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happy_doctor
05-12-2007, 23:39
What do I mean by the title?

Well, after having read the recent reports from the UKGT heats, and having witnessed the sheer cheesyness of the majority of armies in a local tournament, I had this idea:

The way to convince someon to NOT play an overpowering / boring / point-and-click army is to show him that he can win using just a nice,fluffy army as well. My quest begins here, then...I want you all to give me your insight on how i could improve the list given below, without using the cheesy elements of the Army List. The goal would be to enter the next local tournament and perform more than fairly well (which i normallly do), making it to the top 5 for example.

As a disclaimer, people have won GT's with fluffy armies, so this isn't a fantasy or anything... Remember the guy who won using a common goblin army? Well, it would be great if people won because they played well, and not because they chose to field Karl Franz on a dragon and 2 Panzers... :cheese:

So, without further ado, here is the list:

Heroes:
-Slann Mage-Priest, 4th Gen, BSB, Diadem of power, Plaque of tepok, dispel scroll
-Skink Priest, level 2

Core:
-20 Saurus Warriors, full command
-19 Saurus Warriors, full command
-10 Skink Skirmishers, blowpipes
-10 Skink Skirmishers, blowpipes
-10 Skink Skirmishers, blowpipes

Special:
-4 Kroxigors
-6 Saurus Cavalry
-3 Terradons

Rare:
-Stegadon
-3 Salamanders


So, first things first:
1)Would you consider this list overpowering/unimaginative/hard? If so, why?
2)What do you think would be its greatest drawback?

The plan:
The centre is taken up by the saurus warriors, just to ensure that they'll get into combat eventually. The stegadon provides extra-punch and acts like a fire-magnet. Salamanders are there to protect against flyers/cavalry and whittle the enemy's numbers down quickly. They stay close to the Slann, to benefit from his Ld. Terradons hunt warmachines and mages, but are in no way a sacrificial unit; They begin close to the slann as well, in order to counter those panic tests that might make them fly for the hills :). Kroxigors and saurus cavalry provide a cheap-ish and reliable flanking task-force. Finally, skinks do what they always do best:pick soft targets (no armour), march-block and harass the enemy in general.
The magic phase isn't the equivalent of a 2nd gen slann, but it shouldn't be.. With a maximum of 10 power dice per turn, low casting cost spells are the way to go. They can be used to neutralize threats to the army (ex. flyers, warmachines, fast cavalry), but will not win games on their own.. I find the slann greatly augmented by the presence of the skink priest, mainly due to the telepathy rule.

After having read the battle plan:
3) Is it a solid build/viable plan?
4)Could it topple WANCer armies, provided it's played with skill?

General c&c:
5) What would you change in this list and why?
6) Do you think the lack of a JSoD is too much? It's just that the theme is to use as many unused/"worthless" tournament-wise units as possible (warriors, cavalry without huanchi's banner, stegadons)...

Semi_Bunny
10-12-2007, 01:10
That list actually looks pretty similar to mine doctor, though you've played me before online so I guess you would know. It looks fairly good from my standpoint, what I do is just field one of my skinks as scouts, have a JSoD, and 1 less Kroxigor and Salamander, though frankly your list is looking better than mine at the moment. It should do fine without the JSoD from waht it has provided the Terradons can handle the war machine hunting well and you dont need anything to smash chariots. I dont see many drawbacks and the list looks fairly balanced, though then again you know I'm not the most experienced veteran of fantasy so you might want to look for some more opinions. Anyway I hope I was of some help.

Edit: Oh you might consider fielding the units of saurus in 6x3 formation, it's worked out fairly well for me becaues it frees up some points (you can use them to add some spawnings if you want) and gives you more attacks.

RaZeR
10-12-2007, 01:21
1) The list is very balanced :)
2) It doesn't have a glaring weakness, more of an overall lack of domination in any particular phase, which may end up being a problem...

3) The battle plan seems viable, and fit's your list well. (see 4)
4) I suspect you'll struggle against all-out magic or gunline armies. Even if the slann goes in a unit of saurus, a gunline will eat you pretty quickly. You rely too much on 1 unit of terradons for war-machine hunting, and while they're good, they're probably not enough against a gunline. Having said that, if you come up against a RAF or a Khorne knight of doom army, they're pretty much ok, but you'll get eaten in H2H... The main problem you have is that it's almost impossible to counter ALL the uber-army options...

5) Personally I'd go with a second gen slann. If you're going to put all those points into a slann, go all the way, and dont risk it on a dodgy miscast! ;) You could probably get the point by dropping the cav to 5, and dropping the krox to 3 (I generally run krox in 3s anyway, as they;re more manoueverable, and therfore better for flanking.
6) You should get away without a JSOD (although they are fun :)), if you play the list well and use the terradons and krox properly. It may be worth making one of the skink units into scouts, incase they're needed to back up the terradons.

Semi_Bunny
10-12-2007, 02:22
Yeah I agree with what razer is saying about the balance, when I play against my high elf friend who is all about bringing magic and heavy hitting units (dragon princes, chariots, etc), I have trouble because his units tend to win in close combat 1v1 and I dont have amount of units to outnumber and outflank him effectively like a horde army. I guess thats the real problem of the balanced lizardmen army, no strengths but no weaknesses. I suppose though if you play your cards right tactics-wise, you can beat the all-out shooting or magic armies and you'll end up using a new strategy each battle.

If you were to go with the 2nd gen slann, it would probably mean changing your whole army composition by adding TG and making it more magic heavy and centered around him, with less saurus and more skinks/special units. This strategy is pretty common in tournament type armies but I guess thats the thing you were trying to avoid.

p3990013
10-12-2007, 10:38
Sorry to say this, but there is no cure for over-competitive players...
Find the right players that share the same mentality with you...

happy_doctor
10-12-2007, 19:59
Hey! Thanks for the response, everyone!

Semi_Bunny: True, the list is similar to yours! (pure coincidence, no IP infringement there! :P ) I'll try the spawning idea and let you know.. On the unit size:I find that saurus are left pretty much unharmed for the first few turns, due to the presence of other elements. Consequently,having blocks of 5x4 will help a lot with static Combat Resolution... However, the damage potential is greater with the 6x3 block; I'll just have to try this, as well!

Razer: Thank you for your spot-on comments!
As far as the slann is concerned, he's 4th Generation, so miscasts aren't an issue. The combined cost of the slann and priest equal a fully kitted-out 2nd Generation Toad, but then the whole list (and philosophy) must change. I'd have to field a unit of Temple Guard to keep him safe, and drop one rare choice. The most I could do to boost my magic phase would be taking the plaque of Dominion (AKA power familiar). Would that work, and what should i drop?
Would the problem against gunlines be solved by upgrading one or two of the skink units to scouts? Then, I'd be able to put some pressure on the warmachines early on.

p3990013: Ahhh, the awful truth :) That's what I do at my local gaming club...I'd like to do so at a tournament as well, however... Tourneys are the perfect place to meet new players and see their point of view on some matters... But waking up at 7 o'clock on a sunday morning just to walk in the venue and find a cheesefest waiting isn't my definition of fun... Hence, the whole idea!

p3990013
10-12-2007, 20:21
Oh doctor, I'm from Athens too. I think I know which local club you mean. I know exactly which army lists you face there. That's why I keep clear off tourneys and stick to friendly battles. Good luck changing these peoples' minds ;)

happy_doctor
11-12-2007, 23:21
***********************UPDATE********************* ******

I have a battle report from the first few trial games with this list: I just got my behind handed to me by a really nice fellow with a brillian strategic mind (well, that makes the massacre sound less dissapointing, doesn't it :) ). He employed a VC combat heavy army with 2 big units of Black Knights.. The game was over in turn 4, when he ran over my slann and bodyguard with his knights. You can find his list here http://www.mousillon.com/

What i noticed is:
-The army can't handle large amounts of fear as well as i hoped it would.

-Combat monstrosities such as the Blood Dragon Vampire Lord have no match in my army, and can cause me serious trouble.

-My magic capacity is less than impressive, I'll probably have to swap the diadem of power with the plaque of dominion,for a more steady magic supply.

-I probably have one more combat unit than necessary...In the last few games, saurus cavalry remain idle for the larger part of the battle, as they are fairly easy to avoid/marchblock. I've been thinking whether it would be better if i included something else instead of them. ( a second unit of terradons or a JSoD for example?)

-In these circumstances, it's maybe better if the slann remains hidden in a forest or something, blasting away with his magic from the cover of the woods (using the telepathy to draw LOS).

-I should probably swap one unit of blowpipes to javelins, and maybe upgrade them to scouts for some early game marchblocking.

As an aftermath, I think i made some crucial tactical mistakes: I tried to use the denied flank tactic, against an enemy who benefited greatly by this move, as he was able to bring his full arsenal to bear on the slann and retinue. Moreover, I charged the slann into a combat i won by a small margin, dooming him in the process (he got flank charged due to a clever manoeuvre from Aaron, then was ran down).


So, any thoughts???

P.S. : p3990013: another greek then! It's turning into the greekseer :P where do you normally play?

Semi_Bunny
12-12-2007, 00:08
1) If you're having fear problems, it probably wouldn't hurt to put a sacred spawning of Tlazcotl on one or both of the saurus units at the expense of one of your kroxigor models or something like that.

2)Those single buffed up characters end up being a real problem. I don't have much experience against vampire counts, but the best option would probably be to try and shoot the crap out of the unit and try to win with static CR with the saurus.

3)I think that the plaque of dominion is useful when fighting more magically heavy armies because you know you'll have the extra dice. If you find yourself against magically weaker armies though, you usually end up being able to save 2 dispel dice which add up nicely (worked out for me well against an empire player who brought barely any magic).

4)The saurus cavalry aren't the best of the lizardmen units, I usually use them in support of the Saurus units, or move them up a flank to deal with any archers near war machines after my terradons move in (when I play against my dark/high elf friends). However they are not completely useless as the 2 S5 attacks are brutal against lighter infantry and war machine crews. I once played a 2v1: dark elves and lizardmen vs high elves (1000+1000 v 2000) in which the high elves deployed a star dragon w/ prince. The dragon proceeded to pound on our right flank units and the majority of my partners units were decimated by cavalry or bolt throwers. Meanwhile my saurus cavalry managed to kill the high elves' spearmen unit (not losing any out of its units), and then swept all 4 bolt throwers and 10 archers deployed along the back through overruns and tied the game. To answer your question though a JSoD wouldn't be a bad choice but it depends on your play style and opponents. Against Vampire Counts I'd maybe put the JSoD just for its heavier hitting and good single character hunting as well as its ability to stay in the saurus unit and support it.

5) Yeah I usually like to do the good old slann in the forest with telepathy casting unless I have temple guard because the saurus warriors dont provide adequate defense against heavy sledgehammer units.

6)What I would do with the skinks is field 2 units as Javelin/shield screens staying with your main force, and then putting 1 unit as blowpipes/scouts to march block and put some shots out more safely from the woods.

Sorry if that was really longwinded but I figured I'd answer the questions as thorougly as possible. The battle story probably wasnt necessary but its just some insight on saurus cavalry.

On the deployment strategy, the balanced lizardmen army can be deployed effectively in most formations. Against more elite armies like VC, I would stick to a balanced line with your kroxigors, cavalry, and stegadon set up in tandem with your saurus blocks for hammer and anvil style charges, as matching up units with him 1v1 you will probably lose. The denied flank tactic does work well against horde armies though.

brambleten
12-12-2007, 16:29
i would take out the cavalry and put in a flying skink of death to help your terradons in their quest of killing nasty artillery.

Conotor
16-12-2007, 03:52
Skink prists are useless. Remove it to bring your slann up to 2nd gen, otherwise he is useless. He also needs his 2+ ward save or a cannon will destroy him.

Temple guard own. Just take 10 and their stubborness will make them hold.

happy_doctor
18-12-2007, 10:18
Thank you for your swift and accurate criticism!

Some replies first, then an updated list (although i'm not giving up on the original one, I think it's a matter of getting used to its pros and cons)

Semi_bunny:
-Spawning of Tlatzcotl is a mixed blessing, really. Immune to psychology means that you can't employ a tactical flee manoeuvre against a superior enemy. Then again, fleeing with the slann isn't a sound choice most of the time...I'll give it a try!
-I think i've got the answer to buffed characters as well! Read on, you'll see!
-Plaque of Dominion is best for this set-up, i think.. 6 dispel dice and a scroll is more than enough defense, and 9 power dice (constant) will get me 3-4 spells per turn.
-Saurus cavalry have won me battles, but they are not fit for this list, it seems. In the newest incarnation, i've dropped them for some extra goodies.
-Hiding the slann is the way to go against gunlines and fear-causers, it seems... The alternative of giving him a banner of prophecy and the plaque of protection is too expensive for my taste.
-I like blowpipes, they spell doom for large monsters and lightly armoured foes such as minotaurs, ogres and the such. I'll add a unit of javelin-totting ones, however.

Conotor:
-Temple guard seem great, and usually perform well. However, they represent a huge chunk of points along with the slann, and fear-causing enemies will rout them without a sweat... Moreover, the slann is obliged to join them, thus limiting the tactical choices available (for example against a gunline..)
-Skink priests have a below average lore, and are really squishy. However, the extra dispel die, the scroll and the telepathy rule more than make up for it.

Brambleten:
-The saurus cavalry is out, read on to see what's new to the list!


NEW LIST - Sacred Host of Quetzl

-Slann Mage-priest, 4th generation, BSB, Plaque of dominion, plaque of Tepok, Bane Head
-Skink priest, level 2, Spawning of Quetzl (uses death lore), Dispel scroll
[600 points]

-18 Saurus warriors, full command, Spawning of quetzl
-10 skink skirmishers, javelins, scouts, spawning of quetzl
-10 skink skirmishers, blowpipes, spawning of quetzl
-10 skink skirmishers, blowpipes, spawning of quetzl
[481 points]

-18 Saurus warriors, full command, Spawning of quetzl, spawning of tlatzcotl
-4 Kroxigors
-3 terradons
-3 terradons
[738 points]

-Stegadon
-3 Salamanders.
[430 points]

Total: 2249 points

As you see, warmachine hunting is boosted, as well as march-blocking and disrupting of the enemy. The blessing of Quetzl not only gives me access to the lore of death (which is more hitty than Heavens) but bolsters the fighting capability of saurus warriors (now deployed 6x3) and skinks as well (the scouts have 4+ save, making them excellent warmachine hunters, despite their T2).
The slann's equipment is altered, in favour of a more aggressive build: Bane head plus rule of burning iron ensures either an auto-kill of a hero-level character (preferably the BSB), or the rapid attrition of the enemy general.

So, any thoughts on the new list? I believe its survivability is greater than the first one's.

Fire away!

Semi_Bunny
18-12-2007, 23:20
Well that one looks pretty good, maybe I should try a sacred host list for that lore of death and the armorsaves. A few things though:

-I find that blowpipes work better as scouts and javelins work better as screens, though this seems to be a matter of personal preference for some. My thinking is that if you can get into javelin shooting range with the scouts, you can most likely (give or take 2 inches) get into short range for the pipes which with move and double shots is 20 shots hitting and wounding on 6s. The armor save also tends to help the screens. However if you plan on having your non-scouting skinks as more of a shooting force, the blowpipes are definitely the better option. I might consider doing half my non-scouting skinks as pipes and half as javs for that reason.

-I like that slann loadout alot. I might steal it from you. The only problem I see is if there arent any accessible forests that lend range, it might be at a problem against camping gunlines. Since you are putting this in a tourney, you might end up finding yourself against some of those.

-Again another personal preference suggestion, but I'm not quite a fan of the 4 kroxigors, as I find 3 better for saurus support/flank charges. However if you're using that as central sledgehammer unit 4 is probably the way to go. I dont know what you'd add though with the extra points because that list is looking pretty good.

Lucky24/7
19-12-2007, 10:18
Looking Pretty Solid... though I would think About swapping the steg for some more salamanders because these guys rock .... But it might impede on your fluff idea.... just thought i would throw it out there :D

happy_doctor
07-01-2008, 18:21
Well, a new year has come, and I thought it was time I updated this thread:

I haven't had the chance to play many battles during the christmas holidays, but I am going to a small, 16-people tournament in the 20th of the month. I intend to test the lizards list there, and I'll be sure to get back to you with reports(hopefully some pictures, too).

On another note, I've been toying with this idea for some time: A 2250 army with no skink skirmishers whatsoever! Would it be viable?

For this, I'll opt to use the Sacred Host of Huanchi special rules, giving me access to shadow magic and making my saurus immune to forests!:p

so, here goes:

HEROES:
-Saurus Scar-veteran, B/S of Huanchi, GW, LA, Shield, Charm of Jaguar Warrior
-Saurus Scar-Veteran, B/S of Huanchi, BSB, LA, Sword of the Hornet
-Skinks priest, lvl2,B/S of Huanchi, Diadem of Power, Dragonfly of quicksilver
-Skink priest, lvl2, B/S of Huanchi, Rod of the Storm

CORE:
-19 Saurus Warriors, B/S of Huanchi, full command
-19 Saurus Warriors, B/S of Huanchi, full command
-3 Jungle Swarms!!

SPECIAL:
-6 Saurus Cavalry, Musician, Standard, Banner of Huanchi
-3 Terradons
-3 Terradons
-9 Chameleon Skinks

RARE:
-2 Salamander Hunting Packs
-2 Salamander Hunting Packs

Due to the terrible handicap that is the lack of skinks, I've allowed myself a second unit of salamanders(4 sallies in total).
The Jungle swarms are there to protect my blocks from skirmishers and fast cavalry (even with the 7th edition nerf, 15 poisoned attacks should handle them!)
Terradons provide air support and hunt warmachines and mages before closing in for the final blow.
In the best case scenario, the skink priests spend their dice moving the saurus characters and units around.
Chameleon skinks are there to fill any gaps, deploy in forests(thus negating enemy scouts), capturing quarters and firing poisoned shots against all odds (BS4!!)
The cavalry represents the main flanking force, hopefully it will do enough damage to compensate for the lack of kroxigors and stegadons.

So, any thoughts? (regarding any army lists)

Borthcollective
07-01-2008, 18:42
Swarms don't count towards core.

Malorian
07-01-2008, 18:45
Interesting list. I've never used swarms and have wondered how they do, as I've never heard anything good or bad about them. Have you ever used them before?

This would be a great list to take on wood elves!

happy_doctor
07-01-2008, 20:44
Swarms don't count towards core.

Luckily, the Jungle swarm counts towards core as normal. It's the Lesser Jungle Swarms that you're probably referring to, which don't count towards core limitations.


Interesting list. I've never used swarms and have wondered how they do, as I've never heard anything good or bad about them. Have you ever used them before?

This would be a great list to take on wood elves!

I've never used them in 7th edition, either! Back in the time of the 6th, a unit of 3 could hold a cavalry unit at bay indefinitely. I have used them under 6th edition a couple of times, and they were golden (skinks were still better value for money, though).

The way I see it, the unit is useful: Lots of attacks, poison, skirmishing, unbreakable, and with US 5+, so can get bonuses for flank charging and can auto-destroy fleeing troops. It's quite resilient against shooting, but won't be able to take heavy magic punishment. I'll definitely try them as an experiment in my next game!

Glad you found the list interesting! I, too, think they have much in common with wood elves (as all their units are either flyers or can move normally through woods). Pitting the one against the other would be fun!

Keep the feedback coming, lads! How would you improve the list? Does it need improving or should it be scrapped altogether?

Semi_Bunny
08-01-2008, 02:00
Quite the list there doctor, I have to say I've never seen a lizardmen list without skinks. I think without the skinks your saurus blocks are going to be quite exposed, and the huanchi was a good call there. I think however that you're going to have to play guerilla tactics to an extent in this list though, and the huanchi will help out with that to provide the cover for your saurus.

Character-wise I would maybe consider adding a lord just so you have some heavier punching power as the only hard hitters in your army are the JSoD and the saurus cavalry. An old blood that isnt too kitted out (maybe a cold one for the AS or another JSoD) should suffice to fill the roll of another hard hitter. The BSB really isnt necessary as the only things you might be needing rerolls for are the sallies and the terradons.

I find the Kroxigors wouldnt be a bad substitution for the saurus and they'd also free up some points, 3 should be enough to act as a can-opener for cavalry. Theyd probably also do a good job against the saurus.

Lastly on the topic of jungle swarms, I really only use one or two for charge redirecting (did I try that with my game against you on lorenzwhfb? BTW sucks how that costs money now) to put the enemy where I want them. However I figure they might be able to work how you plan on using them in a unit of 3, but I think in case you have multiple units you want to deal with you might want to do 2 units of 2. Though they might be a 0-1 choice so scratch that if they are, I dont have my book on hand.

Anyway thats all I could think of for now, hope it helped

-Bunny

Borthcollective
08-01-2008, 02:30
Luckily, the Jungle swarm counts towards core as normal. It's the Lesser Jungle Swarms that you're probably referring to, which don't count towards core limitations.

Not sure where I got that from, I cannot even find it now. I know it's not 5th edition because that's not how the army was bought then, and I just checked the army book. Oh well, sorry about that.

happy_doctor
08-01-2008, 16:46
Character-wise I would maybe consider adding a lord just so you have some heavier punching power as the only hard hitters in your army are the JSoD and the saurus cavalry. An old blood that isnt too kitted out (maybe a cold one for the AS or another JSoD) should suffice to fill the roll of another hard hitter. The BSB really isnt necessary as the only things you might be needing rerolls for are the sallies and the terradons.


Hmmm...An Oldblood, you say? To be honest, I've never fielded one, as I find scar-veterans are already quite powerful (even though they lack in staying power). Assuming I got one, how would you equip him? And what should I drop in order to get one?
I can't give any of my characters a mount, as the spawning of Huanchi is "models on foot only". What's more, only US 1 models can benefit from the steed of shadows, so that's convenient.
On the BSB, he performs two roles: First off, he's there to support one unit of saurus and ensure they win combats (Always Strikes First will help). Secondly, he provides the other saurus block staying power, buying me tie to maneuver and bring my auxilliary forces to bear upon the enemy hard hitters. As a bonus, he can hold out on his own quite well, if he's magically moved into combat with annoying things such as spirit hosts, fast cavalry, enemy flyers (pegasus Knights come to mind), etc. The +1 combat resolution from the banner means he will stick around.



I find the Kroxigors wouldnt be a bad substitution for the saurus and they'd also free up some points, 3 should be enough to act as a can-opener for cavalry. Theyd probably also do a good job against the saurus.


Unfortunately, I cannot substitute the saurus, due to the 3+ core limit (which is barely reached through the saurus and the Jungle Swarms) The option I have is fieldng them instead of he cavalry, but I think that it would be breaking the theme and wouldn't be that useful without a skink screen anyway. Saurus cavalry can counter enemy knights quite well, due to the multiple attacks, fear and the banner of huanchi (pity it's one use only).



Lastly on the topic of jungle swarms, I really only use one or two for charge redirecting to put the enemy where I want them. However I figure they might be able to work how you plan on using them in a unit of 3, but I think in case you have multiple units you want to deal with you might want to do 2 units of 2. Though they might be a 0-1 choice so scratch that if they are, I dont have my book on hand.


I wish I could have more that one unit, it would be great. However, there is a 0-1 limit, so I'm trying to make the most out of it.
I believe that if used prudently (i.e. if they pick their targets), they can last all game long without giving up any VP's, which is obviously a good thing. I really hope their price will drop a bit in the next edition's army book, though.
In general, charge redirection is not their job (i'd rather do this with the terradons, who can bait and flee), but stalling the enemy could be, depending on the tactical situation.


(did I try that with my game against you on lorenzwhfb? BTW sucks how that costs money now)

I don't reacall you using swarms back then, but maybe...
On the Lorenz subject, I was dissapointed at first, but I'm thinking of actually signing up now (when I get around to creating a Pay Pal account).
That thing made play-testing really easy! (and I've met some decent blokes from abroad, too)
What's bugging me is that it appears to be quite deserted at the moment...


Borthcollective

I believe you got mixed up with the Lustria rules (Tenenhuin's Red Host), where the Lesser Swarms didn't count for core restrictions.

Semi_Bunny
08-01-2008, 22:31
I find the Kroxigors wouldnt be a bad substitution for the saurus and they'd also free up some points, 3 should be enough to act as a can-opener for cavalry. Theyd probably also do a good job against the saurus.



I'm sorry I screwed that up there, I meant substitution for the saurus cavalry. I dont even know what I was saying in the last sentence, I was pretty tired when I posted it I guess. Anyway though yeah basically what I meant was kroxigors might be more cost effective than the cavalry, but I figure you're right that without the screen they might just die to shooting. So basically I guess just ignore that advice.

On the subject of lorenzwhfb: I popped in there under the "test" name for a bit and yeah it looked pretty empty, which is probably why I wouldnt pay for it. That and I dont know if paypal deals with the exchange rate since I use US dollars. Its too bad though thats where I tested my list(s) before I bought the models and now I dont know how I'm going unless I just make proxies.

happy_doctor
22-01-2008, 14:26
Well, I playtested the army in a tournament this weekend. I must say I am pleased with how it performs, given that I faced some difficult opponents.

For a full report with maps and all, CLICK HERE (http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2283957#post2283957)

My thoughts:

-The slann could have used the War Banner. The +1 combat resolution is great at keeping him from fleeing and helps the saurus win more combats as well.

-Quetzl saurus are absolutely brilliant!! The 3+ save makes them really hard.

-Quetzl skinks with javelins were the absolute MVP's of my army, I'm looking at replacing another unit of blowpipes for some javelins. I'll keep the one unit with blowpipes just in case something juicy comes up (a giant for example).

-The skink priest helped a lot; getting a default magic missile boosts his power quite a bit.

-Tlatzcotl cann be a double-edged sword on the saurus, but it sure keeps them around against all odds.

-I'm not entirely sold on kroxigors with this build. I was wondering whether it would be better to swap them for other units...They seem to attract way too much shooting. But I'll have to test this again.

-While the slann doesn't make his points back (and can be destroyed far more easily than when he comes with temple guard), his leadership and re-rolls keep the army together. Perhaps it would be too much if I swapped the kroxigors for a small temple guard unit?

happy_doctor
07-02-2008, 09:52
*New List, new idea!*

Ok, instead of posting my new lizardmen idea in a seperate thread, I decided to post here, as it's in the same spirit as the first one. The goal still remains: get to the april tournament and do reasonably well.

I've had an epiphany a few days ago; I've never ever tried to use a carnosaur in my army. Back when I started playing lizardmen, there was no such thing as an Oldblodd, let alone a Carnosaur. Magic has this strange appeal to me, so I always went with the Slann lord choice.

However, I saw a carnosaur conversion the other day and I must say that the model is sweet! Thus, I'm trying to justify the buy via list building!

The design you are about to see has survivability written on it. I figure that a carnosaur isn't an easy target in close combat, but it may suffer from enemy shooting. To counter this, the war-machine hunting capabilities of the list are greatly augmented. The oldblood would much rather hide for a round or two than get shot to death from the enemy gunline.

So, without furtherd delay, here it is:

HEROES:
-Oldblood on Carnosaur, B/S of Itzl, Quetzl, Old Ones, Aura of Quetzl, Gleaming Pendant of Chotec, Piranha Blade, LA, shield
-Skink Priest, Dispel Scroll

CORE:
-10 Skink skirmishers, blowpipes
-10 Skink skirmishers, javelins, brave
-10 Skink skirmishers, blowpipes, scouts, brave
-18 Saurus Warriors, full command
-18 Saurus Warriors, full command

SPECIAL:
-4 Kroxigors
-3 Terradons
-3 Terradons
-5 Chameleon Skinks

RARE:
-Stegadon
-3 Salamanders

TOTAL:2250

The strategy in this army is as follows:
The centre is held by the 2 saurus blocks, to make sure they make it to combat soon enough. The stegadon stays close by, supporting the blocks and protecting one of their flanks.
One of the 2 flanks (preferrably one with difficult terrain where skirmishers can hide) is held by the salamanders and skinks skirmishers. The goal is to delay them by march-blocking, avoid combats and kill off soft targets.
The other flank sports the heavy targets: Carnosaur (moving behind cover until artillery-if any- is dispatched) and Kroxigors.
The terradons, scouts and chameleons are there to get to the enemy shooting and wizards in the first 2 turns. I'll gladly sacrifice a terradon unit to take out an enemy wizard, given the lack of magic protection.

Some extra points/remarks:
-Oldblood: The gleaming pendant is crucial to his survival; with a 4+ ward vs anything that can really hurt him, D3 re-rolls and a reasonalbe armour save, it's the oldblood's carnosaur that needs protection. Thus, I plan on sacrificing skinks in order to have enemy heavy units overrun on my Carnosaur rather thancharge straight away. This way, I can use the pendant, stiking first (and potentially in a challenge), dishing out a lot of pain before the enemy (be it knights, dragon or else) has a chance of striking back.

-Skink braves: The reasoning behind this is to have some extra champions for challenging enemy fighty characters when counter-charging (for example, if a chaos lord on dragon charges my saurus, they can't expect to survive or win unless they keep challenging the lord in order to minimize losses. That's where the skink brave comes in. What's more, I had 10 points left over, and felt like spending them! :p

So, any thoughts?

What I really want to hear is tactics/thoughts/experiences from those who have actually used a carnosaur before. (any other comment is welcome as well!)
Is the list any good? What do you think are its weak points? Would it perform better than the slann lists posted above? (not the huanchi one, the original ones on the first page)

Conotor
07-02-2008, 17:15
2nd gen slann is best.

happy_doctor
07-02-2008, 22:57
2nd gen slann is best.

Well, that's not constructive criticism now, is it? :rolleyes:

As I mentioned in my original post, I'm trying to figure a way to play with the less "appealing" elements of the army list. Thus, 2nd Generation Slann is out of the question.

Now, if you or anyone else has something to say as far as my list above is concerned, feel free to fire away! (pretty please?) ;)

I'm waiting with anticipation!

'night,

Happy_doctor