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Hellebore
04-12-2007, 21:51
The Fall of the Eldar was one of the most significant events in 40k, with just as much depth, character development and action as the Horus Heresy.

I see no reason why it couldn't be written in the same manner as the Heresy series.

It would be a sweeping epic following different characters as they uncover/realise/revel in the lead up to the birth of Slannesh.

We could see Eldrad Ulthran and Asdrubael Vect before they followed the paths laid out for them.

In the great tradition of the Horus heresy series, we could make them closest friends so that their eventual conflict drips with tragedy.

Hellebore

Commander Dante
04-12-2007, 21:54
that would be really cool

Clockwork-Knight
04-12-2007, 21:59
Hmm... Why should Asdrubael Vect be a close friend to Eldrad Ulthran? I mean, according to Vect, he was going to be sacrificed as a young boy, and Eldrad is... well, he got retconned to be so old, I guess.

Hellebore
04-12-2007, 22:07
Hmm... Why should Asdrubael Vect be a close friend to Eldrad Ulthran? I mean, according to Vect, he was going to be sacrificed as a young boy, and Eldrad is... well, he got retconned to be so old, I guess.

The same reason it just so happens that all the loyalist primarchs killed by traitor primarchs are their bestest friends in the wholewideworld:p:rolleyes:

In order to make their deaths more tragic, they made Ferrus manus and Fulgrim bestest friends, they made Sanguinius and Horus bestest friends etc.

Who knows, maybe Asdrubael was from the same crèche/ship eldrad was from, and was captured by cultists to sacrifice...

All it matters is that it's TRAGIC damnit! :p


Hellebore

Clockwork-Knight
04-12-2007, 22:13
Ahhhh, now I understand. :D

Although, Vect is as boring as Ferrus Manus, or possibly that Salamander-primarch "What's-his-name".
How about Ahra? He surely was bestest friends with Asurmen, Baharroth, Fuegan Ra, and all those other blokes, and we all know that he must be the Dark Father of the Inccubi. :p
And then he kicks Asdrubael Vect in the nuts because he's badass and Vect is boring and ugly as hell. :D

HorgothTheGreat
04-12-2007, 22:58
I think this would be a pretty cool idea.

Felwether
04-12-2007, 22:58
I don't think there's really been enough written about Vect to call him 'Boring as hell'.

The whole fall of the Eldar thing is definitely one of the most important events in 40K history but I'm just not sure if it would translate well into something as detailed as a series of novels.

malika
04-12-2007, 23:08
Vect might be bored but certainly not [/b]boring[/i]...just wanted to say that!

Im curious how BL or GW would create a detailed story on an alien race, most stuff is focussed on the Imperium or written from their point of view...something different would be very cool!

Hellebore
04-12-2007, 23:19
If they can let Goto of all authors be the first to write about the eldar exclusively (despite there being MANY better ones on hand) I don't see why they wouldn't write about the Fall.

I think Macneil, Counter, and yes even Abnett (:angel:) would do a good job of the Fall.

Considering the Heresy series is 90% original material, the lack of info about the Fall shouldn't be a problem.

Hellebore

Kage2020
05-12-2007, 02:48
Personally, based upon how the Eldar have been (for the most part) written, I'm not sure that I would want any of the current stock of BL doing anything like this. That and the sometimes cartoon-esque approaches found in the Horus Heresy series...? The event should be a travesty, not the novel. ;)

Kage

Findecano
05-12-2007, 07:33
I actually like the tragic friends thing of the Horus Heresy series. Its tzeentch to his extremes, and tzeentch probably being the broker of the alliance which caused the Horus Heresy, his imprint is everywhere.

Gdolkin
05-12-2007, 09:25
The Fall was much more XXXrated than the Heresy..McNeill did quite a good job of writing Slaaneshification without just writing snuff/porn in Fulgrim, but I think perhaps the line between convincing accuracy and publishable material is way too fine in the case of the Fall.. Do you really want to know what those nasty Eldar were really up to to create Slaanesh?

malika
05-12-2007, 10:06
I would imagine something way more Hellraiser like ways of seeking pleasure instead of your avarge porn movie :p

Gorbad Ironclaw
05-12-2007, 11:05
The event should be a travesty, not the novel. ;)

Kage

That's what I was thinking as well. I'd really rather not see a series of novels about the fall to be honest.

2_heads_talking
05-12-2007, 12:21
If they could move the idea of "Pleasure" away from just being about sexual pleasure, to try and bring back more of what Slaanesh used to symbolise, then a series of books could be interesting. It's unlikely, though, especially after the ill-written mess that is the Horus Heresy series.

Zhai Morenn
05-12-2007, 13:06
Originally Posted by Gdolkin
Do you really want to know what those nasty Eldar were really up to to create Slaanesh?

What is to follow is the straw that broke the proverbial Camel's back in creating Slaanesh

Eldar 1: "Hey! Get out of the back room, and leave my pipe there. The brownies are almost done."
Eldar 2: "Wow it smells amazing here. What did you put in those things?"
Eldar 3: "Yeah... I've got the munchies bad guys."
Eldar 1: "I just put the most decadent and indulgent ingredients in these babies!"
Eldar 2: "Ohhhh..... these are the most amazing brownies ever... It's like an exploding star of flavor in my mouth flying at the speed of maximum enjoyment..."
Eldar 3: "Um... guys... There's something else in the oven... it's pink and has got lots of tentacles an-"

Ko Improbable
05-12-2007, 14:47
Not to mention, wouldn't such a series of novels have to start several millennia before birth of Slaanesh? That's a long span to cover, even in a series.

Kage2020
05-12-2007, 16:33
Well, to be fair the most effective way of representing the Fall would be in a stroboscopic fashion, with chapters/books being set several centuries apart and from different perspectives ('traders', etc.). Then you get the change through a jarring comparison of the differences, with reflection by the narrators who get to leap between these periods because of their longevity.

Again, though, while it is easy to see how a set of novels could be created, I personally wouldn't trust any of the current stable of authors to do it, nor those that are likely to be "up and coming" either. After seeing Rennie's "Vogue Eldar," as well as many of the other interpretations...? Well, they just don't do anything for me, but I'm sure that many people would eat it up.

Kage

Inquisitor Engel
05-12-2007, 17:23
I agree with Kage (gasp!).

I'm not entirely sure this would work well, for the main reason that Eldar aren't human and no BL book to date has featured them prominently enough for me to feel comfortable with how they treat them (Farseer was OK, but Athenys and Auric aren't exactly typical Eldar either).

The background and personality of the Eldar is best told in tidbits, flashbacks and legends, which is exactly what's going on.

Now the Lay of Ulthanash? That I'd like to see. Eldar Epic Poem, millenia pre-fall. Eldar, Illiad/Odyssey style. I might be more forgiving of culture implications for that.


Besides, everyone has their own definition of debauchery. ;)

Kandarin
05-12-2007, 21:12
It won't happen for the same reason as the rest of GW's fluff negligence of the Eldar: The 100% human customer base.

Hellebore
05-12-2007, 21:20
Well, to be fair the most effective way of representing the Fall would be in a stroboscopic fashion, with chapters/books being set several centuries apart and from different perspectives ('traders', etc.). Then you get the change through a jarring comparison of the differences, with reflection by the narrators who get to leap between these periods because of their longevity.


This is how I could see it being done. Although they didn't do the heresy that way, everything starts right on the cusp of Horus' betrayal.

Perhaps the first story revolves around the 'first' person or group that started the entire slide into debauchery. We get to see who is to blame so to speak (and it would be completely innocent or not depending on how they want to write it).



Again, though, while it is easy to see how a set of novels could be created, I personally wouldn't trust any of the current stable of authors to do it, nor those that are likely to be "up and coming" either. After seeing Rennie's "Vogue Eldar," as well as many of the other interpretations...? Well, they just don't do anything for me, but I'm sure that many people would eat it up.
Kage

Ahhh, Kage. You have a nasty tendency to impossibilify everything, without providing your own preference. You say that it can't be done by the authors as exist now - who could it be done by? Why could it be done by them? What about the eldar makes you believe that they can't be done justice.

It's all well and good saying 'I don't like it' and 'it can't be done' but unless you've got reasons for those, all that is an opinion without qualification. An unqualified opinion made as if it is true.

We know what you don't like (many, many times), but have yet to see what you do like. Perhaps because no one can live up to your hypothetical ephemeral preferences.

Please, I would like to know what you see as 'the way' to write eldar, rather than continual comments on 'the way not' to write eldar.



I agree with Kage (gasp!).

I'm not entirely sure this would work well, for the main reason that Eldar aren't human and no BL book to date has featured them prominently enough for me to feel comfortable with how they treat them (Farseer was OK, but Athenys and Auric aren't exactly typical Eldar either).


Fulgrim has some Eldrad perspective in it. Everyone dislikes Goto's portrayal of the eldar, but that's mainly because their actions and the story don't fit many people's image of the eldar, not because he's written their personalities badly (necessarily).

For all Kage's dislike of Rennie's Eldar (Vogue!? where do you come up with these random terms for things Kage? Do you keep a dictionary of random 'kage-terms' that only you know what they mean? Not all of us own a Kage dictionary) I found them to be just a little more distinct than other authors' interpretations.




The background and personality of the Eldar is best told in tidbits, flashbacks and legends, which is exactly what's going on.


Well that sort of defeats the purpose of writing a novel.



Now the Lay of Ulthanash? That I'd like to see. Eldar Epic Poem, millenia pre-fall. Eldar, Illiad/Odyssey style. I might be more forgiving of culture implications for that.

Besides, everyone has their own definition of debauchery. ;)

I'm not sure that there'd be much call for epic poetry amongst the majority of 40k fans (however cool reading an eldar poem in Iliad verse would be :cool:).



Hellebore

Kage2020
05-12-2007, 23:31
Although they didn't do the heresy that way, everything starts right on the cusp of Horus' betrayal.
They would have had more trouble with suspension of disbelief they had, as well as skew away from earlier background on the chronology of the Heresy.


Perhaps the first story revolves around the 'first' person or group that started the entire slide into debauchery...
Depends on what you believe or what you would want to say. The obvious problem with this is that it falls into "first causes" scenarios, which are normally horrendously simplistic and as a result rile against suspension of disbelief. Also, in discussions way back in the day, MvS was talking about a more atemporal approach to the warp, though I have not read the Liber Chaotica series (might have Liber Nurgle hanging around, though).

Thus, being able to point the finger and say, "It was Mahrke de Sahrd that is responsible for the Fall! And he was the first Dark Eldar and lived for two million years!" might be ultimately disappointing, if somewhat sounding familiar to some of the more cynical members of the 40k hobbyists. ;)


Ahhh, Kage. You have a nasty tendency to impossibilify everything, without providing your own preference.
Erm, but I didn't "impossiblify" anything. I merely pointed out that from reading most of the 40k novels that are released that I didn't think that any of the authors really had the capability, or perhaps vision (devoid of pulp imagery, of course), to do the Eldar justice.

It's hard to offer up a preference for a BL author when none currently exists. It's like choosing between the lesser of two evils, or whether I want to have my toe cut off, or a finger...

As to other authors outside of the BL stock? To be honest, I hadn't actually thought about it in that way, since I feel that many of the BL authors are in so many ways hamstrung by GW/BL/whatever. It gets into that concept of a setting versus a story, and the idea that it is harder to tell a good yarn when you're restricted by not actually changing anything.

You ask about which one I would select? I merely ask to see some of their unfettered work. And, if not, then give it to someone that has been able to engage people about his or her "non-human" races, regardless of arguments about how truly alien they are.

Okay, maybe not regardless of those arguments. <grin>


What about the eldar makes you believe that they can't be done justice.
I'm merely basing it on the representations offered by GW, which are so mired by their own limitations. I believe they can be made into an interesting and dynamic race (regardless of that whole "dying race" sound bite) and feel that none of the books have done this.


An unqualified opinion made as if it is true.
Unqualified opinions are, by default, true to the individual with those opinions. The qualification therefore in inherent to that individual such that it becomes an interpretation, and by default also a caveat. Especially when properly noted.

Otherwise would you suggest that 40k discussion forums "tow the party line" and become little more than a medium by which you can ask where to find a certain rule? Wow, what a community that would be. ;)


We know what you don't like (many, many times), but have yet to see what you do like.
In terms of the specific examples present in the BL published materials, I've actually said it a number of times. You may have glazed over it, which is perhaps not surprising since many of your posts are adversarial and seemingly based upon the premise that I'm solely posting "unqualified opinions." Fair enough.

(At the same time, how many non-vanilla approaches to the Eldar are published out there with the general malaise of 'fear' about contradicting official sources? Hmmn... That's an aside, though, and one that I'm rather glad is being at least partially addressed with Black Industries. [Go you guys!])

You, perhaps, would like a break-down of why I feel the Eldar to have been misrepresented? Perhaps the "human with pointy ears" approaches of many of the authors (even King in Farseer). Or perhaps the camp and overdone Eldar from Shadow Point, even though (for me) that novel really nailed the Aspect Warrior-Exarch transition?


Perhaps because no one can live up to your hypothetical ephemeral preferences.
Yowzers. Asbestos suit donned. It's been a while since you've posted one of these at me, hellebore. At least three months.

But "hypothetical ephemeral preferences"? I've published my interpretation of the Eldar for many years, love it or hate it. That's hardly ephemeral regardless of whether you like it or not. (This is akin, on a fan basis, of saying that GW's approach is ephemeral. It's not, but that doesn't mean it isn't superficial.) I've searched and searched for other peoples' interpretations of the Eldar but to no avail.


Please, I would like to know what you see as 'the way' to write eldar, rather than continual comments on 'the way not' to write eldar.
The cynic would point out that critics become critics because they cannot actually create themselves and, further, that it is easier to define what is wrong than define what is right. Maybe this is an axiom? Regardless, feel free to grind your axe on this self-abrasive statement (i.e. I arguably do not have the ability to create, therefore I criticise).

As to how to write them? Start with a defined idea of what their culture is and create that culture. Define it in terms of the "general rule" and only then offer up exceptions. Why are the Craftworld Eldar the way they are, how does that relate to issues of migration before/at/after the time of the Fall? How do the Craftworld Eldar differ from the pre-Fall (as process) Eldar, and how to the Dark Eldar compare to both. What is the nature of the Eldar's relationship with Slaanesh (beyond the fantasy magic concept of the Principle of Contagion) and what does this mean in relationship to the broader universe? What does it mean to be a "dying race," and what might that be applied to the Eldar without theming based upon a two-word concept?

These are all questions that can be answered, yet we're left with the Exceptionist approach (read: GW's proclivity to create situations where everything is an "exception to an exception of an exception" to allow the latitude for fan creation of "unique armies").

You accuse me of being ephemeral, which I consider strange. (Heck, I should be considered stubborn or hidebound when it comes down to my interpretation of the Eldar.) Fair enough. Whatever twiddles your biscuit. I don't believe it's true, but when would anyone consider they have flaws or short-comings...?


Everyone dislikes Goto's portrayal of the eldar, but that's mainly because their actions and the story don't fit many people's image of the eldar, not because he's written their personalities badly (necessarily).
Again, not me... kinda. I actually get quite a bit of flak for defending Goto primarily upon the idea that his representations (at least in Eldar Prophecy) seem to be obviously predicated upon the exception. With that said, I can hand on heart say that a part of the problem as I see it is the tendency towards Exceptionism, but there we go.

I really don't give a darn about, say, WFB "Bran Wa Shin" and whether it would make 40k unique or not, just whether it is a concept that could be consistently applied for interesting effect. I think it would, but that's just me. (Which is the point in question.)


For all Kage's dislike of Rennie's Eldar (Vogue!? where do you come up with these random terms for things Kage? Do you keep a dictionary of random 'kage-terms' that only you know what they mean? Not all of us own a Kage dictionary)
Actually, it's a pop-culture reference that may age certain people. Apologies for the use of "use terms," though. Some of them have slipped into common parlance from the old days, e.g. "Rule of Cool," while others have not.

"Vogue Eldar" is a reference to Madonna's song, Vogue (and specifically the music video) and the idea that Rennie's Eldar come off as little more than a determined approach to make the Eldar "alien" without putting too much thought into it. ("Strike the post... Vogue...") Perhaps somewhat ironically it points towards Rennie as being as ephemeral and image-seeking as you level at me.

Quirky, ain't it.


I found them to be just a little more distinct than other authors' interpretations.
<Strikes third pose of purported inferiority to unknown assailant, who operates the first pose of indomitable spirit>

That's one approach. ;)

I'm getting shades of Earth Final Conflict just without the cool bits. <wink>


I'm not sure that there'd be much call for epic poetry amongst the majority of 40k fans (however cool reading an eldar poem in Iliad verse would be ).
Now that is a telling comment. This reminds me of the idea that one sells to the "lowest common denominator," which would explain much...

Kage

Cosmocrat
06-12-2007, 00:00
They wouldn't have enough marines in them for people to want to read them.

Gdolkin
06-12-2007, 13:34
What is to follow is the straw that broke the proverbial Camel's back in creating Slaanesh

Eldar 1: "Hey! Get out of the back room, and leave my pipe there. The brownies are almost done."
Eldar 2: "Wow it smells amazing here. What did you put in those things?"
Eldar 3: "Yeah... I've got the munchies bad guys."
Eldar 1: "I just put the most decadent and indulgent ingredients in these babies!"
Eldar 2: "Ohhhh..... these are the most amazing brownies ever... It's like an exploding star of flavor in my mouth flying at the speed of maximum enjoyment..."
Eldar 3: "Um... guys... There's something else in the oven... it's pink and has got lots of tentacles an-"

Win. That's damn funny, and tragic too, the God of Excess was created by a hapless bunch of stoners.. very well done sir.

Bregalad
06-12-2007, 17:27
While I'd love to see a decent Eldar novel series, the last we need is another novel on Slaanesh worshipping Eldar. We have enough of that crap.

Inquisitor Engel
07-12-2007, 03:34
Fulgrim has some Eldrad perspective in it. Everyone dislikes Goto's portrayal of the eldar, but that's mainly because their actions and the story don't fit many people's image of the eldar, not because he's written their personalities badly (necessarily).

Living in an area bereft of either a GW or a Rogue Trader store that gets BL material in, I haven't had a chance to read the HH Series. I'll probably wait for some giant omnibus like I did with The Inquisition Trilogy (which was well worth the wait!)


Well that sort of defeats the purpose of writing a novel.

But my point is that one shouldn't be written. ;) I could go for a Source Book though.


I'm not sure that there'd be much call for epic poetry amongst the majority of 40k fans (however cool reading an eldar poem in Iliad verse would be :cool:).

Were I any good at prose poetry, I'd give it a go. We don't have quite enough info on what exactly happens in the Lay of Ulthanash to go do one straight away.

Hellebore
07-12-2007, 04:11
Erm, but I didn't "impossiblify" anything. I merely pointed out that from reading most of the 40k novels that are released that I didn't think that any of the authors really had the capability, or perhaps vision (devoid of pulp imagery, of course), to do the Eldar justice.


I meant that you couldn't see any chance of the eldar being done, because you have your own standards that you don't really explain, and so anyone else writing it doesn't measure up.



It's hard to offer up a preference for a BL author when none currently exists. It's like choosing between the lesser of two evils, or whether I want to have my toe cut off, or a finger...

As to other authors outside of the BL stock? To be honest, I hadn't actually thought about it in that way, since I feel that many of the BL authors are in so many ways hamstrung by GW/BL/whatever. It gets into that concept of a setting versus a story, and the idea that it is harder to tell a good yarn when you're restricted by not actually changing anything.


Well they changed quite a bit in the Heresy series, and as the Fall is even less described than the Heresy the setting would have little impact except for some unchangeable things like:

It birthed Slannesh
Eldrad survived it
Asdrubael survived it
It went on for a few thousand years
It culminated ~29th millenium


Apart from the above the authors would be free to write it any way they wanted (and as the eldar civilisation of old could pretty much do anything, there wouldn't really be a limit on technology or its application either).



You ask about which one I would select? I merely ask to see some of their unfettered work. And, if not, then give it to someone that has been able to engage people about his or her "non-human" races, regardless of arguments about how truly alien they are.

Okay, maybe not regardless of those arguments. <grin>


There are some non BL authors who I think can write alienesque psychology fairly well, but then we are all limited to our experiences so no one can truly write the alien anyway...



I'm merely basing it on the representations offered by GW, which are so mired by their own limitations. I believe they can be made into an interesting and dynamic race (regardless of that whole "dying race" sound bite) and feel that none of the books have done this.


I would argue that Rennie managed to create a dynamic race with some intricacies no other author has managed. He used a lot of conceptual metaphors.

What I'm asking is what YOU think dynamic means from your perspective. I see Rennie's interpretation and see dynamism and energy, you do not. What I want is an example of your version of eldar dynamism, so that I can actually compare it to already written interpretations and judge them.

At the moment, you've just said you don't like their interpretations, without giving a counter point to show how you think they SHOULD be done.

I can't agree with your opinion if you don't actually provide a context for it.



Unqualified opinions are, by default, true to the individual with those opinions. The qualification therefore in inherent to that individual such that it becomes an interpretation, and by default also a caveat. Especially when properly noted.


Yes but there is absolutely no point in discussing your opinions with other people if you don't provide context for them so others can agree, disagree, provide counter arguments. It's all well and good having an opinion, but unless that opinion has a structure and evidence it becomes pointless.

You end up asking people to agree with opinion because you yourself do, so it comes down to trusting the judgement of the person with the opinion rather than coming to your own conclusion about it yourself.



Otherwise would you suggest that 40k discussion forums "tow the party line" and become little more than a medium by which you can ask where to find a certain rule? Wow, what a community that would be. ;)


This dichotomy is false. It isn't a case of have your own opinion OR tow the party line, it is a case of GIVE your opinion and then qualify it with evidence, examples etc, so that others can see WHY you have it and come to their own conclusion.

Jumping in with "None of th BL authors have yet (in my opinion) captured the eldar" says nothing. In what way haven't they? The way they write eldar dialogue? Their social interactions? The terms used to describe them?

An opinion is pointless without a frame of reference and comparatives.



In terms of the specific examples present in the BL published materials, I've actually said it a number of times. You may have glazed over it, which is perhaps not surprising since many of your posts are adversarial and seemingly based upon the premise that I'm solely posting "unqualified opinions." Fair enough.


My adversarial tone is in turn prompted by the manner of your posts, many of which only consist of a few lines that really do come across as aloof and condescending, but generally say nothing except "I disagree with GW's interpretation" without giving your own.

Using unexplained terminolgy belongs in there too, unless the terms you use are actually explained few people are going to understand what you're actually talking about.

In this particular thread, you haven't provided any qualification for your opinions, merely stated them and left. In my opinion it is the height of rudeness to jump into a conversation, tell people you think this is wrong, and that is right, and then leave with no chance for others to question your opinion, because you've not given any evidence to support it.



(At the same time, how many non-vanilla approaches to the Eldar are published out there with the general malaise of 'fear' about contradicting official sources? Hmmn... That's an aside, though, and one that I'm rather glad is being at least partially addressed with Black Industries. [Go you guys!])


Here is an excellent example about using terminology without explaination. Vanilla means in common usage 'generic'. Why are you talking about non generic eldar? What do you call 'vanilla' eldar? I don't actually understand what this sentence is getting at. Are you saying no one writes about unusual (ie NON-generic) eldar because they don't want to contradict GW?

Most of GW's information describes what I would call non generic eldar - the 5 major craftworlds are all unusual, different from the norm. How then does no one write about non-generic eldar?




You, perhaps, would like a break-down of why I feel the Eldar to have been misrepresented? Perhaps the "human with pointy ears" approaches of many of the authors (even King in Farseer). Or perhaps the camp and overdone Eldar from Shadow Point, even though (for me) that novel really nailed the Aspect Warrior-Exarch transition?


What is your alternative? When is writing about eldar going to NOT be 'humans with pointy ears'? This is what I mean. It's all well and good to say I hate the humans with pointy ears angle of eldar (something I'm not a fan of) but what do you suggest in its place? We're talking Quantitative analysis here.

I interpret your humans with pointy ears statement as "eldar have all been described as you would any human, with a few 'alien' bits tacked on". Right, so what is your example of how NOT to do this?

We can only write from our experience, and the only sentient life we have encountered is humanity. Thus any aliens we write about are necessarily going to be based on that.

What I want are examples of how this can be avoided. Something like "When an eldar is enraged they shriek at the top of their lungs whilst facing east".

Without actual examples all I've got to go on is your opinion that something is wrong.




Yowzers. Asbestos suit donned. It's been a while since you've posted one of these at me, hellebore. At least three months.


Provide arguments for your opinion then. I have no interest in whether your opinion is right or wrong, whether mine is right or wrong. I DO like to see the context under which an opinion is made.

Stating ones opinion is not the same as SUPPORTING ones opinion. How am I supposed to discuss ANYONE'S opinion if they don't give me their evidence for having it?




But "hypothetical ephemeral preferences"? I've published my interpretation of the Eldar for many years, love it or hate it. That's hardly ephemeral regardless of whether you like it or not. (This is akin, on a fan basis, of saying that GW's approach is ephemeral. It's not, but that doesn't mean it isn't superficial.) I've searched and searched for other peoples' interpretations of the Eldar but to no avail.


Then cite them! I haven't read every single post you've ever made, I don't have access to your personal writings. If you've got something at Anargo, or in a pdf or whatever, link it, quote it, or whatever.

Your previous posts in this thread did no such thing, they just said "BL's authors couldn't do it" no "here's why", or "if they did it like this it would be better". Just "They can't do it (so far)."

'Ephemeral' from my relative perspective because you've not given me anything to work with. Just your opinion of someone elses opinion.



The cynic would point out that critics become critics because they cannot actually create themselves and, further, that it is easier to define what is wrong than define what is right. Maybe this is an axiom? Regardless, feel free to grind your axe on this self-abrasive statement (i.e. I arguably do not have the ability to create, therefore I criticise).


Of course you can create. EVeryone can. You've done a great job on the Anargo sector. However you are criticising FROM a position. You must know what that position is, otherwise how can you internally reference any inconsistencies with external information?

All I want is the arguments, points, counter examples etc of your opinion. That's all.




As to how to write them? Start with a defined idea of what their culture is and create that culture. Define it in terms of the "general rule" and only then offer up exceptions. Why are the Craftworld Eldar the way they are, how does that relate to issues of migration before/at/after the time of the Fall?
How do the Craftworld Eldar differ from the pre-Fall (as process) Eldar, and how to the Dark Eldar compare to both. What is the nature of the Eldar's relationship with Slaanesh (beyond the fantasy magic concept of the Principle of Contagion) and what does this mean in relationship to the broader universe? What does it mean to be a "dying race," and what might that be applied to the Eldar without theming based upon a two-word concept?


Maybe we are arguing at cross purposes? When I want your opinion as to why you think the authors so far haven't written them 'properly' I'm asking for opinions about their writing style and methods, not necessarily the background it is built on. How would Dan Abnett write differently in order to create the right 'tone and feel' in his descriptions and dialogue of the eldar. Rather than what could they write about that better expresses the eldar.




These are all questions that can be answered, yet we're left with the Exceptionist approach (read: GW's proclivity to create situations where everything is an "exception to an exception of an exception" to allow the latitude for fan creation of "unique armies").


Well as you said, hopefully BI will explore this further. RPGs tend to do this better, but then that's because that's their focus.

I suppose it's both good and bad that the eldar were created for the 40k wargame - good because they wouldn't have existed otherwise, and bad because the game has a narrow fous.




You accuse me of being ephemeral, which I consider strange. (Heck, I should be considered stubborn or hidebound when it comes down to my interpretation of the Eldar.) Fair enough. Whatever twiddles your biscuit. I don't believe it's true, but when would anyone consider they have flaws or short-comings...?


As I say above, only ephemeral from my relative perspective because most of the time when you're answering threads you don't give many arguments for your opion, you just state them. I have no doubt you've got a very structured opinion, but unless you give me its underpinnings I can't argue with it.




Again, not me... kinda. I actually get quite a bit of flak for defending Goto primarily upon the idea that his representations (at least in Eldar Prophecy) seem to be obviously predicated upon the exception. With that said, I can hand on heart say that a part of the problem as I see it is the tendency towards Exceptionism, but there we go.


My problem with Goto is the strange behaviours and features of the eldar he has described. In Warrior Coven we have a fat and rather stupid farseer. Apart from the rather strong background in support of eldar not being fat, stupidity is a little farfetched. Farseers are at the end of their witch path; the stupid ones should have been et by now.

His antagonism between the shining spears and dark reapers - the dark reapers are common in ULthwe, but his writings comlpletely wipe out the shining spears from Ulthwe. They are all aspects of khaine...

A warlock that wants to destroy the shining spears because she couldn't be Exarch?




Actually, it's a pop-culture reference that may age certain people. Apologies for the use of "use terms," though. Some of them have slipped into common parlance from the old days, e.g. "Rule of Cool," while others have not.

"Vogue Eldar" is a reference to Madonna's song, Vogue (and specifically the music video) and the idea that Rennie's Eldar come off as little more than a determined approach to make the Eldar "alien" without putting too much thought into it. ("Strike the post... Vogue...") Perhaps somewhat ironically it points towards Rennie as being as ephemeral and image-seeking as you level at me.

Quirky, ain't it.


<Strikes third pose of purported inferiority to unknown assailant, who operates the first pose of indomitable spirit>

That's one approach. ;)


Well something being 'in vogue' means in fashion right now.

I see what you mean about 'striking poses', and this is something you can give some good feedback on. If taking stances and/or certain tones does not convey an alienness to the eldar what WOULD?

Humans don't do the above, so he can't be acused of going with 'humans with pointy ears'.





Now that is a telling comment. This reminds me of the idea that one sells to the "lowest common denominator," which would explain much...

Kage

Well in a capitalist market, quality is immaterial to sales. So long as it sells, and you have an ignorant uneducated populace to sell to, those who want something a little more cerebral are either going to have to do it themselves or pay through the nose - there is no quantity in that demographic.


Hellebore

azimaith
07-12-2007, 04:19
I'd agree with the idea of it, except it would be written by CS Goto, which means its going to be full of braying. Braying warlocks, braying demons, braying craftworlds, braying aspect warriors, all braying, all the time. He haw!

Sikkukkut
07-12-2007, 11:26
It's like choosing between the lesser of two evils, or whether I want to have my toe cut off, or a finger...

How would this be an issue for a disembodied, gold-plated floating skull? (I've always wondered - how do you type?)

My personal opinion is that as it stands the Fall of the Eldar wouldn't support a series like the Heresy, at least not at the moment. The Heresy had a lot more groundwork and a lot more weight in the minds of gamers and fans: while you could argue that in "historical" terms the Fall might be a greater, more momentous thing the Heresy has cast its shadow over the 40Kverse's history for a long time. We've had the narratives, the historical references, the tantalising little hints about the events, iconic pieces like the Blanche Emperor-Horus picture, or the McVey diorama, or the King story. To repeat, the Heresy has grown over the years to a critical mass in our collective nerdly imagination. The Fall of the Eldar hasn't.

Do I think it could support a Heresy-style series if the groundwork were laid? Possibly. It still has other obstacles, though, mainly scale and empathy. Even supposing, pace the argument between Kage and Hellebore, that you can create a multiple-world-spanning cast of Eldar characters who are alien enough to create the sense of immersion in a species and culture light-years beyond humanity's, you've still then got to create the feeling of glory from the heights of that civilisation and the true horror of its downfall and what becomes of the survivors. That's a big ask, even for a big series with a lot of word length to play with, and because this is something that happens at civilisation level rather than centring around a relatively small number of powerful leaders you've got problems conveying the scale of it while keeping it an actual meaningful drama.

I wouldn't go so far as to say it'd be impossible to do, but I see a lot of obstacles in trying to narrate it directly for not a lot of upside. I think there could be some very interesting stories told about the Fall as the defining, spirit-breaking tragedy of Eldar culture, but I think there would be better ways to explore it than recounting it directly.

elvinltl
07-12-2007, 13:52
Actually the Fall of Eldar CAN be written properly for Eldar fanboys like me. All the writer need to do is write is perpsective. Insetad of writing how Eldar fall hopelessly into slannesh grip, they need to write how several Eldar form a resistance and fight for their survival forming craftworlds riding out into space before the fall occure.

It will be nice to see stories of...
1) The rise of Eldar civilisation
2) Decay of Eldar civilisation and how some Eldar start to realise their mistake
3) Actions of how this group of Eldar managed to break away from the doomed Eldar civilisation. How they do it and stuff...
4) Interaction and reflection of craftworld Eldar. Post fall activities.

Kage2020
07-12-2007, 15:47
I think that it is best to start with this quote:


Maybe we are arguing at cross purposes? When I want your opinion as to why you think the authors so far haven't written them 'properly' I'm asking for opinions about their writing style and methods, not necessarily the background it is built on.
Yes, it seems that we are and this explains the fundamental difference. I guess if you had to distill an argument down into a single statement, with all the limitations therein, then it would be that I do not believe that the authors can write a solid interpretation of the Eldar until there is a solid approach to the Eldar themselves. What we are currently presented with is a fragmented approach to the Eldar, with all the information (reasonably, given the product) themed by the wargame and what might be considered the limitations of the imagery or theme of an individual race. This subsequently leads to authors having few guidelines about, well, anything and thus creating a situation whereby what might otherwise be interesting concepts (cf. Rennie's "non-linguistic communication") are mangled, or at least "mis-handled."

Also, for clarity and once again, I believe that novels set in the Fall would be interesting and possible (especially in the manner that I mentioned, above), but at the present there is no real facility for this because of the above. While many authors have come up with some interesting ideas, without any real context for them, they're merely that: cool ideas, but sometimes mis-handled (a subjective opinion, of course).

Then, since it is requested, for my interpretation/approach to the Eldar from the Anargo Sector Project, click here (http://forum.anargo-sector.net/viewtopic.php?t=34). (Not as pretty as it used to be, but since the original was on a Wiki that was hacked, it's better than advertisements for materials of a dubious nature. Also, note that it is purely an overview, with more detailed concepts waiting on time for the "Eldar Sourcebook.")

(Also, perhaps some of the confusion arises that I discussed many of these theories with an individual that had the same username as you , and just presumed that it was the same person. My bad.)


I see Rennie's interpretation and see dynamism and energy, you do not.
[i]Shadow Point. The only things that I can remember about this novel in terms of the Eldar are:

Non-linguistic communication.
Self-motivated Avatar.
Aspect Warrior to Exarch transition.
Much communication by telepathy.
Melancholic Eldar.
Some of these are interesting ideas, some less so (for me, that is).

Non-Linguistic Communication
I consider this to be a good concept poorly handled. That the Eldar might use non-verbal, perhaps even subconscious, forms of communication is a great idea. Others have proposed this in different ways, either through a psychic 'aura' (consistent with the background material, and distinct from telepathy [see below]), or slightly more subtle through interplays of assumed responsibility, age, etc.

As written, though, I feel that Rennie poorly handled what is otherwise an interesting idea. I mention the "Vogue Eldar" (once again in reference to the music video by Madonna, i.e. "Vogue") since that was the impression that the text gave me -- Eldar striking some form of strange pose. For another approach, one has to wonder whether Rennie is a sci-fi fan and had recently watched Earth Final Conflict, since this is the other image that too-readily sprang to mind when reading through his text. (Examples of the Madonna video, and more particularly the Taelons, can be found on YouTube if you have the bandwidth.)

How could it be better written? Well, take a step back from defining "poses," which seemed more the literary equivalent of the author slapping the reader in the face and saying, "Pay attention! I'm doing something cool."

I guess the above also buys into how Rennie represents the Eldar in general, since I came away from the novel feeling that he considered them to be, in essence, emotionally immature. It seems obvious that he was trying to bring across the oft-stated "extremes of Eldar emotion," but it was very much over-bearing (for me). More on this below.

Self-motivated Avatar
... Or the Avatar that decided that it was going to do something without being called forth by the Eldar and the sacrifice of the Young King.

This was something that caused some consternation, but I rather liked it both in terms of background implications and how it was written. The sense that the "god" was greater than merely a daemon that was called forth from the hidden heart of the Craftworld. Unfortunately I remember very few specifics and would have to read it again, but those books are in England and I am, well, not. (While I have re-purchased some BL novels, that is not going to be one of them, I'm afraid.)

Aspect Warrior to Exarch Transition
For me, this was perfect. Just perfect. Both in terms of how it was presented and the background implications. The shame is that the implications are never carried forward in other material.

Telepathic Communication
In terms of the background, this is for me erroneous. It implies that all Eldar are telepathic, or horrendously conveniently for the story all happened to have been Seers in the past (see comments on Path, below). Either that or it was moderated as a form of 'machine telepathy' (which might be more reasonable and has other interesting background implications).

As written, though? I remember little being overtly bad or good, other than the glitch with the background, and this is the most significant factor in a consideration of this aspect of the novel.

Melancholic Eldar
While intimately tied to the "theme" of the Eldar as written - that is, the whole "dying race" thing - there are continuing conceptual problems with how Eldar are written in general.

So, what is the problem with how the Eldar are "written in general?" As mentioned above, what we have is the original WD 127 (with its obvious bias to the wargame), and then compounded exceptions, which is to say that we are never provided information on the "general society" that is more than likely the root of these exceptions. Without this, any interpretation is mired in that ultimately useless answer of, "Well, it depends on <insert relevant reponse: what chapter you're talking about, which world, what type of world, what race, what historical period, etc. etc.> "

As above, therefore, this is the bare minimum starting point for any written work that involves the Eldar. It is also the reason that I feel that previous representations of the Eldar have failed in one manner or other. If this were ever to be produced, one would hope that GW would show a tiny bit of imagination with that society, but that's where preference shades into the response.

In terms of themes that might have an impact upon the Eldar beyond more detailed information on their society, and which have never really played into the published material even though I feel that it should?

Longevity
This is something that is common throughout the greater majority of fantasy literature, and is one of the reasons that Elven/Eldar representations are sometimes labelled with "humans with pointy ears" (or what you might amusingly think of as "Elves/Eldar are people too..." ;)). Despite their longevity, they are presented as being little different to humans. This does little but reinforce their "human-ness." That is not to say that Eldar should be unable to react to a given event or other stimuli in a necessarily slow fashion, but this when combined with the tendency to break down into what amounts to little more than temper tantrums or "hissy fits" at the drop of the hat...?

Thus their longevity should have an impact upon how the Eldar act, and more broadly how their society operates. This leads to another conceptual glitch. While the Eldar in terms of their "psychology" (ability to recover after the Fall), the Eldar are seemingly entirely static in the "melancholic Eldar" such as that represented by Rennie in Shadow Point. Yet at the same time their culture is dynamic enough that we have the changes represented by the "big craftworlds" (Saim-Han, Ulthwe, etc.) and the aforementioned Eldar being prone to those "hissy fits."

This then leads to...

The Path
Despite statements to the contrary, the Path seems as represented to be very little more than a series of "careers," with various degrees of hand-waving as to the significance being attributed to it. Despite this, we still have the "hissy fit" Eldar, at least with Rennie. (Another one of the big reasons that I find his interpretation to be wanting.)


Well as you said, hopefully BI will explore this further. RPGs tend to do this better, but then that's because that's their focus.
Originally I was optimistic, but now less so given the degree of "theming" that BI seem to be doing. As is always being stated by those that have access to the product, "OOh, just wait until you see it." :eyebrows:

An "Eldar Sourcebook," though? That seems to be more than a few years away, and in the interim we're still going to get the compounding, exceptional approach to Eldar material. What results from that at the end? Who knows.


I suppose it's both good and bad that the eldar were created for the 40k wargame - good because they wouldn't have existed otherwise, and bad because the game has a narrow fous.
Aye, indeed. Although to be fair, many times the impression is given that they would still exist under the name "High Elves."


Apart from the rather strong background in support of eldar not being fat, stupidity is a little farfetched.
Yes, elves are always "lithe." With that said, though, the 'stupidity' thing is a common angle for the novelists. Consider Storm of Iron and how we're expected to believe that eighteenth to nineteenth century military science is the height of the same in the Imperium. This leads the avenue for the author making his characters sound "really cool" (clever, ingenious or whatever) when they use tactics that are out of the twentieth century.


Farseers are at the end of their witch path; the stupid ones should have been et by now.
Completely incidentally, and probably more a matter of semantics, but I would consider Farseers to not be at the 'end' of their Path, since that implies being a Farseer is the ultimate end of the Path of the Seer. Rather, they are a product of the Path, but not directly on the Path.


Humans don't do the above [striking poses], so he can't be acused of going with 'humans with pointy ears'.
In certain ethnographic groups, yes they do. Of course, there's nothing wrong with taking a human example and tweaking it to provide substance for the "alien." After all, from the Western perspective numerous cultures are completely alien to them. Heck, even groups/sodalities within their own society. Morris dancers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morris_dance) being a prime example. ;)


Well in a capitalist market, quality is immaterial to sales. So long as it sells, and you have an ignorant uneducated populace to sell to, those who want something a little more cerebral are either going to have to do it themselves or pay through the nose - there is no quantity in that demographic.
Oh, I know that, but it doesn't mean that we shouldn't demand more from the authors. If we never ask, if they are never aware of the greater expectations, then nothing will ever happen.

Well, I don't expect that much to happen anyway, but there we go.


To repeat, the Heresy has grown over the years to a critical mass in our collective nerdly imagination. The Fall of the Eldar hasn't.
Which, in my mind, gets back to the requirement to actually write the material to provide a framework for the authors to build upon, rather than the "Rule of Cool/Style over Substance" approach that does seem to dominate.

The first in a series of 'baby steps' to a positive end...


It will be nice to see stories of...
1) The rise of Eldar civilisation
2) Decay of Eldar civilisation and how some Eldar start to realise their mistake
3) Actions of how this group of Eldar managed to break away from the doomed Eldar civilisation. How they do it and stuff...
4) Interaction and reflection of craftworld Eldar. Post fall activities.
Ha, you could even combine them into a First and Last Men-style.

Kage

Hellebore
08-12-2007, 03:13
I think that it is best to start with this quote:


Yes, it seems that we are and this explains the fundamental difference. I guess if you had to distill an argument down into a single statement, with all the limitations therein, then it would be that I do not believe that the authors can write a solid interpretation of the Eldar until there is a solid approach to the Eldar themselves. What we are currently presented with is a fragmented approach to the Eldar, with all the information (reasonably, given the product) themed by the wargame and what might be considered the limitations of the imagery or theme of an individual race. This subsequently leads to authors having few guidelines about, well, anything and thus creating a situation whereby what might otherwise be interesting concepts (cf. Rennie's "non-linguistic communication") are mangled, or at least "mis-handled."


Well that makes sense. It is hard to extrapolate from something if you don't have a well developed basis to work from.



Also, for clarity and once again, I believe that novels set in the Fall would be interesting and possible (especially in the manner that I mentioned, above), but at the present there is no real facility for this because of the above. While many authors have come up with some interesting ideas, without any real context for them, they're merely that: cool ideas, but sometimes mis-handled (a subjective opinion, of course).


They seem to have put quite a bit of time into the Horus Heresy (understandable given its importance) so I don't see it as necessarily impossible for them to develop the eldar in a similar manner (which would still not be quite 'enough' but better than ignoring them completely).



Then, since it is requested, for my interpretation/approach to the Eldar from the Anargo Sector Project, click here (http://forum.anargo-sector.net/viewtopic.php?t=34). (Not as pretty as it used to be, but since the original was on a Wiki that was hacked, it's better than advertisements for materials of a dubious nature. Also, note that it is purely an overview, with more detailed concepts waiting on time for the "Eldar Sourcebook.")


Cheers, I will read through it.




(Also, perhaps some of the confusion arises that I discussed many of these theories with an individual that had the same username as you , and just presumed that it was the same person. My bad.)


It could have been me - I was on Portent and you asked me come to Anargo and discuss things. That was quite a few years ago though, and I've probably forgotten most of it. I was also turned off posting at Anargo when Xenology came out and the forum turned into a massive bookburning because it disagreed with fundamental biological principles the members had developed (a classic result of that 'malaise' you mentioned regarding going against official canon).

I got put off posting there because it seemed to me that there was an unnatural bias against anything with a GW logo on it, and if it didn't agree with the Anargo consensus (which it most often didn't) then it was thrown out automatically. It gets a little frustrating trying to discuss something with others when they don't actually care what you're trying to talk about.

I made a suggestion for an alien race in the forums a while ago, using mandibular manipulation rather than manual. I have no idea how that went on.



Non-Linguistic Communication
I consider this to be a good concept poorly handled. That the Eldar might use non-verbal, perhaps even subconscious, forms of communication is a great idea. Others have proposed this in different ways, either through a psychic 'aura' (consistent with the background material, and distinct from telepathy [see below]), or slightly more subtle through interplays of assumed responsibility, age, etc.


I liked this theme too. I'm not sure what you see as being mishandled. Too many stances? Everyone acting like Kirk by jerking into different poses every 5 seconds?



As [i]written, though, I feel that Rennie poorly handled what is otherwise an interesting idea. I mention the "Vogue Eldar" (once again in reference to the music video by Madonna, i.e. "Vogue") since that was the impression that the text gave me -- Eldar striking some form of strange pose. For another approach, one has to wonder whether Rennie is a sci-fi fan and had recently watched Earth Final Conflict, since this is the other image that too-readily sprang to mind when reading through his text. (Examples of the Madonna video, and more particularly the Taelons, can be found on YouTube if you have the bandwidth.)


I never really got that impression. I suppose because I always had 'subtle' at the forefront of my thinking when reading about the eldar. When he would write about the '3rd stance of the blahblah' I had images of slight muscle tensing, subtle placement of the limbs.

I can understand how it could come across as sharp pronounced movements though (like Rudy Coby's fists on hips stance).



How could it be better written? Well, take a step back from defining "poses," which seemed more the literary equivalent of the author slapping the reader in the face and saying, "Pay attention! I'm doing something cool."


The question then becomes - how do you describe a body language without describing it? I get the feeling Rennie wanted to create a sort of ritualised tradition based communication. Each stance/pose being part of the culture, just as a japanese tea ceremony has very specific ritualised movements in a clear order.



I guess the above also buys into how Rennie represents the Eldar in general, since I came away from the novel feeling that he considered them to be, in essence, emotionally immature. It seems obvious that he was trying to bring across the oft-stated "extremes of Eldar emotion," but it was very much over-bearing (for me). More on this below.


I did find the female ship captain a tad over emotional, although her craftworld being destroyed obviously didn't help.



Self-motivated Avatar
... Or the Avatar that decided that it was going to do something without being called forth by the Eldar and the sacrifice of the Young King.

This was something that caused some consternation, but I rather liked it both in terms of background implications and how it was written. The sense that the "god" was greater than merely a daemon that was called forth from the hidden heart of the Craftworld. Unfortunately I remember very few specifics and would have to read it again, but those books are in England and I am, well, not. (While I have re-purchased some BL novels, that is not going to be one of them, I'm afraid.)


I really did like this aspect. It developed Khaine as more than a weapon used by the Eldar when needed. The fact that some of the story was written from its perspective was also quite good. It could feel that it was a piece of a larger whole, and that there were other pieces spread throughout the galaxy. It couldn't quite remember how it had gotten that way, but the book really developed an Avatar as an individual rather than just a big monster for smashing.



Aspect Warrior to Exarch Transition
For me, this was perfect. Just perfect. Both in terms of how it was presented and the background implications. The shame is that the
implications are never carried forward in other material.


I never had any real complaints about that part of the novel.



Telepathic Communication
In terms of the background, this is for me erroneous. It implies that all Eldar are telepathic, or horrendously conveniently for the story all happened to have been Seers in the past (see comments on Path, below). Either that or it was moderated as a form of 'machine telepathy' (which might be more reasonable and has other interesting background implications).


I don't really remember that part in the story, but I do remember a feeling that the eldar communicated in an empathic manner rather than literally putting words into people's minds. By machine telepathy you mean their technology acted like a phone exchange? They transfered one eldar's thoughts into the machine and out into someone else's mind? That is how I've thought the infinity circuit works.



Melancholic Eldar
While intimately tied to the "theme" of the Eldar as written - that is, the whole "dying race" thing - there are continuing conceptual problems with how Eldar are written in general.


I suppose with such a long lifespan and a relatively short time since the fall, having your race almost entirely wiped out because of its arrogant excess would put a little melancholy in anyone's day.

I agree that it can be overdone, but with all the crap happening around you, feeling a little depressed is pretty natural. One of the reasons I enjoyed the remake of Battlestar Galactica over the original - the people were actually depressed, and in some cases suicidal. Compare that to the pilot episode of the original and 15 minutes in they're all on a casino planet gambling and having fun...:eyebrows:



So, what is the problem with how the Eldar are "written in general?" As mentioned above, what we have is the original WD 127 (with its obvious bias to the wargame), and then compounded exceptions, which is to say that we are never provided information on the "general society" that is more than likely the root of these exceptions. Without this, any interpretation is mired in that ultimately useless answer of, "Well, it depends on <insert relevant reponse: what chapter you're talking about, which world, what type of world, what race, what historical period, etc. etc.> "


Unfortunately I think you've picked the wrong race from the wrong setting to fixate upon then, because this is the mantra of the wargame (which dictates to the rest). On one hand I like it, and on the other I don't. I like it because they haven't written themselves into a corner (as happens a lot with these sorts of things) but then, they haven't written themselves into a corner because they haven't written anything.

Even Dark Heresy had to follow this by creating a sector to explore. They couldn't describe the entire Imperium because it would shrink the universe into a small number of definables, so the invented a sector. Thus we can have all the detail we want whilst still retaining the "Well, it depends on <insert relevant reponse: what chapter you're talking about, which world, what type of world, what race, what historical period, etc. etc.> "

They may end up doing the same thing for alien sourcebooks (take a single craftworld - probably not any of the famous ones - and describe it in detail). Thus they retain the 'it depends' clause without avoiding giving any information - they just say 'well it's true for THAT craftworld....



Longevity
This is something that is common throughout the greater majority of fantasy literature, and is one of the reasons that Elven/Eldar representations are sometimes labelled with "humans with pointy ears" (or what you might amusingly think of as "Elves/Eldar are people too..." ;)). Despite their longevity, they are presented as being little different to humans. This does little but reinforce their "human-ness." That is not to say that Eldar should be unable to react to a given event or other stimuli in a necessarily slow fashion, but this when combined with the tendency to break down into what amounts to little more than temper tantrums or "hissy fits" at the drop of the hat...?


Well one could argue that emotional excess would be a novel trait for an alien race. Obviously you don't like the concept that when an eldar gets angry they get angry to the point of incoherence.

I don't disagree necesarily, but you then end up at a point where all the extreme traits attributed to the eldar are removed, and you do end up with humans with pointy ears. Extreme emotion, hyper melancholia, etc are all things that some have added to the eldar to differentiate them FROM humans.

What could you replace these with to maintain that difference?



Thus their longevity should have an impact upon how the Eldar act, and more broadly how their society operates. This leads to another conceptual glitch. While the Eldar in terms of their "psychology" (ability to recover after the Fall), the Eldar are seemingly entirely static in the "melancholic Eldar" such as that represented by Rennie in Shadow Point. Yet at the same time their culture is dynamic enough that we have the changes represented by the "big craftworlds" (Saim-Han, Ulthwe, etc.) and the aforementioned Eldar being prone to those "hissy fits."

This then leads to...


That would be a case of It depends on. They change the 5 large craftworlds, make them unique, so that there is some variety. So they are static, depending on the craftworld;).

I think from a realist perspective, the eldar are in a jam. The galaxy is choc full of alien races and empires. They just don't have the resources to start repopulating planets. At least with a craftworld you can move it or hide it, but a planet is always in the same spot.

There is a danger that were they all to start a recolonisation programme, it would make them very vulnerable and they could all get wiped out completely.

On the other hand, floating around in craftworlds means they stagnate.



The Path
Despite statements to the contrary, the Path seems as represented to be very little more than a series of "careers," with various degrees of hand-waving as to the significance being attributed to it. Despite this, we still have the "hissy fit" Eldar, at least with Rennie. (Another one of the big reasons that I find his interpretation to be wanting.)


To be fair to Rennie, only a very few of his eldar had anger management problems and those were from a destroyed craftworld. The others seemed fairly calm.

I always envisioned a monk aesthetic for the paths - a lifetime of training and practicing within that field. That's how I interpreted it from the descriptions given.

The changing of a path would be an important event, as it symbolises the starting of a new life.



Originally I was optimistic, but now less so given the degree of "theming" that BI seem to be doing. As is always being stated by those that have access to the product, "OOh, just wait until you see it."


Well it is heavily themed, because of the aforementioned reasons. It's based only around a single sector, there is no generic 40k system. The mechanics might be universal, but the setting is not.

So if you were looking for a guide to the administratum, the closest you will get is a guide to the administratum of the Calixis Sector.

You prefer GURPS to other systems for rules, so obviously they won't be of any use (although I prefer straight percentile systems myself).

So unless you are after some descriptions of some aspects of a very specific part of the Imperium you won't be interested. I found the system to be fun, and a nice expansion on the WFRP rules it was based on. They didn't give us any background information for the playtest, just the mechanics, and as you aren't interested in those I can't really tell you anything els.



An "Eldar Sourcebook," though? That seems to be more than a few years away, and in the interim we're still going to get the compounding, exceptional approach to Eldar material. What results from that at the end? Who knows.


It would most likely be 'Craftworld Calixis Sector' and be one description of one group of eldar.



In certain ethnographic groups, yes they do. Of course, there's nothing wrong with taking a human example and tweaking it to provide substance for the "alien." After all, from the Western perspective numerous cultures are completely alien to them. Heck, even groups/sodalities within their own society. Morris dancers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morris_dance) being a prime example. ;)


So where does the human with pointy ears end?

Hellebore

SV_Harlequin
08-12-2007, 09:04
The problem with writing Eldar seems to be they either end up being High Elves/Wood Elves with Guns in space or some sort of weird cross of all the similar alien species from other Sci-fi things that have come before; Taelons, Romulans/Vulcans etc
I suppose this is due to the complete lack of anything concrete established about them before. And it is basically left to each person to interpret what little info there is and them using already established races/aliens.

I do agree that there are no current BL/GW authors that can produce a convincing Eldar novel. And it would seem better to bring in an outside author to write for them but then it becomes trying to find someone who can write something suitibly alien bu still retain that 40k feel.
What seems to be needed is someone like Alastair Reynolds, Iain M Banks but crossed with someone like Michael Moorcock.


As an avid hater of Goto's work there is something after rereading Warrior Coven I noticed that I ignored the first time I read it due to the butchering of the fluff is that his discriptions of things like Eldar Architechture, the composition of Ulthwe did atleast add something to showing what Eldar might be like.


What might be the best way of writing an Eldar series or just one proper Eldar book would rather than writing/focusing on the Fall/Prefall would be to write about at the time immediately after The Fall. As a time of uncertiny and upheavel for race it would allow them to actually establish something solid for the Eldar and writing something akin to the plot of Battlestar Galactica in the idea of running away from something instead of to something you could focus on telling individual stories of single Eldar escaping rather than having to tyr and write abotu the race as a whole.
This way you could gradually introduce the backstory as tales told maybe in forms akin to flashbacks explaining how the Eldar but still have a straightforward plot of for example: an Eldar Artist trying to flee his homeworld as its destroyed, or as one of the Eldar who wiht others feared The Fall and left with the others.
Or there's the very simple idea of Interogation: Eldar Ranger captured by say Dark Angels or Inquistion and Tortured to reveal back story of Eldar race.

elvinltl
08-12-2007, 14:19
Ok let's forward this thread to JK Rowling... There are really detailed ideas and could imspire any novelist/writers.

Kage2020
08-12-2007, 15:59
Well that makes sense. It is hard to extrapolate from something if you don't have a well developed basis to work from.
Indeed. At the moment we are forced to extrapolate from fragmentary information, which given the trend in GW writing is reasonable (i.e. they want fragmentary sources since it is the latitude that allows such... significant variation in interpretation).


Cheers, I will read through it.
It hasn't really changed in a while, I'm afraid. The original premise was to use that as a stepping point for a full-fledged RPG-scaled sourcebook, but with significantly developed background sections (e.g. such as the aforementioned redevelopment of Eldar physiology away from the travesty of [i]Xenology).


It could have been me - I was on Portent and you asked me come to Anargo and discuss things.
That might have been at the time of the original Eldar physiology discussions. You never know, your ideas of "wraithbone hair" (I believe that was you) might have inspired Spurrier. I hate you. ;)


I was also turned off posting at Anargo when Xenology came out and the forum turned into a massive bookburning...
To be fair, members enthusiastically stated their opinions because the information in Xenology was superficial, contained some fundamental errors, and, yes, didn't agree with what they had produced. Compared to, say, the Goto-bashing that you see quite commonly on this forum, it was positively optimistic in comparison.


I got put off posting there because it seemed to me that there was an unnatural bias against anything with a GW logo on it...
It's okay, one of the reasons that I got put off posting on the Black Industries forum - and then for the most part the BL Publishing forum for the 40k RPG - is what struck me as the all-but-(sometimes)-sycophantic enthusiasm for all things with the GW logo. That any project, pro- or con-GW would attract disenchanted (or enchanted) members of the same ilk is not surprising. Perhaps more so when, at the time, the tendency to try and introduce more information was met by the idea of "That's not GW canon!"

As to consensus? A group project is automatically going to have a consensus that must be negotiated with. Thus ideas are proposed, accepted, redefined or rejected. I would pretty much imagine that this is how it works in many projects, fan-based or otherwise.

But anyway, I digress and it really is whatever twiddles your biscuit.


I liked this theme too. I'm not sure what you see as being mishandled. Too many stances? Everyone acting like Kirk by jerking into different poses every 5 seconds?
LOL. I had forgotten the Kirk potential, but caricatures of Shatner's acting styles probably excluded it from my mind as a viable analogy. Thus the Taelon one. But, yes, it was not only the "too many stances" concept, but also the way that they were handled. Other than the idea that the author had seen Earth Final Conflict, it was if they had heard a linguistic interaction being defined as a "dance of words" and went with it.

Perhaps your own arguments of context come back here. The "third post of whatever" had no context, and while you could assume subtlety if you were to give the author the benefit of the doubt, this was not a natural product of the way that the concept was broached to the readers. Coupled with what I personally saw as the other problems, and the general idea that in the BL novels the burden is continually on the reader to give the author the benefit of the doubt, I am less inclined to be forgiving. But note that it is forgiving of the author and the way they write, rather than the inherent concept of non-verbal forms of communication.


I never really got that impression. I suppose because I always had 'subtle' at the forefront of my thinking when reading about the eldar. When he would write about the '3rd stance of the blahblah' I had images of slight muscle tensing, subtle placement of the limbs.
You can justify it that way, and this is what many of the fans do in their "fan contributions." That is not, however, how Rennie wrote it. Depending on how one reads it, you could interpret it as Eldar taking "dancing language" lessons, or what-no, in their early childhood socialisation.

On the other hand, your image of "slight muscle tensing," etc., would be the type of non-linguistic communication that would be useful, especially if coupled with the typical theme of the Eldar (read: psychogenics/psychic powers). Yet by formalising them into the "third pose of whatever" it automatically moved it towards that whole Taelon thing. If you get the opportunity I suggest you watch some of the episodes -- it is almost precisely how the Rennie's Eldar came over.

Thus, ham-fisted handling of an otherwise reasonable concept.


I get the feeling Rennie wanted to create a sort of ritualised tradition based communication. Each stance/pose being part of the culture, just as a japanese tea ceremony has very specific ritualised movements in a clear order.
To be fair, it is incredibly obvious why Rennie was attempting to do it, but also without giving him the benefit of the doubt, why in my mind he completely failed. The BL novels are, I'm afraid, not the most complex of entities. (Again, something that I do not truly believe is necessarily the fault of the authors, whom all things considered I think do a reasonable job.)


I really did like this aspect. It developed Khaine as more than a weapon used by the Eldar when needed.
You would seem to be in the minority, though. That darned 40k hobbyist consensus. <poking good humoured fun>


...but the book really developed an Avatar as an individual rather than just a big monster for smashing.
It was a long while back, but much of BL writing reminds me of a time in an RPG session where, when presented with a detailed narrative of what their character was seeing, the player responded with: "Oh, just shut up and tell me how many dice to roll." This was manifested a couple of years back on the ASP when someone expressed their concern about having to go through the world generation process since, "I just need a place to blow stuff up on."

Different values, different objectives. :D (And that was not in any way meant to suggest that all wargamers are the same, nor that having that particular approach is inherently bad...)


By machine telepathy you mean their technology acted like a phone exchange? They transfered one eldar's thoughts into the machine and out into someone else's mind? That is how I've thought the infinity circuit works.
It really depends on how you wish to view Eldar technology. The overriding implications of most arguments is that everything is done by "psychic engineering" in absence of physical science, whereas I personally take the stance that they are 1 part technology, 1 part psychogenic science. That's just me, damn my heretical soul.

Oh yes, and how the Eldar view the technology is beside the point when wondering how it might function... <grin>


I suppose with such a long lifespan and a relatively short time since the fall, having your race almost entirely wiped out because of its arrogant excess would put a little melancholy in anyone's day.
Yet this is exactly the tension that I mean between the ability of a society to substantially alter the process of society and government over a "relatively short time since the fall," yet be incapable off psychological change? Hmmn...

While one cannot impose a human chronology upon the Eldar - they should (even if they don't) have a different perception of it - but one can merely point out how many generations have passed since the Fall. Even if one gives this a rather large period, say 500 years, then it is still going to be 20 generations between the 'now' and the 'then.' Consider what has happened in 20 human generations, or from about 1507 to 2007. (Admittedly, if you selected the mesolithic period then, from our current understanding, the answer would be "not a great deal." ;))


I agree that it can be overdone, but with all the crap happening around you, feeling a little depressed is pretty natural.
Yes, but for twenty generations (using the above figures)?


One of the reasons I enjoyed the remake of Battlestar Galactica over the original - the people were actually depressed, and in some cases suicidal.
Aye, but look at the comparative time frame. If 500 years down the line (though if one were to be semi-realistic with the generational period), or perhaps 300 years down the line, one might imagine that culturally ingrained depression or tendencies toward suicide might be somewhat ameliorated? Surely?

Immediately post-Fall? Sure. Hell, maybe even unto the first handful of generations. But all of them? (The common argument at this point is that Eldar are going to feel depression and guilt much more acutely than humans because, well, Eldar experience emotions much more acutely. It is an argument, but not the strongest, at least in my mind.)


Unfortunately I think you've picked the wrong race from the wrong setting to fixate upon then, because this is the mantra of the wargame (which dictates to the rest).
I disagree, but primarily because it is answerable by producing a substantive background for the Eldar. A context, if you will. Just because that is not going to receive official response, or may be particularly original if it ever does, in no way means that it is the wrong race to "fixate" on.

In all fairness, the above comment - albeit without deliberate intent - echo the idea that, "If you don't like it, then don't bother with the 40k universe." Almost as if everything is sacrosanct, and we - the fans, or at least me - must cherish each crumb that drops from the table of the creators.

This seems to ultimately come down to approach, again. In this regard, I'm probably overly biased by a comment from GDW's Traveller publication, Fire, Fusion & Steel. While they were obviously selling their own product, they argued that while other game systems tended to provide you with a store full of equipment (read: equipment lists, etc.), they wanted to provide you with the factory (read: the means to produce the equipment yourself). Thus, for me, a universe is there to be built and shaped, thus becoming the individual fans without being disenfranchised by comments that come down to it being "not-40k."


Even Dark Heresy had to follow this by creating a sector to explore. They couldn't describe the entire Imperium because it would shrink the universe into a small number of definables, so the invented a sector.
This, for me, is a weakness in the product line and, as above, is a means of pulling you into a product line. It is yet another "exception to an exception of an exception," with arguments of the future being, "Sure, that's the way it happens in Calixis, but that's just the Calixis sector."

Again, though, it comes to the previous comment -- I'm one of those people that want the factory, not another theme store. It is for this very reason that I tend towards so-called simulationist games, since I believe the theme can be introduced once you have the structure, rather than the theme defining the structure.

It's just a fundamental different approach, and neither is inherently superior to the other. From a materialistic stance, theming the Dark Heresy game is a good move for GW or for those fans that feel explanation denies flexibility. For me, though? I cannot help but see typical echoes with the opensource movement. (In this analogy, GW would be the closed source, proprietary company that wants to lock people into their product, while the "factory" movement is opensource, which obviously does not translate to non-commercial.)

It's strange, though, but I think now that it is only the creative endeavours (slow as they might be) of the ASP that keep me bound to the 40k universe. Well, that and 40kFantasy, which is just too much fun to play around with. ;)


Well one could argue that emotional excess would be a novel trait for an alien race. Obviously you don't like the concept that when an eldar gets angry they get angry to the point of incoherence.
That would be one argument, but also one that is not strictly true. The suggestion seems to be that I somehow ignore the Eldar emotional reality, whereas I prefer to see it that I don't over-emphasise it to the point of superficiality. Consider, for example, that I consider the "emotional reality" of the Eldar to be the ultimate cause of the Fall and, thus, the thing that must ultimately be controlled. So, yes, having "hissy fits" at the drop of the hate is something that I wouldn't agree with.

That is not, however, to say that Eldar - even with the Path in place - unemotional. Far from it, since that goes down the "standard" Vulcan approach. I just find the idea that the Eldar walks a knife-edge blade of emotional instability to be somewhat... disappointing.


What could you replace these with to maintain that difference?
I don't replace them at all, to be fair. I allow for extreme emotions. I allow for melancholy. I just place it within a broader structure that is predicated upon a mechanism of control.


I think from a realist perspective, the eldar are in a jam.
This is the most common argument to be taken with regards to Eldar recolonisation, though to be fair that is not necessarily where I would take the "Eldar," even if some groups (of Eldar) might go down that route.

Consider that the Imperium - heck! Slaanesh - purportedly knows where many of the craftworlds are and that, further, many of them seem incapable of moving (if you are to believe the common arguments). It makes no-never-mind if they are on a planet or a craftworld.


I always envisioned a monk aesthetic for the paths - a lifetime of training and practicing within that field. That's how I interpreted it from the descriptions given.
Well, not a lifetime, but I agree with the sentiment and the importance, or more aptly significance, of changing to a new Path. That's just me, though. To most others, and this includes GW, it is often represented as little more than a job. At least, that is the impression that I get from reading their materials.


Well it is heavily themed, because of the aforementioned reasons. It's based only around a single sector, there is no generic 40k system. The mechanics might be universal, but the setting is not.
As with Rennie, it is obvious why the choice is made, but that doesn't mean that one has to like it. Indeed, I consider it a "foul ball." <grin>


So where does the human with pointy ears end?
At the point where you do not require the forgiveness of the intelligent, informed reader to make it palatable? No, that's too strong.

Regardless, all it requires is that substantive background. As I said above, 'baby steps.'


As an avid hater of Goto's work there is something after rereading Warrior Coven I noticed that I ignored the first time I read it due to the butchering of the fluff is that his discriptions of things like Eldar Architechture, the composition of Ulthwe did atleast add something to showing what Eldar might be like.
And with the sweets, the sorrow...

(No idea if that has a real source, but I'm somewhat embarassed to admit that I get it from the film Practical Magic. My wife made me watch it. Honest!)


Ok let's forward this thread to JK Rowling... There are really detailed ideas and could imspire any novelist/writers.
Oh god, no... <breaks down in sobs of terror and fear>

Kage

The_Outsider
08-12-2007, 18:09
Has anyone thought that a fall of the eldar series would actually expand DE's fluff from 1 page to (potentially) nearly an entire novel?

There could easily be a bit about where vect buggers off and sets up the foundations for the commoragh (not to mention he is probably the oldest eldar alive).

Kage2020
08-12-2007, 23:10
Yep. It is one of those questions that should be answered if any such series were to be written. After all, just 'how' it all got started, and just what all the doo-hickeys with the Dark Eldar, are amongst some of the most frequently asked questions.

Kage

00mrfish00
09-12-2007, 13:55
Kage, Hellibore, stop writing such bloody long posts. Anyhow, 2 things confuse me. In fulgrim Slaanesh is described as being as old as the universe, this is blatantly wrong. Also in the eldar army book it says that the birth of slaanesh calmed the warp storms, allowing the great human crusade to happen. Technically this means the fall would only have happened a few hundred years before the imperium was formed which again doesn't seem to make sense. Can anyone explain this to me?

The_Outsider
09-12-2007, 18:47
Kage, Hellibore, stop writing such bloody long posts. Anyhow, 2 things confuse me. In fulgrim Slaanesh is described as being as old as the universe, this is blatantly wrong. Also in the eldar army book it says that the birth of slaanesh calmed the warp storms, allowing the great human crusade to happen. Technically this means the fall would only have happened a few hundred years before the imperium was formed which again doesn't seem to make sense. Can anyone explain this to me?

No its essentially correct.

The fall (and subsequent calming of warp storms) is what gave the Emperor the opportunity to expand and start the great crusade.

Though (IIRC) there isn't a definitive timescale given for the peroid inbetween slaanesh "exploding" into being and the Emeperor actually starting the great crusade.

Though assuming there isn't much of a time difference Eldrad is/was only as old as the Imperium (yes yes I know the Imperium is actually yougner than the great crusade but it will do for this example) and that Vect is about 10200+ years old.

Kage2020
10-12-2007, 01:17
Kage, Hellibore, stop writing such bloody long posts.
No.

:D ;)

Kage

Rockerfella
10-12-2007, 16:34
Personally, I think its a great idea. Again, if its done to my tastes. Haha!

I think Hellbore that it could tie nicely into the thread I posted about a possible War In Heaven series of books. For me, as long as the characters have depth, the book is genuinley involving and fun, then you can't go that far wrong, can you?

For me, the only important pre requisit is that the Eldar must be written with in a style that treats them with respect. This sounds a littel dishywashy really. What I mean is that hte Eldar as subjects need to be treated in a series of books like this the same way as mankind and the imperium (see space marines) are in their respective novels.

Cheers!

SV_Harlequin
10-12-2007, 17:10
The problem with Eldar characters at the moment, what little there are they either seem to die quickly and or in stupid ways, or end up being midget decrepid traitors Chaos tainted scum.
The only redeemable 2 have been Farseer Auric Stormcloud and his Banshee Bodyguard and hell he's now stuck possessing a human body.

They need to be written in a way they are described as actually being.

Rockerfella
10-12-2007, 19:05
Exactly. Couldn't agree more. The thing for me here, is that the Eldar will always be 'not quite as ard' as their imperial counterparts when represented in novels. In all fairness, this shouldn't be the case, as technologically they're eons in front and regardless of how many people yell from the rafters 'Argh, they're just aliens. They don't know anymore than humanity does! They can die, they can be beaten! They're fragile idiotic pointy eared emo's!!' blah blah.

For me, they should be the barely understood random force in the galaxy thats feared and loathed with equal aplom! Why not? Marines should be apprehensive of their martial power and know that they're in for a fight, and may have as much chance of losing as of winning. The guard should barely know a thing about them and fear them when the Eldar descend from the heavens.

I know this sounds biased and one sided. It is. But this is how I percieve the Eldar to be. Kind of like the Vorlons ya know?

This interpretation only works if the Eldar intervene or aren't the main subject of the story. For our story here, they will be. This changes the dynamic of the story in mahy ways, not least that the Eldar, to themselves, aren't nearly as 'mystical' or 'weird' as they are to us. How do you represent that on paper?

I've gotta run!

Cheers.

Kage2020
10-12-2007, 19:47
I know this sounds biased and one sided. It is. But this is how I percieve the Eldar to be. Kind of like the Vorlons ya know?
A remarkably apt comment, in my mind, but it's never going to happen. Too unbalancing on the game. ;)

(And, of course, that would make the C'tan/Necrons the Shadows. Perish the thought that something so obvious be included in the 40k universe. ;))

Kage

Rockerfella
10-12-2007, 19:55
A remarkably apt comment, in my mind, but it's never going to happen. Too unbalancing on the game. ;) Of course! If unbalancing in this respect means 'The imperium sometimes loses'. Darn it, i'm so jaded. ;)


(And, of course, that would make the C'tan/Necrons the Shadows. Perish the thought that something so obvious be included in the 40k universe. ;))

Kage

Yeah, exactly. Something so obvious and yet so wonderfully 'apt', as you said. Well, they can't change my views, thats for sure! I've always seen it this way, and always will. Darn stubborn old fool I am.

I like opposites, and I like opposition. Its nice to have balance in the cosmos. Humanity is a young race. I've always believed the Eldar to be an ancient and powerful force (Vorlon esque) that can intervene and play a vital part in galactic affairs, but rarely and only in the most 'mysterious' and less obvious of circumstances. Mostly chosing to leave everyone else well alone and continue with its farsighted fight for survival.

Ahh, I can dream. :rolleyes:

SV_Harlequin
10-12-2007, 20:45
Wow its almost as if 40k bears some sort of resemblance to B5 nowadays doesn't it?
I mean before all this when there were very little info Eldar were just Elves in Space with very advanced tech and now well....

the 2 ways I see of actually doing anything Eldar related is you a) do it trough the Eyes of of an actual Eldar which means trying to find someone who can write for a race that sees everything in the long term/big picture with hundreds of years of conditioning and training backed up my all the obscure mysticism or b) as told as a story by an Eldar to a Human in some one - "come sit by my fire lost Human and listen to the story of a Pathfinder" or "Talk damn alien or I will rip out you heart and give you just enough time to let you watch as the Imperium crushes your world"

Yeah its never going to happen, the only Eldar characters are and will always be secondry and bit parts in books otherwise you risk screwing all the veiled alien path up.

Hell! look how long it took them do do a High Elf book, it only just came out this month (Gilead's Blood doesn't count), and Wood Elves aswell, Guardians of the Forest was a book about a Bret Lord and his interaction with the Asrai.
Which I suppose is really the only way you can write about a race/species so Alien to Man is seeing them through the eyes of your own kind, you do it with a Eldar/Elf etc as the main character you loose all the mystery.

Kage2020
10-12-2007, 21:36
Of course! If unbalancing in this respect means 'The imperium sometimes loses'. Darn it, i'm so jaded.
That would change the status quo, Rockerfella. (The Eldar in Kage-verse are not as... easy to pick off that they are in the TT wargame, though. :D)


I've always believed the Eldar to be an ancient and powerful force (Vorlon esque) that can intervene and play a vital part in galactic affairs, but rarely and only in the most 'mysterious' and less obvious of circumstances. Mostly chosing to leave everyone else well alone and continue with its farsighted fight for survival.
I'm reminded of Londo's comments in the film, In the Beginning. Paraphrased they would be something like, "If you don't bother them [the Minbari] they will not bother you."

Except with the Eldar that's not quite true. ;)


Wow its almost as if 40k bears some sort of resemblance to B5 nowadays doesn't it?
Or the obvious vice versa.


[quote=SV_Harlequin]Hell! look how long it took them do do a High Elf book...
Balanced against that, though, you've got the Dark Eldar books (Malthus Darkblade). Erm, but I wouldn't hold them up as an example of how to write those things....


...you do it with a Eldar/Elf etc as the main character you loose all the mystery.
The "mystery argument is one of those common against writing from the alien perspective, but to be honest I don't see it. Then again, actually learning something new about the 40k universe, or rather the lack of this, is why I find the novels so perpetually dull and uninspiring. (And why the Inquisition War is not the travesty that some argue that it is, or at least in my mind. In that novel you are given new and unique insights into the 40k universe, more so at the time of writing.)

For an Eldar novel, one would hope that we would learn new things, have new insights, not only into Eldar history, but also their psychology and culture. Perhaps even a reflective piece that allows comparison with the modern Eldar, whatsoever race is selected to tell the story (or perhaps all of them)?

If any such novel, or series of novels, was just the battle of one cult against "pleasure cult dissidents," then it might not be worth reading. ;)

Perhaps.

Kage

Bregalad
10-12-2007, 21:49
Of course! If unbalancing in this respect means 'The imperium sometimes loses'. Darn it, i'm so jaded. ;)
Look forward to the FW Imperial Armour book with Eldar participation (that will certainly come sometime in the future), as the Imperium ALWAYS loses in FW books ;)

Clockwork-Knight
10-12-2007, 22:31
Well, so far, they lost two times, the third one is still ongoing, but they probably won against the Traitors.

Heh, the siege of Vracks. The most idiotic war waged by the Imperium... :D
No air-support at all, no wonder they need at least 12 years according to their estimates...

kikkoman
10-12-2007, 23:39
http://www.sfreader.com/coverpics/moorcock_elric_end_of_time.jpg

Iracundus
11-12-2007, 03:05
The Imperium claims victory in the latest Aeronautica Imperialis expansion from FW. Then again the Tau claim victory too, but if one tries to look at it from an outsider point of view, I think the Imperium has (slightly) more basis to their claim. So the FW book could theoretically end up with the Imperium vs. Eldar, and the Eldar in the effeminate Xenos crushed by the manly Marines scenario.

The other problem is we still have only very fragmentary knowledge on Eldar military organization due to GW and FW's persistent refusal to examine alien races in any detail using the old excuse of "it's alien so we can't understand it."

One possibility for an Eldar vs. Imperium book would be the ongoing Lammas campaign, which in the background has been described as going on nonstop for 15 years at least with no signs of any end soon. One opportunity to show the mysteriousness of the Eldar might be to make the Imperium look like it has won but only for later events and hindsight to reveal the Eldar actually did. Of course that requires a bit more subtlety on the part of the FW writers, something which I have my doubts about.

SV_Harlequin
11-12-2007, 07:58
So one of those " The Eldar fight the Imperium for control of a planet and then for an unseen reason they just leave..... 100years later planet is Imerial stronghold and suddenly Whole Nid Fleet invades, practically destroys the Imperium populace, Eldar secrectly hid some sort of bomb under Planet, blow it up take out entire Nid Fleet and chunck of Imperium.

Rockerfella
11-12-2007, 17:54
That would change the status quo, Rockerfella. (The Eldar in Kage-verse are not as... easy to pick off that they are in the TT wargame, though. :D)

Indeed. As they are in 'Rocker-verse' too. The Eldar are more Minbari/Vorlon in my world. Not strange, psycho, crap gun wielding, super crappy armour wearing civilians, ala the TT game.



I'm reminded of Londo's comments in the film, In the Beginning. Paraphrased they would be something like, "If you don't bother them [the Minbari] they will not bother you."

Except with the Eldar that's not quite true. ;) For sure. Although, again, in my world, the Elar are pretty much as quoted above.



For an Eldar novel, one would hope that we would learn new things, have new insights, not only into Eldar history, but also their psychology and culture. Perhaps even a reflective piece that allows comparison with the modern Eldar, whatsoever race is selected to tell the story (or perhaps all of them)?

If any such novel, or series of novels, was just the battle of one cult against "pleasure cult dissidents," then it might not be worth reading. ;)

Perhaps.

Kage

It would be nice to see a book that reveals much that we dont already know. I mean, isn't that the point? The danger with the piece being from another races perspective (well, the imperiums perspective) is that it will be half filled with all that Imperial doctrine rubbish that rends the Eldar utterly pointless and useless in the extreme.

Unless Czevak is involved, of course. He seems to the be only inquisitor/imperial member capable of representing the Eldar as something like they actually are.

If it were written from a hive members prespective, or some roge trader, or a human without the four inch thick skull (and relative brain size) of a space marine or inquisitor, then it might be interesting.

I dunoo.... ;)