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Aun'aart'al
16-09-2005, 23:50
its on the last 3 pages of the first SM codex, the Company composition and such, but my question is; has anyone typed one of those out? lol because I Really dont want to type all that out, but if I have to I will, Im trying to get as Much Fluff for my Iron Dragons as possible, and if I had this it would really help show my Chapter

also, because my Chapter was created in the 33rd millenium (I believe), what technology does that limit me to? like what cant I take? I know that Razorbacks werent always there, but I want to know what I cant take

Shas'o'Fior
17-09-2005, 07:22
actually, IIRC they had more technology back then, not less (except in some cases) so....

Aun'aart'al
17-09-2005, 07:24
I remember reading on Warseer from someones reply to something I said, that the Razorbacks werent created or whatever until a specific part to the STC was found, and that wasnt right away or in the beginning or anything..?

Shas'o'Fior
17-09-2005, 07:59
Dunno...but then that could be one of the exceptions....

DantesInferno
17-09-2005, 09:20
A quick glance at the Chaos and Imperial lists will tell you that the Imperium has indeed developed some new technology in the intervening 10 000 years during the heresy (as has Chaos, though more daemonically oriented), but in many cases, its just an improvement or adaptation or miniaturisation of existing technology. In any case, after the Heresy the Imperium has developed (or put into regular use, or formalised the use of) items like the Assault Cannon, the Thunder Hammer, Storm Bolter, Plasma Cannon, Land Speeder, Land Raider Crusader, Predator Annihilator, Vindicator, Whirlwind....etc etc. And yes, if I remember correctly, the Razorback was a post-Heresy development.

I'm not aware of a date the Imperium developed the Razorback however, so as far as I'm concerned it would be perfectly reasonable to have a Chapter in M33 using them. They'd certainly get their hands on the new tech as soon as the rest of the Imperium anyway.

Brusilov
17-09-2005, 13:11
Land Raider Crusader variant would probably be out of the question. I don't quite remember when it was developped, but sometimes around M40 or somesuch, to such an extent that originally all Chapters except the Black Templars only had access to one of these.

The Razorback definitely strikes me as a post heresy development, but I don't know exactly when, so if we don't know, it's up to you to decide what you want to do.

bertcom1
17-09-2005, 14:10
Dates of Land Raider Crusader and Razorback

In Index Astartes 2, it mentions the Land Raider Crusader was officially sanctioned by the Adeptus Mechanicus in 763.M39, although 3/4 of the chapters were already using it at this point. Given that the AdMech took 200 years to authorise Predator Annihilators, the first Crusaders were probably 200 or more years before authorisation, so the Land Raider Crusader probably dates from the first half of M39.

The Razorback dates from the end of M35. In Index Astartes 4, in the article about the Predator, it mentions that the Predator used to have a small passenger capability, though this was removed for greater ammunition storage during the Great Crusade, and it was 5 millenia before the Razorback was discovered.
It also mentions an AdMech member, Chief Artisan Tilvius led an expedition at the end of the 36th Millenium (M35) looking for STC systems. They found hard copy data that led to the creation of the Razorback. They apparently also found information about a medium tank with capability between the Predator and the Land Raider.

Wintermute
17-09-2005, 17:00
According to Codex Armageddon, the Crusader was developed by the Black Templars during the Jerulas Crusade. Unfortunately the Codex doesn't give a date for the Jerulas Crusade. :(

Aun'aart'al
17-09-2005, 20:09
ok, so my Chapter, if I remember correctly, broke off from the Imperium and was declared Heretic around the 36th millenium, so can someone help me make a list of things I can't take in my army?

Rabid Bunny 666
17-09-2005, 21:20
and no predator annialators, they were made in M36 by the space wolves

Aun'aart'al
17-09-2005, 21:25
ok so so far Im looking at

no;
Razorbacks,
Predator Annihilators

Rabid Bunny 666
17-09-2005, 21:29
and land raider crusaders ;)

Aun'aart'al
17-09-2005, 21:30
oh, yes of course, my bad, sorry :)

Brother Othorio
17-09-2005, 23:09
razorbacks and land raider crusaders are a definate no-no

predator annihilators are a bit of a grey area, fluffwise they were invented after the heresy and yet chaos can take them without restriction.. (infact when i last checked the trial EPIC chaos army list the only Predators that chaos could take are Annihilators, albeit with different sponsons from the Imperials)

Vindicators were originally invented during the Horus Heresy (and quickly adopted by both sides), current fluff has them being invented in m336.m31 during the Great Heresy.. which from its use in the Salamanders IA seems to be just another word for the Horus Heresy (tho the older fluff had the HH ending in 021.m31, the most likely answer is no-one checked the numbers..)

Whirlwinds.. no date is know, original fluff had them used extensively on both sides during the HH, revised HH art has at least one Whirlwind in it (Word Bearers) and no date has ever been given for its coming into use

Thunderhammers & Stormshields~ post heresy, inservice date unknown

Assault Cannons ~ were in existance by the time of the Horus Heresy but were not widely used due to their being a logisical nightmare (they chew through barrels as quickly as they chew through xenos scum)

Land Speeders.. Land Speeders are so named because they were discovered by Arkhan(Arkham?) Land, the same person who discovered the 'Land' Raider' which were certainly in widespread use at the time ~ i'd say they were probably almost certainly (whoa! hows that for noncomittal) in use by m33.

mind you i'm one of those people who believes things that were left out of the chaos army lists in order to give them a different tabletop play style should not be dismissed from the fluff

Rabid Bunny 666
17-09-2005, 23:26
fair doos, and the heresy may have finished, but pushing them out of real space took a while

Aun'aart'al
19-09-2005, 21:38
ok so from what Ive gathered.. I cant have

- Land Raider Crusaders
- Razorbacks
- Predator Annihilators
- Assault Cannons

is that about accurate?

DantesInferno
20-09-2005, 08:28
Assault Cannons would be fine for a Chapter in M33 as far as I'm concerned. They were in very limited use pre- and during the Heresy (not more widespread due to problems with maintainence, propensity to explode etc), so the more reliable autocannon was apparently preferred. However, it would seem reasonable that the Assault Cannon, along with the rest of the wargear for Terminators which came into widespread use post-Heresy (eg storm bolters) would have come into widespread use shortly after the Heresy, and almost definately before M33.

Aun'aart'al
20-09-2005, 15:23
all I was saying is that because the assault cannon appearently had so many problems breaking down and whatnot, whats the point in taking them if they break down every 2nd turn?

DantesInferno
20-09-2005, 21:50
Well, the idea would be that the Imperium has improved on the reliability of the Assault Cannon since the Heresy, enough to make it useable in general (but the Chapters using it will have good tech support). If this is the Machine God/C'tan worshipping Chapter, I would imagine that they'd be very careful in maintaining their equipment.

But if you're very concerned about using the right equipment, you could always have a glance at the Chaos Codex - it gives an idea of what a chapter would be using without all the high tech add ons of Codex SM. Just avoid all the Daemon stuff, obviously,

Aun'aart'al
20-09-2005, 22:48
yes, this is about my C'tan chapter, but since they are an Iron Hands successor, and have a small Adeptus Mechanicus cult as their allies, wouldnt that result in a higher-than-normal number of Techmarines, thus increasing the state of their technology?

Brimstone
21-09-2005, 05:33
According to Codex Armageddon, the Crusader was developed by the Black Templars during the Jerulas Crusade. Unfortunately the Codex doesn't give a date for the Jerulas Crusade. :(

*Hugs IA2*

304.M39

If you are using M33 as your theme then you must also restrict the Land Raider Helios and Land Speeder Tempest.

Of course any chapter is likely to have gained new techology since their founding so if set in the current time period they will probably have access to almost everything.

Aun'aart'al
21-09-2005, 05:36
declared Heretics during the 33rd millenia (if I remember right), and havent been apart of the Imperium since

Brimstone
21-09-2005, 06:17
declared Heretics during the 33rd millenia (if I remember right), and havent been apart of the Imperium since

Ah OK didn't know that. In that case some of the more advanced fickle technology may be less well represented as access to spare parts etc is restricted.

Land Speeders for example may be present but numbers will be limited.

Sai-Lauren
21-09-2005, 11:54
Whirlwind was heresy era, the Salamanders created it, and the traitor legions copied it.

The new rhino is supposedly fairly recent, so you'd be more in keeping with your fluff if you used the old one. Older dreadnought marks would be better as well.

Storm bolter is post-heresy, as seen by the Traitor Legions using combi-bolters.

Brother Othorio
21-09-2005, 13:15
The new rhino is supposedly fairly recent, so you'd be more in keeping with your fluff if you used the old one. Older dreadnought marks would be better as well. isnt the fluff for the current (mkV) dreadnought that it was introduced shortly after the Horus Heresy because the mkIV proved to be overly susceptable to daemonic possession? and i thought the 'new' Rhino came into service in m31.. (from the numbers on the box front)



Storm bolter is post-heresy, as seen by the Traitor Legions using combi-bolters.
true, but the difference between combi and storm bolters is vastly overrated ruleswise (i actually think the 3.x twin linked rules are a pile of crap, the only really fluffy rules for combi-bolters are the one from the 2e wargear book: identical to Storm Bolter in every way, but has a -1 to hit due to the poor balance and lack of targetter)

Sai-Lauren
21-09-2005, 13:57
True enough, but how long would it take to get some of those new marks out and replacing existing equipment? ;)
Especially for things like dreadnoughts.

Anyway it's a nice extra little hook for an Iron Hands successor going renegade - their dreadnoughts got corrupted through a flaw in the suits, and as the lead figures of the chapter took the rest of them with them.

Aun'aart'al
21-09-2005, 15:00
lol not exactly how it happened, actually ;) if you want to read the fluff to see how it happened, just send me a PM and I'll send a copy

Aun'aart'al
24-09-2005, 03:11
just a quick question..?

the Fortress Monasteries of chapters, are they not like the Ramillies Star Forts? (or however you spell it :p :rolleyes: ) or are they simply smaller and more of an asteroid-base-thingie?