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milktoast
14-04-2005, 21:18
Hi there, my first post at portent.

I have a question about the general WH fluff that's been in my mind for some time, 'pose it's been described/discussed before, but in that case, please forgive me for my ignorance (and I'm still interested in any comments).

OK:
What's the 'official' connection between the WHFB and WH40k universes?
I've always thought the 40k universe being the future FB universe ( year 40000...), but as I understand it there's some contradictions in this hypothesis, for example the Birth of Slaanesh described in 40k, though Slaanesh exists even in FB. Another possibility would be the FB planet being a primal world in the 40k universe or something like that.

I understand there's no necessary connection as they are different games, but I still think it's kind of interesting to hear how you view it (or where I can find any fluff description of any connection), that is, just for fun!

Very grateful for any help!

Minister
14-04-2005, 21:32
Most likley situation is that the Warhammer world exists in paralell with 40K, sharing roughly the same "present" time. The most likley situation is that the birth of Slannesh disrupted one of the last great experiments by the Slann (who are still alive in small numbers on the northern fringe of the galaxy), giving rise to the polar warp gates. This timeframe would allow for the races in the warhammer world to be taken from anywhere in the 40K universe (thus the distinct probability that ogres and halflings are minor modifications of the ogryns and ratlings, the eldar an older modification on the Slanns' old playthings the Eldar and so-on. Most likley the world was an experiment in small-scale modification and racial interaction which was disrupted.

milktoast
14-04-2005, 21:52
Good point Minister, thanks!

That experiment hypothesis would explain the high prevalence of most of the major races in the 40k universe, existing in feral versions on the same planet. What are your intriguing theories based on?

Are there any more detailed information/speculations about this (xcept in the Lizards AB)? Or any FB fluff about anything that could be interpreted as interaction with the rest of the universe? I would really like to read it!

Inquisitor Engel
14-04-2005, 21:56
WFB can't be the past of 40k, because all the races exist there, which conflicts against every peice of racial background in 40k.

Earth, in 40k is just that. The Warhammer World, despite similarities, is not Earth. Holy Terra is.

The most likely, and for a time, canon, approach of GW was that the WFB World was a world cut off from the rest of 40k by warpstorms. The other races existed simply because Orks are everywhere, the Slann put a couple of Eldar there, and humanity crashlanded. Who knows were the Squats/Demiurg came from. :p

The link was established with things like power fists in WFB, Chaos Warriors with laspistols and chainswords etc etc. The link was destroyed, denied, and then the Albion items basically reinforced it again, as did the Amazons with Laspistols in Mordhiem.

Asher
14-04-2005, 22:01
Well, the WH 40k universe is 'our' universe 40'000 years ahead. For those who support the idea of them beiing in the same universe, the WHFB world is one of the countless in the 40k universe but never discovered by the imperium or anyone else. There were connections in the past:

- A WHFB chaos champion could get a boltpistol as armament.

Strikerck has posted some other interessting fluff conections on the old portent. I don't remember the exact wording, so may be he will post them again if he stumbles over this thread.

Today however any connection is denied by official sources. There is some refference in the Liber chaotica: Tzeench though.

milktoast
14-04-2005, 22:09
"cut off from the rest of 40k by warpstorms"... that's a good one GW :D

But I still wonder about the same tendencies of Elves/Eldar developing into Dark elves/eldar... Should these two developments really be independent of each other?

milktoast
14-04-2005, 22:11
"Liber chaotica: Tzeench" - thanks Asher, I'll get my hands on that one!

Asher
14-04-2005, 22:21
The Eldar / Elves split is complitely different.
I'm not to much into the WHFB fluff, but as far as I recall the Dark Elves are the ones who support Mor...what ever his name was who calms to be the true phoenix king. Some of them even worship chaos (slaanesh/khorne).

The split of the Eldar and dark Eldar came at the fall. Slaanesh was born of the excesses and lusty life of the ancient Eldar. I imagine them as being something between the current Eldar and Dark Eldar, some more extrem some moderate. At the fall most of the Eldar died, and were consumed by Slaanesh. That is the fate of every Eldar who dies.
To prevent this the Eldar and Dark Eldar use different techiques. That is also the split between them.
The Eldar belive that a modest, stoic life is the way to go. Preserving their souls in soulstones to weaken Slaanesh, the Dark Eldar are offering souls to Slaanesh so it feeds on them rather than on the soul of the dark eldar. The dark eldar also kept the way of life of the ancient eldar, being excessive as it gets.

The Liber Chaotica: Tzeench should be sold out by now. But you will probably rather want to get the 4 in one collection that is out by june or july. It features all 4 books and aditionally some references on chaos undivided. And costs as much as only two of the previously released books.

EDIT: Note, opposed to common belif, the Dark Eldar DON'T worship Slaanesh. They just try to avoid to be consumed by offering other souls.

Black Ambience
14-04-2005, 22:23
"cut off from the rest of 40k by warpstorms"... that's a good one GW :D

A GW official was on his way to a press conference so thast he could explain why they so-often take the cheap route in explaining things. Sadly, he got caught in a Warp Storm and never made it.

milktoast
14-04-2005, 22:37
The Eldar / Elves split is complitely different.
I'm not to much into the WHFB fluff, but as far as I recall the Dark Elves are the ones who support Mor...what ever his name was who calms to be the true phoenix king. Some of them even worship chaos (slaanesh/khorne).

The split of the Eldar and dark Eldar came at the fall. Slaanesh was born of the excesses and lusty life of the ancient Eldar. I imagine them as being something between the current Eldar and Dark Eldar, some more extrem some moderate. At the fall most of the Eldar died, and were consumed by Slaanesh. That is the fate of every Eldar who dies.
To prevent this the Eldar and Dark Eldar use different techiques. That is also the split between them.
The Eldar belive that a modest, stoic life is the way to go. Preserving their souls in soulstones to weaken Slaanesh, the Dark Eldar are offering souls to Slaanesh so it feeds on them rather than on the soul of the dark eldar. The dark eldar also kept the way of life of the ancient eldar, being excessive as it gets.



Yeah, I see the differences between the (fluff) development of Dark Eldar vs dark elves. But I still think there are many similarities in their character, their sadistic approach for instance, as well as the development in itself from the civilised eldar(ok, I've read 2nd ed Eldar about the fall...)/elves. And I wonder if one could view this as a common weakness of Eldar/elves descending into dark eldar/elves? Since these developments supposedly happened independent of each other, in FB and 40k.

Captain Blood
14-04-2005, 22:38
From what I can make of it, the WHFB world could well be in the a particularly nasy section of the EOT. Now, IIRC, the polar warpgates of the Old Ones/Slaan blew out and flooded the polar regions with warp energy approximately what, 10,000 or so years ago, assuming I'm not remembering wrong, and that just about fits with the fall of the Eldar. In the 2nd Ed. Codex: Chaos, there's mention of N'Kari, a Slaaneshi daemon prince that was born on a "backward world which had been trapped in the centre of a violent warp storm for millennia. The Chaos Powers have repeatedly attempted to conquer this planet, but so far have been foiled by the uncorrupted peoples of the world." Sounds familiar if you ask me. Oddly enough N'Kari fought alongside Doombreed against the Emperor on the battlebarge meaning that if he were from the Old World, he somehow got off.

milktoast
14-04-2005, 22:48
WFB can't be the past of 40k, because all the races exist there, which conflicts against every peice of racial background in 40k.



I had a thought about this. Couldn't you say that the 40k universe always is described through the imperial point of view (a characterful feature i think since it emphasize the religious indoctrinating knowledge monopoly of the Imperium)? And that some "truths" in the 40k unverses are actually imperial misunderstandings (for example regarding the racial backgrounds), or the picture given by the imperium to it's minions? I mean, are the descriptions we IRL get always "true" or are they the imperial truth? Related to the discussion through the arguments given above by Engel.

Drak Bloodhelm
15-04-2005, 15:02
I had a thought about this. Couldn't you say that the 40k universe always is described through the imperial point of view (a characterful feature i think since it emphasize the religious indoctrinating knowledge monopoly of the Imperium)? And that some "truths" in the 40k unverses are actually imperial misunderstandings (for example regarding the racial backgrounds), or the picture given by the imperium to it's minions? I mean, are the descriptions we IRL get always "true" or are they the imperial truth? Related to the discussion through the arguments given above by Engel.

It's true a lot of the new stuff is through the eyes of the Imperium, and as such can be thought of as slightly subjective and biased (okay majorly subjective and biased). A lot of the old stuff though used to be very objective, as if you were say reading an encyclopedia or a dictionary, and was very factual, and not open to a lot of interpretation. So it depends on where you get the fluff from, if it's "true" or not.

Touching on a few other subjects on the thread:

The warhammer world is not earth, it's been said. Terra is earth. The warhammer world is not.

The two universes (40k and fantasy) for all purposes are not related, and stuff happens to be co-incidental. This was not allways the case (warp storms and links and this and that), but it seems to be the way GW wants it to be now.

Dark Eldar are not Dark Elves. They share some characteristics, but they differ on many very important ones. The most important of which is that Dark Elves (some of them) worship Slaanesh, the Hag Queen Morathai (sp?) being her chosen champion(ess?). The Dark Eldar HATE chaos and Slaanesh. They can't stand chaos, especially She Who Thirsts, as she hungers for their souls, and they take every step possable to stay as far away from her as they can. This is a misconception that seems to spring up a lot... they are not the same. Similar in superficial qualities yes, but at the core issues, very different.

Wolflord Bloodangel
16-04-2005, 03:43
The unofficial standing is that the two universes are concurrent, in that the Fantasy world is just a world somewhere in the current 40k universe...

The official standing is that theyre two completely different universe, but different people in GW must have different opinions, considering the release of power armour, power fists, power swords and similar after the Albion campaign.

Whether the warhammer world is an experiment, or whether its an isolated world is unknown....



And Dark Elves worship Khaine far more than they worship Slaanesh, and he is a deicdedly Eldar god... its just instead of becoming dedicated to Khaine in an aspect shrine, theyve become bitter and twisted by him (coz really, he wasnt a nice god)...

anarchistica
16-04-2005, 23:33
Today however any connection is denied by official sources. There is some refference in the Liber chaotica: Tzeench though.
The Liberi Chaotica aren't official fluff. And the reference to 40K was just included so the book would sell to players of both systems.

Warhammer used to be part of 40K, and since much of the fluff was the same because of this they can't diverge the two too much from eachother because that would not make sense. It's also alot easier to do it like this, and fun to play with people's heads (like the reference to Sharki's Fishmen).

Besides this, it's also just cool to have armies with similar themes and playing styles in both games.

milmot
17-04-2005, 05:42
The WHFB and WH40K universese are mutually exclusive.

The similarities are because if it worked on one gaming system, why not transfer it to the other gaming system. I.E. the differences races - Orks/orcs, Eldar are elves... however this is not always the case. E.G. Squats (space dwarfs) obvously didnt transfer across succesfully. Same as how Tau won't be able to be transferred as a Fantasy race.

My point is, if people are familiar with one concept, it is easy to transfer it across without having to think of something new or fresh. The ground work is already there. Everyone knows how orks/orcs act and how the eldar/elves are meant to be noble etc.

Well that's just my views and you are welcomed to argue against them.

That said... I think it's worthwhile to point out a theory that has been posted a long time ago. I cant remember the guy who started the Empire (in WHFB), but it was theorized that he is one of the Primarchs as he came from a twin-tailed comet... (read: Drop Pod).

WLBjork
17-04-2005, 07:47
I'd have thought a Twin-Tailed Comet would be more likely to be a Cruiser or similar - after all a DP lands like a meteor/shooting star.

I think that the more fun connection - even though it's far less likely to be true - is Ulric the Wolf God and Ulrik the Wolf Priest

taer
18-04-2005, 04:14
Yeah, except Sigmar timeline doesn't fit in with primarch timeline (If you consider the collapse of the warp gates as the point of birth of Slaanesh). (Which isn't a complete impossibility, I'm just not too peachy with it. I like to think of Sigmar in a Thorian light ;) ) There's minor references to the WHFB world in the Necron book, and various mentions of 40k in fantasy stuff. I think that there have been a daemon prince or two that have floated between systems in fluff, though not completely sure on this. I know the cover art for one of the fantasy chaos books had a Destroyer of Khorne from 40k on it. There used to be/currently are magic items that are from 40k, and so on.

So yeah, there is a connection between 40k and fantasy, though it is a very mysterious one.

Asher
18-04-2005, 06:51
I think that the more fun connection - even though it's far less likely to be true - is Ulric the Wolf God and Ulrik the Wolf Priest

It is not that unlikely. Although I don't recall the exact wording, Ulric (the god) is discribed as heaving inpiercable armor and a head (> helmet) of a wolf(skull).

venusianfurs
18-04-2005, 17:22
Or any FB fluff about anything that could be interpreted as interaction with the rest of the universe? I would really like to read it!

I think there have been just one or two specific, official connections made years back, once apparently in 4th edition warhammer fluff that described the warhammer world as being a lost planet (sorry I can't be more specific), and a few mainly inferred pointers in the old Realms of Chaos books (Slaves to Darkness and the other one), but that was a while back, so any fluff there is mainly out of date.
A bit controverisal maybe, but I think the Albion stuff was more in the way of clever in-jokes than actual hints or clues.
Remember that GW making a definate connection would open some rather huge floodgates, and saying a definate 'no' would just be mean, so I doubt there will ever, ever be a better answer than has already been given - none. Or to put it another way, home-made theology is the closest thing there will be, Caspar.

The Liberi Chaotica aren't official fluff.
Seriously? Where d'you hear that?

milktoast
18-04-2005, 17:48
Remember that GW making a definate connection would open some rather huge floodgates, and saying a definate 'no' would just be mean, so I doubt there will ever, ever be a better answer than has already been given - none. Or to put it another way, home-made theology is the closest thing there will be, Caspar.



Yeah, and I really prefer it that way. regard "how it could be"-discussions more interesting than "how it is" ones.

The fine art of speculation... :)

btw, the Fluff Bible leans towards the experiment hypothesis as I interpret it.

Inquisitor Engel
18-04-2005, 17:53
The Liberi Chaotica aren't official fluff. And the reference to 40K was just included so the book would sell to players of both systems.
Marijan might well disagree with you. ;)

They are actually considered canon by the Studio staff. Though some disagree, with the links, some don't.

Still, they're cracking good reads! :D

anarchistica
18-04-2005, 19:06
Marijan might well disagree with you. ;)

They are actually considered canon by the Studio staff. Though some disagree, with the links, some don't.

Still, they're cracking good reads! :D
I recall Bubble Ghost saying it's not official and probably something along those lines coming from M.v.S. too.

Granted, there is no "official" background really, there's alot of artistic interpretation (Plague Marine with Heavy Bolter, etc). If something makes sense to me, i like to think of it as the way things could be in WFB/40K. The Liberi make alot of sense, in my opinion.

ryng_sting
23-07-2005, 15:38
Officially, there isn't one. There was one, once, in the old Chaos Codex (the warhammer world is a planet surrounded by impenetrable warp storms). Some like it, some don't. There's an argument that says to have the warhammer world simply one planet among millions within the Imperium is to trivialise it.

Personally I don't agree. The old explanation, serves the best of both worlds, without the need for some rather overheated theorising about multiverses and the like. The older version was much simpler and, in any case, comes to much the same conclusion. We're never going to see Space Marines in Altdorf, or any off-worlders entering, and once we concede that, the benefits highlight themselves. In a miniaturised form, the planet captures everything about the blind struggle between Chaos and the mortal world by scaling it all down to the level of a planet, for the actual posession of a world.

Phunting
23-07-2005, 16:26
I've always believed in the link. Besides anything else it appeared to be how the original designers saw the background, and I prefer to go by their vision than the eternal revisionism of today.

There have been too many connections made to deny it, fob them off as 'in jokes' if you will, but I think that's a weak excuse.

But in the end as has been said, although they are, or at least were, linked they aren't 'officially' anymore. And there is no question of any crossovers in any real sense.

Bmaxwell
23-07-2005, 17:11
yea theres something there but it could aslo be that the warp can be a sort of half way world between different relites much how the astral is in D&D

Spooky
23-07-2005, 17:28
Liber Chaotic: Khorne has a significant section where the author of the book, his mind under the corruptive influence of Chaos, is granted horrifying visions of the future which he feels compelled to put to page.

He writes about the coming of the berserkers of Khorne, of the sundering of the great Legions of warriors, of the defense of the great palace by the "fists of man" (Imperial Fists) and other delights. The next chapter, after the visions are over, he is a bit more coherent and begins to write down the prelude to the end of all things. He details, precisely, Black Crusades and their leader "the Abandoned One", even recounting the recover of the demon sword Drach'nyen. All of this is prophecy, which barring some sort of warp-storm temporal flux, indicates to me that while Warhammer/Warhammer 40k occupy the same universe they don't necessarily occupy the same "time".

Brusilov
23-07-2005, 17:34
I'm sure this as been mentioned before, especially if MvS posted on this thread, but in case he did not, I'll post the opinion we share (more or less, there is bound to be variations).

The WH and 40k universes are not linked, at least not directly. That is the WH world is not some planet of the 40k galaxy isolated by warp storms. However both universes are part of the same multiverse.
A multiverse (another Moorcockian concept, some will say, 'how surprising coming from Brusilov :rolleyes: ') is an infinite number of interlinked universes, that may or not be directly connected (meaning it would be possible to travel from one to the other), and which shares the same set of general principles and in which, more or less identical species exist and the same cosmic forces struggle.

Thus both universes share the concepts of Chaos, the existence of the warp and even species that are very much alike, but there is no direct link between them. Albeit what happens in one could influence the other, this would be very minute at best.

The main link may be the Old Ones. When we thinking of the OO's polar portals in WH, we think of warp portals connection that world to other planets controlled by these mysterious beings. But instead, could it be that the portals connected different universes and that the dominion of the Old Ones extended not just to the WH world, but to 40k as well and possibly to quite a few other universes.

Bmaxwell
23-07-2005, 19:12
Brusilov you allways have a way of clearing up something like this

NakedFisherman
23-07-2005, 21:03
The connection is that 40K was originally just a cool spinoff from WHFB until it became its own game system. Even though Liber Chaotica books may be considered canon, the laspistol references and Albion items are quaint, fun references for people familiar with them and nothing more.

Officially, they are separate and will always remain separate. Allusions to connections are annoying to be ohnest.

Brusilov
23-07-2005, 21:25
Well Fisherman, the advantage of the multiverse is that you can make as much of a connection as you want. You can argue for the Old Ones travelling between both universes, or the races simply being the same because these are the rules the multiverse works by. For example the Moorcockian multiverse would more or else always have humans as one of the main species, as well as elves (but nothing akin to either Tolkien or WH elves mind you).

This approach has the double advantage of explaining the visions of Richard Kleist in Liber Chaotica while remaining within the constraints of establish fluff, and keeping the two of them clearly separate, meaning you will never see Space Marines invading the WH world (and that alone is a blessing).

MvS
23-07-2005, 23:18
With regards to the 'officialness' of the Liber Chaotica - it is as 'official' as anything else I guess. All information had to be approved before printing. Mind you, the subjective POV means that the Studio maintains wriggle room to agree, contradict or expand on the stuff as they feel is needed.

That's just the way it goes.

With regards to my own opinion of the links (if any) between WF and 40K - well in the Liber Chaotica I inherited the necessity to put 40K stuff in there as well as Fantasy. This was, I believe, just to give 'something for everyone', although readers of all 4 volumes will notice how I gradually dropped the 40K references, as I thought they weren't adding to the text.

This being said, Brusilov and I do share a kind of multiverse view of GW imagery. There is a connection of sorts, but having said that you'll never see Chaos Marines in Altdorf (ever!), and nor will you ever see Sigmar appearing as a lost Primarch in the Imperium. I just don't think the very hazy and tenuous connection it works that way.

I'll probably expand on this when I'm less tired...

:)

NakedFisherman
24-07-2005, 02:03
Well Fisherman, the advantage of the multiverse is that you can make as much of a connection as you want. You can argue for the Old Ones travelling between both universes, or the races simply being the same because these are the rules the multiverse works by. For example the Moorcockian multiverse would more or else always have humans as one of the main species, as well as elves (but nothing akin to either Tolkien or WH elves mind you).

This approach has the double advantage of explaining the visions of Richard Kleist in Liber Chaotica while remaining within the constraints of establish fluff, and keeping the two of them clearly separate, meaning you will never see Space Marines invading the WH world (and that alone is a blessing).

The problem of a multiverse is that the connection has no meaning and in many cases cheapens WHFB. I know I'm not alone when I say that the Albion items were funny for a short period of time but the joke has since died out, so to speak. And it's not going to be funny again, really.

40K came out around a time when GW was into this kind of silliness. 40K and WHFB require no connection and they gain nothing from one -- and at least in my opinion, shouldn't have one.

Brusilov
24-07-2005, 08:41
I don't see why the multiverse connection demeans WH. They are seperate but connected. The struggle between the forces of Chaos and those of Law is just as important there as it is in 40k, if not more so because in WH the races fighting Chaos have nowhere to run.

I would agree the connection would cheapen WH if it was nothing more than a world of the 40k galaxy, because who cares about one world in a galaxy of billions. But in the multiverse case, the only thing they share is a set of common rules and concepts. Frankly I don't see any problem with that.
The connection has meaning, it shows different places where the eternal struggle between Law and Chaos is taking place, as it would across the whole multiverse. The struggle in both 40k and WH are just as important, they decide the fate of these universes.

MvS
24-07-2005, 09:12
Indeed.

To say that there is a connection between the universes in the sense that all realities are connected distantly through the medium of the Warp doesn't have to cheapen WHF.

As Brus mentioned, it's all a matter of focus. If the Warhammer world was just another world somewhere on the rim of the Eye of Terror, then yes, the world would be miniscule and irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. But it isn't. In its own reality, the events on the Warhammer world are the most important and its fate dictates the fate of its reality. In the 40K reality it's the Imperium that is the most important thing with regards to the fate of the reality it exists within.

Granted, if we had heroes wandering through the Warp from one reality to another then there would definietly be some cheapening and cheesiness going on. But I don't see the rules as working that way. The gods are scuplted as much by the expectations and beliefs of mortals as much as anything else, as are its resources (to a degree) - hence the reason the Chaos Gods never send Space Marines against the Warhammer world.

Brusilov
24-07-2005, 11:40
There is also the possibility that the Gods themselves exist in multiple incarnations each in their own universe. I mean, there is nothing in the WH world pointing out to the catastrophic events of the birth of Slaanesh as it happened in 40k, no near extermination of an entire race to give birth to She-Who-Thirsts.
So the two universes are quite different.

Phunting
24-07-2005, 11:50
Well I for one don't even see why WW being a world within the EoT, or wherever, cheapens anything. My favourite game by a long way is Necromunda, but I don't think it is 'cheapened' by being a part of a larger universe. It is it's own universe, sure in terms of the universe it doesn't matter one iota if my Esher loose their precious Archeotech Horde, but so what? Does that make me less inclined to fight for it? Does it make it a less life and death situation for my gangers who know nothing of the wider universe? No. So who cares?

So equally does it matter that on a cosmic level the fate of the WW doesn't really matter? I don't think so. It matters to my Stirland Troops, and they are what matter in the game. And in fact equally what happens in the 40k universe doesn't matter to them either. The Imperium could be chomped by the Nids tomorrow nothing would change. So while they are linked (in my mind), in reality for either game nothing changes or is demeaned by this link.

Of course if the link ever amounted to more than the odd 'in-joke' then yeah, we'd have a problem. But it never really has, nor will it ever. So once again, who cares? Certainly not the characters we are emulating in the game, so why should we?

Brusilov
25-07-2005, 18:12
Because we're not simply impersonating the generals and troops we play, we are also gamers who can sit back and contemplate the background, assess it and judge it.
There is a big difference between Necromunda, where you fight for the survival of your warband, and WH where you fight for the fate of the world. It's not simply a difference of degree, it's a difference of nature. Necromunda, just like Mordheim, put you close to the action, so you care about every member of your band, but what you do is important to them.
WFB is about that yes, but mainly it is about the fate of the universe, about whether Chaos will engulf this world, and it cheapens this struggle to think that it would be a drop in the sea of the eternal wars of 40k.

Phunting
25-07-2005, 18:24
I take your point, but still remain un-swayed.

Even if the WW is in an separate universe, it is well documented that that universe has a vast universe of aliens in it as well. What happens to the WW doesn't effect that universe any more than it would the 40k universe, yet knowing that universe is out there doesn't demean the game.

I think I know what your response will be to this, and it is of course a fair point. However I still don't think it matters. :p I apologise for this pre-emptive debating but I am off on holiday tomorrow and so can't reply in person for a week. Have fun...

P

Brusilov
25-07-2005, 20:46
Well, to be honest, we don't know if there is a universe outside of the WH world. We know the Old Ones came to that planet, but we don't know where from. Was it to some other part of the WH universe, or was it from another universe altoghether.

In Moorcock's accounts of the universe, a world can in itself be the whole universe. And it would be particularly true in WH. After all, we don't quite know how much is known about astronomy. But if you take the belief that belief shapes reality, then it could be that the only thing that exists in the WH world is the sun, the two moons, the world and that the stars are not as we know them, other suns, but simply that, stars...

I know this sounds a little far fetched, but oh well :rolleyes:

MvS
25-07-2005, 22:05
There is also the possibility that the Gods themselves exist in multiple incarnations each in their own universe. I mean, there is nothing in the WH world pointing out to the catastrophic events of the birth of Slaanesh as it happened in 40k, no near extermination of an entire race to give birth to She-Who-Thirsts.
So the two universes are quite different.
Indeed so. As in the Moorcockian view, gods may have different histories and faces in different realities, and some may be of different power and so on. The gods may or may not be aware of this as well. What matters, I think, is that the reality the god tries to influence sculpts the god him or herself, to a degree at least.

Brusilov
25-07-2005, 22:18
Certainly, the Moorcockian example that springs to mind is Arioch, while quite powerful in Elric's story, he is relatively less mighty in Corum's saga.

And indeed the reality that the god tries to influence sculpts the god himself. After all, the gods try to spread the emotions they feed from and depending on local conditions this can have an effect on their 'psyche.'
The idea is that in 40k, humanity because of its sheer numbers has of late provided most the souls to the Chaos gods, slowly making them more humans (in the sense that each race feels the emotions from which the gods feed from differently, thus influencing their personality). In WH, while humans are again the most numerous, this is certainly not in the same proportions as in 40k and thus the gods have a somewhat different personality because of this.

f2k
26-07-2005, 09:15
Ok, my take on all of this (transferred from the ďAsk the CommissarĒ thread).

Brusilov, you make 2 claims, namely that: 1) a connection would cheapen the fantasy universe, and 2) itís all just a jokeÖ

As for the first point, I just canít see how. How is Fantasy cheapened by having such a connection? If this is the case, the games as Necromunda and GorkaMorka does the same in that they also take place on a much smaller level than the universe they are situated withinÖ

As for the second point, as Iíve already said: if this is a joke, then itís an official joke. Itís not just the in the Albion campaign that this can be found, but also in the current Amazon fluff. Not to forgot, of course, that it was complete canon during the early incarnations of the game. But, with the current trend of rewriting fluff, Iím not sure if that argument is valid.

Iím perfectly willing to accept the ďisolated by warpstormsĒ theory. It not only explains why the planet havenít already been colonized (itís isolated), but it also explains why 40K equipment can be found in limited numbers on the planet (hey, the warp is a strange place, who is to say that a Rouge Trader hasnít been blown off-course and stranded within the warpstorm?).

Also, the Old Ones are present in both worlds, and the ďPolar GatesĒ sounds awfully high-tech to me.

Brusilov
26-07-2005, 13:17
1) Have you not read my previous points on the matter of cheapening the WH world? I'll restate them. If WH is nothing that a world among many in the 40k universe then its fate matters not in the grand scheme of things. The core of the background for that game is the struggle against Chaos that threatens to overrun the world and drown it in a sea of madness and entropy forever.
And let's be honest, why would the Chaos take such a keen interest in a simple world isolated from the galaxy by warp storms?
If however the WH is its own separated universe with its local incarnation of the Chaos Gods, specific to that universe (remember I'm not denying a connection, I'm refusing the direct connection of WH being a world of 40k, I am for the multiverse connection). Then the struggle would take a more dramatic importance and the interest of the gods would be explained, this world is their only source of souls and emotions.

As to Necromunda and Gorkamorka, I've stated before they have nothing to do with the two main games. Their fluff scope is totally different. They are not about the cosmic struggle against Chaos, they are about the daily survival of a band of individuals set in the 40k universe. This is not a simple difference of degree but one of nature in the scope of the fluff.

And honestly, do you think that if you make the connection, the so called artefacts of the Old Ones on Albion do not seem a little poor to be creations of the most ancient race of the universe: power armour, powerfist, lightning claws, auspex... This is all Imperial equipment... Not the kind of things I'd expect from the Old Ones...

2) As to the officialness of such connection, it can be counter-argued that just as officially GW denied such connection, and did so expressely and quite clearly on several occasions. And this is particularly true of the so called Albion artefacts
So yes maybe it is a recent trend (and even then, how recent is it, a dozen years now...) but fluff changes are also for the better, and this is one of these cases.

I shall continue to battle the direct link between the two universes and promote the multiverse links that allow each universes to develop on its own, while being connected at a more metaphysical level.

On the matter of the Old Ones, I will take the example of Moorcock who has humans in most of the universes of his multiverse, but also elves (nothing akin to Tolkien elves though), that does not mean Elric's world is Corum's... There are also the same Chaos powers, just as Arioch...
But frankly the OO are a different case, because to me it is entirely possible they were native neither from 40k or from WH, but came from another universe altogether. The polar portals connected the OO to far away places but we don't know where or what.

f2k
26-07-2005, 14:21
Yes, Iíve read what youíve said before. And I still donít think that it makes much senseÖ

I always operate by the principle of KISS. If a simple warpstorm can adequately explain why there are Imperial artifacts on the Warhammer world, then Iíll much rather accept that explanation rather trying to formulate a complicated multiverse which, quite frankly, has no support in the fluff.

Also, I think youíre taking the scope of the Warhammer world to be much more than it really is. Itís like Cadia, a world that has been attacked by Chaos but still manages to hold on. Only difference is that Cadia has help, the Warhammer world has notÖ

As regards the Old Ones: I never claimed that they were behind the artifactsÖ

Iracundus
26-07-2005, 15:04
I would agree with the KISS principle above. I don't see why having the WH world as a world isolated by impenetrable warp storms demeans it in any way. I subscribe to the theory that it was a bastion of some Old Ones bringing samples of their subject races after the fall of their galactic civilization. As such, it can be expected that the Chaos Gods might take an especial interest in such a world. It is also a world with a wide variety of sentient races which itself is a curiosity.

Remember the Chaos powers can gamble over the fate of worlds in the Eye of Terror and set strange rules on themselves and their forces. The WH world, as a microcosm of the struggle against Chaos, would IMO have greater symbolic value and hence greater value as a wagering stake than some random daemon world in the Eye of Terror.

Why don't the Chaos powers just send Chaos Marines? Perhaps the saturation of the warp near the collapsed gate is too strong for anything resembling mortal life to pass through. Perhaps the Chaos gods have decided on a rule where no forces other than daemons and native troops can be used to fight on the WH world, as a sort of handicap to raise the value of the stakes further.

If the reference to N'kari in the old 2nd Ed. Chaos Codex is used to extrapolate the rough setting of the WH world with respect to the Imperium, the "current" WH world is set far in the Imperium's past as N'kari took part in the Horus Heresy. The entry in that Codex also says "The Chaos Powers have repeatedly made attempts to conquer this planet, but have so far been foiled by the uncorrupted peoples of this world." That statement is written from the then "current" 2nd edition of 40K, implying the WH world still stood against Chaos. If so, that would be the longest time a world would have been under continuous assault by Chaos (with an entrenched Chaos beachead) and still held out. That's better than Cadia or any other planet in the Imperium. I'd say that's very significant.

Sephiroth
26-07-2005, 15:15
How can they be connected? Eldar and Elves are nothing alike in psychology, while the Orks of 40K are nothing like the WHF versions in biology. Both bear a superficial resemblance, but the background on Orks and Eldar speaks for itself.

Seems it would take more effort to me, to give believe reasons why stranded Eldar would not have died quickly (check Eldar background) or that Orks would not have conquered the entire setting.

Brusilov
26-07-2005, 17:17
Sephiroth is quite right when he points out at strong differences between the races when you look at them closely. Moreover the timeline does not fit between the two universes, 60 million years took place between the end of the OO empire and current day (or the HH for that matter). And don't tell me about time distortion, this does not apply to a planet caught in a warp storm, it would require a real warp overlap and if it were the case the planet would be unhabitable.

And let's not mention the fact that humans were not even swinging from tree to tree at the time. So let's not even mention Dwarves or Halflings into the mix.

And personally, when it comes down to it, with the faith of the converted, I don't like the direct connection, nor do I care for simplicity.

The Inedible
27-07-2005, 06:23
I seem to side with a theory that whatever the separation between the 40k universe and the FB universe that the separation should not be as complete as people have previously theorized. For the most part I don't really like the idea that in a multiverse the chaos gods would have dopplegangers in each universe. To me I've never thought of the gods as a single entity so much as a greater will. Kind of like the hive mind but on a timeless and eternal scale. Gods like Khaine and the C'tan are corporeal and individual whereas the chaos gods (at least to my knowledge) never really manifested themselves to duke it out. Thus they seem to exist as wills rather than characters. Then again recursion of the gods in FB (espeically those like Khaine) could be an indicator that either the universes are the same and only gods can reach the warhammer world or that "gods" are the only entities capable of navigating the warp or whatever tenuous connection allows them to exist in both realities.

I also think that Richard Kleist's prophecies would not have to place the FB universe in the "past" of the 40k universe, rather the images could be a revelation of some sort, his mind was flooded with the truth of another existance rather than images of the future.

I support the idea of the Warhammer World being one of the many amongst the 40k universe. But not necessarily that the planet is even in space anywhere near the rest of 40k. It is my understanding that the universe in 40k has not been completely explored, not by a long shot at least, as such the slann could have experimental planets tucked away where existance may never find them. The magic of the slann is also known to be great, time distortion could be possible on a very small scale, or simply jumping between universes in the multiverse would also prove as solution to their 60 million years in an instant kind of jump.

Brusilov
27-07-2005, 08:36
Pointing out at Khaine demonstrates again that the WH world could not be part of the 40k universe. The Eldar gods are very much alive and kicking in the WH world, not only Khaine, who could not his influence felt in WH, if the events took place after the Fall, because the remnants of his essence not torn between Slaanesh and Khorne would be trapped in its shards within the Craftworlds. The rest of the Eldar gods would have been devoured by Slaanesh (or turned into Keepers of Secrets if you like the greater secret theory).

If the events of WH take place before the Fall, then Slaanesh is not a major player and her influence is very limited, which is obviously not the case in WH today, as it is more or less the equal of the other Big Three.

So, again, this demonstates the innanity of the idea of linking 40k and WH in the direct manner people seem to think of.

Iuris
27-07-2005, 09:24
On this topic I'll disagree with mr. Brusilov.

In my opinion, what we have is the problem of products preceding the need to provide an expansive and concise background. The elements of WHFB were simply translated into a SCI-FI setting to create a new interesting product. In this time period, the attitude of the creators was comparatively more creative, fun oriented and less, er, sane. As a side effect, several minor linking elements were introduced. From N'kari to the Old ones.

Later, however, both products expanded way beyond the original scope and a new direction was chosen in the background material of both products. Things changed. Both products have had their backgrounds revised to make it more serious, more credible and more consistent. Internal divisions within the "races" were stressed, politics were introduced, private agendas flourished.

Within this context, a sizeable retcon was also executed. Things that interfered with the new background were silently removed from the spotlight. Zoats, Squats, Fimir, you name it. In this context, the background connection between the two products became inconvenient and was downplayed. Since it was never a product or a firm element in the backgorund, there was not even any need for the Tyranids to eat it.


Why this huge tirade? Because the real life situation explains the lack of material and the GW attitude towards it. It's not a question of whether the two products share a universe or a multiverse. GW does not want to put any official credibility to the link.


Personally, I would propose the following "interpretation" to keep both universes even and linked:

While the galaxy spanning empire of the Old ones has fallen millions of years ago, not all the Old ones died with it. The survivors of the enslaver wars and the warp cataclysms may not have been able to reform a galactic empire, but tried what they could to survive.
One group of these considered chaos the primary threat, probably because the C'tan were dormant. Thus, they chose a planet, either selected for its isolation or artificially isolated from the rest of the universe. There, they established a base and began to reposition the planet and modify its tectonic structure in order to make it Earth-like. Multiple races from the rest of the galaxy were gathered, removing their technology in the process. Humans are seen as the center element of the attempt, as their planet of origin is being replicated. The old ones' colony may have been rather recent and the ascendant power of humanity in the form of the Imperium may have been recognized. An element of the attempt is to get the races to cooperate against chaos and to harden them against the effects of chaos.
And it's working. For example, N'kari (possibly the creation of Malekith, though he is actually probably just the greatest thing Malekith ever summoned) is a demon lord of considerable power in 40K, yet is defeated several times by Elven champions. Imagine the effects of an open warp gate on any 40K world (Tallarn comes to mind) and considering the technology, the Warhammer world is putting up quite a fight.

Inquis. Jaeger
27-07-2005, 10:09
Thats an interesting and coherent theory Iuris, but doesn't explain why the Chaos powers don't send modern forces against it. Having a better understanding and control of the tides of the Warp would mean the Ruinous Powers would be able to interfere utilising M.41 technology, even if said world was cut off by warp storms.

BTW: Is your name related to Roman Law in any way? I had to study that last year - Iuris means law/justice (of a basic kind)

Iracundus
27-07-2005, 11:26
Read my post. I suggested right there why the Chaos Powers don't send Chaos Marine forces.

Luris's setup for the WH/40K interaction is basically the same as mine. Just a sidenote though: N'kari is a former mortal of the WH world that was elevated to be a daemon. It seems for whatever whim, Slaanesh chose to transform him into a form just like that of a Keeper of Secrets.

The entry on N'kari says he is from a world isolated from the rest of the galaxy by impenetrable warp storms. Warp storms going nonstop for several millenia? Sounds to me like Old One machinery keeping it going...or maybe it's those Slann rituals.

Inquis. Jaeger
27-07-2005, 11:39
Okay, so you are suggesting that either

a) the Realm of Chaos in the vicinity of the Polar Gate is too magical/Chaotic for anything mortal to pass through or

b) the Chaos Gods have deliberately limited their power/forces on this world, in some kind of unfathomable logic.

Well a) is not really a valid reason, as although the polar Warp Gate acts as a conduit to the Warp, mortal Chaos forces in M.41 have plenty of other means of getting to a world. If it really wanted to, there would not be anything to stop a Chaos God lending his influence to a couple of ships full of his followers, ensuring a safe trip through the warp to the near vicinity of the Warhammer World, resulting in hundreds of thousands of Chaos followers overrunning said world.

Therefore, b must apply. I do most definitely agree with you that the Chaos Gods are completely undiscernable by mortal standards, and their plots and agreements between each other are not obvious to mortal ability to comprehend. However, if that is the case, and they have deliberately limited their power for some reason, what would be so important that they do this on this world, when on the vast majority of worlds they seek only to destroy and kill, eventually satisfied when that world and all its inhabitents exist purely for the glory of Chaos? Why allow the Chaos Incursions in WHFB to be defeated?

Shas'o'Fior
27-07-2005, 11:39
umm....n'kari? whats that? (in WH40k universe)

Iuris
27-07-2005, 11:51
Wow, someone actually read what I wrote.

Why no guns? Well, apparently there used to be. Ask some longtime players, I heard chaos warriors once could get guns, at least if they got lucky. More likely, however, the Chaos marines are:
A) prevented from entering by protetive mechanisms of some sort
B) too far, if the Warhammer world is indeed in another galaxy or even universe, allowing only demons to pass
C) the chaos powers want a challenge. I remember a quote of a chaos champion along the lines of "there are millions of planets in this galaxy, but this is the one I chose and I'll keep at it until I conquer it"

For M'kari, I do not deny his mortal origin, it is stated in the 40K rules for him. However, I also remember that one of the High Elven stories about one of the battles, the Tyrion&Teclis one, I think, mentions Malekith sending his greatest creation - N'kari - on the attack. I think this still just means N'kari is the biggest thing Malekith ever summoned, though.


As for my forum name, indeed it does have some roots in Roman law. Iuris is the genitive of ius, law/right/justice in Latin, and as I studied law, I found that my real name Jure Simich can be warped and contracted a bit into it. It also has a nice sound to it. Fascinating thing, roman law. The concept of "ius respondendi" is fascinating...

Iracundus
27-07-2005, 12:01
Read the original Realms of Chaos, and also the Liber Chaotica Slaanesh where it is repeated. The Chaos Gods do impose seemingly arbitrary even nonsensical rules at times. The following quote from the Liber Chaotic/Realms of Chaos is below. One might ask why they wish to handicap themselves. Perhaps there is greater glory attached to final victory if achieved under handicap. Perhaps it is simply the "rules" for the wager on this particular world. It is known the Chaos gods can impose similar rules when wagering over daemon world fights.


As daemon faces daemon and champion faces champion and the very earth quakes with fear and dread, the Four Powers pass down rituals to bind their cohorts. Like skilful and pedantic advocates in a court of law, the Dark Lords argue the smallest point, the most obscure procedures, and least significant of details, vying with one another for even the slightest advantage.

Sometimes the ritual is of great import, using forbidden sorcery or enchanted weapons, or maybe weapons of iron, steel, or wood might be abolished so that only the 'natural' claws and teeth of the combatants might be used. Yet other times the rituals seem petty and beneath contempt, with certain colour garments and armour disallowed from the field of battle. Sometimes the rituals seem to defy all logic, as when killing and bloodshed are forbidden. But in the immeasurable minds of the Chaos Gods there is always and purpose and reason for everything, thought it may be unfathomable to any but themselves.

Iuris
27-07-2005, 12:05
Ah, what is N'kari.

In the 2nd Ed Codex: Chaos, three types of army lists were described, the marine list, the cultist list and the demon world list. The last described the armies of demon worlds, as they fight in the EOT for the glory of the chaos gods, including such things as beastmen, chaos warriors (not marines), minotaurs, ogres and tons of demons (2nd Ed demons, that is). Each was supposed to be led by a demon prince, a monstrously powerful entity a grade above even greater demons. They were supposed to be special characters, and four were presented as examples, one for each chaos god. Ld 12 Doombreed, W 18 Foulspawn, Ld 11 N'kari and, er, wasn't the last one the arch enemy of Captain Stern, wotshisname? hid in the army? They were the most powerful things ever observed in WH40K.

N'kari was the slaaneshi demon prince. Statlines of eights and sevens, leadership 11 (yep, eleven. Doombreed had 12...), walked around with a rod made of bloodthirster spines, etc. Sworn enemy of Khorne, of course, but it was also mentioned that he did fight together with Doombreed under Horus. The background also specified he was once a mortal from an isolated world that had so far valiantly resisted invasion after invasion.



In WHFB, we once again meet N'kari in service to Malekith, the Witch king of Naggaroth, Lord of the Dark elves. Apart from being sent after the fugitive Tyrion and Everqueen and getting throrughly smitten by Teclis (I hope I remember this correctly), we find little.



However, the guy, er, gal, er, critter is one of the few links between the universes.

Iracundus
27-07-2005, 12:28
N'kari also most recently faced off against Tyrion in that story about a battle on the Isle of Khaine. Once again he gets banished, this time by the simple procedure of being hit on the head by a sword.

Inquis. Jaeger
27-07-2005, 13:42
As to the unfathomableness, that was the exact point I was making, and (kinda) referring to (but well done for typing it all up). Have we found the heart of your argument then? That the Warhammer World exists in the 40k World, sealed off by warp storms from the attentions of the Imperium and likewise free from meddling by the Chaos Gods because they have imposed seemingly odd and arbitrary rules on the world.

Seems fair enough to me.

So why don't others interfere? Orks can't because they use the warp in the same fashion the Imperium does (albeit without Navigators), The WHFB world must be sealed off/forbidden/abandoned by the Eldar Webway, else they would have visited. How do the Necrons travel through space? I confess to know nothing of this topic. Presumably, if it is somewhere near the Eye of Terror, the Nids and Tau haven't reached that far, which accounts for pretty much all the major races.

Iuris
27-07-2005, 14:11
It exists just as much as the squats and zoats do - a sort of a ghost.

Iracundus
27-07-2005, 14:46
The collapse of the polar gates (read Webway exit) pretty much stops Eldar interference.

Captain Blood
27-07-2005, 20:10
The collapse of the Polar gates happens roundabouts 10,000 years ago, IIRC, which seems awfully coincidential to me. As for the location of the planet, i get the feeling that it's right dead centre of a massive warp storm, like the Eye of Terror. I'm not sure if that really makes sense though, since that would mean the Eldar would have had access to the planet around that time. Unless it were protected by the Slaan/Old Ones.

Brusilov
27-07-2005, 21:05
Not possible that the Old Ones would be preventing the Eldar from accessing it if they so wished, they had either devolved or been wiped out long ago...

sanctusmortis
27-07-2005, 22:02
The last I remember:

*The Warhammer World is in the Tempestus Segmentum hidden by warp storms caused by the collapse of the gates.
*Sigmar is the Astral Sharks Primarch.
*Rogue Trader crossed over a lot with Warhammer, as did the two original chaos books Slaves to Darkness and Lost and the Damned.

That's the last lot of connections I had heard of.

Iracundus
27-07-2005, 23:59
The collapsed polar gates are now a direct opening into the warp. If they were Webway exits they're now destroyed. The Eldar of the present seem to know how to seal and destroy Webway exits but not how to construct new ones.

Who is to say the rituals practicsed by the Old Ones or their now degenerate descendants the Slann aren't keeping the planet sealed off or the Webway exit closed? The Slann may not understand fully what they're doing anymore just like the Adeptus Mechanicus but that doesn't mean it can't still work.

Captain Blood
28-07-2005, 00:12
That reminds me of a summer campaign that was done a few years back involving the Lizardmen. The gist of it was that the Slann needed the recover some of their Lustrian pyramids that had been lost, and more specifically, the golden plaques that were in them. The whole point of it was to prevent the Chaos that was sweeping out the ruined polar gates from consuming the world. The Slann may not know what the point of their rituals are for, but they know it needs to be done. It there is a connection, the Mage-Priests are doing a good job of keeping the door as shut as can be.

Castigator
28-07-2005, 06:03
Sorry, but your all wrong.

In truth, the 40.000 Universe is an experimental device, held within a mighty crystal sphere in one of the darkest cellars below the University College of Nuln.

The Idea behind the experiment, was trying to predict which forces would eventually prevail in the Warhammer World - or more specifically, if the Empire would eventually be able to rise above the rest.
To achieve this, the High Wizard personally added some Warpstone, a drop of elven blood, powdered lichbone, etc.. to represent the different factions and races, and .. it is rumored .. a Hair of Sigmar himself from an old artifact to represent humanity. (The term 40.000 is actually a reference to the amount of gold the University had to spend to get the experiment going)

Than, they magically accelerated time within the sphere and waited.

Unfortunately though, there were some problems.
The dwarfen essence they added for example, while initially creating a dwarf-like race in the sphere, was eventually rejected, it is thought because of the magic resistance of dwarfs and simply blinked out of existence.
When a little beetle fell into the setup on the other hand, it created a whole new race half-way through the experiment.

In the end, the High Wizard of Nuln decided to discontinue the experiment because of these deviations and also, because the results on humanities final destiny were rather inconclusive. Therefore, they carried the sphere down into the deepest vaults of the college, where it rests more or less forgotten till today.

Captain Blood
28-07-2005, 06:33
Ummm... where exactly did you get that from? The RoC books state the the Warhammer World is located in the galaxy of the 41st millenium, something that has since fallen by the wayside perhaps, but to my knowledge hasn't been superceded except by the statement that the two games are no longer connected, and even then, the artifacts of the Albion campaign throw that into question.

Inquis. Jaeger
28-07-2005, 08:35
Sounds like the Unseen University's experiment with 'Roundworld' in the 'Science of the Discworld' books :D :D

Iuris
28-07-2005, 09:07
Say, I got an idea:

How about we say the Warhammer world emigrated from the 40K universe for economic reasons?

Bubble Ghost
28-07-2005, 09:51
and even then, the artifacts of the Albion campaign throw that into question.

No they don't. The real answer is that these items are just a bit of fun, but there's an anal, letter-of-the-text answer as well if you really need one: Warhammer features some magical items and spells that deactivate other magical items. This includes the Albion items. Also, only magical weapons can harm ethereal creatures, and again this includes Albion magic weapons. So the Albion items can't be technological 40K items, because if they were, these spells wouldn't work on them and they couldn't harm ethereal creatures. But they can. So they aren't.

The End.


Castigator: you've got it backwards. In truth, the entire Warhammer world is actually one of several million Warhammer worlds that exists in a petri dish belonging to a Magos Biologis on Mars. They are being developed as a form of pathogen weapon that will turn any creature into a gibbering wreck, trapped in an eternal cycle of wondering things about wargame backgrounds and feeling a compulsive desire to look up the answers.

MvS
28-07-2005, 18:29
Bubble Ghost, both you and Castigator are correct, and yet not. Because a wave can be a particle and a particle a wave and that cat most certainly isn't dead, unless it is, but in which case we would have to look at it to check, which would spoil the whole experiment.

Or prove it.

I forget.

And anyway, I'm Sigmar and I've never controlled a Space Marine Chapter, unless I did and can't remember, but whatever the case it's a moot point because now I'm dead. Or a god. Or both.

Gosh this is an interesting debate.

I think I'll go to bed.