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Xzazzarai
05-12-2007, 20:30
I'm going to start a High Elf army.
I've decided about characters (Prince + Stardragon and 2 lvl2's)
I have some ideas for what to pick as special (SM, DP and some more. Prolly another unit of cav and/or WL and/or PG) and the rares are full (2 RBTs, 2 eagles)
2250 list.

But the core choices... I really can't decide!

I'm only gonna use 2 core units, to further boost the elite-spirit of the army.
I'm thinking about going as low on core as possible, taking 2x10 archers. That'll boost my ranged attacks, which I think I will need, and it aint very expensive, which leaves more pts for specials.
On the other hand, I need some numbers to. I don't think a couple of small elite infantry units can hold up against a horde army. Therefor I might replace a unit of archers with 20 spears. That gives me a pretty good mix of core units.
Or, I can use the Lothern Sea Guard. They have a bit shorter range than the standard archer, but fight as well in combat as the spearmen - at a higher point cost.
2 units of 15 LSG might do the trick, but that's about 100 pts more then it'd be if i used 20 separs and 10 archers. But, they can quickly adept at the situation.
Do you think the LSG can make their +4 pts back from shooting, compared to the spears?
If I go with LSG, I'll need to reform pretty much sience they'll function as both shooting and a ranked CC unit. Which will decrase their Movement speed, and that's never a good thing in an allmost allways outnumbered army such as mine.
Maybe I can use one unit of either spears or archers, and one of LSG?

So, I really need som advice here sience I really can't decide.
And yes, the best thing'd prolly be to put it to the test at the table. But I haven't got the army yet, and I want your opinions!

marv335
05-12-2007, 23:04
I like Seaguard.
they are the same cost as an archer (if you include the cost of the armour) and can provide decent ranged fire while also being a fairly solid combat unit.
I rarely field an army without them.
I field them in a 7x3 block (preferably on a hill) with a noble wielding a great weapon and the reaver bow.
It's a fairly solid block.

Nabeshin1106
06-12-2007, 00:49
I take a block of 20 Spearmen with full command and the Banner of Ellyrion. I attach my characters on foot to the unit and it does pretty good.

I haven't tested out Sea Guard, but they don't fit my army theme, so I don't think I will.

Unwise
06-12-2007, 01:55
I think it can be a mistake to not take spearelves against some foes. They are actually more killy than WL against many enemies and almost always more killy than PG. They can weather casualties alot better than SM too.

Spearelves just require you to match them up with the right opponent, if you do they can easily bring 22 attacks to bear. The fact they are S3 will not matter much against weaker opponents.

I don't have much of a place for LSG in my army. If there is no hill, their usefulness is severly hampered. If they can sit on a hill, shoot for a couple of turns, reform then recieve a charge they have done their job well. The problem is though, I don't think HE can afford to be that defensive. Most armies can outshoot HE, even orcs and goblins can bring more firepower to bear than most shooty HE armies.

So what do LSG do if you are forced to advance? I can't think of a viable option for them in an offensive list or a list that has been forced to be offensive.

Fate
06-12-2007, 02:45
From my point of view, Archers are the best, not that they actually are good, but with so many things to spend your points the last thing where you should place points is the core units, so just use 2 units of archers which are cheap, can take out light cavalary and maybe warhamchine crew. Forget about how long they might last, just take whatever costs less points for core.

Chiungalla
06-12-2007, 06:25
With 1.200+ points in characters and rare choices, and expensive whishes for the special section: go for archers, to keep it cheap!

p3990013
06-12-2007, 13:27
2x10 archers are a pain for me.

Spearmen are a unit that I never have any problems dealing with it, it's fairly weak vs chariots, cavalry and missiles.

Sea guard are way too expensive for what they do.

But the damned archers will be shooting me every turn, unless I dedicate a flying unit to take them out...

Chiungalla
06-12-2007, 13:50
... and even this will not work any more, with allways strikes first. ;-)

Xzazzarai
06-12-2007, 15:01
That depends on what that flying thing is... If it's harpies - no big deal. If it's a dragon - the archers are toast. ^^

Very well. Most of ya tend to say 2x10 archers. Some say spears and only one recommends the LSG.
So, 2x10 archer or 10 archers and 20 spears...
I'll try to complete my list to see what I really need the most, then I'll come back to ya with this.

Thx for the halp everyone! =)

Zoolander
06-12-2007, 20:01
I also agree with 2x10 archers. Coupled with one or two RBTs, and you have some very nasty shooting going on. LSG are a little overpriced, and I don't find them worth it on average.

maswalaki
06-12-2007, 23:10
I usually field LSG, but always 3x18, and very few elite things (usually 2-3-4 unit SW of 5). That works most times, even if overpriced. In an assault army I never use them, for reasons explained above.
(and: for me, we can be good in defensive action, just use lots of magic, shooting, and SW&Reavers&Eagle -cheap- as diversion)

Wreckage
07-12-2007, 01:41
Seaguard are way overpriced.

You can have two units of 15 Seaguard w/cmd for 440pts

Or you could have two units of 15 Spearmen w/cmd and one unit of 10 Archers for 430pts

Not to mention seguard bows are shorter range and you'd be hard pressed to get all the models shooting.

One unit of Spearmen and one of Archers is the way to go.

English 2000
07-12-2007, 12:18
I run 2 units of 17 spears (one with war banner) in my 2k army.
One protects a level 2 mage the other is joined by my general (Noble with great weapon, hvy armour, mask of the merlord and ring of fury - I don't use lords in my Elf army).

They are both fantastic units and take quite a beating despite their fragile stats if you get the 5+ ward save spell off.

To give some examples they hold up well to kroxigors, ogres (the ones with the great weapons), Saurus, chaos warriors, chaos knights. Against anything T3 with poor armour save (gobbos, empire foot sloggers, skaven, peasants) they are pure gold!!

I wouldn't go to war without my spear blocks.

10 Archers - they can't do anything a RBT can't do - the only difference is that you need a more substantial unit to deal with them and can claim table quarters. I would rather spend my points on RBTs for the better shooting and single bolt option.

Chiungalla
07-12-2007, 12:33
That would be right, if the qestion was "Take archers or repeater boldthrowers". But you can take both.

p3990013
07-12-2007, 12:54
Let's not forget archers are core, not rare and should be judged as such... So when pitted against spearmen they are more useful.

Spearmen may well not fight in any battle. Archers will be an active unit during every turn of the battle.

Xzazzarai
07-12-2007, 13:08
So how about going for 18-21 spears and 10 archers?
I think there can be some troubles with getting 2x10 archers and 2 RBT to shoot each ronds, due to LOS issues.
Have you had any difficulties with LOS in situations like this? Yeah, I know it depends on the terrain, but generally?

Which unit is the best to have the mages in? Spears or archers?
I don't wanna put the mages with my elite units, sience they are all ready hot targets for shooting and magic. It find it better to spread things out, giving the enemy a bunch of decent targets, rather than 1 or 2 really juicy.
And no, I don't count the Dragon here... ^^

p3990013
07-12-2007, 14:43
Well we play 2000 points per side on a 52x84" board and LOS is not an issue. Of course my opponent does not make heavy use of bolt throwers, maybe only one and his main shooting are 2x10 archers, one unit on the left and one on the right.

He has one wizard and one hero who becomes a wizard via a magic item. They are both mounted on elven steeds to quickly get inside range of their spells.

If you would include spearmen , I'd say why not include a mage inside that unit? 19 spearmen and a wizard are not a great offensive threat, so you can keep casting your spells with avoiding much attention.

redbaron998
07-12-2007, 19:04
LSG are not overpriced (but dont kid yourself, they come stock with shields)

The beauty of LSG is that they can stand alone against all but a determined assault. Although I would rather include them in games where I only need 1 choice, or if I plan to not have the other core with them

So in like a 2k game where you can more afford to have something stand back and secure your RBTs and any archers.

The problem is that most dont want just spear elves to hang back that might not acheive anything if the enemy doesnt try to take down your artillary.

Soo instead of Spearelves that might never be used, or archers that cant stand against a dedicated assault, you can get some archers that are capable of holding the line.

That being said Seaguard are meant to be deployed in 3+x6 or 7 that way on a hill they can throw out a respectable 12 shoots and you dont have to reform them to be effective. So yea its more expensive than just one unit of the other two choices, but no you dont need anyone to stay back, as the LSG can protect your artillary from the enemy.

Now when you are above 2k, I see a unit or two of archers and a unit of spearelves (at least 18) with your RBTs and you will have a very firm and protected base for your army. Throw in characters and specials to go out and do damage and jobs a good un.



So dont listen to those who say that one unit is better than another, they all have thier uses and are equally respectable choices

Sigmar
07-12-2007, 21:47
You definitely need to go for the Lothern Sea Guard. Keep your focus on combat (3 ranks of spears !), bow fire is an added bonus.

Xzazzarai
08-12-2007, 09:45
Bow fire is an added bonus that comes at a price of +4 pts/model...

I don't think I'll be using the LSG.

Chiungalla
08-12-2007, 12:38
That being said Seaguard are meant to be deployed in 3+x6 or 7 that way on a hill they can throw out a respectable 12 shoots and you dont have to reform them to be effective. So yea its more expensive than just one unit of the other two choices, but no you dont need anyone to stay back, as the LSG can protect your artillary from the enemy.

It's nearly as expensive as fielding 10 archers and 18 spear elves.

So they are no good choice, because fielding both the other will work better nearly all the time.

brambleten
08-12-2007, 15:01
i would take a unit of 10 archers and then 14/15 spears. if you take the 14, stick a mage in with them to get the 15 guys.
or, you could just take 10 spears, basic, for 90 pts, and hide them somewhere, claiming a table edge. yes, they wont doo much, but then again, they dont gie many vps away to the enemy, and thats points you can spend elsewhere in the army

English 2000
08-12-2007, 17:06
i would take a unit of 10 archers and then 14/15 spears. if you take the 14, stick a mage in with them to get the 15 guys.
or, you could just take 10 spears, basic, for 90 pts, and hide them somewhere, claiming a table edge. yes, they wont doo much, but then again, they dont gie many vps away to the enemy, and thats points you can spend elsewhere in the army

I prefer to win my games by killing the enemy, not by cowering in a corner :p

ArnhemKnight
09-12-2007, 21:53
There's only three Core choices. How hard can it be to pick the ones you like!?

Seriously, though, I like spearmen. With ASF and Martial Prowess the spearmen will get in a healthy dose of attacks at decent WS before the enemy can do a thing. They're fairly inexpensive and can get some good combat resolution scores. Throwing in a Noble makes them very dangerous.

Archers aren't bad but probably won't break any games for you unless you take a ton of them. I use them to reduce light cavalry flankers and similar light troops. Their long range gives them an advantage over run-of-the-mill archers and handgunners.

The jury is still out on Sea Guard. They strike me as primarily defensive troops. I just bought a unit from a local gamer, so I'll try them out (I will probably remodel them as spearmen). The problem is they're cost forces them to be a smaller unit than spearmen and thus won't get as good a combat resolution. They also lack the range of archers. I prefer a specialist unit that I can dedicate to a single task.


So, in short, I prefer spearmen.