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View Full Version : TOMB KINGS! What do you do vs. Magic Heavy Armies?



Zoolander
05-12-2007, 04:21
Title says it all. Versus most melee armies, I don't have too much trouble except Khorne with dragon ogres (ST 7 - brrr). However, anyone that takes a magic heavy army, with loads of dispel scrolls simply shuts me down for two turns while he races across the board to smash me. Without the magic to get those charges off, I'm moving too slowly to get myself into decent positions, and end up losing more often than not. Most recently died to a slaanesh list because he had 5 dispel scrolls and 4 mages. I was totally crippled until turn 3 and then trying to fight off dragon ogres and chosen knights with "heavy" cavalry and skellies. I more than often play offensive lists, as I don't really care for the defensive ones. For this last fight, I made a total defensive list.

I usually run a TK + 3 LP, but this last fight I ran a LHP, LP, LP, TP. Even with the LHP and a casket, I was shut down every turn.

So what can be done about this? Suggestions? Or is this just our achilles heel?

Ymir
05-12-2007, 04:53
I've never -ever- faced such a situation with Tomb Kings myself, however, I guess my opponents doesn't use very magic-heavy armies, really. (I have problems with high toughness, good armor save-armies instead).

Anyhow, this is what I figure can be done:

Liche High Priest - absolutely equip him with the Plaques of Mighty Incantations. Then, he can reroll -every- single power dice roll, so 2x3D6 with rerolls - that's something indeed. Do NOT use a Tomb King.

Liche Priest - Equip with Staff of Ravening. It's only Power Level 4, but your opponent still has to expend power dice or scrolls to dispel it.

Equip someone with a Hieratic Jar.

Equip some unit with Banner of the Undying Legion, for even more stuff for the enemy to dispel. I guess it won't be all that useful the first rounds, though.

Also, remember that Tomb Kings has a dispel item - Brooch of the Great Desert - that you can equip a -prince- with.

Use the Casket of Souls.

Remember My Will Be Done.


However, if that still isn't enough, there's really nothing more that can be done. TK tactics that doesn't rely too much on magic are certainly viable though, even if I haven't ever fielded one myself. For instance, use the catapult in conjunction with the Casket, so you can force your enemy to come to you.

Or, you could use Settra ;) For example, field only him and units of 3 chariots without command. On 3000 points, you should have around -20- such units then. He will be able to cast My Will Be Done on -every one- of them regardless of range, plus he counts as a high priest to boot. That's 26 power dice a turn. I would like to see anyone dispel all that. You will only have 2 dispel dice of course, so the enemy mages will still be quite a problem.

Or...you could just tell your recent opponent that his list sucks. For it does, really. Spamming dispel scrolls in such a fashion doesn't seem fun at all.

forgottenlor
05-12-2007, 07:15
You could try playing a list that doesn't rely much on magic. I have seen a few that have only one or 2 liche priests, lots of chariots, carrion, and catapults. Basically nothing that really needs magic to be effective. You could go with a king and 2 princes (one with the broach of the desert) and 1 priest with 2 scrolls. If you're opponent invests so much in magic, maybe you can outfight him.

Lucky24/7
05-12-2007, 08:58
Or the Tk answer to everything A Tomb Scorpion (Yes if You Read My post, You should relise I love these guys.) But if you do get first turn and burrow two around set Scroll caddie wizards and come up and snap them in two with your oppent only getting 1 movement phase to run away ( This is working on the average that one (in theory) should come up) Hence thats only 1 maic phase stoped....

Another option is to take the catapult and casket and deploy on the bord edge there is no chance of running away. Then that makes no man land 30 inchs at least for him to cross under the catapult getting pumped with maic to let it fire twice and hence removing the scrolls from the game... By turn 3 ( this worked at the gt against an army with 6 dispel scrolls !) he will be out as you have spamed soo many spells, leaving you to my will be done and urgancy set cahrriot/usabti/scorpion all over the place mopping up. By turn 5 its all over as you have normall broke the back of your oppents army though shooting and combat, and have to jump the oppents table quaters and banners for masica :D

But hey thats how i play it... I Dont call it definsive.... Its more of anarmy that will punish people for making mistakes..... like taking 5 dispell scrolls !

DeathlessDraich
05-12-2007, 11:15
Khorne armies? The only opposition I massacred in the last tournament with TK. It is true that MR is detrimental to TK magic but to have 5 scrolls, the army would have
a) 3 Sorcerers or 3 Shamans.
b) They would have the Mark of Khorne to join units or wander on their own.

It is likely that they are Undivided and must join Undivided units to provide safety from sniping. Let us assume your incantations are negated in the first few rounds.

The tactics you adopt will have to be modified somewhat:

1) Use the fact that Frenzied units must charge and lure Chaos knights etc away with bowmen. In addition a flee response is not an option for Frenzied units.

2) A Frenzied character must charge out of the unit if it is within range of an enemy unit. Use a ranked up unit against them.
Watch out for non central Khorne characters and force them to charge *on their own* by positioning your unit within LOS and within range of the character only; but out of range of the unit they are with.

3) Dragon Ogres on their own will not stand up to a fully ranked up unit - 4/5 wounds on average opposing +4 static CR. You can hold them with a unit of skellies and flank charge them with a stronger unit - TGuard, Scorpion, Ushabti.

4) Beast herds far from the general have a low Ld and provide a nice target space for the SSC and Panic.
It is probable that Shamans will be in a Beast herd and will have to flee. Make sure your opponents tells you which scroll from which wizard is being used so that you can attempt to Panic the Shaman whose scrolls has not been used yet.
Panicking any other Frenzied unit e.g. Khorngors will be a bonus since they will lose their Frenzy.

5) Your chariots will be the fastest unit, in terms of charging, on the battlefield but use them to support your flee response or to establish a flank charge only. I used them to flank and destroy Chaos knights who were forced to charge a depleted bowmen unit.


Good luck

Cragspyder
05-12-2007, 15:56
Yep, as the others have said, try to include units (even a couple if you are trying to make a tourney list here) that can last on their own.

Large unit of Tomb Guard with Icon of Rakaph is one, Chariots with any character is another, and of course your Catapults can't be stopped in the Shooting phase :)

Also try to include at least one sacrificial unit and/or a march blocker to allow you a little flexiblity without using magic. 5 Light Horsemen or 1 Tomb Swarm are cheap and properly aligned can redirect a charging unit or force them to expose a flank, 3 Carrion is also cheap and can be used to march block until your opponent is out of Dispel Scrolls, or they can be sacrificed to redirect things as well.

Was this your opponent's normal Slaanesh list (5 dispel scrolls???) or did he take it specifically to beat you?

Zoolander
05-12-2007, 21:31
Liche High Priest - absolutely equip him with the Plaques of Mighty Incantations. Then, he can reroll -every- single power dice roll, so 2x3D6 with rerolls - that's something indeed. Do NOT use a Tomb King.

Liche Priest - Equip with Staff of Ravening. It's only Power Level 4, but your opponent still has to expend power dice or scrolls to dispel it.

Equip someone with a Hieratic Jar.

Equip some unit with Banner of the Undying Legion, for even more stuff for the enemy to dispel. I guess it won't be all that useful the first rounds, though.

Also, remember that Tomb Kings has a dispel item - Brooch of the Great Desert - that you can equip a -prince- with.

Use the Casket of Souls.

Remember My Will Be Done.

Yeah, I’ve tried that… that was actually my list from my last battle with the 5 dispel scrolls. I was still shut down because he also had plenty of dispel dice. Also, I absolutely love the Tomb King, so I always gravitate to him… but I can try the LHP again.


Or, you could use Settra For example, field only him and units of 3 chariots without command. On 3000 points, you should have around -20- such units then. He will be able to cast My Will Be Done on -every one- of them regardless of range, plus he counts as a high priest to boot. That's 26 power dice a turn. I would like to see anyone dispel all that. You will only have 2 dispel dice of course, so the enemy mages will still be quite a problem.

We never play with characters, except on very rare occasions, when it is agreed ahead of time. This was a random game at a store with some guy I didn’t even know. He was obviously testing his tourney list out.


Or...you could just tell your recent opponent that his list sucks. For it does, really. Spamming dispel scrolls in such a fashion doesn't seem fun at all.

I couldn’t agree more, but some people play like they’re in a tourney all the time. This was one of those guys. But thanks for your input!

Forgottenlor – This particular fight was Chaos Slaanesh. He had plenty of heavy hitting troops as well as mages. But I usually play a TK list and often get beat when someone can so easily shut down the magic phase.

Lucky24/7 – That is actually the list I prefer. A TK lead list with casket and SSC, letting them come to me for a bit and then hammering them. But Chaos tends to move quickly, especially Slaanesh. So by turn 2 I was in melee whether I wanted it or not. The other problem with the scorpion tactic is that he wasn’t dumb enough to have the running around by them selves. One was mounted with the knights. 2 were in 2 units of beastmen. Granted, if I did manage to get the tunneling off and sacrifice my scorpion on a charge to hopefully kill the shaman as I direct all my attacks at him, that may actually work.

Deathlessdraich – It was a Slaanesh army actually, not Khorne. Though Khorne has given me troubles too, when they are fast beast armies. And the MR makes the casket nearly useless. As for the DOs they can be avoided somewhat. I tried the old trick of holding them up with 25 skellies as a unit of heavy horsemen or ushapti flank them. They managed to kill both units with some bad rolling on my part, and slaughtered them in 2 turns. But it did hold them up.

Cragsypder – Yeah, I don’t have any tomb guard and probably won’t ever. I used them with then VC army for a bit, but they are just too slow, too easily avoided, and nobody wants to tangle with them. So I stopped using them for faster units. So I never collected them for TK, as the TK ones are even worse. Although the free reform banner is nice, I will admit. I may try a huge block of skellies though. They would be cheaper and able to hold stuff up until a TK in a chariot unit arrived. Or maybe some ushapti or heavy cav. No, he didn’t build that list for me – he didn’t even know me. As far as I can tell, it was his tourney list (or maybe not – it could have been his normal list!). Yes, I could employ more carrion to march block for a bit. That would certainly work.

Thanks for all the replies. I'm sure something will work!!

Ymir
05-12-2007, 21:59
Something should work, of course. I still feel some armies are always an uphill battle for Tomb Kings to face, though. I guess that's just the way the game has to work, with rules like fear for instance - you pay a lot of points for it, only to find it almost completely useless against, for example, daemonic legion and lizardmen lists. Still, I regularly fight Wood Elves, High Elves, Lizardmen, Orcs, Chaos (Slaanesh), and Daemonic Legion (Nurgle), and TK in general seems quite weak against at least three of those armies. (They absolutely rule versus Wood Elves though). I don't know, the Tomb Kings as an army are very well designed, but maybe they could use something of a power boost when the next army book comes out in...well, a decade.

Anyhow...good luck.

Zoolander
06-12-2007, 01:56
Thanks Ymir!! I agree with you, totally. Slaanesh armies and other forces immune to psychology can be a pain sometimes, and you can't use the old "I outnumber you, so you run away" trick. You actually have to beat them into submission. I love the army, but sometimes, I hate the inconsistent results. I know what to expect with my wood elves, chaos, high elves, brets and dark elves. TK just depends on the enemy, and I never know what's gonna happen.

Well, as far as upgrades, the TKs will probably get the "super" fear that VCs are getting in Spring. Hopefully, they will look at the TK book after Chaos in 2008, but I'm not holding my breath. I think with some changes to the magic to make it more reliable, they will become a very fun and balanced army.

txamil
06-12-2007, 03:17
Can you take DoW at your gaming club?

Zoolander
06-12-2007, 19:26
Can you take DoW at your gaming club?

I sure can, but hate the "fluff" part of it, so I never do. I mean, come on - who in his right mind would side with an undead legion? They cause fear on sight - the mercenaries they *could* hire would be the bravest in the land and cost more than King Tut's crown, and certainly wouldn't be worth it. But it is just a game afterall.


But besides that, I just don't like the practice. Each army has inherent strengths and weaknesses that keep everything "balanced"... per se... For example, Khorne armies have no ranged attacks or war machines (well... except the man-eating one, but we'll ignore that for now). By buying a bunch of cannons, it is my opinion that it offsets this "balance".

Besides... that would mean buying more $50 miniatures. Ew...

javaguru
07-12-2007, 22:26
I would just go low magic.
Chariots
Carrion
Tomb swarms
Tomb scorpions

Maybe give your tomb king the spear of antarhak