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Fate
05-12-2007, 02:37
Hi all, now that i finally have my HE army book i made the lists i want to have and will start working towards them. Please bear in mind that i make cheese lists however they are still good and tournament ready, if you dislike cheesy lists i understand but don't go personal, just analise the tactics of them and coment based on that please.

First the combat list.

Prince - 635
Star Dragon
Null Stone
Lance
Heavy Armour
Shield

Mage LV1 - 140
2x Dispel Scroll

Mage LV1 - 140
2x Dispel Scroll

10 Archers - 110

10 Archers - 110

10 Sword Masters - 187
Blade Lord
The Skeinsliver

6 Dragon Princes - 260
FC
Banner of Ellyrion
The Amulet of Light

4 Bolt Throwers - 400

Total 1982 (no real good use for ther 18 left)

The tactics is pretty simple, the dragon either kills off the enemies or if they are still too much of a treat, he simply flies around the the bolt throwers do the rest.
The knights are good and can go through woods which will also possibilitate a charge when the enemies might not and also can strike ethereal enemies, and that rawks!
The sword masters are there to give a better chance of starting the game and also for bolt thrower protection (2 attacks with str 5 and strike first, yup, that's good).

Now for the heavy magic.

Archmage LV4 - 360
Book of Hoeth

Mage LV2 - 185
Ring of Fury
Silver Wand

Mage LV2 - 170
Jewel of Dusk
Dispel Scroll

Mage LV2 - 175
Ring of Corin
Dispel Scroll

10 Archers - 110

10 Archers - 110

10 Sword Masters - 187
Blade Lord
The Skeinsliver

10 Sword Masters - 212
Standard
Banner of Sorcery

5 Shadow Warriors - 80

4 Bolt Throwers - 400

Total 1989 (Again no good use for 11 points).

The tactics once again are prety simple, i stay the hell back using my Sword Masters to protect the bolt throwers. It looks like flying units can catch it but they realy can't if you do the following. Place the Bolt Trowers on a hill, just near the edge, then place the Sword Masters on the ground near it, if you do this well enough, when the enemy declares a charge against the bolt throwers just stand your ground and place your crew on the front of the bolt thrower and now there won't be enough space for the enemy to fit between your crew and the swords masters, it's a failed charge (talk about dirty tricks :evilgrin:). Then place your mages inside your units for protection and perhaps the archmage might fit in the shadow warriors. The rest of the game will be a blast of fun!

Fate
06-12-2007, 04:10
Well, 33 people have looked at the list and not said a word. I'm guess either they don't like cheesy armies and won't comment on that or actually the army is good and there is no need to talk about it.

Knowing people here makes me think it's probably the first lol.

Unwise
06-12-2007, 04:42
Normally people comment when there is some tinkering to be done with the list, but with a list like this there is not much to be done to make them anything but what they are.

I am not really an expert on cheese, but it seems that alot of the lists I see like this I just cannot picture them winning. For all the attempted brokenness they just don't look overly effective to me.

List 1:
- Only has 2 combat units. There is just so much wrong with that I don't really know where to start.
- Against any army with cannons, boltthrowers, heck even handgunners the dragon rider is toasted. T3 4+AS on a large target will not last long.
- The enemy only has two targets they need to focus on, then they have a free run killing whatever they feel like.
- RBTs are good for taking out chariots/giants etc but are just not that great for dealing with infantry blocks.
- The table will be wide open, little to impede the progress of the enemy towards the juice underbelly of the army.
- Both the dragon and the DPs better hope they break whatever they hit on the charge, as everything they do will be unsupported.
- The null stone might be good against cheesy characters etc, but you have a weak character on the back of that dragon. Rank and file troops and basic shooting will take him out quickly enough.


List 2:
- Where is Teclis? If your cheesing out, that badboy is worth every point of his cost and more.
- Unsupported shadowwarriors will most likely die before getting to block one march move.
- The enemy has a clear table to run across to reach you.
- I just don't think for all that cheesyness that 4RBTs and 4 mages can wipe out an entire army before it reaches your deployment zone.
- Even if 2 combat units reach your lines, you will be wiped out.
- Against many armies, even if you turn an entire unit to dust every turn, you will still lose.

Why swordmasters in each list? Why not WL? They are more designed for this barrier role and have a 3+ vs shooting so some might live to see combat.

I assume these are designed for a tournament setting, as they are sure not friendly lists. Given that, people expect this sort of cheese. Each army will have something to deal with your dragon. The opposition will either be a gunline, which other armies do better than HE. Or they will be designed for dealing with spell/gunlines which will mean trouble for these armies.

Fate
06-12-2007, 12:42
Against warmachines i might have some troubles to keep the dragon alive, but then i'll just keep him hidden, It's true the enemy will have a clear march across the table but that doesn't worry me, the sword masters can take care of nearly anything, in the end the archers are expendable so it's ok.

The enemy has doesn't have only 2 targets, the BT are 400 points and can make a great deal of damage and the sword masters are better for the role of defending them as in combate they make your points worth, perhaps the have less armour, but i belive the enemy will be more troubled with other things beside them if they have shoothing.

As for the mage list.
First i don't use special characters, besides i prefer a normal archmage as it takes less points and won't take an extra hero slot.

The shadow warriors are not there to march block movement, they are there to provide a little cover for the archmage, and if possible, claim a table quarter, however i don't expect them to live long against armies like wood elves or beastmen.

Also i belive you underextimate 15 power dices and 4 BT, mages can earn 2 times their value that easly. With empire and only 12 dices my mages used to kill about 1000 pts and they have much more trouble in making the spells come into play.

Even if the enemy hits my combat lines there are still 2 units of sword masters and they can't really beat them that easly, against foot units they kill about 5 models per combat round, as long as the unit has only 2 ranks i already win the combat, then there are the archers, really they are just core filling, don't really mind losing them, it's only 220 pts so they're pretty much expendable.

Xzazzarai
06-12-2007, 16:29
The SMs can not take care of nearly everythings. Shooting will be their bane, so will chariots and big ranked units. Don't expect them to hold the enemy at bay for more than 2 turns. You need something to stop them from reaching your mages, cuz when they do - you're toast!
Allso, you will struggle agains other magic-heavy armies like VC and TK, not to talk about Tzeentch, who will utterly crush you if they go for a speedy-hitlist.
- Get some eagles in to marchblock.
- One units of 20 spears can do wonders.

Zensunni
06-12-2007, 17:53
I second that sir, Swordmasters cannot stand up against anything and thinking that ten will do anything is just kinda silly? When was the last time you saw ten elves stand up to 25 rats? or 20 Skels? or 20 Orcs? Sure they may kill alot 5-6 if your lucky most likely they lose due to CR and run. Not to mention they will get shot or magicked to death before they get anywhere. Sorry for the long rant but I think its silly that so many people think that so few units can be successful.

Anywhoo, you need some numbers friend. Even with the shooting you have any horde army, Orcs, Skaven, even undead will massacre you, simply through there numbers.

Fate
07-12-2007, 03:43
From my gaming years i learned one thing. Number do not acomplish anything in warhammer. Yay, they are a lot, then die horribly.
True CR might be a pain but if my shooting takes care to leave the enemy with only 2 ranks they will not have more than 4 points for CR (2 ranks, outnumber and banner) while i still get 5 kills.
Also when did i said i'd be marching against the enemy? I clearly said that i stay the hell back, i have more than enough firepower/magicpower to blast nearly everything off the table.

If the enemy comes with shoothing, the last thing i'll worry about is the sword masters, cause then most likely they won't have enough troops to overcome me.
Also most players use good units like strong cavalary, monsters and stuff, big block of good for nothing units is the last thing i find on a battlefield here so i have the sword masters to prevent fliers from getting to my bolt throwers.

Yes the bolt throwers can't take care of everything, nor magic alone can, even both together won't be guaranteed to kill everything, however, as long as i keep in balance what to kill first and what i let charge me, it's ok really as mostly anything that charges me will die at the hands of the sword masters.

Also spears do nothing, have them charged by monsters, dragon ogres, a good cavalary and watch them get trampled and that's what i'm usually up against, it's not just an exception.
Eagles? no tks, i'll keep my 4 bolt throwers, they are worth the points in every game while eagles rarely are worth the points and worst, stop me from having something very efective.

I know you usually play with a lot of infantry blocks and all, but i'd like you all to try making a roster that would be absent from that and then play against the normal enemies you have just to see what i mean that numbers don't matter in warhammer. I know it might look otherwise, but just try it out a few times and maybe you'll get to the same conclusion.

fubukii
07-12-2007, 17:56
My skaven army would dominate both the magic list, and the combat list. jezzails and wlcs will kill all your troops and gutter runners will kill the throwers, then you have 8 blocks of 30 infantry to deal with :)


Your list relys to too much on A the dragon and b your magic and neither are strong enough to win games for you against a decent general :)

Fate
08-12-2007, 03:59
fubukii, i'd take that challenge up anytime with my magic list. A pitty you're not from Portugal otherwise we'd get to see that in the table.

Warp lightning cannons are very random so i'm not too worried about them, jezzails can be a pain, granted. However they'd be the first target for my bolt throwers and i'd make sure to have a curse of arrow attraction on them.

Gutter runners, yeah, i hate those guys, hate them with a passion really, they can destroy warmachines just like that. However i find har to belive they'll cath more than one as them my magic witll teach them a leasson they soon won't forget... Or so i hope :p

Edit: Almost forgot the blocks of infantry... Let them come, i'll answer it with arrows, magic and swords.

fubukii
08-12-2007, 12:49
the problem is wlc can shoot through terrain and units ;)

im just trying to show you that even with 15pd you dont have enough magic to kill enough guys in most armies to stop them from getting to you and winning. in the magic list you spend 400 pts on bolt throwers, and roughly 800-900 on soft cloth mages. right there thats a easy 1200 pts i can get just by crossing the table and the archers wont offer much resistance either.


and for you other list if your going for a dragon combat army, drop the bolt throwers it will be too hard to protect them with your 600pt general and knights and such, i suggest taking eagles to kill warmachines and redirect units. in addition drop the swordmasters, and 1 mage and add more princes for hitting power. this way you have a fast heavy hitting army with multiple units of princes, and a elf prince who can dish out some hefty damage as well.

Fate
09-12-2007, 10:02
WLC do not worry me too much, they are very random, the str can be low, the range can be low. Not really something i'm afraid, i'm much more worried about the magic they have and the screaming bell.

You are right when you say i'm spending 1200 in just 8 models, but at the end of the day those 8 models alone can destroy even more than that.

Of course i'm not expecting to see my archers fighting and killing everything, alas they are just the 2 core choices i have to bring, otherwise i wouldn't even field them, i'd use shadow warriors instead. In the end it's just 220 points which i'm more than prepared to lose.

I still say that you croos the table, are faced by sword masters and you die, the only thing that really bothers me are the gutter runners with tunneling that can take 1 or 2 machines before i wipe them out.


About the dragon list, it only works because of the bolt throwers, sometimes my character won't be enough, not if playing against other armies with dragons, so i use my character to fly around the enemy dragon, nullifing all items he have and using the bolt throwers to finish him off since his ward save won't work.

Saying to drop a mage is a very bad choice for me, any army here that has magic comes with at very least 3 mages, i'm dead if i don't get at least 4 scrolls agaisnt those (do bear in mind that both lists are tournament ready, i don't make list against a specific foe).

I don't need more dragon princes, the only reason i have 6 is because there was a good score of points left but couldn't field a unit with them.

Also i won't drop sword masters, they are for the bolt throwers protection, i wish i had points to take a second unit but the dragon princes are more of a priority.

fubukii
09-12-2007, 16:37
WLC are on average str6 with a 28 inch range doing d6 wounds. What u are over estimating is the power of 10 swordmasters, they are very fragile and unless u run them 7 wide i dont have faith in 11str 5 attacks breaking my lines of skaven troops (11attacks .66 hit .83 of those hits wound .17 of which are saved. thats assuming assuming i dont hit you with any shooting, or any magic. also for some reason you think in heavy extremes you do not need 4 mages.depending on the lore you take (assumming you take high magic and or another useufl lore) you may not even get a decent offensive spell (high magic as 2) (heavens as a few but only 1 is really good) (lore of fire is probably your best bet as only the flaming sword and burning head are somewhat useless in your army)

In addition you dont need 4 scrolls and 4 mages to be at stopping magic your ah igh elf you already have +1 to dispell and drain magic at your disposal. In addition 95% of the time the best way to deal with enemy magic is jsut to kill their mages, and plenty of armies have great ways to kill mages. (tunnelers for skaven, cav, flyers etc) While i will admit this will be a bit mor diffcult vs high elves bc of the SOA rule but against any other armyt u charge in your suicide unit and down their 180-300+ pt mage in 1 round of combat, then you lose combat via cr then flee, and now thier magic phase as took a major hit.

Settler
09-12-2007, 16:51
Both lists are a bit light on hitty IMHO. I'd trade in an RBT or two and get some heavy infantry at least in blocks of 15.

Fate
09-12-2007, 23:08
Actually, i don't keep ranks in my units. It's a 10 wide swordmasters unit. You forget when i said it was for the bolt thrower protection so that even fliers won't be able to charge them... Well the only way for that to happen is to have them 10 wide, now 2 units 10 wide each, i cover 20 inches of table, my bolt throwers have a pretty good shield.
You also seam to think you have mych shooting in your skaven list, but please just post the list here with the points to see it cause with all you said you field i very much doubt you have more than 10 jezzails and if i put a curse of arrow attraction i can take them out in one turn, besides just one unit won't do much damage against the swords masters.

You say i don't need 4 scrolls fubukii? Well just today i had 2 games, one i played with empire and the only reason that i didn't need any scroll was cause i killed the level 4 mage inside a unit with my cannons at first turn. This meant 1 shot hitting, a look ou sir failed, a ward save of 4 falied and then causing d6 wounds i took a 4.

Now i played chaos against empire, it had 2 dispel scrolls, the pope on the war altar and 3 level 2 mages. As for me i had a level 4 mage and 3 level 2 mages, also a power familiar and went for slannesh.
At my first turn he wasted his 2 scrolls, his dice and even took 2 spells.
At the second turn my magic was ripping through his army like a hot knife through butter. You seriously underextimate the magic.

Settler, bolt throwers are more than worth their points, i'd never field an army with less than 4!

fubukii
10-12-2007, 02:11
instead of shooting the mage with cannons you can just get hm in combat and attack him as a said before there are plenty of great units at killing mages! (gutters rock at it for skaven, tomb scorpions too!)and every army has a good way to deal with them. Idk it just seems like for some reason if you dont have 4 mages you think armies are gimped :/ i assure you i have taken plenty of armies to Tournys, and have done better against 4 mage armies, bc they are paper once you get to them, sure the magic can hurt if they get the right spells, and dont miscast, but its too risky you will miscast a good amount of the time throwing out so many dice a turn, and since your putting all your eggs in one basket all you need is to loose 1 magic phase via miscast early on, or even not that early, and your army is severly behind in the game. THis is not even including stuff like the helheart, Vortex shard etc.

Fate
14-12-2007, 03:36
Usually they are, but when you charge it, and suddenly the puny mage has the sword that makes of him a greater deamon... And guess what, mounted on a steed of slanesh, things start to get messed up.

A level 4 mage with the profile of a greater deamon. 3 other mages. Banner of wrath. Power familiar. Yet, it still manages to keep it's striking power with the lord and the chaos knights. Keep furies for flying and 3 units of beastmen.

Also i know he'll change the roster a bit as to have 5 chaos knights, a few less beastmen and get a unit of 3 dragon ogre to have an extra hitting power he needs.

Now, do you really thing i'll make a prety roster with spearmen and lost of infantry or chariots, even eagles, or go for what really hurts him and makes it dificult to advance?

sing Sang a song
14-12-2007, 04:19
how about using this lord
Elf Prince
star lance, guardian phoenix,dragon armour,and Helm of fortune/ armour of caledor,and riding a star dragon

Red_Duke
14-12-2007, 11:05
Meh, id agree that its too light on the old rank and file - either inf or cav. Gotta say, i rarely see a shooty army break the back of a horde army (skaven or orcs say) without some SERIOUS shooting (ala dwarves, empire, or possibly skaven).

Also, list two is terribly vulnerable to the Lizards (2nd gen would eat you for breakfast) imo, and with such minimal inf in both, youve not only gotta keep away from shooting, but from things like JSOD's, and other fast charging nastiness that will invariably go after your wizards. Also, Dragon is nasty, but i still cant see it standing up to a STank (or god forbid two). Oh, and a KF on Dragon speaking of empire would gut that little punk (and his dragon).

Magic is too hit and miss for my liking too - it always seems to go wrong JUST when you need it, leaving you high and dry. Theres also then things like diadems, which can end the magic phase on the first spell, which can often throw a spanner into the works...

Settler
14-12-2007, 13:23
bolt throwers are more than worth their points, i'd never field an army with less than 4!
Inherently, that's not a smart habit to have. I.e. always doing something extreme - the same thing.

Shooting is not an HE strength. Infantry is.

Xzazzarai
14-12-2007, 14:14
I second that sir, Swordmasters cannot stand up against anything and thinking that ten will do anything is just kinda silly? When was the last time you saw ten elves stand up to 25 rats? or 20 Skels? or 20 Orcs? Sure they may kill alot 5-6 if your lucky most likely they lose due to CR and run. Not to mention they will get shot or magicked to death before they get anywhere. Sorry for the long rant but I think its silly that so many people think that so few units can be successful.

Anywhoo, you need some numbers friend. Even with the shooting you have any horde army, Orcs, Skaven, even undead will massacre you, simply through there numbers.


If you get skellies in the front, you've done something terribly wrong my friend.

With MSU, you gotta avoid frontal combat, which shouldn't be too hard in an army with M5...

And if you got a unit of 20, don't ya think they'll get shot to death? Or avoided? It's eitherway...
I mean, what would you do?

fubukii
14-12-2007, 15:46
ok so your friend runs like 3 chaos mages and will probably have like 2 units left total, and your right that unit will be hard to beat from the front thats why you should flank it :)

Fate
16-12-2007, 11:56
Thing is fubukii, he's not stupid enough to let me do that, we've been playing each other for years, it's hard for people to play tricks like that on us, we already know what to expect and how to counter it.

Red_Duke, it is true that magic is uncertain, however i belive you just have some bad luck with it, god knows how much bad luck i used to have with combat some time back. I've been known to be a heavy magic user in warhammer and i can tell you it goes wrong for me one in ten times. And by wrong i mean failing to cast 2 or 3 spells on the first 2 turns and thus my opponent had time to get to me with some damage on him, but not enough (althout that was empire and had not much to fight).

Do not underextimate the power of 4 bolt throwers, it can cause more damage than you actually give it credit. It's just a matter of priorities. Also a bolt thrower do not need to kill 100 points of the enemy army to be worth, it only needs to do it's job on the battlefield (which differs from enemy to enemy).

I do not need ranks, i can kill enough enemies to win most combats.

I'd really like to see what would that slan do to me, cause i can screw his magic pretty easly, however his dispeling qualities are not that good.
Also lizards might be a little bother, but generaly speaking, i'd be more concerned about brets, they have flying cav and normal cav, all with a decent save and much movement.

fubukii
16-12-2007, 12:52
you still over are over looking that eagles can redirect the charge of his big uber pricey unit :x

Please look at my diagrams.

ebonicmaser
16-12-2007, 18:32
List 2:
- Where is Teclis? If your cheesing out, that badboy is worth every point of his cost and more.


I don't see how anyone could possibly think Teclis is now a fieldable piece

The book of hoeth is nice, but not much else about him makes him worth anything imo

Semi_Bunny
16-12-2007, 21:54
I'm sorry Fate but are you serious? Why are you posting your list if you're going to rebuttle to everyone's advice with "no but my way is better." The best way to improve is to listen to criticism,and I presume you posted your armylist here to receive advice on it, not to tell everyone how you would beat them with it.

Anyway, I'd consider field testing the armies against a few different players (if you haven't already) before you put it into a tournament (I'm guessing you plan on based on the composition), just to get a better feel for them and which you would prefer. I would personally go for the first one, but I see a problem with 4 bolt throwers being that due to terrain placement and unit placement, you might not be able to fire all of them all the time. Also if you do plan to enter these into a tournament, I would hope there are no composition scores in it, or if there are that you make up for it with a heck of a paint job and good sportsmanship.

Fate
25-12-2007, 04:31
Composition scores is not in use here, it was used some year back... like 7 or 8 years back, when i started playing, however people made too much noise about it (and rightfully so) i mean, why should people get penalties if the list allows it? People should not get a less competitive army if just because the grand masters of combat (AKA: chaos) think it's a pain in the ass.

Also i posted my list here to show what would be a list that wins games, i see everyday lists here that are pretty, but truely, the chances of it winning anything are very low.

Also 4 bolt throwers will fire every turn, granted, they won't always get to fire on the specific target they want, but they'll always have a target, that's for sure.

fubukii, where are those diagrams? I never saw an eagle making an enemy charge it for nothing, if they get in the way, you charge it and then redirect the charge as it flees, otherwise you pretty much ignore it. Like i said, unless you get a frenzied unit for it, they won't do much good at redirecting charges.

winkypinky
25-12-2007, 11:28
http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119209

I would suggest something along those lines....

The basicly does what both your lists does.

fubukii
26-12-2007, 06:14
I was almost positive they were posted in this thread they must of got edited out, but nonetheless ill repost as i dont see a reason why they cant be posted, as its game related.

Here is the scenario you have eagle, And a friendly unit. Your enemy has hit unit SHown here (note i suck at ms paint and all things that involve drawing, so it is not to scale, but just for visual purposes)

http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/1741/redirectingwl5.th.jpg (http://img186.imageshack.us/my.php?image=redirectingwl5.jpg)

Now you place eagle on a angle on one of the corners of the enemy unit exactly 1inch away blocking the charge to your friendly unit,and Since you must Wheel and allign to the front/flank/rear of the unit you choose to charge, you must wheel into the eagle , and since in 7th edition there are no "redirect" charge rules they will continue in a direct straight line into the eagle and chasing it if it flees, either resulting in a failed charge (wheel then half charge range, or Catching the poor eagle going full distance in the path Directly in that same line)

http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/1342/redirectingpart2vy0.th.jpg (http://img205.imageshack.us/my.php?image=redirectingpart2vy0.jpg)

http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/1630/redirectingpart3qo8.th.jpg (http://img509.imageshack.us/my.php?image=redirectingpart3qo8.jpg)


ANd this is what we call "redirecting" charges its a very useful skaven tactic ( or can be used by any army with cheap expendable units), commonly used with the checkerboard deployment ( or with fast cav/flyers). It takes a good bit to get the hang of doing it and you must be Really good at distance gauging and postioning your units, but done properly you can win the game in the movement phase with certain armies . Any further questions on the matter and i would be glad to answer them, i hope this will shed some light on why great eagles are a useful asset to any high elf army.

Semi_Bunny
26-12-2007, 16:24
Ah yes fubukii, That tactic works very well with swarms I find. Since the high elves dont have any swarms though, eagles are your best option for it. When I field jungle swarms I use it to move my friends hammer units into flank charging range for my kroxis or out of the way of my slann block. However, swarms dont flee but are almost guaranteed to die and on the overrun it will get the unit where you want them to go. But anyway yeah thats why eagles are useful, and they'll also add another dimension to your army.

noneshallpass!
27-12-2007, 00:41
List 1:
Do you want to play Warhammer, or rock-scissors-paper?

List 2:
Do you want to play Warhammer, or Yahtzee?

Fate
27-12-2007, 12:05
Although i don't have my rule book at hand i will risk saying this much. You can redirect charges, as long as after the unit you charged first flees, and now another possible charges shows up when before it was impossible.

So it would mean that as the eagle flees the spears would become electabše for charging and thus i would be able to redirect the charge.

Also noneshallpass!. I don't know what game you play, but i do play warhammer, i'm sorry if you don't like to play with people who actually play to win, but in the future keep those comments to yourself.

Semi_Bunny
27-12-2007, 16:01
Yeah your right about the redirect rule there fate, as long as the charge couldnt have been done in the first place its legit. Thats why however you hold with the eagle and sacrifice him. Once he dies the enemy unit should overrun into flank charging position of your spears. This is why people most often employ this tactic with cheap swarms, though eagles at 50 points each arent bad.

fubukii
27-12-2007, 21:54
No they actually got rid of the redirect charge rule from 6th edition in the transition to 7th edition and replaced it with ENemy in the way on page 23 of the rule book. Regardless the rule for redirect charges from 6th edition that u speak of, would only work if your target Was not in LOS to the unit it wished to redirect into, in the case of the diagram, even using out dated 6th edition rules you Still would be unable to redirect because the unit is in los (a beardy loophole back in the day). But to make a long story short theres only Enemy in the way so if you choose to charge the eagle, unless you run directly into another enemy you may not declare another charge. (ps: remember u may only wheel once during your entire charge move so after u wheel to the eagle your stuck going that way)

Kam
29-12-2007, 02:34
I personally dont see this as cheesey one bit. your lord would fall to a hail of arrows or handguns, and your archers would be dead meat against almost any sort of fliers. dragon prices can hold their own and so can swordmasters, but swordmasters can only do that if they get into combat. you only have 2 units of 10, they could be riddled by wood elves easilly.

i suggest you protect your lord and you change your heroes around.

I LOVE the vambraces of defence with the the armour of caledor and a great weapon. 2+ armour save, rerollable, 4+ ward. If you must have him on a dragon then of course a star dragon is the best idea, but i would also give him the amulet of light for 15 points, this gets rid of deamons saves, wood elf forest spirit saves, and lets him cleave through ethereal units with ease... and his dragon's attacks become magical too! he would only have S5 but i dont see anything wrong with a lord with S5 who always strikes first with the protection that guy has.

next i would also take a dragon mage. haveing 2 dragons in a 2000 point list IS CHEESEY, no matter how you look at it. I like to give him the silver wand and lvl2mage and the ring of fury. with his 'free' power die that he generates he has the potential to have enough power to cast all 3 spells THEN the ring, giving him an output of 4 spells in one turn... on a dragon!

bolt throwers are always nice but 4 can be a bit much... 3 of them is 20 swordmasters and i would put more faith in the swordmasters. i use 1 or 2 bolt throwers in my army.

next... you gotta beef up those swordmaster units! make sure they get into combat! i like giving them the lion standard or the standard of balance... theres not much more embarassing then having your swordmasters run from a few measley skeletons...let alone letting them get run down! i also use swordmasters in a unit 7 wide, this allows for more men to get into combat... more S5 attacks are always a good thing.

dont use many archers, S3 shots usually arent to be relied upon... and spearmen that strike first in 3 ranks is a great way to counter skirmishers, light infantry, fast cavalry, and most medium-threat units.

i dont put my lord on a star dragon so i can keep him with swordmasters to give swordmasters a stronger oomph.... also it allows me to use a battle standard bearer; allowing rerolled failed break tests are always welcome, and the battle banner is also always welcome.

as for your magic army, i think it could use some heavy cav. it would allow you to engage enemy units in a variety of distances, their mobility could end up saving a mage or 2.

Fate
29-12-2007, 04:35
Semi_Bunny, although such situation do is possible, the idea was to use the eagle to stop a charge from happening, and that is not happening, i wouldn't give my flank to something that would kick my ass, more to say that i wouldn't even think on charging the primary unit (excluding the eagle) if it meant to have a nasty flank charge.

fubukii, like i said, i don't have my book at hand, will only have it back sunday so i won't put my hands on the fire, but i still think you get to redirct charges.
Although speaking 6th i tell you, it's not only a unit you don't originally see, is a unit you can't originally charge.

Kam, you do have valid points of course, it's true that the lord is not very well protected, but his only paper is to kill nasty things like chaos lords, vampires and such, i really don't care if he dies by shooting because it will mean i don't have much to worry about for close combat and the dragon alone should be more than enough to handle them.

The archers, as said earlier during this thread, they are not there because they are so great, they are there cause i need cheap expendable core and even though spearmen can be cheaper in units of 10, i'll be better served by archers who after all still take care of light cav and enemy shooting units.

Swordmasters are not there to charge the enemy, if he wants them, he has to come and get it! They are there to protect the bolt throwers, thus why i use them 10 wide. You probably have seen they way i use them in the magic list, that's what they are there to do and that's all i'm giving for them, i'm not expecting them to move across the table and win anything, otherwise i'd take 15 or 20 of them in block.

The dragon princes are just a fast moving unit that can go through woods and kill mostly anything not too armoured, good for skirmishers who like woods, shooting units and war machines.

Now, talking about options, the items you put on your lord are a very good combo, there is no doubt about that, however for you to use it you must be able to charge or get charged by the enemy, so it means that if the enemy also has a dragon, you might have trouble in doing that. Thus comes the null, you don't let me charge? Fine then have it your way, without any kind of save my bolt throwers will do the job.
I don't like to have characters designed for combat on foot, it means that they are losing movement and thus many possible charges, also it might be a lost of save in case you want to field it on a horse.

Now the dragon mage, trust me when i say, it's not worth it. You don't have any dispell scrolls or if you do, then your mage suck even more in combat than he usually does. Also a sun dragon sucks big time. 4 attacks with str5? No thanks!
Here bringing less than 4 dispell scrolls is suicide against a magic wielding army, cause usually, 4 dices and 4 scrolls will last for 2 turns, and you might even have to let some weaker spells in.

Also for my magic list, although i've thought about putting some cav, i prefer my sword masters that make my bolt throwers nearly impossible to charge, even for fliers.

Last but not least, there is no way i'll ever field less than 4 blot throwers, no matter how you look at it, they are game winners, they get their points worth very easly and are usefull against everything, from warmachines, to block units, cav and even characters riding monsters.

Kam
01-01-2008, 19:16
Well if you intend on your lord to not be protected and u dont care if he dies and u just want the dragon to do all the work then why not mount him on a moon dragon and turn the prince into an archmage, nearly the same defense but that character slot would do more damage....potentially.

Bobtheuseless
01-01-2008, 19:32
high elf characters on dragons die fast without the armour of celador and some praying to the dice gods, believe me i field them all the time :).

On the armour of celedor/ tremakadors gauntlets combo, i belive you can only choose one peice of magic armour per character and as such this wouldnt work, try the vambraces of defence instead.

4 RBT's would be devestating but 8 T3 6+sv wounds for 400pts of army? I wouldnt fancy it.

Also I suppose your fed up with being told this but you need a solid core of infanty, a thin line of ten swordmasters will be lucky to hold 20 plucky gobbos back. And again with the magic heavy list, T3, no saves, a lot of points.

Its a nice concept but it needs a lot of work, and I think you may need to learn to comprimise extremes so you dont ignore your essentials.

Bobtheuseless
01-01-2008, 19:34
And if you want cheese try a thick elven line of 100 spearelves in 5 units with FC for 1025pts. That would be very amusing back it up with a 15 strong unit of SM or WL and a dragon mage with some RBT's and GE to fill up the rest of the points and just sit back and laugh.

Fate
04-01-2008, 03:51
Kam ,it is true that a mage on a dragon might be a good way to field both a level 4 mage and a dragon, however the dragon is weaker (and yes, 1 attack and 1 strenght makes a whole lot of diference, specially if you find another dragon in the enemy army, also you guaranty that your dragon won't die from a single shot of a cannon (i play with empire, god knows how many times i did it XD). Also the second point and an essecial one continues to be the null stone, it means that when i charge the enemy he's dead! And even if i can't charge because he can fly for an example, my bolt throwers will make short work of him cause there will be no saves to save him. Either way, i win. If i'm not facing a combat army, i need not to worry about the prince, the dragon still does the trick when it hits the enemy lines (which is in the second turn). This said i'll once again say, i still like your item combo very much and will keep it as a second choice.

Bobtheuseless, what i just said above goes for you as well on regard of the lord.
The 4 bolt throwers are more than well protected, i know they don't die that easly, i have cannons with the empire and the only way they take it from me is in close combate, and yet with this army i know they'll have a much harder bone to chew before they can get them.
About the 10 line thin, well i belive you read about the dirty trick i play with them, also a unit of 20 gobbos charging it would be suicide, think of it like this. They have only 5 CR. Do you really think that with me striking first, hiting on a 3+ and wounding on a 2+ with 14 attacks that i can't make 6 wounds? It would be a slaughter!
Also i know this, extremes is what wins in warhammer... Well, i've been playing for 8 years and i never saw, even once, what most players here call a balanced army win a tournament.
Last but not least, i'd take you up on that list with 100 spearelves, either with empire which i have or ask my friend for his chaos army and for a change, be the bad guy. Truth is, spearelves don't have striking power... S3? It's not 15 attacks that will put fear in the heart of chosen chaos knights unit, or dragon ogres. The lord on the dragon will have a good laugh as well and if it's tezeench, well be prepared for 3 mages with 12 PD each turn and still the dragon. Oh and the banner of wrath for a bound spell. Trust me, that list is easy to run through with sheer striking power. Even empire does it, a couple steam tanks and a cavalary like i'm playing actually and i don't know how will you survive.

Bobtheuseless
04-01-2008, 21:15
I admire you for sticking by your dicisions fate however it seems although you have posted your list to show off and not to recieve feedback.
10 swordmasters may be devestating in math hammer, however bear in mind they would attract a lot of fire and if they muck up a turns striking they are T3 with heavy armour.
Also bear in mind whoever carries the null stone is still an elf mounted on a large target, he/she will be annihalated in a single volley, its a sad truth about fielding dragons, with the character dead you also run the risk of your dragon reacting badly to it. no one likes his 370pt creature of doom spending the rest of the battle guarding a corpse.
On the RBT's I never said it wouldnt be powerful, but whereas an opponent may ignore or put off dealing with one or two RBTS's he wouldnt ignore 4 and this would attract the attention a T3 light armoured crew doesnt need.
Just wondering if youd fielded this list or if its still just a concept? Id be interested to find out how youve dealt with it.

Semi_Bunny
05-01-2008, 00:33
I admire you for sticking by your dicisions fate however it seems although you have posted your list to show off and not to recieve feedback.

QFT there: This isn't debate club, it's a forum.

But on a different note I'd maybe try out a few different ideas that people have suggested just to see how you like them. I mean if you try an idea and lose once, its not the end of the world and IMO, losing is how you improve.

I suggest you give some of the ideas such as the eagles and dragon a test next time you play. If you try them and find they works well, then maybe you can incorporate it into your army to make it better. If you try them and they dont work, then dont use them. I find it always a more enjoyable experience to mix up my list a little bit each time I play.

-Bunny

Fate
05-01-2008, 03:30
About the show off coment, although it might seem like it, i posted it mostly because all the lists i saw here (except for one) were list which most armies i play against would grind them to dust in 4 turns and so i decided to put a couple lists to show what would be some good cheese with good winning chances specially for tournaments.

Now the bolt throwers are hard to kill with shooting, htey have enough range to stay out of harm's way and combat might find it hard to get to it.

The swordmaster, as much missile as they can draw, it's really ok, first cause if the enemy is up to some shooting, it means i have nearly nothing to worry about combat. If the enemy doesn't have shooting, then they can hold their possition. That was already studied before. In truth they are expendable, the only points i wish to keep alive is te mages and the bolt throwers. or the dragon and the bolt throwers, if i do that, then i can win the game with practiced ease.

It's much true, a dragon guarding a corpse would be... Bad to say the least, but i still belive it to be a worty risk, after all the null stone is worth it's weith in gold and the dragon even more.

I never fielded the list, tha's cause i don't have the miniatures yet, i hope to have the list ready and the end of the month or maybe beggining of the next... At least the magic list. I will of course bring you some feedback from the field and the list i played against of course.

I also try diferent ideas, it's just that eagles really aren't worth the points, not when you have other things much more important. For an example, an eagle might serve against a few armies but not all, and even then it's use is still limited while bolt throwers can be used against every single army and most time with devastating effects.
Having this considered why would i spend money on eagles (yes, money, not talking about points in a list)?

Also on a quick note, what does not attract attention in my army? The swordmasters do, the bolt throwers do, the mages do, the dragons do... Only the core filling archers don't... Not a big point in stating that this or that might be an arrow magnet. XD

Bobtheuseless
05-01-2008, 20:38
About the show off coment, although it might seem like it, i posted it mostly because all the lists i saw here (except for one) were list which most armies i play against would grind them to dust in 4 turns and so i decided to put a couple lists to show what would be some good cheese with good winning chances specially for tournaments.

Grinding the opponent into the dust is not the objective in warhammer, having a fun battle is.:p

Truth is it doesnt matter what we say if you want to field that list then its none of our business weather you do or dont.

If the list is as you say a tournament list id worry about its susceptability to artillery heavy opponents, which are the standard cheesy armies going about I find.

But again as I said earlier, as long as you (and to an extent your opponent) enjoy playing with this list then go for it.:)

Kam
06-01-2008, 00:30
Yes this is true.... but personally i have fun grinding my opponent into dust. but i guess thats just cuz im used to it over my years upon years of playing the game

Fate
08-01-2008, 02:41
True a game is for fun, but if i don't have a list which can win, then surely i won't have any fun.

I'm remembering a game with empire which i was having a lot of bad luck, my steam tanks were damaged, my cavalary had just fled the table (failed a test for charging a terror causing unit at 9 LD and then failed 2 recovery tests at 10 LD).
My cannons were dust to furies and screamers. Then one of my Stank got charged by the dragon and it stuck with 6 wounds. The other had 3 wounds, so with the game lost and with all the bad luck i was having i decided to trust in a ray of blind luck. I asked for 3 steam points for the first stank, and i needed to roll a 1 to save it (which i did) and asked for 4 poists for the other stank, needed a 3 or less (and rolled a 3) then the game just turned completly, his lord died, the dragon was off with 1 wound left. And he only had his furies and screamers left at that point. So a turn of blind luck simply turned a massacre from my opponent to a minor defeat.

However this wasn't an easy game for my opponent, i had 3 cannons and 2 other on the Stanks, the cavalary was more than a challenge and there was mages. Still i would have a clear massacre if i didn't had so much bad luck o my cannons.

What i mean with this is. Play to win or it won't even be fun.

Bobtheuseless
10-01-2008, 21:31
Obviously you and i differ in what makes us enjoy ourselves, but thats why people are differant. However i can see that you enjoy your cheese, 3 cannons and 2 steam tanks... oh yer that reeks of wensleydale

tehhelios
13-01-2008, 05:41
Only people that cant play use lists like this, dragons or full on mages.
Id say many high elf and wood elf lists would beat this aswell, even if you dont get bad magic phase it wouldnt be to hard to either kill your characters or shut you down enough.

or some other examples: beastmen with ambush, skink army with slann/mages bye.

AFoolProofPlan
13-01-2008, 06:10
About the show off coment, although it might seem like it, i posted it mostly because all the lists i saw here (except for one) were list which most armies i play against would grind them to dust in 4 turns and so i decided to put a couple lists to show what would be some good cheese with good winning chances specially for tournaments.

Not everyone here is out to make a Cheese list. Many of us make lists according to what style we want to play, or what kind of fluff we want to follow. Or as rare as it maybe, just because of conversion opportunities.
And I'm absolutely certainly not all of us require such list to have fun, or to "grind" others to dust as you would put it.