of rapid fire range yet it managed to charge me... go figure) players. He hated losing, would do anything to avoid it.

Treadhead_1st
07-12-2007, 05:33
Worst game?

40K introduction league - was told by a staffer that I had to take it, to get a certificate, just to be able to play in the store.

Anyways, at the culmination of the course, there was a mini-tournament.

For every win, you got 3 points. For every draw 2, for every loss 1. When you had 5 points you could increase the size of your army by 50pts.

Started on 750pts, and had a few decent games against some well-taught kids, and pulled a few draws (I was playing an Imperial Guard list, with something like a Mortar Squad, cheap HQ squad, a Platoon of 2 squads and a few conscripts, and Inq. and an Eversor - can't really remember, was a long time ago, but I digress).

Anyways, came up against a guy slightly older than me (probably 15 or so), playing Chaos (Ver 3.5). His army was: 2 min. sized (5 man, IIRC) Chaos squads with ML, a Havok squad with 4x HB and Infiltrate, and a tricked-to-the-nines Chaos Daemon Prince with about 13, no AS attacks on the charge.

Basically, no one could stand up to the list, as most of the new kids had taken Marines, along with a good smattering of Tau and Eldar.

This guy was a complete jerk about everything, and laughed that no-one could beat his Prince. Quite rightly too, as it came into the region of about 250pts, and everyone else fielded Fire-Warrior heavy lists, etc. The only good thing about the battle was I killed more CSM with Mortars than anything else in my army (a whole 3 dead CSM though...) and I held up his Lord for 2 turns with my Assassin.

I got wiped off the board in 4 turns though. Shed loads of shooting and a nigh-unbeatable Prince (no one packed enough firepower to kill it). The fact he HAD to win, and gloated about beating people made it rather awkward in the store - and a kid actually quit because of it (the guy started on "Yeah, well Wolves are a sh** Marine army anyway, and you played really cr**"

Worst thing was, he got rewarded by the system - in about 2 weeks he was playing with 1000pts, while everyone else was still on 800 or so.

Not a fun game, or fun to witness any he played in.

Khorneflakes
07-12-2007, 06:20
Mine was a couple of years ago at a club I go to, 2 hours away and I got there a little late and most of my regular opponents had games under way. Anyway this 13 year old comes over and asks if I want to play his marines and I said sure didnt want to travel all that way and not get a game, so we set up the table, rolled missions and deployed our armies ( mine was Orkz ).
I was watching him set up and didnt think much of it till the second turn rolled around when I noticed he had 3 HQ choices, 2 of which were named characters and he had 4 Heavy Supports ( 1 was a Razorback with no turret and I thought it was a Rhino ). So I pulled him up on it and he didnt realise about the FOC so I said its a bit late and he should get it right next time, so I let it slide, then he rolled for reserves and 100s of Terminaters beamed in, which I wasnt too worried about as my boyz were in assault range and then I said can I hav a quik look at his list and he said he didnt bring his 2200 point list with em :wtf: I thought, I had a 1500 point army!
Probably should have sorted that out at the start but I beat him in the end, as it was a Take and Hold and he was to busy killing my boyz and not thinking of the mission and ignored my 14 strong Shoota mob which took the Objective! So from now on I organize my games for the following meeting and points limit!:D:D

silashand
07-12-2007, 06:42
You know what? Those people to whom you are referring are more child than adult... and they can suck it. If you can't get your act together to have a good-natured 45 minute game once or twice in a blue moon with a little kid without having to throw dice in their face or or pound the crap out of their army just to "teach them a lesson", then that's not a 40k-related problem. That's a character-related problem. And it's beyond the purview of this forum.

Amen to that. Very well said.

Cheers, Gary

Nabeshin1106
07-12-2007, 07:04
The can only think of two instances where I've been bugged in a game.

First one was during a 3 round team tournament. First two games are wonderful, couldn't have asked for better games. Last round comes up. The guys spend forever moving units, and then take forever shooting, etc. they were playing Guard and horde-ish Marines, so this didn't help. We then got into quite a few rules disputes. It probably wasn't as bad as I remember it, but it was definitely a bad way to end a rather great series of games.

The other thing is just playing against certain younger kids that frequent our shop. They generally take illegal lists, no matter how many times we correct them, and won't accept that they're wrong about a rule, even if shown the exact rule in the rulebook.

general things that can get on your nerves.

Preston
07-12-2007, 07:37
The other thing is just playing against certain younger kids that frequent our shop. They generally take illegal lists, no matter how many times we correct them, and won't accept that they're wrong about a rule, even if shown the exact rule in the rulebook.

general things that can get on your nerves.

See, that's where I'd draw the line at playing against children. It's one thing to be teaching them the game and have them make mistakes, but when they start blatantly cheating then it's "Look, you either play the game by the rules, or you don't play."

Kor Phaeron
07-12-2007, 09:00
Mine is a fantasy example rather than 40k and is from about 9-10 years ago when i was a GW Shrewsbury regular.

There was a kid that started played Undead and his force was about 80% to 90% characters with Nagash making an appearance in everygame.

He had decided that the quickest way to make an army was to disregard the rules and pick all the most expensive models which were characters.

GW stores really let too much go, IMO they should enforce all the rules especially with regards to army composition.

fengor
07-12-2007, 09:26
And that's a difference between us, is it?

I'm with azimaith on this one. I generally dont change the way i play. But my playing skills are bad enough so that it wont make a difference anyway ;p

What i kinda find irritating in this whole discussion is that people equate playing normally against a kid as beating them at all costs. And that kids only have fun when they win.

I dont find this true. Like azimaith i wouldnt make any blatant mistakes just because my opponent is a kid, i find that disrespectful. But playing normally doesnt mean for me that i pull out all dirty tricks i know to ensure i win either.Playing normally is just that: play a normal casualo game of 40k under friends. No obligation to win OR loose.

Orbital
07-12-2007, 09:37
I'm with azimaith on this one. I generally dont change the way i play. But my playing skills are bad enough so that it wont make a difference anyway ;p
What Azimath said was: "I think our only difference Orbital, is the way in which we play a more 'seasoned' player. I don't pull out the all stops for anyone to win(Because that ends up making you an ass), even in tournaments against an ****** I barely move to the RAW aisle." What I got from that was him saying that he doesn't do things that make you an ass, and that's why he's different than me which, if you think about it, is something of an insult and a misinterpretation of what I'm trying to get across. That's why I replied the way I did - to clarify I was really reading it the way he intended. Not that I think this is about me or anything; I just wanted to make sure I was reading the subtext properly.

Orbital
07-12-2007, 10:30
I dont find this true. Like azimaith i wouldnt make any blatant mistakes just because my opponent is a kid, i find that disrespectful. But playing normally doesnt mean for me that i pull out all dirty tricks i know to ensure i win either.Playing normally is just that: play a normal casualo game of 40k under friends. No obligation to win OR loose.

With kids or newbies what I normally do is play normally with a balanced list, but I stop along the way to feed them bits of information which could help them out. For instance, I might try to help him think of things he might not otherwise: I'll ask him "What's the best use of your Devastators in this turn? And why do you think that?" or "What kind of position is your Chaplain going to be in after he's killed those three Rangers and is standing alone in the middle of nowhere?" or "Where will these Howling Banshees be next turn? Why are they going there?" If he loses, then he loses... but we'll talk about it while it's happening and after as well so that he doesn't feel humiliated or discouraged. Why? Because he's a kid.

No area of effective education throws you into the deep end and expects you to swim right away. The military doesn't put live ammo in your hand on the first day, colleges don't make you take the final exam in your first class, and I don't expect a kid to know how to deal with Harlequins or Falcons when he's only played a few or no games. I'm a teacher and a parent and I know that they make training wheels for a reason. Playing at an appropriate age level for a kid (and, hello? You're the grown-up, so you can do that) doesn't mean you're going soft on them.

fengor
07-12-2007, 10:51
ok, seems we talked about different subjects then. Helping the kid out and giving tactical advice i would do as well. Nothing wrong with that. I'm jsut against making DELIBERATE wrong decisions or deliberately forgetting things to make it easier on him.

As i said i play casual so no pointwhy you shouldnt give your opponent some advice to help him out.

Of course there is games and teaching games as well.

Games are for me normal casual game with the intent of both having fun. Tactical advise may be given in certain situations. For example if he is about to shoot a squad he wants to charge later and the casualities from shooting would prevent him from reaching the enemy. I could point that out to him or i could just remove the models from the back of the unit to give my opponent an easier time. I rather point it out to him since i feel he learns more about the game that way.

Teaching games on the other hand are specifically set up game situations. Where you set up a specific goal for that lesson and then set up a game situationa ccording to that goal and take a look at the situation from different angles, trying out a few different tactical solutions to see how hey play out.

And of course theere are various degrees between that.

What bugs me is the assumption that if you dont hand the kid a win you are a total dick trying to beat them in a pulp to satisfy your ego. I think it is very well doable that i can play 'normally'with a kid and we both have a good time about it. And no matter how old i was, a win that i didnt earn because it was handed to me always bugged me more than a loss.

jfrazell
07-12-2007, 12:09
Well hell, next time I'm playing a game of ice hockey with some friends, and a little kid wants to join in, as soon as he steps foot on the ice I'll check him with the full force of my body, and as he's regaining consciousness I'll give him a wink and ask, "having fun yet?!"

Don't forget help him up and then high stick him. :eek:

Voodoo Boyz
07-12-2007, 12:20
Not really any evidence of an infuriating game, but it goes with the stories laid out here.

Last weekend a guy I had talked to a few times about the game was in the shop and was looking for a 40k game. I had played 2 games of Fantasy that day but had the Marines in the car so I said sure.

Newer guy, not out of his teens yet, but he was old enough to be knowledgeable and not have the "kid aura". So as I walk out to my car and get the Marines I pick out one of my 1500 point "super friendly" Mech Marines lists. Land Raider Crusaider, Assault Termies, two rhino squads, vindi, pred, speeder. I remember thinking "I'll take it easy on the guy, he's still wet behind the ears."

I bring it in, start the setup, and he pulls out ultramarines. Well they were painted that color, but he was using traits for the army. So I ended up playing an "Ultramarines vs. Ultramarines" battle, how wonderfully ironic and bad. Oh well, at least he was using traits, so I could justify it as us hunting down the heretic company or something.

Then he starts to pull out an all heavy weapon army, close to what I ran as my tourney list! HAH! Sweet, sweet irony, he's got super static firepower that just puts you in a bad position and here I am with the super-fluffy mech list about to get wreaked if I don't win first turn!

I didn't win first turn.
After explaining to him how "Tank Hunters" worked, the opening Lascannon shot against the LRC (that I couldn't hide) got penetrated and died.

End run of it was that I managed to get a few termies and a tactical squad into assault and rolled up most of his army, but a pred I couldn't kill and some deepstriking terminators got him two quarters to my none and I lost. Not a bad game, but he was obviously new since terminators that started in the middle of my table quarter ended up on the far edge of HIS starting table quarter, with their land raider blown up before it could move.

So after the game I explained to him the mistakes he made, and gave him pointers on how to run the static marine army a lot better. Not an infuriating game, I knew I was losing it if I didn't get first turn and I did even though I was playing better. Still, I heard that kharma has a way of biting you in the ass, and I guess this is mine for running a static marine army at tournaments last year. :D

Logarithm Udgaur
07-12-2007, 15:23
I do remember coming pretty close to losing my cool a few times. I was playing a mega-battle and there was a guy on my team (it was 4 on 4). Every time I wanted to move or shoot or do anything he would lean against me, face over my shoulder (no exaggeration) and reach over and literally take the dice out of my hand as I was about to roll them and tell me how many I had to roll, what numbers I had to get, who I should be shooting at, etc.
After a few turns of him treating me like the stupidest kid he ever met (I'm 12 years his senior), I lost my cool. First (and last) time in any 40k game I ever did. I put on my riot control voice and said "Give me some space. And I mean right now." in a tone not unlike the sound of a car door being repeatedly slammed. Everything got kinda quiet in the room for a while... but it was all cool. He didn't touch me anymore. In fact, he never looked me in the eye again.
My friends and I still kinda laugh about it to this day.
p.s. Man. That story was boring.
I cannot believe that this guy walked under his own power after this. In every group I have ever played in (40K, Roleplaying, Craps, whathaveyou) touching someone elses dice unbidden is grounds for homicide.


Frankly, I think that if someone can't take losing thier first time, they shouldn't play till they develop and mature to the point that they can.
Truer words were never spoken.

i'm very fortunate to not have people like that if anything we had a loudmouth who had a completly illegal list (landspeeders, whrilwinds and dreadnoughts)
If this is indeed an illegal list (I have never read the SM Codex), it makes my worse game ever even worse. I was playing a veteran of some years in my second or third game ever. I had a LAtD list mainly featuring traitor guard with a Russ, Sentinel and a CC tooled DP. My opponent had three tac squads in razorbacks w/twin-linked lascannon, an Assault Cannon speeder, Whirlwind, Scout Sniper squad, Venerable dread, Command squad and some Assault Cannon Terminators. Needless to say I got trashed by turn four. The thing that made it a bad game for me however was the manner in which my Daemon Prince returned to the grave. After charging the Venerable Dread with my DP, I managed to immobilize it and take out its Lascannon. My opponent told me that since I had immobilized the dread, he and my DP were no longer locked in combat and he could shoot my DP, with his command squad. They whittled him down to one wound after which they charged him and dispatched him in close combat. Now the no longer locked thing sounded fishy to me but I was willing to just get on with the game. Only later did I look up this section of rules and find out that this is bunk. Maybe my opponent was thinking of a previous edition of the rules as this was just after 4th edition came out, but it still left a bad taste in my mouth.

Cirrus the Blue
07-12-2007, 16:52
Nobody expected that though. Who in their right mind would try to utterly annihilate a little kid that doesn't even know how to play the game?

My store has many power gamers who ruthlessly crush their opponents, but they all have a sense of decency when it comes to playing a little kid (or so I thought until I saw that).

Go figure, at a GW here in town a couple years ago, there used to be a ****** like this ON STAFF!!!! He got canned for his nasty attitude later on, but he was a right jerkoff and it certainly took long enough for the manager to do anything about him.

- Cirrus

Richter Kless
07-12-2007, 16:56
Meaning that all the persons not with Asperger should feel some sort of obligation to show utter contempt to new players by giving them freebies?
Lawdy, but this is one helluva twisted view. What I'm saying is if you're not some kind of self-absorbed, socially retarded doofus, then you shouldn't see the harm in throwing the game to a goddamned child.

I sure hope that's not your description of someone with asperger, cause you can bet your ass that aspergers (like me) are going to be offended by that.

Now I am just a guy on the internet whom you'll never meet, but you might want to check your sources about mental distortions, before making such remarks in public.

Orbital
07-12-2007, 17:18
Just so we're clear: When playing against a newb or a kid, you have more options than just "Throw the game by playing like a completely incompetent nitwit" and "Pound him down so bad his unborn children will be bruised".

fengor
07-12-2007, 17:24
yupp, thats a statement i can fully agree on

Imperialis_Dominatus
07-12-2007, 17:46
Good ol' Orbital. I agree.

azimaith
07-12-2007, 20:45
What Azimath said was: "I think our only difference Orbital, is the way in which we play a more 'seasoned' player. I don't pull out the all stops for anyone to win(Because that ends up making you an ass), even in tournaments against an ****** I barely move to the RAW aisle." What I got from that was him saying that he doesn't do things that make you an ass, and that's why he's different than me which, if you think about it, is something of an insult and a misinterpretation of what I'm trying to get across. That's why I replied the way I did - to clarify I was really reading it the way he intended. Not that I think this is about me or anything; I just wanted to make sure I was reading the subtext properly.
I'm glad your mature because I totally missed that interpretation till I re-read it in your post :P Sorry, about that, I didn't mean to infer you were an ass.

Anyhow, I'd generally give tactical advice to anyone I played if I wasn't sure it would irritate them. Thus if its a kid I figure they may want it, but if its against an experienced gamer I figure that giving them tactical advice would be annoying to them (and even there I occasionally slip up and say something, luckily they just nod and do what they were doing before.)

Thoth62
07-12-2007, 21:52
i'm very fortunate to not have people like that if anything we had a loudmouth who had a completly illegal list (landspeeders, whrilwinds and dreadnoughts) and his voice could be heard throughout the shop and outside.Then One day he got thrown out permament for hitting someone it was funny as hell watching him go in a complete fit :)

This doesn't look like an illegal list to me, unless he took too many... Landspeeders are FA, Whirlwinds are HS, and Dreads are Elites... They all occupy a different slot in the FOC.

Orbital
07-12-2007, 22:09
I'm glad your mature...
On some days. :)

Thanks for the note.

Nephilim of Sin
07-12-2007, 22:52
Just so we're clear: When playing against a newb or a kid, you have more options than just "Throw the game by playing like a completely incompetent nitwit" and "Pound him down so bad his unborn children will be bruised".

I think that this sums up that whole argument beautifully, and I think that is where some of the confusion may have occured. I for one will teach somebody and offer them advice in game, but I will not try to lose or forget a turn (well, I mean on purpose....it has happened:cries:.). Good job making everything clear.

I think one thing that would help is something mention before (although, that was a horrid game) is, if you have a buddy, and some kids come in, maybe playing teams is the best way to teach them. That way, they get a better understanding, and a teammate giving them advice comes across better.

Death Korp
07-12-2007, 22:56
I have ye olde story to tell you my good old Warseer friends

I had just painted a combat patrol force of Black Templars. Yes! I can play with a painted force! I went down to local GW, and this small 6-7 yr old kid wanted to play me. 'Ok' i said, and we set up. I had an army list with me tell at least what i had, and showed that i had a legal force. The other kid had nothing (then again, he was very young). He shot some of my crusaders down as they came in and wiped the floor of his tactical squad (i was playing his marines) Then, his 10 man assault squad, led by a Libraian with 3 wounds (Illegal) :p came in with all sorts of crud (he even had a plauge banner from Chaos Marines :eek: :D). He failed miserably with his dice rolls, and i wiped out his squad.

I won the game fair and square with a legal army (this kid has played alot by the way, he wasn't an noobie, and he was palying like he knew the rules), and he had a illegal army. He didn't say much, and went to play another game. I've seen him still use that same damned plauge banner, until someone told him it was illegal.

This has become a very interesting thread btw. Just lets not make it 'too' mad (but we are mad, aren't we? :wtf:)

DK

Calden
07-12-2007, 23:25
Best way to handle a game against a beginner/youngster? Communication. Talk them through things if they don't seem clear on the rules, and explain anything to them that they don't understand. Had codex & rulebook close at hand and be prepared to point things out to them, and reference things they may not have seen before (This happens alot when youngsters start, as usually only one of their little group will have actuall read the rules, and so their knowledge of the rules can often be very lacking in certain areas).

I've only ever bumped into two young gamers (Around 10yrs old) at my local club, who came to the club for the first time with a good grasp of the basic rules, and even they were missing the ones I often see overlooked by beginners: Morale, Torrent of Fire etc.

I don't find that "letting them win" helps though, I don't tend to play as aggressivly as I might normally, and will be all too happy to give them a few pointers on the use of their units (Often they will assume that a unit can/can't do something, purely because a friend might have said something to them in the past, and they don;t have sufficient knowledge of the rules to know something is incorrect). Besides, if they see you do something they've never considered before, they take that away and back to the gaming with freinds their own age.




As for most infuriating game I've ever seen? Hmm, well I am constantly infuriated by the many youngsters I see using terrain in completely the wrong way! Usually only in deployment zones, if any at all. Takes a long time to break that habbit of theirs, but they do see the balance eventually!

Mott
08-12-2007, 00:02
8-10 year olds shouldnt be playing 40k.

Cause they shouldnt have that much money to spend on it.

Their parents shouldnt buy it for them because its a waste.

Buying them a few to build and paint (more like draw on with marker)

Kids who start that early are doomed to "grow out of it"

Kids should be introduced to it when they hit that age that everything they did earlier in their life is now "childish" and "uncool" Ie-12-15

I started when i was about 13 i think, and have long passed the age where outgrowing is an issue.

And id never waste my time playing with a rly young kid. They even really play.

Thats what the redshirts get paid to do :D

Orbital
08-12-2007, 00:08
8-10 year olds shouldnt be playing 40k.

Cause they shouldnt have that much money to spend on it.

Their parents shouldnt buy it for them because its a waste.

Buying them a few to build and paint (more like draw on with marker)

Kids who start that early are doomed to "grow out of it"

Kids should be introduced to it when they hit that age that everything they did earlier in their life is now "childish" and "uncool" Ie-12-15

I started when i was about 13 i think, and have long passed the age where outgrowing is an issue.

And id never waste my time playing with a rly young kid. They even really play.

Thats what the redshirts get paid to do :D

Mott, I very very rarely reply to a post with what I'm about to say, and I mean no offense by it. Never the less, let me just chime in with a big, fat "Whatever".

Rombo Baak
08-12-2007, 05:05
Haha. I remember my brother looking at his daemonhunter codex and going "Wait, the culexus (I think that's the one) gets plus +1 shot for every pysker within 12 inches, and all Grey Knights are psykers!"

I'm afraid this is almost true. Not every model in the daemonhunters army is a psyker, but there are lots of them. You can actually make a culexus weapon assault 30, or even more if you have an eldar army close by :-D You must remember though that every psyker within 6" has to roll morale, and the ld of every unit within 12" is reduced to 7!

The most infuriating game was against one of the regular guys in my lgs. He was going to a tourney and asked me for tactics and list building. He's playing Tau and I told him about this "Mechanized infantry" thing I had read so much about. Next day we played a game to try his new list. I play with daemonhunters, not many options in the antitank department, 2 Land Raiders and a Dreadnought with TL Las cannon and ML.

He utterly wipped the floor with my army, couldn't kill anything whatsoever, even as I got the first turn all I could do was to shock one of his hammerheads two turns in a row. And I could do that because my callidus got it on the open in front of my LRs. We've played some more games after that but I told him I'll never again play against that list, never. BTW, he finished second in the tourney and it was his first one :-D

the nightbringer
09-12-2007, 14:09
alright i have a certain person at my store and he insists on cheating..... no blatently but you know nudgind models or terrain here, fudging his movement there, and the like.... he also plays tau...(groan) so any way a man at our store who plays ultramarines drop pod with tigurius and fear of darkness decides he wants to play him..... LONG story short he got so mad at his loss he threw a fire warrior at the ultra marine player... it was quite entertaining.

I know someone exacly like that. And he plays tau. (I'm guessing it tau mainly.)

FrankManic
10-12-2007, 03:01
When I was twelve I tried to play this game. I showed up for a gaming event with the beakies out of the third ed. box, a rhino, and a smattering of other things. I may have had a bike chaplain. Eitherway, someone loaned me some other stuff to fill out my list, and they set me up against an Eldar player who proceeded to cut me up and rub salt in the wounds. After about three turns dying horribly regardless of what I did I promptly surrendered and left. Didn't pick up the game again for ten years.

Nephilim of Sin
10-12-2007, 04:47
8-10 year olds shouldnt be playing 40k....


Ugh. Here is where I am torn. For starters, I began collecting when I was young, maybe around 11 or 12. My girlfriend's son was 11 (I got him into it).
I definately do not want to stymie a child's learning process.

That being said....The model boxes themselves state "recommended for children ages 12 and up". Some of this has to do with the models themselves, and to prevent a lawsuit, but also because of the complexity of the rules. Not to mention, the material is definately NOT pg. That is just the average age of the maturity level they believe that children can grasp the game.

So here is my consensus (and I may be hated upon, if so, sorry): I do not see a problem with children playing so long as the parent is involved in some way. Now, I am not saying the parent has to play, but there is no reason that 40k or the gaming store should be a babysitter, which is what happens with a lot of the younger gamers. It reminds me of when I worked at a video store, and parents would come in to rent Vice City, Leisure Suit Larry, or the Playboy video game for their children(ages 6-10). I thought this was horrible, but the parents did not care because it would shut the kids up, and they didn't have to worry about being parents.

To summerize, yes I think children should be allowed to play the game. However, I will not play a child unless their parent was around (unless it was in some sort of youth center). With a proper parent using proper parental supervision, I think a lot of the problems with lost models, touching this and that, and powergaming jerks could be avoided.

Orbital
10-12-2007, 04:58
I do not see a problem with children playing so long as the parent is involved in some way.
Bang on. Being involved is what parenting is supposed to be about, and this is a great example of that.

Brother Fenix
10-12-2007, 07:18
So here is my consensus (and I may be hated upon, if so, sorry): I do not see a problem with children playing so long as the parent is involved in some way. Now, I am not saying the parent has to play, but there is no reason that 40k or the gaming store should be a babysitter, which is what happens with a lot of the younger gamers. It reminds me of when I worked at a video store, and parents would come in to rent Vice City, Leisure Suit Larry, or the Playboy video game for their children(ages 6-10). I thought this was horrible, but the parents did not care because it would shut the kids up, and they didn't have to worry about being parents.

To summerize, yes I think children should be allowed to play the game. However, I will not play a child unless their parent was around (unless it was in some sort of youth center). With a proper parent using proper parental supervision, I think a lot of the problems with lost models, touching this and that, and powergaming jerks could be avoided.

In short I said the exact same thing,....Can I get an AMEN!!

ChesneySwoopingHawks
10-12-2007, 11:50
Some of you guys have real issues!

I don't mind playing a child of 12 or under who doesn't know the rules because I understand that our hobby depends on new blood. All the things you love about GW are totally reliant on 10 year olds buying Space Marines.

60% of what my Local Games Workshop sells is Space Marines or Macragge Box Sets. Those poorly painted Ultramarines with the shoulder pads stuck on the wrong way are funding awesome things like new releases and better paints/tools.

I'm guessing that GW could opperate purely through Mail Order and still make a fair amount of money, (as other producers of minatures do) the stores are not there so you can powergame each other into the ground and get off on obscure rules, they are there as recruitment centres for the hobby. Kids come in, the staff, or sometimes regulars give them a short, exciting game which does conform with basic rules and they buy a 50 starter kit. If enough kids buy Macragges, you guys get plastic deamonettes in the new year and everybodys happy.

If you are the sort of cold social retard that gets a hard on by destroying a new kids army (and therefore their interest in the hobby) then your local staff should pick up on this and ban you from the store. You are doing gamers so much harm by doing this! If you give Little Timmy a fun game in which you don't have to lose, but it has to involve both of you having a good time its more than likely a Baneblade or two will go on his Christmas list. The hobby gets more money injected into it, you benefit from awesome new plastic kits.

The other risk is if you rules-bash Little Timmys brand new Ultramairines into oblivion and he is dead by the second turn Little Timmy will grow up into Big Timmy and have a bent child-crushing list all of his own. Another powergamer is born!

I am quite passionate about this subject, sorry if I have offended anybody. I just want people to realise that newbies to our hobby whoever they are are the best thing since sliced bread. Treat them well and your store will soon have another decent gamer in its ranks.

Chesney

Rick_1138
10-12-2007, 12:38
In regards to original post and several choice replies, heres my 2 pence.

I started playing warhammer (40k) when i was about 10-11. Mostly through primary school club and Space Crusade at the time. It was mega!...anyway.

That age is wher most imnagination is sparked about these things, and getting some models to play with is always fun, especially as it was second ed at the time, and my mates and i just used to throw mashes of models across the table (not literally!) using random floor map we had with squares to count distance....how we laughed in later life.

Anyway, GW's policy was to always let new kids win their intro game, as this is more appealing than losing, and will prompt a return visit. My mates have both been GW managers and they are always really good with the kids, and i have given a few intro games in my time.

the thing is we are all powergamers, we go to a lot of tournies and play hard, cheese infested beardriddled lists...why? Coz everyone else at the tourney does! lol

We often play each other with these armies to try out strategies etc for a upcoming T, however during many intro games i have used my power gaming list to play a kid, as i gave him my other power gaming army, so we both had hard armies and i played to lose (not cheating, but 'forgetting' little things like psychic powers or an assault move etc.) this gave tghe kid a good game and he won, but only by a little, so he wanted to play again.)

a few years later the guy is a regular, and now at 17 he beats me regular, (i am 26 now) and we have a laugh.

I have also given an intro game where i gave the kid my BA army which is HARD, and i used my Tau i keep for just such occasions :P. 1500, and i was given a right kickin, as i just got the bad dice rolls, and the kid was quite sharp. so i asked him if he wanted to play the other way round, we did, and he gave as good as he got, he just followed the rule book\codex and i answered any question we had. The kids dad thanked me profusely as his kid really wanted to get an army, but didn't know which and after the battle he knew what he wanted for xmas, as his dad was going nuts trying to work out what to get him.

Ended up as a Tau player that lad, and his dad gave me a 10 voucher as i helped advise him on what to get as a starter set for the kid.

I felt all warm and tingly....and i got a new termie Chaplian at the time.

mmm memories.

So to sum up, Not all powergamers are win obsessed idiots in store, only during T's does my game face come on. And also to original poster, didi the kid get a second game with someone to cheer him up, or did he go home in tears with his dad?

DartzIRL
10-12-2007, 12:40
I had the pleasure of playing some kids introductory game once. I normally wouldn't, because I'm not the best at itHe's brought a full 1500pt tau army, while I had a fieldable 1250 pts of guard... with about three template weapons. It was a fair match.

Did everything by the book...rolled for and played a cleanse mission.

I won. I played the evil enemy with great aplomb and the Tau player had a great time with it. His battlesuits hit and ran every turn and his hammerhead only went down to a lucky first turn demolisher shot. It was actually a pretty close game, and the kid enjoyed it, even though he lost.

So what if I won the game...we both had a great time. And sure, everyone loses their first. Mine was against a redshirt, and I got massacred... I killed 3 guardsment in total for the loss of my entire army. I used to see the kid occasionally when I was a regular, and he gave as good as he got and quite happily.

I would think that delioberately throwing a game to a newbie is a little patronising, even if they are a kid. I played a straight game, that was the fairest thing I could do. You shouldn't set out to massacre them entirely, just play the game as you would, be friendly, and have a good time. If the redshirts are good, they'll tell the kid all they need to know.

jfrazell
10-12-2007, 14:05
Well I think thats the issue. One is playing an introductory game with a light list, less points, or tutoring manner. The other is to take your vamped up tourney list and wail on them "because they have to learn sometime."

Komnenos
10-12-2007, 14:07
Some of you guys have real issues!

I take exception to that (not offended). Yes, this game relies on new hobbyists starting to play it, as does everything that involves human participation. For example, I sometimes play rugby with my friends in the park on Sundays (2,40m tall, 400kgs solid muscle btw). Children play near us as well, against other children, not against grown men. What would we get if we play against them? Our game is much different to theirs, even though it shares the same name and the same equipment. Would you put Gary Kasparov against a newcomer who doesn't know how the pieces move in chess? The former would get nothing from this game, the latter would also get nothing, as the master's expertise was just wasted on someone who could not possibly understand it.

It is the same in 40k. Kids who want to learn should play against other learners, preferably around their age, or against GW employees, who are paid to throw games and also teach them. Once they have reached sufficient age, maturity and knowledge they can play against veterans. I do not play against children if they are beginners or very young (read under 15). I do not get anything out of the game, win or lose, it is just a chore for me, so I don't see why I should play them at all. I am not there to teach them, I am there to play a game or two against a mature opponent and relax. I get to teach university students for a job, so I'd like to keep it that way (although they are sometimes worse than 40k kiddies). If the kids need to be introduced to the game further, they can play against their little friends. It will be more fun that way for everyone.

Plus, I reiterate, grown men playing games with children they do not know is very creepy.

Orbital
10-12-2007, 18:36
Would you put Gary Kasparov against a newcomer who doesn't know how the pieces move in chess?
No, Gary... but I'd put a seasoned vet up in a game with a newbie.

One thing I remember when I was starting karate is that the white belts -the complete newbs- would spar against the black belts, but not against anyone who was lower in standing than that. This was because the black belts know what to teach and what not to teach, can keep themselves from getting hurt by a crazy newb who doesn't know how to pull his punches, and can also control himself enough to make sure he doesn't hurt the newb in return. It wouldn't make sense to put him up against other newbs... because who would make sure they were safe and learned something in the process?

Mentorship is a standard way of learning an art or science. If you don't want to help a newb player out then nobody can force you to do it... but there's no arguing that an experienced person taking time out to help a less experienced one is one of the best ways to confer knowledge.

lanrak
10-12-2007, 20:17
Hi all.
As we play a wide range of games at my local games club.
(Historical, sci fi and fantasy.)
All of us are relative newbs and vets depending on what game we are currently playing.:D

I have to concur that I always lean more from loosing than winning a game.However , patience and good communication , are essential for any real sort of progress at anything.

'Having to win at all costs' is completely the wrong attitiude for gaming IMO.
Two such players, playing against each other is painfull to watch!(A simple two hour game deteriated into 4 hours of bickering, 'rules lawyering'/ 'accidental repositioning' etc..)

However if I learn more about a hobby, and myself.
I am a winner , no matter what the result of the game.

TTFN
Lanrak.

PotatoLegs
10-12-2007, 21:21
I wish this thread stopped being off-topic, and switched back to being about people's infuriating moments in games. That stuff is much more fun to read

Komnenos
10-12-2007, 21:39
I wish this thread stopped being off-topic, and switched back to being about people's infuriating moments in games. That stuff is much more fun to read

Well, here's one for you then!

Small tournament up in WHW, I am playing against this IW army using my SoB. There were two missions, quarters and assassination (kill the enemy's general).

Last shooting phase of the game, my exorcist had LoS to his Chaos Lord and only to him, as he and a squad he was in had been hiding behind a forest for the entire game, but the guy screwed up in his last movement.

"I am shooting at these guys" I say, intending to blast his commander away and get it finished, but the guy disagrees, saying that he had left the squad in his movement phase (news to me btw), which was still behind the forest, thus I had no LoS to it and I had to forfeit my shooting since I nominated "these guys" and not the commander! Judge was called and his ruling basically consisted of making us dice off, which I lost, losing the tournament as well because of this.

A lot of French ensued from me and a friend, making his father, who had also been taking photographs of me throughout the game without asking for permission, intervene on how our reaction was uncalled for, since it was his son's first tournament. We replied that since he was such a rules bending **** we thought he was a veteran of the whole scene. One of the few times I really lost it over a 40k game.

jfrazell
10-12-2007, 21:50
Ohh that sucks. I had something like that happen at a pickup game, and only succeeded through force of will (old fart using parental command voice works up through 22 year olds on occasion).

SharpSilver
10-12-2007, 23:36
I take exception to that (not offended). Yes, this game relies on new hobbyists starting to play it, as does everything that involves human participation. For example, I sometimes play rugby with my friends in the park on Sundays (2,40m tall, 400kgs solid muscle btw). Children play near us as well, against other children, not against grown men.

You weigh 62.9892178 Stone of solid muscle?..

I weigh 16 stone at 240 pounds, but with that weight you could be half the England Rugby Scrum haha ;)

Back to topic:

I think one of the most infuriating things while playing are people who pick your minatures up from the table and poke them, break them, drop them, go 'HEY DAD LOOK AT THESE! COOL.. I WANT THEM LIKE THIS DAD PLEAASSSSSSEEE.. CAN I HAVE THEM???? PLEASE.... CMON.... WHY!!!....