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junglesnake
05-12-2007, 18:23
OK I would like to state here that I may be miles behind on this one - no surprise to me really!

But you can no longer mail order anything in the back-catologue unless it is on the classic section on the GW website.

According to the store staff HQ have melted down the already cast figures and re-used the metal. And they have destroyed the old moulds.

According to them this is because of storage issues etc.

This made me sad. Oh well onwards and somewhere I guess!

However my local store is also a trial store in that they are GW's baby for marketing ideas. One of which is to have free mail order to the store. The idea for this so I am informed is so that the smaller stores don't have to stock everything and can then order in things on an individual basis.

I like the idea of this in some ways as some stores don't have the space to stock everything. It also means a little bit of forward planning but I don't think that will be a problem for most people - it would certainly save GW some money and also perhaps give them a more immediate picture of the demand on certain stock lines.

RevEv
05-12-2007, 18:27
Free orders to the store is not new - I was doing it ten years ago when I worked at a store.

As for the rest - not news. It was even flagged up in WD by none other than Rick Priestley.

boogle
05-12-2007, 19:04
the Free Delivery to the store was for orders over £25, a £2 charge was for orders under that, it seems they have waived that £2 charge now, but not really told anyone

floyd pinkerton
05-12-2007, 19:06
We havent had it for a moth or two now i believe :confused:

there's even a sign up on the notice board

Gaebriel
05-12-2007, 19:08
Yup, over here we were told, we could only order metal parts that have a similar plastic counterpart (eg old and new Terminators) until the end of January, then they are gone...

Apart from the obvious lack of metal, with most of the newer bits coming on sprues, the glory days of GW's bitz-service are gone. No "if it was ever cast we may find it for you" anymore :(

boogle
05-12-2007, 19:12
yep and then sprues are slowly being made harder to order, looks like Ebay is the best place to buy full models for parts now

Arkzein
05-12-2007, 19:23
Admittledly I've been in and out of the hobby (mostly out) for the last few years but rather miffed to hear this about this even if it's old news. Most of my favourite models are the old metals and, rather than stocking up with tons of them, I've always been happy enough in the knowledge that with a bit of hunting I can get the part numbers and order bits and bobs I need for my next project.

I'm guess it'll send me and others off to ebay, or hopefully some of the bits services cropping up to make things a bit easier. I would have thought with the tiny cost of materials it would be profitable still to cast up a batch when a certain number of orders were reached but I guess not. The real shocker is destoying old moulds, burning their bridges. Can't complain too much, GW is hardly the hobby centred entity it once was and I imagine it's going this way for effiency savings or some such but still can't help feeling a bit sad and nostalgic. (Pouring over those annuals and reading off your bits orders to a troll for your next wild conversion before the rise of the net is something I'm sure a lot of us will recall).

Just as an aside wasn't it previously possible to search the GW site using part numbers for some models that weren't in the classics section specifically? (I know it was possible with the old mid 90s metal Chaos space marines at least, which weren't in the classic part of their site) wonder if those are still avilable, one would assume so.

twisted_mentat
06-12-2007, 03:15
Let me ask you this, which seems better to you.

"I want to make a unit of noise marines, i'll need bit W, X, Y and Z.


Or

" I want to make a unit of noise marines! I'll get the Noise marine blister from Direct!". Oh yea, the direct blisters, WILL COST less than getting the parts individually.

Thats the Change. Also, the bits that are dissapearing are ones that very very few people bought. Why have boxes of Bits laying around that no one buys, when that space could be used to have more of the popular ones. How many Scraplauncha side 2s do you think they sell? Probably none.

I'm just really sick of the "GW RAPED MY MOM" Kind of posts about it.

Arkzein
06-12-2007, 04:01
*laughs* Must say that's the first time anyone has ever jumped on my back of all people for being anti-GW. Believed the above was rather balanced in saying that I thought it would still be profitable to keep around some of the less ordered bits (as the cost of materials is low, as is the sotrage space required, though given the scale GW is working on and their current position perhaps it was a luxury they can no longer afford) but seems it isn't the case and most of what is being lost is nostalgia value. (The classics range is most likely those bits that are still selling well after all)

To go down the road of what I'm thinking it is actually more along the lines of the first part, even if the 2nd is the majority. Getting very specific I don't like the current plastics too much for certain models and buy old metal bits from across the chaos (and other) ranges to make a noise marine (Or whatever piece I'm currently working on, I think daemonettes are the only stock mini I own, I would buy said blister and then further look for some more bits for it) and the cost really isn't an issue, the GW bits service was simply very handy (and still is with a vast current range too). More generally I just felt comfortable in the knowledge that if I recalled something I'd like to use for a project I could have it in a few clicks. Honestly not *overly* fussed as I said previously. It most likely was a business decision that will benefit more than the few of those out there like myself. (can't please all of the people all of the time after all).

The only difference it will make to me personally is taking more time to hunt out those parts I'm looking for be it from bits services or ebay, and likely making it more expensive (buying a whole model for one part and stripping it of paint). Likely GW are saving money, bits providers are making a profit and all I'm out is a bit of time.

Not as if it's entirely new either, old ranges get replaced every so often. I have old late 80s/early 90s models that have been out of production for quite some time as well and again are just nostalgia value. Just the destruction of moulds and change in policy that raised one of my eyebrows.

And yes, I'm not fond of "GW Raped my Mom" either thanks...

ChaosMaster
06-12-2007, 04:07
Yeah, the "I hate GW" type of posts over every little change certainly get to be a bit much and they are usually irrational or at least ill-thought out. Legitimate complaints with genuine improvement in mind are all too rare.

Yes, it's annoying that the bits service is down for a while as it gets revised, but the coming system will hopefully be much better for the company and largely better one would hope for customers as well, with new conversion packs and other new direct-only items. There's a preview about it in the upcoming White Dwarf, the one with the new Orks on the cover. As for discontinuing items that don't sell well, all companies do that and it's just bad luck if those items happen to be a personal favorite. It's not realistic to expect the company to try and please everyone all the time by never discontinuing any items ever. There are plenty of people still annoyed about Squats, but most of us have gotten over it by now.

Oh, and no, I don't work for GW and never have and yes, I do sometimes dislike changes or company policies by GW that seem ill-considered. But as customers and fans of GW's products, let's try and help them change constructively in a way that ensures the company's health while also ensuring their products meet our needs. These two things, company profits and meeting customer needs are surely linked.

twisted_mentat
06-12-2007, 05:23
Well, thats what i was getting at. It was just fustrating to see how many "the sky is falling" kind of posts about this subject.

The Moulds weren't destroyed by anything more that time, if you are to believe the offical story. Though people tend to be a litte tinfoiled hat about this stuff.

As was said, every company on earth discontinues stuff all the time. Its a fact of life. The really heavy converters are a very small part of the community.

Theres legitmate critism out there, but theres so much kneejerk insanity fist shaking that out there.

Does anyone remember the post from the Tau preview thread all those year ago the post where someone said, in all honesty "if they didn't waste their time with Tau, we'd of gotten Squats back!".

The thing is, the majority of plastic bits on sprues will fill in the holes lost by the metal bits. I know that Arkzein you said you don't like the plastics, but no offense, but your one guy, and theres very likely only a handful of people who feel the same as you. GW had made a business decision not to cater as much to your desires, but to those of the larger community.

I've been playing GW stuff for something around 17 years and experainced every change. I'm sure if the internet had been as widespread when they switched from led to white metal, there would be just as much worse "gw raped my dog!" kind of posts online.

Jedi152
06-12-2007, 06:36
Ah, i remember when they would get you pretty much anything GW has ever made (except licence stuff) - if they were out of stock they would cast it while you waited.

But those day's couldn't go on. With the amount of models now being produced something had to give. I don't mind that much to be honest, i've got most of what i wanted, except a few 5th ed. Bretonnian bits and a few Empire heroes.

I hope the moulds haven't been destroyed. They can sell them to Foundry or somewhere to produce. Or start a new division, GW Classic! :p

OrlyggJafnakol
06-12-2007, 06:44
I hope the moulds haven't been destroyed. They can sell them to Foundry or somewhere to produce. Or start a new division, GW Classic! :p

If storage space was a premium then I would expect this to occur. The BBC destroyed many episodes of Dr Who back in the day because 'there wasn't the space' and it was believed they had no value.

I am only a little sad at the demise of the once might mail order because in my experience 9 out or 10 times eBay was cheaper!

GW classic is a good idea mind...

Gaebriel
06-12-2007, 09:40
Well, I am feeling sad about GW's plastic-for-metal-policy, I am feeling sad about their bits-policies, I am feeling sad that I will not be able to finish my projects, and I will voice that. If you can't handle a little controversy in GW-lala-land, that's your problem not mine...

Not every customer is happy with the production changes - those unhappy are in the minority, that's true. But that won't stop me voicing my feelings about it - it's part of dealing with it.

I understand GW has to change things, I understand GW thinks they have to make everything plastic, I understand they will fare much better not offering the same bits-variety at their current scale. That doesn't mean I have to like it.

Kor Phaeron
06-12-2007, 10:39
How bad is this? I've visited their website and found that they only really offer current models and very small range of selected classics.

Is it possible to order a wider range of stuff in a GW store and do they still produce catalogues that allow bit orders. For example, I want to order the back banner from an old beastman lord (the one which is the flayed skin of a human). I can't find this on their site though, is there another way to get this bit?

I'm returning to the hobby after a significant layoff and so sorry if this is stuff covered elsewhere.

**Edit** I found the piece I want but my question still stands but substitute the back banner for other cool older stuff!

OrlyggJafnakol
06-12-2007, 10:43
I'd not thought of that... Has this decision made all of the collector's edition catalogues obsolete?

Chris_Tzeentch
06-12-2007, 11:05
Conversions just got considerably more difficult to carry out or expensive.

Mind you, there will be tons of eBay people selling bits to make some money out of the demise of this particular service.

ChaosMaster
06-12-2007, 13:56
Does anyone remember the post from the Tau preview thread all those year ago the post where someone said, in all honesty "if they didn't waste their time with Tau, we'd of gotten Squats back!".
We could have gotten Squats back! Now I'm upset! Grrrr.... :rolleyes: LOL.

Crimson Reaver
06-12-2007, 14:42
I'd not thought of that... Has this decision made all of the collector's edition catalogues obsolete?

I believe so, my local store staff actually gave me the Forces of the Inquisiton Book and told me that it was now basically worthless, but I could have it for the pretty conversions (which I now can't do as they don't sell the bitz! :cries:)

ChaosMaster
06-12-2007, 16:04
I'd not thought of that... Has this decision made all of the collector's edition catalogues obsolete?
One would think so, but they are still selling the 2006-2007 catalogue:
http://store.us.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.us?do=List_Models&code=305239&orignav=305239&GameNav=305239

reds8n
06-12-2007, 17:53
I think there's a big phonebook thickness catalogue coming next year.

In what seems a daft move to me I've heard it's coming out in January, thus rendered OOD as soon as the next big release rolls out.

Unless they plan on releasing this catalogue including releases for the first 3 months of the year ?

Crazy Harborc
07-12-2007, 00:49
Melted down already cast metal parts/minies.......Pure genius, great way to make money selling minies.:rolleyes: Wonder what the stockholders would think if they knew?

Say....IF the molds are destroyed as well.......Is the "IP" of those minies still protected, illegal to duplicate? I'm not trying to stir the stick. i really do wonder and would like to know.;)

spaint2k
07-12-2007, 04:27
Well, I am feeling sad about GW's plastic-for-metal-policy, I am feeling sad about their bits-policies, I am feeling sad that I will not be able to finish my projects, and I will voice that. If you can't handle a little controversy in GW-lala-land, that's your problem not mine...

Not every customer is happy with the production changes - those unhappy are in the minority, that's true. But that won't stop me voicing my feelings about it - it's part of dealing with it.

I understand GW has to change things, I understand GW thinks they have to make everything plastic, I understand they will fare much better not offering the same bits-variety at their current scale. That doesn't mean I have to like it.

I think Gaebriel lives in the same world I do.

Steve

twisted_mentat
07-12-2007, 05:07
Well, theres nothing wrong with not liking the changes. Its very clear that the changes will upset people, but as was said, they're in the minority. Its not a very sound buisness practice to cater to the minority.

I work in the Music industry in Canada, and one of the big record store chains, Sam the Record Man, closed its two final stores last yea. There were many factors that caused the closure, but one of them is that they attempted to capture the nitch music market, but doing it on a large scale. If you spend all your time stocking local artists, obscure jazz and blues Cds, and don't stock the crap people buy, you're going to loose money if you're a large operation.

It works on the small scare because a store about the size of my apartment (which is very small) can get away with that, but one the size of a 3 story family home, can't.

You don't have it like it, i still fume at the lost of the cavalry hammer for white wolves (:confused:Great weapons!!!!:mad:), but i sucked it up and adjusted my empire army accordingly.

Its just the kneejerk, bollix insane responses that really bug me. Just way too much of the "GW did X JUST to attack me arrrgh!".

I heard a rumor actually today that many of the new direct only boxes will have random stuff or give you a choice. Like the steel legion "box" will give you a choice of choosing the rocket launcher, las cannon or heavy bolter as the HW. Also, the troopers you'll get in it will be randomized, so you won't end up with the exact number of the exact same models.

Now i like THAT idea.

As for catalog, ever year the catalog becomes out of date pretty quickly. Though i'm pretty sure it will have all the new ork stuff in it. Though when the new vampires come out, and then dark eldar/space wolves/what ever the next army is released... oh well.

Arkzein
07-12-2007, 06:26
Just as a quick aside, the catalog/annual is still a US only thing isn't it? I recall having looked at getting it sent here sometime last year but didn't bother when the postage came out a lot more than the book itself.

RevEv
07-12-2007, 12:41
Melted down already cast metal parts/minies.......Pure genius, great way to make money selling minies.:rolleyes: Wonder what the stockholders would think if they knew?

Say....IF the molds are destroyed as well.......Is the "IP" of those minies still protected, illegal to duplicate? I'm not trying to stir the stick. i really do wonder and would like to know.;)

IF the reason for taking the models out of mail order is for space saving THEN it would make perfect sense... space costs money as much as melting the models down, perhaps more (I don't have comparative figures to hand).

Of one thing I'm certain. Contrary to popular belief GW are not removing these models to spite their customers, they are removing them because, in many cases (and in their opinion) there are better models available and/or the model is now obselete.

It's common practise even with collectors - eg I have the classic Ravenwing Landspeeder in my store cupboard, still in its box with cellophane intact. I will not be making it up because I rate the plastic models as better models, easier to make, and less likely to fall apart.

GW gave plenty of warning that mail order was going to change and that many classic models were going to be deleted/ made unavailable for a while, so I cannot see why people are bleating so much over something that they were warned about in advance....

Oh sorry, I forgot, it's a change in business practise by big, bad GW - whining about it is obligatory.:rolleyes:

Gaebriel
07-12-2007, 16:00
...
GW gave plenty of warning that mail order was going to change and that many classic models were going to be deleted/ made unavailable for a while, so I cannot see why people are bleating so much over something that they were warned about in advance....

Oh sorry, I forgot, it's a change in business practise by big, bad GW - whining about it is obligatory.:rolleyes:
GW started cleaning out their archive section back in the summer of 2005 without a warning - from one week to another 75% of bits from the classic range were gone. Even with a warning, I wouldn't have had the chance to buy my backlist of around €2,500 in a couple of months.

But I guess that's how it feels when one falls through the gaps after a shift in market target...

lord_blackfang
07-12-2007, 16:13
Melted down already cast metal parts/minies.......Pure genius, great way to make money selling minies.:rolleyes: Wonder what the stockholders would think if they knew?


Oh yeah, I'm sure they melted down a bunch of models that were selling really well... and yet were for some reason piling up in the warehouses for years :eyebrows:

Agrip. Varenus Denter
07-12-2007, 16:17
Just as a quick aside, the catalog/annual is still a US only thing isn't it? I recall having looked at getting it sent here sometime last year but didn't bother when the postage came out a lot more than the book itself.

No, not for the regular catalog - not at all! Norway, Sweden and Denmark share one, The UK gets their own, the US gets their own, Germany gets their own, and I think that Poland and France have their own versions as well. Canada, too?

There is also an enormous one, which may be what you meant and I just misunderstood - the Complete GW Catalog and Hobby Reference, which is a great hardcover version of everything, and comes out every 2 years. That's the US-only one.

junglesnake
07-12-2007, 17:24
For those that are over-protective of their hobby -

I don't think change is wrong nessisarily, nor do I think that questioning change is wrong. But suggesting that we allow change to happen with-out questioning it, is.

I don't think that it is an overly bad thing in the long run, I am sure that there are many miniatures they had kicking around that made no sence to keep. Some Rogue trader stuff for example, although nice minis not only lack detail in some cases but are almost a completely different scale.

Then you have the issue of the metal miniatures with plastic arms. With marines, for example, it makes logical sence to keep the classic miniatures that the new arm sprues can still be combined with. There seems little point in still supplying the old arms and weapons which will prevent them from mixing in with the newer miniatures - that and ebay is full of all the old plastics where people have stripped them and replaced with new stuff!

I guess what I don't like is that some ranges that offered people more choice are gone. Chaos fantasy and 40k are a good example of this.

Not a bad thing - a sad thing which I believe I wrote in my first post.

My advice - don't be obsessive about anything but the most important things in life, GW doesn't need protecting and challenging people who have witnessed several changes in the last decade and suggesting that we don't mention it is not the best move . . . .

Emperor's Grace
07-12-2007, 18:20
Say....IF the molds are destroyed as well.......Is the "IP" of those minies still protected, illegal to duplicate? I'm not trying to stir the stick. i really do wonder and would like to know.;)

Their IP is their IP regardless of the presence/abscence of the molds.

So, yes, still illegal.

Horus84
07-12-2007, 18:46
The updated mail order range is going to be alot better for all parties concerned. Current MO boost 20,000 + range of bitz/ models - a obscene amount of back cataloge ranging over 30 years. This is being silmed down for, what I hope is many obvious reasons. All the bitz that are being removed are the ones that just don't sell often enough. The range that will be left is one that is clearer to understand and use. Also the new packaged units will be cheaper than current prices plus each model/bit will have an indivdual code, rather that order and get a random model.

So the cataolge 2008.
1. 400 page monster
2. full colour spreads - plus close up detail pics
3. contain full range upto feb 2008 - updated next in dec 2008
4. layed out in codex/ armies section i.e. troops, hq etc..
5. there will a model to represent every unit for all systems
6. lots of upgrade packs for various things e.g. ork stormboyz to siege kits
7. lots of collectors models
8. Direct only sculpts and diorhmas.

Arkzein
07-12-2007, 19:13
There is also an enormous one, which may be what you meant and I just misunderstood - the Complete GW Catalog and Hobby Reference, which is a great hardcover version of everything, and comes out every 2 years. That's the US-only one.

Aye that's the one, been a while since I read up on it and I think the order numbers were different in the US, but still it just would be useful to have to hand something showing every part available one could pour over when looking for bits and pieces to personalise a project. I think the sheer size of it was the reason postage was obscene.

I seem to recall the UK having them in the Mid 90s, current catalogs aren't much use. (or so I recall around the time I was looking for one last year)

spaint2k
08-12-2007, 05:26
The updated mail order range is going to be alot better for all parties concerned.

Of all possible contributions to this discussion, this is the most patronizing. You've regurgitated the company line and made it sound as if you genuinely believe it. The updated mail order range obviously isn't better for the people who want things that are no longer available. While the rationale for company health is obvious, there's no harm in bemoaning the end of something good.

Citadel's archive was just that - an archive. Imagine if the library placed most of its books in a locked vault where no one could see them - just because they were rarely read. It'd be better (cheaper) for the library (and probably the books too), but it wouldn't be better for the public.



Current MO boost 20,000 + range of bitz/ models - a obscene amount of back cataloge ranging over 30 years. This is being silmed down for, what I hope is many obvious reasons. All the bitz that are being removed are the ones that just don't sell often enough. The range that will be left is one that is clearer to understand and use.

The obvious corollary being that the average punter is too stupid to use the system that had been in place previously. :rolleyes:



Also the new packaged units will be cheaper than current prices plus each model/bit will have an indivdual code, rather that order and get a random model.


The first half (regarding price) is pure hyperbole with no evidence to back it up. Speaking of prices, the US bits have been a lot cheaper than UK bits for a long time. God knows why.

The second half is a return to how things were. All models had individual package codes until a few years ago. It's hardly surprising that the new "improved" "random figure from a choice of two, three or four" wasn't popular among web-purchasers. Who the hell wants to buy random figures?



So the cataolge 2008.
1. 400 page monster
2. full colour spreads - plus close up detail pics
3. contain full range upto feb 2008 - updated next in dec 2008
4. layed out in codex/ armies section i.e. troops, hq etc..
5. there will a model to represent every unit for all systems
6. lots of upgrade packs for various things e.g. ork stormboyz to siege kits
7. lots of collectors models
8. Direct only sculpts and diorhmas.

Nothing special about any of this except number 5, which I might add, is more of a hope and an assumption than stated fact. And I think it's more than a little ridiculous that GW still thinks people should pay for catalogues which rapidly become hopelessly obsolete.

Steve

Edmund
08-12-2007, 13:09
Dear Twisted Mentat


I'm just really sick of the "GW RAPED MY MOM" Kind of posts about it

Theres legitmate critism out there, but theres so much kneejerk insanity fist shaking that out there.

You are so right brother.:wtf:

All them ignorant bastards who want value for money, are attached to their old figures and even expect that their concerns should be treated with respect.

To hell with them, even if their Mum's (proper English spelling here), and Dogs too, haven’t been raped by GW well they sure ought to be.:confused:

Edmund

junglesnake
08-12-2007, 17:28
Dear Twisted Mentat

.

You are so right brother.:wtf:

All them ignorant bastards who want value for money, are attached to their old figures and even expect that their concerns should be treated with respect.

To hell with them, even if their Mum's (proper English spelling here), and Dogs too, haven’t been raped by GW well they sure ought to be.:confused:

Edmund

I like this post!

Both my 40k armies and fantasy armies include to some extent models from the last 15 years. And believe it or not it adds character.

My Dark Angels have an old Veteran Captain model as a srgt, I always liked the model and painted in the same style with a modern back-pack you would be hard pushed to identify him as any different to the new models.

With my fantasy Orcs a couple of old Orcs now too small to be Orcs have been downgraded to goblin bosses. The old one pose goblins have been hacked and slashed and combined with new parts to make a rather nice spear unit.

As you can see on my modeling post I am currently trying to complete a project of turning an old razorback into one with a more modern hint and a venerable look.

I don't think this is bad, sure isn't good for GW maybe, but then why do I want to fork out another £20 odd for a tank that I already have. Chances are I will at some point in the future but at the moment I am happy.

But then I don't "knee-jerk react" by going out there and buying a new army every time an Army book/codex is released.

And yes I am sad and will say so.

selfconstrukt
08-12-2007, 18:20
I hope the moulds haven't been destroyed. They can sell them to Foundry or somewhere to produce. Or start a new division, GW Classic! :p

Only the moulds were destroyed, the masters are still intact, packed in crates in a room next to the mould room. Actually, I think they are separated in two different rooms now.

They can always pull the masters and press a new mold with those, and re-release the models at any time they want.

The reason they are discontinuing those models is making mould and casting the metal can, in most cases, cost 10x to 20x the sale cost of the model, so GW winds up losing a HUGE amount of money off the older ranges, since on average they only sell 1-3 of each of those models per year.

And I am not referring to the retail cost of the model, since the Manufacturing division does not make their money from the retail sale, they have a different cost, that the Sales Div. reimburses them for every time a model is cast, packed and shipped to the customer. its the same with box sets and everything else.

So it makes sense to put a plug in that leak, since there was an estimated £22,000 loss at one time associated with the older ranges.

Horus84
08-12-2007, 20:37
Of all possible contributions to this discussion, this is the most patronizing. You've regurgitated the company line and made it sound as if you genuinely believe it. The updated mail order range obviously isn't better for the people who want things that are no longer available. While the rationale for company health is obvious, there's no harm in bemoaning the end of something good.

Citadel's archive was just that - an archive. Imagine if the library placed most of its books in a locked vault where no one could see them - just because they were rarely read. It'd be better (cheaper) for the library (and probably the books too), but it wouldn't be better for the public.



The obvious corollary being that the average punter is too stupid to use the system that had been in place previously. :rolleyes:



The first half (regarding price) is pure hyperbole with no evidence to back it up. Speaking of prices, the US bits have been a lot cheaper than UK bits for a long time. God knows why.

The second half is a return to how things were. All models had individual package codes until a few years ago. It's hardly surprising that the new "improved" "random figure from a choice of two, three or four" wasn't popular among web-purchasers. Who the hell wants to buy random figures?



Nothing special about any of this except number 5, which I might add, is more of a hope and an assumption than stated fact. And I think it's more than a little ridiculous that GW still thinks people should pay for catalogues which rapidly become hopelessly obsolete.

Steve

Oh how thankyou for explaining how I am every so wrong in both my opionions and facts read from GW. I now feel much more enlighten to the truth of the underhanded dealings of the evil empire that is Games Workshop or the "devil plc"

It is helpful crisitisms and comment such as yours that always makes warseer such a nice, cheerful and open minded forum for Wargaming hobbies and namly GW.

P.S. Public libraries do have a hugh archive of books that are just store in basments etc... that are not open to the general public. There are 1000's of books and papers store that you have to apply to the government to have access too. Simiarly librarys do not purchase everybook published for the public to read - they select the ones thay want and this even differs from library to library.


Anyway..

The info I presented was what I was shown at my local store, on friday and my opionion stands. Another bit of info (not 100% certain) was that the managers at their national meeting were lead to belive that the MO department was even looking at being able to order a certain half of frame e.g. loota section of the new loota/burna frame - which would be great.

I will add this, I am acutally surprised that GW have kept the back catalogue of bitz, ranging 30 years, that they have created, for this long. It is very rare that any company does - in fact other no other companiescome to mind. You would not expect say nintendo or sega to keep a back catalogue of the're previous systems and games or a Austin Martin to keep producing the DB4 or 5. It is just unreasonable to expect it from any company.

spaint2k
08-12-2007, 21:16
Oh how thankyou for explaining how I am every so wrong in both my opionions and facts read from GW. I now feel much more enlighten to the truth of the underhanded dealings of the evil empire that is Games Workshop or the "devil plc"


No-one in this thread has called GW evil or bad.

You can't say it's a FACT that everyone benefits from the removal of the back-catalogue, because the people who wanted the bits that are no longer available don't benefit.

And you can't quote a GW propaganda flyer as fact either - those things are likely to change as company policy changes.

You still haven't produced any proof of how you know new prices will be cheaper.



It is helpful crisitisms and comment such as yours that always makes warseer such a nice, cheerful and open minded forum for Wargaming hobbies and namly GW.


I was merely pointing out that you regurgitated the company line, which in typical business-like Orwellian doublespeak made a big deal out of all the "new" advantages like catalogues and colour pictures and direct-only sculpts when in fact we have these things to begin with.

So there'll be more direct-only sculpts... Um... So what?



P.S. Public libraries do have a hugh archive of books that are just store in basments etc... that are not open to the general public. There are 1000's of books and papers store that you have to apply to the government to have access too. Simiarly librarys do not purchase everybook published for the public to read - they select the ones thay want and this even differs from library to library.


Call it a bad example, then.



Anyway..

The info I presented was what I was shown at my local store, on friday and my opionion stands. Another bit of info (not 100% certain) was that the managers at their national meeting were lead to belive that the MO department was even looking at being able to order a certain half of frame e.g. loota section of the new loota/burna frame - which would be great.


It would be great, but it would also be highly surprising.



I will add this, I am acutally surprised that GW have kept the back catalogue of bitz, ranging 30 years, that they have created, for this long. It is very rare that any company does - in fact other no other companiescome to mind. You would not expect say nintendo or sega to keep a back catalogue of the're previous systems and games or a Austin Martin to keep producing the DB4 or 5. It is just unreasonable to expect it from any company.

They didn't keep the back-catalogue for all 30 years. Bits and pieces regularly and quietly disappeared with no fanfare over the years. There have been several large purges in the past, one of which occurred after a move when stuff went missing, and another occurred when employees were ordered to throw moulds into the trash.

Anyway, as for the rest of your point, it was never about other companies. It was about Games Workshop and what makes them special. Or rather, it was about how Games Workshop has now become less special than it was before. If that's a cause for celebration and joy I must be smoking crack.

Steve

Horus84
08-12-2007, 22:18
No-one in this thread has called GW evil or bad.

no but it was certinally implied in several replies.


You can't say it's a FACT that everyone benefits from the removal of the back-catalogue, because the people who wanted the bits that are no longer available don't benefit.

I never stated that as fact that was an personal "opinion". Yes it is going to be fraustrating - hey there are parts that I have always liked that will go. But, how many of the compoents being removed are people going 'hey why?' at because they are going or because they acutally bought them regularly (say 3 or 4 times a year)


And you can't quote a GW propaganda flyer as fact either - those things are likely to change as company policy changes.

true enough but they are fact now as policy is now - you can't second guess future policy changes. That's like saying a bottle of coke say 10% less sugar is not fact because in the future they change again.


You still haven't produced any proof of how you know new prices will be cheaper.

no, you will just have to trust on that front - however it is usually illegal to advertise things like this



I was merely pointing out that you regurgitated the company line, which in typical business-like Orwellian doublespeak made a big deal out of all the "new" advantages like catalogues and colour pictures and direct-only sculpts when in fact we have these things to begin with.

and there is me thinking I would be helpfull and summerise what is chaging and what is being offered



It would be great, but it would also be highly surprising.

yes is would




They didn't keep the back-catalogue for all 30 years. Bits and pieces regularly and quietly disappeared with no fanfare over the years. There have been several large purges in the past, one of which occurred after a move when stuff went missing, and another occurred when employees were ordered to throw moulds into the trash.

well yes, but the quanty of compoents available is still staggering. Plus the key word I used was 'ranging' - meaning over not all


Anyway, as for the rest of your point, it was never about other companies. It was about Games Workshop and what makes them special. Or rather, it was about how Games Workshop has now become less special than it was before. If that's a cause for celebration and joy I must be smoking crack.

How has GW become less speacial? Because more people collect? Because the wargaming is acepted by many more varied people than 15 years ago? Because the less of a stigma attached to wargaming? Gosh, is GW and wargaming not allowed to be popular. Personally I find my hobby special because it is fun, relaxing and I can enjoy it and have a laugh with my friends. Not because they have a hugh Mail Order back catalogue

selfconstrukt
08-12-2007, 22:49
They didn't keep the back-catalogue for all 30 years. Bits and pieces regularly and quietly disappeared with no fanfare over the years. There have been several large purges in the past, one of which occurred after a move when stuff went missing, and another occurred when employees were ordered to throw moulds into the trash.Steve

Like in Baltimore when they purged the moulds before going to Memphis. They filled 2 construction-sized dumpsters, one for the top half, one for the bottom.

It sounds like you guys would have a heart attack if you found out what was tossed! The entire Man o War range, Epic, Space Fleet etc. Thousands of unreleased models for Mighty Empires, Man o War, Necromunda, WFB, W40K etc.

It broke my heart to see all those go, honestly, I shed tears...

Horus84
08-12-2007, 23:02
you have to remeber that since the early 90's the uk head office have been keeping the oringinal scuplts in safe storeage - as another poster has already commented on. So the destruction of moulds is nothing something that has to be done for storeage sake. New moulds cost next to nothing for gw to re-done.

Nephilim of Sin
08-12-2007, 23:11
So there'll be more direct-only sculpts... Um... So what?

Well, the same could be said about the bitz that were hardly used, or ordered. Note, I for one hate the fact that they are gone, but I also know that my little contribution was not enough to keep it going. The Direct Only Models, on the other hand, I will buy (well, not all of them...)




They didn't keep the back-catalogue for all 30 years. Bits and pieces regularly and quietly disappeared with no fanfare over the years. There have been several large purges in the past, one of which occurred after a move when stuff went missing, and another occurred when employees were ordered to throw moulds into the trash.

Anyway, as for the rest of your point, it was never about other companies. It was about Games Workshop and what makes them special. Or rather, it was about how Games Workshop has now become less special than it was before. If that's a cause for celebration and joy I must be smoking crack.
Steve


Actually, no offense, but those two paragraphs are kinda contradicting. The fact that so many models (at least in the states) have disapeared for quite some time shows they have been "less special" on other occassions. I know I waited quite a long time before I could finally get my Arkhan the Black, because it had disapeared. And for a while here, there were rather large holes in the bitz inventory on what are now "classic" models.

I agree this is a move that I do not like, but I am also willing to ride it through.

selfconstrukt
08-12-2007, 23:39
you have to remeber that since the early 90's the uk head office have been keeping the oringinal scuplts in safe storeage - as another poster has already commented on...New moulds cost next to nothing for gw to re-done.

Not entirely accurate. The original sculpts are usually given back to the sculptor, and most of the time suffer considerable "damage" during the mastering process although this can vary depending on who makes the RTV master mould and how well-made the original is.

GW has a library of these things:

1) RTV clear silicon master moulds-used to cast resin masters
2) Silicone (and older organic rubber) master moulds-used to cast metal masters for production mould making.
3) Small cardboard boxes, each one has a different code's metal and resin masters stored to later re-make production moulds.

From the original, an RTV clear silicone mould is made, then a resin master is cast from it.
The resin master is used to press a silicone master mould, which is then cast to get "production tins".
These production tins are used to press production moulds, which are used to cast the final models.

The process is still a bit time consuming, and moulds on average can cost GW anywhere from £10-£20 per mold, so a model with 10 parts will need a minimum of 10 moulds, one for each part, for casting. GW as a rule no longer makes "mixed code" moulds.

New moulds do NOT cost "next to nothing", even for GW.

Gaebriel
08-12-2007, 23:42
...
It was about Games Workshop and what makes them special. Or rather, it was about how Games Workshop has now become less special than it was before.
...

...
How has GW become less speacial? ... Not because they have a hugh Mail Order back catalogue
One of the things that made GW special from most other miniature manufacturers was that they a. had multipart kits, and b. you could order single bits, and order bits from years ago.

While a. still stands, and - at least for the newer market - gets better and better, b. is going down the drain. Discontinuing bits in a small fashion is okay, and a need - cutting down whole ranges may be a need, but is painful - to the older market. Getting less and less possibilities for customization through less single bits, and more sprues (or boxes - many components aren't even listed on the online store anymore) is making GW 'less special'.

All the power to the new market, if that is where GW's money lies - but please don't tell me GW will offer the same level of free customization as during the 90s. GW was more special in that regards than other companies, and GW is moving towards a much less customizable range of product.

junglesnake
08-12-2007, 23:46
The models I think I will miss the most are the old Marine armour varients.

In this age of incuraging people to re-inact 40k history on the table top, the loss of any herecy armour models is a bit gutting.

And admittedly my discovery was during researching these and armour plates for the old Marine tanks. These were only stopped being used a few years ago.

I have issues when it comes to some of their ranges - whilst they look great as they find new sculpts etc for them they seem to forget fluff. Its great that Marines get technological advances as they should but they are a sort of backward thinking lot at times. They respect and worship age and ancient machinery, my MkI tanks are still in my army for that reason - all be it modified to look venerable.

I do think some option of flavour has gone. I don't blame them if it is making a loss, and like I said before I think a lot of people will understand it and even accept it when it comes to some ranges which have been followed by not one, not two but in some cases three new generations of the same race. For example rogue trader orks.

Infact in some cases it is shocking to see how long some sculpts have lasted for. The last version plastic Ork warbike was from 2nd ed. The current Eldar Jetbike is the same but an earlier release than that. I would just like to see some figures that offered selection and choice kept. For example some of the old Farseer models are more than capable of keeping up with the current line.

junglesnake
08-12-2007, 23:49
you have to remeber that since the early 90's the uk head office have been keeping the oringinal scuplts in safe storeage - as another poster has already commented on. So the destruction of moulds is nothing something that has to be done for storeage sake. New moulds cost next to nothing for gw to re-done.

Actually tooling is one of the more expencive parts of the process and when you consider that the moulds for metal models are more expencive than the plastic equivelants you can see why disscontinuing for good is a financial decision.

I should imagine that the masters are kept so that there is no doubt in future to their copywrights etc. A photo is one thing but having hard physical evidence in front of you is another. Plus those babies would be worth quite a bit should they get strapped for cash at some point in the future and need to sell an old range or two . . . .

selfconstrukt
09-12-2007, 00:09
Actually tooling is one of the more expencive parts of the process and when you consider that the moulds for metal models are more expencive than the plastic equivelants you can see why disscontinuing for good is a financial decision.

Not exactly, moulds for metal are much cheaper than the tools for plastics. Its the finished product you get your savings on.

A mould for metal casting costs anywhere from £10-£50 depending on the material, time and quantity made.

1 tool for plastics can cost a minimum of £10,000, on up. Most of GW's tools are in the £30,000-£50,000 range due to the complexity and number of pieces on the sprues, they might even be cheaper since GW started making the tools themselves.

The advantage of plastic is in the manufacturing process. A casting machine needs 1 operator per machine, and takes about 20-30 seconds per spin, and you get on average 10-30 pieces per spin.

Plastics are much more efficient. 1 operator can watch over 6 machines at the same time; each machine is automatic as well, the operator only has to stack the finished sprues in boxes, and quality check them.
A plastic injection machine also has a cycle time of 2-5 seconds, so the sprues are made faster as well.

Plastics in the long run are cheaper to produce than metal, but the equipment and tools aer much, much more expensive.

Crazy Harborc
09-12-2007, 00:29
Um....I recall reading that the molds for plastic minies last much longer than the molds for metal minies......Less money spent on (replacement) molds lowers the manufacturing cost. Every bit helps to increase the bottom line.

Bookwrak
09-12-2007, 03:54
Except when you have such a vast discrepancy in how much the making of the actual mold costs. If it costs £50 to make the mold then you only need to sell 10 of the £10 per model characters it makes(ignoring that the money from sales doesn't break down that easy, but you get the point). You need to sell far fewer metal models to recoup the cost of the mold than you do for plastics, which is one reason why characters are frequently metal. By their nature you're going to sell vastly less of them than rank and file, and you get better detail from the medium, which is suitable for characters.

spaint2k
09-12-2007, 05:47
How has GW become less speacial?
<SNIP>
Personally I find my hobby special because it is fun, relaxing and I can enjoy it and have a laugh with my friends. Not because they have a hugh Mail Order back catalogue

Gah! The "hobby" isn't GW. The hobby is toy soldiers, collecting and painting miniatures, wargaming, etc.

How has GW become less special? You said it yourself - they used to have an enormous back catalogue. I don't know if you're deliberately trying not to see the other side of the story or what.

GW prided themselves on the size of their back-catalogue. Advertisements used to boldly pronounce that they could get any figure for you. Now they can't. So while GW used to be different to other companies in this respect, now they're not. While this difference used to make GW special, now that the difference doesn't exist (or has been reduced), GW is less special.


Well, the same could be said about the bitz that were hardly used, or ordered. Note, I for one hate the fact that they are gone, but I also know that my little contribution was not enough to keep it going. The Direct Only Models, on the other hand, I will buy (well, not all of them...)

We have some Direct Only models now... I don't see why they have to be a replacement for the bitz service. In fact, there shouldn't be any relationship between the two at all.



Actually, no offense, but those two paragraphs are kinda contradicting. The fact that so many models (at least in the states) have disapeared for quite some time shows they have been "less special" on other occassions. I know I waited quite a long time before I could finally get my Arkhan the Black, because it had disapeared. And for a while here, there were rather large holes in the bitz inventory on what are now "classic" models.

I agree this is a move that I do not like, but I am also willing to ride it through.


It wasn't intended to be a contradiction. It was intended to show that GW have done this before that's all. And each time the back-catalogue is reduced, GW becomes less special than it was. It wasn't only done in the States either.

I'd say the peak was back in 2000 or 2001. At that point in time, I'm pretty sure you really could order virtually anything with a code from the red and blue catalogues of the early nineties. If you actually went to Warhammer World they could cast you up just about anything they'd ever done.

Steve

junglesnake
09-12-2007, 12:50
Not exactly, moulds for metal are much cheaper than the tools for plastics. Its the finished product you get your savings on.

A mould for metal casting costs anywhere from £10-£50 depending on the material, time and quantity made.

1 tool for plastics can cost a minimum of £10,000, on up. Most of GW's tools are in the £30,000-£50,000 range due to the complexity and number of pieces on the sprues, they might even be cheaper since GW started making the tools themselves.

The advantage of plastic is in the manufacturing process. A casting machine needs 1 operator per machine, and takes about 20-30 seconds per spin, and you get on average 10-30 pieces per spin.

Plastics are much more efficient. 1 operator can watch over 6 machines at the same time; each machine is automatic as well, the operator only has to stack the finished sprues in boxes, and quality check them.
A plastic injection machine also has a cycle time of 2-5 seconds, so the sprues are made faster as well.

Plastics in the long run are cheaper to produce than metal, but the equipment and tools aer much, much more expensive.

I know someone here has already posted on this subject but something isn't right here. There is no way a single mould costs £20-£50! It may cost that much once you consider the amount of uses you get out of it.

However, the reason why the masters can get damaged is because of the heat needed to melt the material used for the mould. If the miniature is to be metal then quite obviously the mould/tool itself needs to be of a much higher temperature so that it doesn't go moulten along with the minis. This means the material and processes for these molds is more expencive.

Add to that the fact that although these moulds are stronger because of the type of use and temperature involved, they have a shorter shelf life than a mould created for plastic miniatures.

I know this all through my degree - not saying it is fact but it was what the companies who gave us lectures informed us.

When you look at the price jump from lead to "white metal" you can also see where this comes into play. Lead had a lower melting point hence less heat in the process and easier to make moulds.

Now as I have said I couldn't agree more with some of the ranges going but then that is going to be a debate in itself. I think the old Nids are not a touch on the new ones - I never liked their cheesey grins! But then in the '80s and early '90s there was a certain element of comedy involved in quite a few of the forces - in some ways I am happy that they have moved away from it - I just think with a little more customer liason they could have kept some lines and remarketed them. Not in the store front but perhaps as alternatives and for conversion ideas.

I know tooling costs quite a bit but I am sure they could have maybe condenced some parts and created a conversion bits range in the same way they have a basing set now.

Maybe have a box of pieces for spacemarines such as the book off the front of the old master of the ravenwing, character weapons, and parts which evey marine general could maybe use to inject some extra character into their army.

There are parts like this for all of the races - as well as some minis that have aged far better than others.

junglesnake
09-12-2007, 12:57
Gah! The "hobby" isn't GW. The hobby is toy soldiers, collecting and painting miniatures, wargaming, etc.

How has GW become less special? You said it yourself - they used to have an enormous back catalogue. I don't know if you're deliberately trying not to see the other side of the story or what.

GW prided themselves on the size of their back-catalogue. Advertisements used to boldly pronounce that they could get any figure for you. Now they can't. So while GW used to be different to other companies in this respect, now they're not. While this difference used to make GW special, now that the difference doesn't exist (or has been reduced), GW is less special.



We have some Direct Only models now... I don't see why they have to be a replacement for the bitz service. In fact, there shouldn't be any relationship between the two at all.




It wasn't intended to be a contradiction. It was intended to show that GW have done this before that's all. And each time the back-catalogue is reduced, GW becomes less special than it was. It wasn't only done in the States either.

I'd say the peak was back in 2000 or 2001. At that point in time, I'm pretty sure you really could order virtually anything with a code from the red and blue catalogues of the early nineties. If you actually went to Warhammer World they could cast you up just about anything they'd ever done.

Steve

I would agree, strangely from what I can understand, that was when GW was making its most profit, and that recently they have had slightly harder times.

However I put this down to prices. When I was younger if I had £3-£5 I new that I could get something down the store that was either a great model or a great expansion to my force. The small combat squad sets for example were well within this price range.

Now I agree inflation has risen so will the cost of things but you look at a combat squad now and it costs £10+. You can get a "booster" set for less but they are single pose and I am yet to see anyone pick one up and buy it.

In those days I had two or three armies on the go at the same time because I could go down one week buy a character for one army, go down the next and get a few troops for another. I had Eldar, Space Marines and Orks.

Establishing an army now can not be done in that way, and if you get some spare cash you have to think twice about spending it in that way. £25 can get fun for the whole family or one happy guy painting a tank on his own at home!

Another annoying factor is the contents of blister packs. No longer can I buy a single Catachan officer - I have to buy two. Great I spend the money and either have to ebay the other thus loosing money or let him collect dust.

Their repeat buys must be down, and the time between the same customer purchasing longer. Anyway I have gone off track . . . . . ;oD

Horus84
09-12-2007, 16:22
Gah! The "hobby" isn't GW. The hobby is toy soldiers, collecting and painting miniatures, wargaming, etc.

How has GW become less special? You said it yourself - they used to have an enormous back catalogue. I don't know if you're deliberately trying not to see the other side of the story or what.

GW prided themselves on the size of their back-catalogue. Advertisements used to boldly pronounce that they could get any figure for you. Now they can't. So while GW used to be different to other companies in this respect, now they're not. While this difference used to make GW special, now that the difference doesn't exist (or has been reduced), GW is less special.


I never said "the hobby" is GW - I said "my"

and they still will have a hugh back catalogue of mini, just filtered down to the products that hobbyist buy regularly enough to warrent them still being sold. The range of specific models is still going to span the last 30 years of sculpts from what has been anounched by the Direct Department.

I still don't see how these upcoming changes will make GW specifically, any "less special". They will be still offering the mail order compent service of a vast collection of mini's. As I said my hobby any less enjoyable or special

Gen.Steiner
09-12-2007, 16:28
It sounds like you guys would have a heart attack if you found out what was tossed! The entire Man o War range, Epic, Space Fleet etc. Thousands of unreleased models for Mighty Empires, Man o War, Necromunda, WFB, W40K etc.

It broke my heart to see all those go, honestly, I shed tears...

:eek: Hrk! Ga! Wh-! I... Jesus H Christ on a bike. That's insane. Utterly, utterly insane.

What irritates me is that it's forcing me into eBay to buy the armies I want. I want a Guard army that uses all metal Catachans. I want a 5th edition Bretonnian army. I want Orks from 2nd Edition. Can I get them from GW? Can I ****. Why are they making it hard for me to give them money, the fools?

selfconstrukt
09-12-2007, 16:43
I know someone here has already posted on this subject but something isn't right here. There is no way a single mould costs £20-£50! It may cost that much once you consider the amount of uses you get out of it.

However, the reason why the masters can get damaged is because of the heat needed to melt the material used for the mould. If the miniature is to be metal then quite obviously the mould/tool itself needs to be of a much higher temperature so that it doesn't go moulten along with the minis. This means the material and processes for these molds is more expencive.

Add to that the fact that although these moulds are stronger because of the type of use and temperature involved, they have a shorter shelf life than a mould created for plastic miniatures.

I know this all through my degree - not saying it is fact but it was what the companies who gave us lectures informed us.

1 set of raw silicone for 1 mold from Nicem (who GW uses) costs about £5 alone, then you add to that the labour etc. and you get your mold cost. Naturally the more molds they make in a day can reduce the cost, but the number of molds made depends on day-to-day demand.

Also, the masters are not destroyed by the moulding process, since there is no heat produced with RTV mould rubber, like there is with vulcanized silicone moulds.

After the originals are used to make a primary RTV mould, a resin model is cast from that, and it is that resin model that is used to produce the heat-cured silicon moulds (both master and production moulds) so the originals are not destroyed by the moulding process.

Most of the damage to the originals occurs when removing it from the RTV silicone mould, mostly it breaks apart and there are knife cuts on it as well from cutting open the mould.

Production moulds are made from the metal masters. The moulds are pressed using a press set at about °300 F, while the metal masters have a melting point of about °600 F. The actual temperature can fluctuate during the day, but that is an average temp.

Silicone moulds may not last as long as metal tools for plastics, but they are a fraction of the cost, and only take about 3 hours to make, as opposed to days for the plastic tools.

And its good you have a degree, but I gained this knowledge from working at GW for 6 years in Manufacturing, 2 years of which were in the mould department making the masters and moulds.

Wintermute
09-12-2007, 17:09
:eek: Hrk! Ga! Wh-! I... Jesus H Christ on a bike. That's insane. Utterly, utterly insane.

It may seem insane to us, but it makes perfect sense to GW from a business point of view because all these items are taking up storage space, which costs money. Also if they are not going to use the molds, then it doesn't make any sense to keep them.

I can see why GW are doing this, but it doesn't mean I agree with it.

spaint2k
09-12-2007, 17:18
I still don't see how these upcoming changes will make GW specifically, any "less special". They will be still offering the mail order compent service of a vast collection of mini's. As I said my hobby any less enjoyable or special

I never said anything about your hobby, or anyone's hobby being diminished by GW's mail order revisions. You're the one who brought it up. I mentioned it in my last post in an attempt to clarify that the hobby is clearly separate to GW, the corporate entity. What I have consistently said is that one of the things that makes GW special is being diminished.

I can only assume that English is your second language, since you don't seem to know what the word special means. Special means "distinguished by some unusual quality". And one of the things that made GW special was the fact that they could get you just about any model or any component of any model from the last thirty years. Now they can't. So they are not as special as before, and instead have taken a step towards becoming more like the normal companies that don't offer such a service. GW are becoming less distinct from the other companies, and therefore less special.

All the other items which you've praised GW for offering in the stead of mail order bits service are smoke and mirrors to try to distract us from noticing an overall reduction in choice for the punter. Most of the items you mentioned either currently exist or did do before they got changed for one reason or another. Bitz packages are interesting, but they're not a replacement for a component service. Neither are direct models, since there's no reason not to have them alongside the component service as well (which they already do).

Most of the people posting on here love GW and their products. I have been an addict for 20 years, and don't see myself giving up anytime soon. The changes we're all speaking of might be in the company's long-term interests (although really, any option GW takes is a form of risk and they can only hope they are doing the right thing), but it doesn't mean we have to smile and nod agreeably when we can see that changes in GW's corporate policy aren't actually going to be better for us, the customers.

All eight points you made initially, and to which I took such offence, are completely immaterial and are not mutually exclusive with a component service. They are certainly not an improvement, and trying to believe otherwise is an exercise in double-think.

Steve

Crazy Harborc
09-12-2007, 19:12
Okay.......Unless the tax laws on businesses are VERY different in the UK........All those molds, all that metal was bought and paid for before this year....well, most of it. The molds and other this and thats that are by law equipment, are depreciating in value. The material and labor used to make the bits and or minies melted down (or to be so) was paid for in the past not to be paid now or in the future. In other words all that stuff could well have generated a large profit margin when now sold.

But.......to save money, as cost cutting......it was or will be melted down?:confused:

Now...new molds will be paid for, materials and labor costs will be paid for new stuff to fill the space. All that is needed is to make enough gross profits to pay all the new costs. Costs that include (or should) the lost potential profits that were melted down instead of being sold.

Yes I know, for what 30 days (seemed like way less) before the deadline, we all had a chance to buy the stuff?

Nephilim of Sin
10-12-2007, 01:23
Actually, the more I think about it, the madder I get. If they are getting rid of all these bitz because people don't buy them, maybe it is because those classic/collector's models were priced higher than their counterparts (due to them being out of regular circulation). Now, if these molds have already paid for themselves, then why do they just sell until they run out?

What I am getting at is back in 2000-2001, the U.S. Online store had some great deals with bitz. Particlular bitz would be put on a special discount, which prompted me to buy more to lower the shipping. Instead of paying an insane amount for, let's say Ravager bitz, it was $5. Why didn't they just do something like this for the bitz? Why not have a "bitz blowout"? I for one wouldn't be looking on e-bay to find those models when I can get everything from one place, and free shipping to boot. From a business sense, to my small mind at least, instead of saying "We have x bitz in limited quantity and y days to buy them at full, regular cost" why not have "X bitz are no longer going to be produced after y date. Here is your chance to get them at a special cost!". Just my two ranting cents....

Gen.Steiner
10-12-2007, 04:10
Exactly! It would at least ensure a clear-out through sales rather than dumping, which is wasteful and mad. :( Oh well. Ours not to reason why, ours but to paint and buy...

Gaebriel
10-12-2007, 09:34
I guess it would have gone against some sort of "GW corporate honour" to offer things at a discount :angel:

Having a look into the future - with a decrease in singly available bits, due to most things being available on sprues, and these sprues scarcely being available singly - will we see an increase in business of bits-order companies? Will GW take action to hamper more bits orders' business (reference Battlewagon - please correct me, if I'm wrong). Will people just buy £5.00 sprues for single bits and £15.00 boxes for single models? Or will the conversion business as we know it decline?

Emperor's Grace
10-12-2007, 15:43
Ours not to reason why, ours but to paint and buy...

Great, and oh, so siggable....

junglesnake
10-12-2007, 17:52
I guess it would have gone against some sort of "GW corporate honour" to offer things at a discount :angel:

Having a look into the future - with a decrease in singly available bits, due to most things being available on sprues, and these sprues scarcely being available singly - will we see an increase in business of bits-order companies? Will GW take action to hamper more bits orders' business (reference Battlewagon - please correct me, if I'm wrong). Will people just buy £5.00 sprues for single bits and £15.00 boxes for single models? Or will the conversion business as we know it decline?

I think people will do what me and some of my friends do, share the cost of the box and share the contents.

Have done this with the new plastic devestators.

They may be able to crush the companies that supply individual bits but they would have a problem getting ebay to prevent their users from doing it. So in the long run GW would loose out.

By that I mean someone may buy the sprue for £5 for say 20% of it and then sell the rest/pass it to a buddy. GW would then loose £5 for each bit used by a different person as they would not have to buy a sprue.

They would be better off designing snapable weaknesses in some of the sprues to divide them down to half frames etc.

I say this because if you could get a half sprue of say heads and weapons or a half sprue of arms and detail bits I think they would be better off.

RevEv
11-12-2007, 18:49
Exactly! It would at least ensure a clear-out through sales rather than dumping, which is wasteful and mad. :( Oh well. Ours not to reason why, ours but to paint and buy...

As many older gamers know, they used to do this. However they are, or so I am reliably informed, restricted by their LoTR licence from doing this (this seems plausible since the last sale they had was the summer before LoTR was released... I was in Scotland on holiday and my wife and I spent a heck of a lot of money at GW Edinburgh and GW Perth).

selfconstrukt
11-12-2007, 19:39
If they are getting rid of all these bitz because people don't buy them, maybe it is because those classic/collector's models were priced higher than their counterparts (due to them being out of regular circulation). Now, if these molds have already paid for themselves, then why do they just sell until they run out?

Because if a customer buys a model, then GW pickers find out the bin is empty, they do not want to give the customer a refund, nor do they want to give him a credit, which usually is for more than the initial model.

Sales just won't want to lose a sale, which is reasonable.

As for the increased cost, someone, somewhere decided that in order to keep the older bits in circulation, they should cost more since they sell less of them.

GW did have a bits blowout sale, several times at least in the US. The problem with that was the same, they sold more bits than there was available, and more had to be cast up which wound up costing more money than it was worth (from what I'd heard).

What was also happening was the sales guys were selling models at a sale price that were not on sale, just to get the customer to buy. They were also selling models that were not supposed to be available anymore as well, so more had to be cast up, info put into the inventory system etc. (since the models were made obsolete, the system had to be updated to recognize them again)

Salesmen are there to sell, and they will sell just about anything to make their money, otherwise they will probably lose their jobs. This did happen many, many times in the US, sale guys who did not make their monthly quotas were either disciplined or were terminated (if it happened more than once).

Sales can be a pretty cutthroat line of work, since your own livelihood depends on you making the company money, and if you don't make the company money, then you are costing the company money and GW won't stand for that.

junglesnake
11-12-2007, 19:52
As many older gamers know, they used to do this. However they are, or so I am reliably informed, restricted by their LoTR licence from doing this (this seems plausible since the last sale they had was the summer before LoTR was released... I was in Scotland on holiday and my wife and I spent a heck of a lot of money at GW Edinburgh and GW Perth).

Not sure on this one. The last actual sale I remember was to get rid of the lead stock. By that I mean nationwide sale.

There maybe certain agreements involved with the LoTR stuff itself because they are paying for use of the image rights, copy rights etc. And I should imagine that because of this they don't have sole ownership of the molds etc. Don't quote me on that one mind!

RevEv
11-12-2007, 22:31
I was not in to gaming when that sale occurred, so the sales I remember are definately more recent than that.

Emperor's Grace
12-12-2007, 17:06
Because if a customer buys a model, then GW pickers find out the bin is empty, they do not want to give the customer a refund, nor do they want to give him a credit, which usually is for more than the initial model.

<edit> GW did have a bits blowout sale, several times at least in the US. The problem with that was the same, they sold more bits than there was available, and more had to be cast up which wound up costing more money than it was worth (from what I'd heard).

What was also happening was the sales guys were selling models at a sale price that were not on sale, just to get the customer to buy. They were also selling models that were not supposed to be available anymore as well, so more had to be cast up, info put into the inventory system etc. (since the models were made obsolete, the system had to be updated to recognize them again)

These issues could be largely solved by the "grab bag" approach.

A sale of ramdom mixed bags to clear stock.

They did it before when the shelving collapsed ....