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Hlokk
06-12-2007, 15:55
Right, if you read that list thing which has the 20 different legions on it, you'll notice the II and the XI are the ones scribbled out. (see dark angels codex page 73).

While I was reading the second heresy novel, False Gods, I noticed this:


He [horus] stopped by the tank with XI stencilled upon it and placed his hand against the smooth steel, feeling the untapped glories that might have lain ahead for what grew within, but knowing that they would never come to pass.

Personally, I think its quite an insight. Each of the primarchs grew to achieve glory on each of the worlds they were found, yet this quote would suggest that the thing in the canister didn't survive.

Anyone else got any thoughts on this?

Danjester
06-12-2007, 15:57
That's how I read it. Maybe the Primarch didn't survive and the Legion based on it was stuck in suspended animation on Mars ;)

Commander Dante
06-12-2007, 15:58
that has been brought up before. unfortunatly it so vauge that is the only info we got on # XI, even he didnt survive was his legion dissolved and put into other legions? GW pisses me off i swear.

GreenDracoBob
06-12-2007, 16:28
Even Horus could be kept in the dark. So as much as it implies that the Primarch never led his legion, it could be said that is just what Horus believes. It depends completely on what happened to the Primarch and legion, when it happened and what the Emperor (or his underlings) did about it. So in other words, it just places the tragedy of the XI Legion before the Heresy, but gives no information that we didn't know before in some sense.

MrBigMr
06-12-2007, 16:36
There was a nice theory on the subject. As the scene was a vision, not everything in it might be right. Like isn't it said you can't read in dreams, as the center for reading is on the other side of the brain from the dreaming part. But, for one, the number could have been mirrored. So XI (11) turns to IX (9) aka. Blood Angels. Now what happened to their Primarch?

pookie
06-12-2007, 16:47
There was a nice theory on the subject. As the scene was a vision, not everything in it might be right. Like isn't it said you can't read in dreams, as the center for reading is on the other side of the brain from the dreaming part. But, for one, the number could have been mirrored. So XI (11) turns to IX (9) aka. Blood Angels. Now what happened to their Primarch?

damn you MrbigMr! (actually damn this computer because that is exactyly what i was going to put befor it crashed and by time im back, well you posted it!

i like this idea too

VanHel
06-12-2007, 16:48
Oh that's brilliant. I hadn't even thought about it.

ChaosMaster
06-12-2007, 16:50
Maybe he just went out for a litre of milk one day and decided not to come back.

Slazton
06-12-2007, 17:10
Hmm, thats a pretty cool interpretation of Horus' vision.

In my mind, the missing legions were an oversight by GW. They don't exist as their Primarchs were sent to the Warhammer world where they became Sigmar and the other Beklor (er...some one help me on the spelling here). Its quite easy when you compare the fact that the Old Ones sowed the planet. Of course new fluff overrides this and I am a liar, but a few recent texts hint at the connections.

Preferrably my favourite of the cursed artifacts in the Liber Chaotica and the Chainsword that was found and used....

Hmm, one does have to wonder if I am just being a heretic or trying to stir up conversation?

Then again, there is the fact that both Primarchs could have died in the warp and their Legions dissolved and the Marines placed into different Legions

Daemonslave
06-12-2007, 17:25
All 20 Primarchs were found and fought in, and led their respective Legions during, the Great Crusade.Though them all being around at the same time seems unlikely... (this rules out the death in stasis pod idea). Speaking of stasis pods, ever think it was down to luck that they were capable of atmospheric re-entry? Regarding the quote from Horus Rising, I agree that it sounds like he dies/disappears early, but that is only what Horus is aware of, and it could mean early in the Great Crusade.

Anyway, I'm not that bothered about Primarch XI, I think the other Primarch's story will turn out to be far more interesting;)

The Judge
06-12-2007, 17:40
The missing Legions were done in honour of the two Roman Legions who disappeared and were completely destroyed, so it wasn't an oversight, it was a homage.

Doesn't say much about the Primarch though.

MrBigMr
06-12-2007, 18:06
Preferrably my favourite of the cursed artifacts in the Liber Chaotica and the Chainsword that was found and used....
Hmm...
'...And Sigmar raised the melta-bomb up on high, saying, "O Emperor, bless this Thy melta-bomb that with it Thou mayest blow Thine enemies to tiny bits, in Thy mercy." And the Emperor did grin and the people did feast upon the lambs and sloths and carp and anchovies and orangutans and breakfast cereals, and fruit bats and large chu...'
'skip a bit, brother'
'... And the Emperor spake, saying, "First shalt thou take out the Holy Pin, then shalt thou count to three, no more, no less. Three shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Melta-Bomb of Antioch towards thy foe, who being naught in my sight, shall snuff it." Amen.'

We're having a narrative WHFB tournament with a friend soon, and one of the scenarios in it will be to transport objectives in a breakthrough scenario. The objectives range from arms to special characters and artifacts. As one, I was thinking of making a decorative bolter on a pedestal.

ChaosMaster
06-12-2007, 18:25
Hmm...
[I]'...And Sigmar raised the melta-bomb up on high, saying, "O Emperor, bless this Thy melta-bomb that with it Thou mayest blow Thine enemies to tiny bits, in Thy mercy." And the Emperor did grin and the people did feast upon the lambs and sloths and carp and anchovies and orangutans and breakfast cereals, and fruit bats and large chu...'
'skip a bit, brother'...
Interesting, earlier today I referenced this same movie scene in the thread called "125", at
http://warseer.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2159017&postcount=10

MutantMaggot
06-12-2007, 18:59
Hmm...
'...And Sigmar raised the melta-bomb up on high, saying, "O Emperor, bless this Thy melta-bomb that with it Thou mayest blow Thine enemies to tiny bits, in Thy mercy." And the Emperor did grin and the people did feast upon the lambs and sloths and carp and anchovies and orangutans and breakfast cereals, and fruit bats and large chu...'
'skip a bit, brother'
'... And the Emperor spake, saying, "First shalt thou take out the Holy Pin, then shalt thou count to three, no more, no less. Three shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Melta-Bomb of Antioch towards thy foe, who being naught in my sight, shall snuff it." Amen.'

:p Lol ... that's awesome. If I had the room I'd sig it ... :D ;)


Anyway, sorry to put a damper on the very good idea, but I think that's just the author's way of putting the XI legion in it as a minor thing in order not to annoy fluff nazis.

remember BL authors are not, repeat not, the voice of GW.

I think, and hope, that GW will always leave the XI and II legions as mysterious holes in cyberspace ...

Inquisitor Engel
06-12-2007, 19:12
Perhaps Horus doesn't know about the glories of the other two primarchs because they were found before Horus was and something happened, before being completely expunged.

Gorbad Ironclaw
06-12-2007, 19:46
Problem is, Sigmar wasn't found in the wilds or anything. He was born on a stormfull night, perfectly natural.

So while they might be giving details about the missing legions now, they have nothing to do with Warhammer. As said, they are to do with the destroyed roman legions.

Supremearchmarshal
06-12-2007, 20:19
Problem is, Sigmar wasn't found in the wilds or anything. He was born on a stormfull night, perfectly natural.

So while they might be giving details about the missing legions now, they have nothing to do with Warhammer. As said, they are to do with the destroyed roman legions.

Yep, I don't know where people get the idea that he was a Primarch. All the old fluff I've read about him never mentions him as being anything other than a human, and GW actually did reveal how he became a god... and it has nothing to do with the Emperor or Warhammer 40k at all.

MrBigMr
06-12-2007, 20:19
Problem is, Sigmar wasn't found in the wilds or anything. He was born on a stormfull night, perfectly natural.
As far as the DC universe is concerned, so was Clark Kent. Anyone can find a baby and claim its their through perfectly normal procedures. What do you think people will do when a person in a medeavil society says that their baby fell out of the sky in a metal cylinder?

Daemonslave
06-12-2007, 20:44
As far as the DC universe is concerned, so was Clark Kent. Anyone can find a baby and claim its their through perfectly normal procedures. What do you think people will do when a person in a medeavil society says that their baby fell out of the sky in a metal cylinder?

Well, not only does it state in the book The Life of Sigmar that Sigmar's mother was in labour during an Orc attack, but the timelines also do not match.

At the time Sigmar is 'born', Slaanesh has been present on the Warhammer world for thousands of years (Maleketh's mother was a Slaanesh worshipper, etc.). Since Slaanesh was born immediately prior to the start of the Great Crusade, which only lasted 200 years, Sigmar could not have been a Primarch.

Captain Stern
06-12-2007, 21:11
Isn't there something about this in The Lightning Tower? Anyone who has it care to wade in?

Captain Stern
06-12-2007, 21:17
Well, not only does it state in the book The Life of Sigmar that Sigmar's mother was in labour during an Orc attack, but the timelines also do not match.

At the time Sigmar is 'born', Slaanesh has been present on the Warhammer world for thousands of years (Maleketh's mother was a Slaanesh worshipper, etc.). Since Slaanesh was born immediately prior to the start of the Great Crusade, which only lasted 200 years, Sigmar could not have been a Primarch.

Some of the Codices over the years said the primarchs were scattered through space AND time. So it fits. Actually, when you consider the temporal aspect of the warp gates, the idea of the Warhammer world existing in the 40K universe also fits in spite of the problems caused by Slaanesh.

Swifty
06-12-2007, 21:19
In the Horus Heresy The Lightning Tower it has a scene that also hints at the fates of the two missing legions

WARNING SPOILERS!



Dorn's aimless wanderings had taken him to the Investiary. In that broad space, an amphithereatre open to the night sky, statues of the twenty stood on ouslite plinths in a silent ring.

FILLER

The second and eleventh plinths had been vacant for a long time. No one ever spoke of those two absent brothers. Their separate tragedies had seemed like aberrations. Had they, in fact, been warnings that no one heeded?

Daemonslave
06-12-2007, 21:32
Some of the Codex's over the years said the primarchs were scattered through space AND time. So it fits. Actually, when you consider the temporal aspect of the warp gates, the idea of the Warhammer world existing in the 40K universe also fits in spite of the problems caused by Slaanesh.


I've researched a lot of stuff on the Lost Legions/Primarchs and I don't recall ever seeing a reference to being sent through time (like the Fallen). Do you have a quote please?:)

Also, regarding the statues, the wording is so vague that it tells us very little. It tells us that they have definately gone by the time the Heresy starts, but other than that it is extremely unhelpful. The fact that Dorn questions whether their absence was an unheeded warning suggests that he is unaware of what exactly has happened with them, though that can be interpreted in many ways.

The Judge
06-12-2007, 21:33
Dorn sees the missing statues, and mentions something about "they should have learned from the missing statues"

I need to re-read it, that story is gold.

silence
06-12-2007, 21:41
I always thought the RL reason the legions where not mentioned where to do with copyright reasons with a certain designer leaving GW not long before the release of 40K and them not having the time to rewrite the legions. Something like that anyway.

I think Sons of Malal where one of the legions and the other I don't know about.

Fluff wise, I think its cool to have a mystery surrounding the Marines founding.

MrBigMr
06-12-2007, 21:47
At the time Sigmar is 'born', Slaanesh has been present on the Warhammer world for thousands of years (Maleketh's mother was a Slaanesh worshipper, etc.). Since Slaanesh was born immediately prior to the start of the Great Crusade, which only lasted 200 years, Sigmar could not have been a Primarch.
I don't know about you, but what I've read, the Fall of the Eldar happened during the end of Age of Technology, around M25, followed by the Age of Strife. 5 000 years before the Great Crusade, so that's 'thousands of years' to me.

Wazzahamma
06-12-2007, 21:56
The Lightning Tower tells us:
- That all 20 served in the great crusade
- That II and XI's fates were tragic. Or at least seem to be. So tragic that their statues were removed, rather than retained. That's pretty full on.

Supremearchmarshal
06-12-2007, 22:35
Some of the Codices over the years said the primarchs were scattered through space AND time. So it fits. Actually, when you consider the temporal aspect of the warp gates, the idea of the Warhammer world existing in the 40K universe also fits in spite of the problems caused by Slaanesh.

Yeah, the Warhammer world according to the old background is indeed part of the 40k universe, but again Sigmar was *born* so he most definitely is not a Primarch. Though, as I said, I really do wonder where people get such an idea.

MrBigMr
06-12-2007, 22:38
Though, as I said, I really do wonder where people get such an idea.
Propably from the same place where they get the idea the Void Dragon is on Mars and the Avatar's body is living metal.

Tehkonrad
07-12-2007, 06:29
I agree with dragon theory and vehemently disagree with the avatacron theory

Imperial Dragon
07-12-2007, 06:40
you can ignore this but couldnt the 2 spaces free just be so gamers can make up the own fluffy armies.

or

could one of them be the emperors bodyguard people (custodions) [not sure with spelling]

i'm only saying this, cause it seems a little possible


let the yelling and telling me im wrong commmence :)

zendral
07-12-2007, 07:32
As others have said, they fought in the crusade, and Horus's comment in the HH book leans toward an early tragic end for the legions. At least thats how it comes off to me. The real question is what could they have done (or have done to them) to have information about them eradicated? MY first thought was they turned to chaos and were immediately destroyed, thus making it easy to erase the stain from imperial history, but thats too dumb and corny. Im pretty much leaning toward something like: GW not coming up with ideas for them, or leaving open spaces for something to work with in the future....or just to screw with our minds like what there doing with cypher and how the final battle(s) will work out.

Swifty
07-12-2007, 08:44
I don't think any of the missing primarchs are dead because all the way through the Horus Heresy series everyone speaks as tho the primarchs are gods and it would be impossible for them to die, so if some were already dead they would not have this attitude towards them.

Also none of the primarchs no what chaos is or if they do only have a tiny amount of knowledge about it and if somthing as big as two whole legions turning to chaos you would have thouhgt more would have been known.

I think it is more likely they didn't want to join the crusades with the big E or left the crusades to persue their own goals in a galaxy far far away...

Daemonslave
07-12-2007, 08:48
As others have said, they fought in the crusade, and Horus's comment in the HH book leans toward an early tragic end for the legions. At least thats how it comes off to me. The real question is what could they have done (or have done to them) to have information about them eradicated?


But was Horus aware of what happened or was he just told by the Emperor (who could have been telling some lies), and the same with Dorn.

As for what they could have done, well I would imagine it was not something hugely noticable (such as the Heresy) since the Imperium have managed to keep it so well hidden (which would be difficult if it was public knowledge). This suggests that since it it a secret very well kept that few people know about it and would imply to me that it occurred during the very early stages of the Great Crusade.

pookie
07-12-2007, 09:04
I always thought the RL reason the legions where not mentioned where to do with copyright reasons with a certain designer leaving GW not long before the release of 40K and them not having the time to rewrite the legions. Something like that anyway.

I think Sons of Malal where one of the legions and the other I don't know about.

Fluff wise, I think its cool to have a mystery surrounding the Marines founding.

you got that a little confused.

the 5th Chaos God was Malal, and indeed the person who had penned the name/history did leave GW and at the time took his god with him (sons of malice SM are reportedly using Malals colours).

there has never been any explanatioin to the two missing legions, it was at first just a pairing with the missing roman legions with us lot speculating for years (im talking 10+ years!) but now GW seem to be teasing us with glimces of who they could be.

legion will hopefully shed some light on one of the two.

ryng_sting
07-12-2007, 09:21
All 20 Primarchs were found; Warhammer and 40k aren't linked anymore. Simple as.

Simon Sez
07-12-2007, 10:51
I've always been of the opinion that the Missing Primarchs took the term Crusade all too seriously and drove their Legions onwards past the galactic rim, past even the Emperors sight. Sort of like the blue Wizards went east in LotR.

Supremearchmarshal
07-12-2007, 11:49
Propably from the same place where they get the idea the Void Dragon is on Mars and the Avatar's body is living metal.

So we have a clear winner about what happened to the legions: The C'Tan did it! ;)

MrBigMr
07-12-2007, 11:59
So we have a clear winner about what happened to the legions: The C'Tan did it! ;)
Didn't mean it really like that. But that is one possibility, xenos influence. To be overcome by Chaos isn't the person's own fault, he was tricked and warped by Chaos. But to go willingly over to the xenos is disgusting and vile. Which is why Gue'vesa auxiliars get the Traitors special rule while Chaos doesn't.

Or maybe their death was so utterly stupid (getting shot by krot or something) that it would have made a poor tale to be told.

Grimbad
07-12-2007, 13:34
All 20 Primarchs were found; Warhammer and 40k aren't linked anymore. Simple as.

Doesn't mean they stayed found. They could have wandered into a warp storm and never have been seen again.

pookie
07-12-2007, 13:39
the sqauts ate them :eek:

Commander Dante
07-12-2007, 15:54
Maybe they took the Crusade deep into the eye of terror not knowing what was inside. The emperor fearing the worst declared that thier records expunged.

Slazton
07-12-2007, 16:56
In the Old Realms of Chaos Fantasy Book, did it not state the Webway and possiable Warpgates? Does it not aim that a Great Gate rests at the Eye of Chaos at the Northern Peak of the world?

Ah. I know GW canned some fluff, but that does not mean you have to close your mind's eye to such tales. With recent fluff editions produced by Black Library hinting that even bolters, chainblades and even Necrontyr artifacts being found, why is it harmful to explore this side of the fluff?

The Fluff is what you make of it. GW say one thing, but then they say another.

Sigmar was born of a mortal mother, but did not the GW representives say their own FLUFF is told in tales and even diluted by rumours and hearsay? Please check that thread stating about BL stuff not being official cannon. I believe that both discounts and proves my theory at the exact time. We as the players choose what to believe and GW either tell us we are wrong or do not tell us we are wrong. While one side may say the Etherals were tampered by the Old Ones/Halrequins/Some Farseer while others tend to believe that some sort of warp deity is watching over the Tau, that is actually called the Greater Good. (Think about their over zealious ways towards the Greater Good, one could almost say they worship it ;))

So the other two legions were MIA. I preferr to think that the Emperor actually cocked up and the two kids were mutated even more so than Magnus and a few others and were strangeled at birth and the Marines that were created were expunged.

Or GW has them hidden away, their two battlefleets were lost in the warp and are now in a time limbo. That sounds very plausiable as we all know the Warp is a pain in the neck and plays around with time and who says it can't go backwards? Have there not been reports of ships being chucked out of the warp that the crews were infants and small children instead of fully grown adults?

Ah one misses the days of Rogue Trader when the fluff was tangiable and very tasty, but now with it being refined, do players close their minds and no longer accept these fluff hereseys? Nothing wrong with looking at alternatives and seeking knowledge from older sources is there? Of course its all taken with a pinch of salt.

There is no fluff. There is no cannon. There is only war

Commander Dante
07-12-2007, 17:01
Maybe the Legion of the Damned is one of the missing legions ( damn the firehawks to hell)

Slazton
07-12-2007, 17:14
I believe that avenue has been explored and closed. GW stated as much that they are not the same thing and the Legion of the Damned are their own Chapter.

Spacewolves vs Thousandsons
10-12-2007, 15:09
id have to go with the lost in the warp theory. time doesnt work the same in the warp what could be a weeks travel to a ship (or fleet) could be 5000 years in normal space they may just be stuck in the warp and unfortunatley havent returned yet

or thats just my opinion but like it has been mention before it is to damn vague as to what happened all we know is that their records where eradicated for some reason, and yet there are not to many questions asked as to why that happened from therir brother primarchs

silence
10-12-2007, 18:14
you got that a little confused.

the 5th Chaos God was Malal, and indeed the person who had penned the name/history did leave GW and at the time took his god with him (sons of malice SM are reportedly using Malals colours).

there has never been any explanatioin to the two missing legions, it was at first just a pairing with the missing roman legions with us lot speculating for years (im talking 10+ years!) but now GW seem to be teasing us with glimces of who they could be.

legion will hopefully shed some light on one of the two.

Thanks for setting me straight about this :)

Brother Siccarius
10-12-2007, 18:56
:p Lol ... that's awesome. If I had the room I'd sig it ... :D ;)


Anyway, sorry to put a damper on the very good idea, but I think that's just the author's way of putting the XI legion in it as a minor thing in order not to annoy fluff nazis.

remember BL authors are not, repeat not, the voice of GW.

I think, and hope, that GW will always leave the XI and II legions as mysterious holes in cyberspace ...

Actually, they are. The Black Library fluff often comes back around and implants itself in the GW Fluff. Sabbat Crusade, Gaunts Ghosts, Ravenor, and the Horus Heresy Books themselves have landed circularly into the GW fluff.

The Horus Heresy books in particular are oversighted by GW to finally give a more detailed account of the whos, whats, and wheres. BL is a part of GW, and GW gives their stamp of approval on what books get published through them. Yes, some things are off every once in a while, but BL stated before that (paraphrasing here) "Our books are as cannon as any Codex or Rulebook and just as prone to problems of perspective."

--------

Back to the topic at hand, however.

Fulgrim casts some doubt on the vision of horus being just a dream. Eldrad, when communing with the seer stones mentions a few of the events in the other books, namely 'A base betrayal in the past'.

Personally I found it ironic that in the warp-born part of the vision Horus had that the Thousand Sons appeared as Wolves.

Wolf Scout Ewan
10-12-2007, 19:55
Looooost iiiiin spaaaaaaace!

*ahem* This is the myth I prefer. I do hope that one turns out to be the adeptus custodes!

TheHaunted
10-12-2007, 21:10
I know I am going to get yelled at but my personal theory is that one is the custodes and one is the Grey Knights.... The only fluff backup I have is that the grey knights all say they have no clue who their primarch is.... and if he was lost in the warp or kill way before they were founded but their geneseed was perserved...... Huh? Huh? Kind of a cool theory huh? so who wants to prove me wrong?

starlight
10-12-2007, 21:31
It has been said *many* a time in the GW background that when a force falls to Chaos and the last remnant of that force is eradicated that all record of it will be expunged from Imperial history. It is entirely possible that one (or both) if the missing Legions fell to Chaos (or Xenos or whatever) but that it happened early enough in the evolution of the Legion that the Emperor was able to eradicate (Exterminatus) the evidence (possibly by the other *missing* Legion) and declare the Primarch(s) and Legion(s) *missing* rather than admit to the fallibility of his master plan...

Common theory on the Grey Knights is that they are survivors of the Traitor Legions who resisted the lure of Chaos and fought on the side of the Loyalists during the Heresy.

wibble
11-12-2007, 00:17
i personally love the fact that there are so many different theories with some minor proof, but not enough to make it fact. along with cypher i find this the most interesting gap in GW fluff. anyways, just to pose another idea, what would happen if the primarch didn't accept the emperor when they first met as part of the great crusade. i know some of the primarchs had to fight him to prove he was their creator/leader/demi-god but what if a primarch had openly attacked the emperor, refused to reason and had to be killed to protect the emperor and the crusade? implausible perhaps but just another idea. i also quite like the idea that they crusaded off beyond the galaxy and kept going.

The Warmaster
11-12-2007, 03:08
Actually, they are. The Black Library fluff often comes back around and implants itself in the GW Fluff. Sabbat Crusade, Gaunts Ghosts, Ravenor, and the Horus Heresy Books themselves have landed circularly into the GW fluff.

The Horus Heresy books in particular are oversighted by GW to finally give a more detailed account of the whos, whats, and wheres. BL is a part of GW, and GW gives their stamp of approval on what books get published through them. Yes, some things are off every once in a while, but BL stated before that (paraphrasing here) "Our books are as cannon as any Codex or Rulebook and just as prone to problems of perspective."

I'm not sure of where the Ravenor books fit in (although that could just be because I've only read the first book in that series), although the others are obvious to me.

An example of the Horus Heresy books being integrated into the background is the mention of remembrancers in the new Chaos Codex (see Ahriman's section - it mentions the Athenaeum of Kallimakus [not sure of spelling, can't be bothered to go and grab my Codex], which was a library where the notes of Kallimakus, a remembrancer who accompanied the Thousand Sons during the Heresy, had been stored). Sure, it's only a small reference, but it's something (after all, I don't recall any mention of remembrancers in the background prior to the Horus Heresy novels).

- N.

Nazguire
11-12-2007, 03:36
I know I am going to get yelled at but my personal theory is that one is the custodes and one is the Grey Knights.... The only fluff backup I have is that the grey knights all say they have no clue who their primarch is.... and if he was lost in the warp or kill way before they were founded but their geneseed was perserved...... Huh? Huh? Kind of a cool theory huh? so who wants to prove me wrong?


The Grey Knights were formed after the Heresy, or very close to the end of it if you believe the Eisenstein 8 theory. So no go.

Custodes were created before the Great Crusade and are not Marines or Primarchs or anything related to them other then being products of genetic manipulation.

Feor
11-12-2007, 03:51
the sqauts ate them

Best Theory, EVER! :D

LexxBomb
11-12-2007, 06:35
what if they were the first 2 found and they were destroyed by orks... its the idea that makes the most sense to me

The Warmaster
11-12-2007, 07:24
the sqauts ate them :eek:

I believe that's S****s (the Ordo Xenos might be watching!).

- N.

pookie
11-12-2007, 08:39
Best Theory, EVER! :D

i think we all should push GW into making this canon, what you all recon.......;)

Drakemaster
11-12-2007, 11:47
I don't know about you, but what I've read, the Fall of the Eldar happened during the end of Age of Technology, around M25, followed by the Age of Strife. 5 000 years before the Great Crusade, so that's 'thousands of years' to me.
Nope. The birth of Slaanesh happened after the Emperor had conquered Earth and just before the start of the Great Crusade. It was warpstorms caused by the growth of Slaanesh that made warp traven impossible/highly dangerous during the Age of Strife, and his/her eventual birth that cleared them thus enabling the Emperor to set off on the Crusade. The Emperor predicted the birth of Slaanesh and end of the warpstorms, which is what prompted him to come out of hiding and begin the conquest of Earth in the first place.

DarthBinky
11-12-2007, 15:53
The missing Legions were done in honour of the two Roman Legions who disappeared and were completely destroyed, so it wasn't an oversight, it was a homage.
Except that that isn't true.

There were many Roman legions which disappeared- we don't even know how most of the Imperial-era legions met their fates. There were also several which were lost in battle. There were many which were disbanded for one reason or another. Not to mention that there were closer to 80 Roman legions (http://www.livius.org/le-lh/legio/legions.htm) over the long history of the Empire, not twenty.

The lost legions have no direct link with Roman legions, other than sharing a name.

(Sorry, I have seen this passed off as fact for many years and it bothers me slightly)

Jellicoe
11-12-2007, 16:29
I understood that they referred to the two lost in the Teutoberger Wald and whose numbers were not reused

Personal theory is either that they have been
a) sent out beyond the galaxy
b) gone forwards/backwards in time
c) (my favourite) have been hidden in suspended animation for the final battle at the ascension fo the starchild etc. To rise again along with all the other heroes who are meant to turn up at the final battle, Arthur et al, Drake, Kitchener etc

DarthBinky
11-12-2007, 16:38
I understood that they referred to the two lost in the Teutoberger Wald and whose numbers were not reused

There were three lost at the Teutoburg Forest, although you're correct, their numbers weren't reused.

But not reusing the numbers is quite a bit different from having all records of your existence completely balorted for all eternity.

Freefire
12-12-2007, 05:33
I havent read the Lightening Tower, but from the comment of what Dorn said about the fate of the missing Primarchs possibly being a forewaring to the Heresy, its seems possible that they turned against the Emperor, occuring during the Great Crusade. But maybe not necessarily because of Chaos but because of ego. I could see the one of the Primarchs possibly resisting the Imperial Way, believing that his world was better off without the influence of the Imperium to the point where he and his world were destroyed. I doubt the Emperor would've taken such a tactic with one of his sons but it seems there are one or two of the other Primarchs who would not hesitate to be so heavy handed. At least thats how I would explain at least one of the missing Primarchs. It would let the "truth" of chaos go undiscovered and show that loyalty to the Emperor first wasn't a given in every situation.

Commander Dante
12-12-2007, 06:06
Maybe they tried to usurp the emperor? they attempted to attack him directly in way that Horus didnt. Like the emperor acompanies the legions and they turned? Emperor would have been most likely furious enought to expunge them.

Darkseer
12-12-2007, 06:51
There were three lost at the Teutoburg Forest, although you're correct, their numbers weren't reused.

But not reusing the numbers is quite a bit different from having all records of your existence completely balorted for all eternity.


Possibly the lost primarchs landed on their worlds, didn't survive or were simply never found.

Come on people, don't do a GW and say "Chaos did it!"

The Warmaster
12-12-2007, 07:09
I'm suddenly inclined to think that their Primarchs may have unearthed a dark secret about the Primarch Project, leading to the Emperor permanently silencing them and their legions. It's been suggested that the Emperor made a pact with Chaos to power the Primarch Project, right? Maybe that has something to do with it.

- N.

Feor
12-12-2007, 12:13
Possibly the lost primarchs landed on their worlds, didn't survive or were simply never found.

Come on people, don't do a GW and say "Chaos did it!

Problem is they did survive, there's background to the affect that the Emperor and his 20 Primarchs fought in the Great Crusade. Hard for 20 of them to fight if only 18 were found. :p

We're not going "Chaos did it" GW is with all the fluff they've put out in the HH series. Horus ruminates on how the 11th primarch was such a waste of potential. Dorn (apparently) reflects on if the 2nd and 11th might have been a forewarning of Horus' trechery. It's suggested (admitedly, by an Agent of Chaos) that the Primarchs only were possible with the assistance of the Chaos Gods.

And even if Chaos DID do it, it could always be worse.

GW could have gone with "The C'Tan did it!" :p

Dicey
12-12-2007, 12:33
Its a marketing ploy, so you can create your own founding legion

Lord Malorne
12-12-2007, 12:34
NO NO NO...They and there Legions have been exiled to another galaxy after an unknown reason...

my favorite theory!
(BTW my spelling sucks)

My Theory is that GW Will NEVER EVER do the missing legions. (Sound of crying) not even tell us the names of the primarchs or legion...all we have is fan theory and propaganda...

Which some could argue was GWs intention all along though i doubt they are this as i see them as a lazy down sizing machine! Grrr!

Slazton
12-12-2007, 12:41
So now people are just repeating exactly what I typed in post #43. I beleive we have already argued the fact they went MIA, tried to attack the EMperor or my personal favourite they were horriably disfigured.

Maybe I should go cheesey and just type well C'Tan ate them or heck even type that the Outsider found them and invited them into the Dyson Sphere for tea and crumpets.

pookie
12-12-2007, 12:41
My Theory is that GW Will NEVER EVER do the missing legions. (Sound of crying) not even tell us the names of the primarchs or legion...all we have is fan theory and propaganda

unfortunatly its already been rumored that at least one of the Legions will be mentioned in the next HH book ( legion )

im still going with the Sqauts Ate em!

The Warmaster
12-12-2007, 12:55
unfortunatly its already been rumored that at least one of the Legions will be mentioned in the next HH book ( legion )

Does anyone have a link to the interview in which this was mentioned? I can't seem to find it.

- N.

Daemonslave
12-12-2007, 16:18
Maybe they tried to usurp the emperor? they attempted to attack him directly in way that Horus didnt. Like the emperor acompanies the legions and they turned? Emperor would have been most likely furious enought to expunge them.

Then again, they could have been successful.

Clockwork-Knight
12-12-2007, 16:43
Does anyone have a link to the interview in which this was mentioned? I can't seem to find it.

- N.I second that. Where has this been mentioned?

Daemonslave
12-12-2007, 16:59
I think people are jumping to conclusions. It was rumoured for a long while that Legion would contain information about one of the Lost Legions. Then, later, during an interview, Abnett stated that Legion would contain at least four major secrets that would "forever change peoples opinions towards established canon" or words to that effect. Hence they believe that this means the lost Legions.

Supremearchmarshal
12-12-2007, 17:16
Then, later, during an interview, Abnett stated that Legion would contain at least four major secrets that would "forever change peoples opinions towards established canon"

I prefer that secrets such as these remain secrets... 40k should have its mysteries. Revealing them just takes away the magic of it for me.

Clockwork-Knight
12-12-2007, 17:27
However, what secrets is he talking about anyway? If it's the shoe-size of the Emperor, wether he likes pop or rock, if Alpharius is blond or black-haired, and if Horus can dance a Tango, nobody would really care about it, for sure. :p

GreenDracoBob
12-12-2007, 20:43
Actually, the secret is my favorite pet theory:

"Alpharius did it."

He released the C'Tan, created the Old Ones, and encouraged Chaos worship, therefore setting up the entire 40k universe with his time machine. :eek:

How's that for changing established canon? :)

Kandarin
13-12-2007, 14:42
I prefer that secrets such as these remain secrets... 40k should have its mysteries. Revealing them just takes away the magic of it for me.

The caveat is that revealing the answers to readers' questions, when done right, creates more questions.

Lord Malorne
13-12-2007, 14:51
you say keep it a secret! for it to be a secret there needs to be a secret...that is an answer. so its not a secret it has not even been declared what it is then kept secret.

Its confusing so read twice.

Feor
13-12-2007, 20:57
ctually, the secret is my favorite pet theory:

"Alpharius did it."

He released the C'Tan, created the Old Ones, and encouraged Chaos worship, therefore setting up the entire 40K universe with his time machine.

How's that for changing established canon?

Poetic justice on all the previous GW writers? :p

fantomex
13-12-2007, 21:20
Gotta admit, the background to the whole heresy is so rich, and there are so many theories, that it could almost be anything.

However, I am gonna try and add my own views, starting with some obvious canon facts.

1 - The Emperor "embellishes the truth". He may not lie (though he may lie), but he can leave out details if needed, so as to not arouse too much suspicion.

2 - There were 20 primarchs, all of whom were discovered by the Emperor.

3 - Horus knew something about Legion XI's primarch.

4 - Rogal Dorn knew something about XI and II's primarchs.

5 - Chaos comes in many forms, even non-chaotic forms. It is the master of disguise and deceit.

6 - The traitor legions were primarch-loyal first, not emperor. The loyal legions were primarch and emperor-loyal, no difference. The primarchs were the emissaries for the emperors wishes.

With these titbits of info, allow me to ruminate upon my own theories!
Disclaimer: Apologies for any stealing of others theories, I have just finished off a bottle of champagne, and as such cannot make much sense out of what you all say, though have undoubtedly nabbed some of it!:D

My (loose) Theories, in no particular order..

1 - The Emperor discovered Primarch XI first. This primarch was gifted with his legion and sent off to crush/kill/destroy. Chaos then posessed said primarch and some choice troops, sparking off a butchery spree through his own legion. The Emperor himself is forced to dispatch said primarch, and Horus (when made warmaster) is told of "magical forces", etc, simply to keep him away from the actual knowledge of Chaos, for his own wellbeing..

1a - Primarch XI could have been discovered by the Emperor, and then led his forces away into the Eye of Terror (on orders), since the Emperor would not have told anyone back then about daemonic posession, etc.. (Remember Horus Rising?) Surely the entire legion, filled with fresh young geneseed, Astartes at their peak, would have been too much of a temptation? Heck, this could have happened on any planet, after all Chaos comes in many guises!

2 - If the Emperor did initially seek the Chaos powers to create the primarchs, these powers had to have rebuffed his request for help, and as such, he would have had to do this under his own ability. He knows what the chaos powers are like, and his abilities can counteract them, so that can (kinda) rule out any chaotic influence on their creation. Therefore, there probably would not have been any "Chaos Primarchs" as we would think of them.

3 - The Emperor discovered all of the Primarchs in a live form. This means that they were present at some point from roughly M29.000 onwards (fluff allowing, I'm too far gone to look it up now..)

4 - Horus was told of something happening with Primarch XI, a "waste of potential." This could be a waste of potential as a valuable warrior in the holy crusade for the Imperium, or a waste of potential as a force of malevolent evil.. Who knows what mindset Horus was in when being healed? He had expressed greed and evil before that, yet remorse once beaten by the Emperor, which potential was wasted for Primarch XI?

5 - Rogal Dorn was the best hope for the Imperium at the time of realising a heresy was taking place. He was the nearest to Terra, a seige master, and unfailingly loyal. As such the Emperor felt compelled to relinquish some secrets about the Primarchs' findings, each Primarch was found in different circumstances, after all, coincidence or not? The Emperor confided in Dorn many secrets, including knowledge of aberrations, etc.. This could be the Primarchs, could be other items vital to their stories..

5a - Not all the Primarchs were major psykers. Some, like Horus, developed better psyker abilities when they turned to Chaos. If II and XI were forewarnings, as Dorn believes, could primarch II have been found by Horus and put to death before his heresy begins?
Horus could have found the Primarch on one of the planets up for Illumination, after the Emperor had returned to Terra. This Primarch could have been a Magnus-powerful psyker, able to show Horus his future should he stray from the true Imperial path. Thinking this witchcraft of the worst kind, Horus could have put said Primarch to the sword, but not without said psyker-Primarch feeling his own link to the Emperor through Horus' own memories, and contacting him with an early warning.
The Emperor would have forgiven Horus at this juncture, since he was uninformed about a lot of psyker abilities, and could have seen this as an accident, rather than a deliberate heretical action..

6 - The missing Primarchs could have been *immensely* powerful. Powerful enough to rival the Emperor normally in the way Horus rivalled the Emperor at the end of the Heresy. They could literally have been too dangerous to survive, lest they become minions of Chaos/other major galactic powers..

And of course, the general theories that we all have:

The Primarchs could have died. That easily. After all, they may have been powerful, but they were in metal wombs! Not Intergalactic Travel Pods™, so it is understandable that they may die in transit through space, that place of no atmosphere and so-cold-your-flesh-may-shatter temperatures..
The Primarchs could have been the first found (and recorded in the Imperial Archives), then sent away into far galaxies to expand the Imperium, then got lost, etc.. (Damn over-zealous Emperor..)
They could have been taken by Chaos and had numerous things done to them.. Grr!
TEHY r tEh CUSTODIANZZ AND TEH GrEy KnIgHtS!!!111LLLOLOZOR! (No, they aren't. You gimps. Read everything else in 40k, then tell me it's true.)
They could be Sigmar and that other guy (I don't know jack about WH Fantasy, go figure..)
They could be called Ian Livingstone and Steve Jackson, seemingly away from the 40k franchise, but still overlooking, like invisible 5th and 6th Chaos gods! (Long shot..)


Ok, I've theorised/rambled/procrastinated long enough, you lot sort it out! Or easier, let Dan Abnett decide it, then take it as gospel (I will, I'm no Abnett-hater!):D

Also, what is this Lightning Tower book? I can't find it on the Black Library site, yet am desperate to read it..

</novel-sized post>

Supremearchmarshal
13-12-2007, 23:12
The caveat is that revealing the answers to readers' questions, when done right, creates more questions.

Well I guess that'd be ok, as long as it's done right (fingers crossed)

Lisiecki
14-12-2007, 04:12
Sigh
Codex: Chaos Space Marines

All 20 primarchs were found
All 20 lead there legions on the great crusade

The Warmaster
14-12-2007, 12:41
Also, what is this Lightning Tower book? I can't find it on the Black Library site, yet am desperate to read it..

It's one of two stories in the Horus Heresy chapbook, a limited edition publication released a month or two ago (I think it was released for a certain Games Day, but I'm not sure). It's in the Horus Heresy section of the Black Library store, but there aren't any copies left.


Sigh
Codex: Chaos Space Marines

All 20 primarchs were found
All 20 lead there legions on the great crusade

THANK YOU.

Why won't people get it?

- N.

Nerak
04-01-2008, 21:17
OMG, I love this theread. I was thinking of posting a(nother) "What happened to the 2 missing primarchs/legions thread but actually did some reaserch and found this one. After having read it all I do, just like everyone else, have a few theories. Both those I would want to have happened. like: the primarchs and their legions where lost in the warp and finally arrived in the galaxy next to the 40k galaxy. There, not knowing where they where and with no comunication, they established their own empire and will someday join the imperium of man... But that could never have happened (nothing supports it and it's not even the least believable, but it would be cool^^).

The theroies I like the most (exept for the one stated above) is that "They are sealed away, hidden from sight and are only to be reveald during humanities last days" and "they are a part of the Emperors bodyguards, for good reasons they became an addition to the bodyguards and now guard the temple (please note that this would mean that they borded Horus ship during the battle for terra)

But of course we all knew that: "The squads ate them!" Is the best theory ever.
Actually, there might be more to that theory than you would think since if they actually where "eaten"/"Utterely beaten"/"Completly destroyed" by a lesser race they would most certanly discrase the crusade and all it's primarchs and therfore be stricken from the archives. Maybe only the other primarchs got to know what happened to them (then again, maybe not)

Overt_Spy
05-01-2008, 05:39
Here's what I think: One of the primarchs is Grimnir, one of the ancestor gods of the Dwarfs. Just think about it, he disappears after venturing towards the Chaos Wastes to close the Chaos gate. Seems to me he traveled through the Chaos gate after fighting and killing any chaos beastie that got in his way, and closing the chaos gate (probably just for fun), and ended up in the WH40K universe. The emperor would no doubt find him and recognize him as one of his sons, obviously his squatty son, but none the less his son.

His fate however, is unknown, although it is 'tragic'. Like most primarchs he would most likely be to strong to be killed, unless by the hands of another primarch or equally powerful entity. My best guess would be that whilst leading his legion, he was attacked by some kind of space giant, who knew he could not best Primarch Grimnir in combat, so he simply picked up the stunty primarch and stuffed him down his space trousers, and then just ran off into the abyss. The lost primarch would be trapped, unable to fight his way out of the ceramite trousers. His fate would reach back towards the emperor, and he would expunge the history of his son, due to the graphic and dishonorable fate of the primarch.

His legion would all feel so ashamed of allowing their beloved primarch to be trapped in such a putrid location, all shaved their heads, save for a crest which they dyed a bright orange, and then went to find the space giant and kill it, or they themselves be killed in the process of their search.

That's my theory, and it works perfectly well with both the hints from the HH novels: 1) Horus thinking the lost primarch being 'wastes' so to speak, obviously referring to the size of the lost primarch Grimnir. Though Grimnir would be nearly 5 feet tall, and a giant amongst dwarfs, he simply was too short for Astartes, evident by him being stuffed down someone's pants.

2) Dorn suggesting they could have been warnings, well look what happened to the legion that followed Grimnir, they turned ultra badass, but ultimately disappeared to their fates. They should have understood what a Primarch's loss would do to their respective legions, and then do the whole second founding splitty thing then.

Seriously, just think about it, it all fits. Sigmar was no Primarch, he was just some dude with a hammer...and who made that hammer? The Dwarfs... and who is one of the Ancestor gods, who also happens to be one of the primarchs created by the emperor? :eek:

Legion I: The Dark Angels - Lion El'Jonson
Legion II: The Ale Masters - Grimnir
Legion III: Emperor's Children - Fulgrim

That's how I view it, and until GW publishes something that contradicts my line of thinking, I won't change it.

I don't really think I should say this, but if I don't someone will think I'm serious: </sarcasm>

Nazguire
05-01-2008, 08:02
Here's what I think: One of the primarchs is Grimnir, one of the ancestor gods of the Dwarfs. Just think about it, he disappears after venturing towards the Chaos Wastes to close the Chaos gate. Seems to me he traveled through the Chaos gate after fighting and killing any chaos beastie that got in his way, and closing the chaos gate (probably just for fun), and ended up in the WH40K universe. The emperor would no doubt find him and recognize him as one of his sons, obviously his squatty son, but none the less his son.

His fate however, is unknown, although it is 'tragic'. Like most primarchs he would most likely be to strong to be killed, unless by the hands of another primarch or equally powerful entity. My best guess would be that whilst leading his legion, he was attacked by some kind of space giant, who knew he could not best Primarch Grimnir in combat, so he simply picked up the stunty primarch and stuffed him down his space trousers, and then just ran off into the abyss. The lost primarch would be trapped, unable to fight his way out of the ceramite trousers. His fate would reach back towards the emperor, and he would expunge the history of his son, due to the graphic and dishonorable fate of the primarch.

His legion would all feel so ashamed of allowing their beloved primarch to be trapped in such a putrid location, all shaved their heads, save for a crest which they dyed a bright orange, and then went to find the space giant and kill it, or they themselves be killed in the process of their search.

That's my theory, and it works perfectly well with both the hints from the HH novels: 1) Horus thinking the lost primarch being 'wastes' so to speak, obviously referring to the size of the lost primarch Grimnir. Though Grimnir would be nearly 5 feet tall, and a giant amongst dwarfs, he simply was too short for Astartes, evident by him being stuffed down someone's pants.

2) Dorn suggesting they could have been warnings, well look what happened to the legion that followed Grimnir, they turned ultra badass, but ultimately disappeared to their fates. They should have understood what a Primarch's loss would do to their respective legions, and then do the whole second founding splitty thing then.

Seriously, just think about it, it all fits. Sigmar was no Primarch, he was just some dude with a hammer...and who made that hammer? The Dwarfs... and who is one of the Ancestor gods, who also happens to be one of the primarchs created by the emperor? :eek:

Legion I: The Dark Angels - Lion El'Jonson
Legion II: The Ale Masters - Grimnir
Legion III: Emperor's Children - Fulgrim

That's how I view it, and until GW publishes something that contradicts my line of thinking, I won't change it.

I don't really think I should say this, but if I don't someone will think I'm serious: </sarcasm>


The WFB and 40k universes are seperate in everything other then the concept of the Chaos Gods and the generic 'orcs' and 'elves' concepts. No dice.

The Warmaster
05-01-2008, 09:20
The WFB and 40k universes are seperate in everything other then the concept of the Chaos Gods and the generic 'orcs' and 'elves' concepts. No dice.

He said he was kidding at the end of his post...

- N.

Nazguire
05-01-2008, 09:34
He said he was kidding at the end of his post...

- N.

Should read the end of the post I should.

The Warmaster
05-01-2008, 09:44
Should read the end of the post I should.

An oversight that can be forgiven.

- N.

Daemonslave
05-01-2008, 10:12
Let's use Occam's Razor for a moment;

Which 'non-Primarch' has the following attributes;

The size of a Primarch
The strength of a Primarch
The fighting ability of a Primarch
Charisma of a Primarch
Warp based/Psychic powers of a Primarch

Was raised on a human populated world

Rose to become an influencial person or great leader

Took part in the Great Crusade

Was probably found before the other Primarchs

;)

lastspartacus
05-01-2008, 11:24
the emperor?

The Warmaster
05-01-2008, 11:52
the emperor?

Well, the Emperor could not have been a Primarch, for reasons too painfully obvious for me to bother mentioning.

... Is it Chuck Norris?

- N.

Daemonslave
05-01-2008, 12:01
Well, the Emperor could not have been a Primarch, for reasons too painfully obvious for me to bother mentioning.



Please explain - ignore the pain.

templar1013
06-01-2008, 03:26
First off, this is a great thread. I love the speculation and theories, great reading!

My contribution:
The Imperium is an Authoritarian (Totalitarian? Insert correct term here...) government, so the higher ups pretty much have absolute power. A good comparison to make may be that of 40k and 1984 by...George Orwell? Going by memory... Anyway, For those who dont know, in 1984 the government pretty much rewrites history to suit their purpose. So, we can apply this same principle to 40k, that is to say, we really know nothing. Remember, 40k history is delivered (mostly) from an Imperial point of view, and therefore COULD be a complete fabrication.

Based on this, who is to say that Horus didnt WIN during the Heresy and that he's not using his power (the Inquisition) to make the Imperium become the stagnant and slowly dying Empire that it is? For that matter, what proof is there that the Primarchs did not ALL turn to Chaos. Youll notice the only ones living and accounted for are Traitors. The only thing that is sure is the "present", and there are any number of possibilities that may have led to the "present." Everyone seems so sure that "this happened because X" or "this happened because Y" but we dont really know that because we dont know who is writing this all down. History is written by the winner. Who won? The winner is not necesarily going to portray himself as what he really is.

So basically, any of the theories could be true. Or none, given that for all we know based on this logic the primarchs might never have existed.

Obviously, these theories ive presented are a little over the top, but its just fun to consider every possibillity.

Deus Mechanicus
06-01-2008, 03:38
Sigmar is obviously meant to be one of the missing primarchs.

ryng_sting
06-01-2008, 12:23
Except that Sigmar was actually born to a mummy and a daddy who loved each other very much, and the two universes, as has already been pointed out, aren't linked.

malika
06-01-2008, 12:31
Didnt the Albion campaign had all sorts of 40k goodies?

The fluff states that all 20 Primarchs were found and all of them had their Legions. Its very possible that they travelled too far and are still somewhere out there. It might have also been possible that they did not agree with how the Imperium was being run and either rebelled or dissapeared (either leaving the Imperium or just hiding).

Horus' dream should be taken with a pinch of salt since its very possible its a full fabrication instead of something that actually happened.

Hasan ibn Sabbah
06-01-2008, 12:34
I think that If Sigmar was one of two primarchs that we don't know... well, the vision of about 1000 superhuman beings in ceramite armor, bolters, with god like primarh, shooting to death all high/dark/wood elf things, kicking dwarfs in butt and making lizardman-grill party.

Daemonslave
06-01-2008, 14:07
As ryng_sting has mentioned, the fact that Sigmar was born to a mummy and daddy rules him out, plus the timelines don't match anyway.

The Dark Elves were corrupted by a Slaanesh cult and seperated from the normal Elves thousands of years before Sigmar was born. However in 40k, the Primarchs were created and lost before Slaanesh was born (immediately prior to the start of the Great Crusade). Since there isn't a period of thousands of years between the Primarchs being lost and the Great Crusade starting that rules Sigmar out.

Ghost Of Caliban
06-01-2008, 21:37
As others have said, they fought in the crusade, and Horus's comment in the HH book leans toward an early tragic end for the legions. At least thats how it comes off to me. The real question is what could they have done (or have done to them) to have information about them eradicated? MY first thought was they turned to chaos and were immediately destroyed, thus making it easy to erase the stain from imperial history, but thats too dumb and corny. Im pretty much leaning toward something like: GW not coming up with ideas for them, or leaving open spaces for something to work with in the future....or just to screw with our minds like what there doing with cypher and how the final battle(s) will work out.


All imperial forces are basically completely ignorant of chaos untill lorgar makes contact with the warp though...
To have them completely erased from Imperial history is a massive step and there deeds or mis deeds would have had to have been equally tragic to warrent it...perhaps their genes were unstable becuase of some taint and their legions became unstable and mutated, but surely to kill a primarch and his legion you need another primarch OR the emperor himself...

LexxBomb
07-01-2008, 03:59
As ryng_sting has mentioned, the fact that Sigmar was born to a mummy and daddy rules him out, plus the timelines don't match anyway.

The Dark Elves were corrupted by a Slaanesh cult and seperated from the normal Elves thousands of years before Sigmar was born. However in 40k, the Primarchs were created and lost before Slaanesh was born (immediately prior to the start of the Great Crusade). Since there isn't a period of thousands of years between the Primarchs being lost and the Great Crusade starting that rules Sigmar out.

actually the primarchs were lost after Slannesh was created. the day after the Emperor did not start the Great Crusade. it took hundreds of years for him to organise the Conquest of Teror and then the Primarch Porject and then the space marine project. if you take into account this concept which is actually old fluff then the whfb time line still stands

Nazguire
07-01-2008, 10:25
actually the primarchs were lost after Slannesh was created. the day after the Emperor did not start the Great Crusade. it took hundreds of years for him to organise the Conquest of Teror and then the Primarch Porject and then the space marine project. if you take into account this concept which is actually old fluff then the whfb time line still stands

He had already conquered Terra by the time the Warp Storms abated during the Birth of Slaanesh. The Primarch project had already begun in the latter stages of the Conquest of Terra. The Great Crusade only took two hundred and a bit years before the Horus Heresy occured.

LexxBomb
07-01-2008, 10:54
so your saying that the Empeor conqured Terra and was waiting for Slannesh to be born so that he could then go out and reunite all of humanity. Yep that makes alot of sense when you take into account things such as Civilisations grown up around the worship of Slannesh as a god. that takes time, not like 200 years as you would put it hell it took Christians almost 1000 years before they could claim something similar.
Wasn't the Slanneshi Possessed Sword wielded by Fulgrim described as being Ancient. it takes more then 1000 years before you can describe something as Ancient.

Flame Boy
07-01-2008, 21:42
Didn't the descriptions of the Primarchs at some point claim that they all had wierd abilities, listing invisibility as one of them? Maybe that Primarch's legion got fed up playing Marco Polo with the invisible man and just disbanded?

I know, that's the dumbest idea ever, but I was trying so hard to come up with something unique with some kind of justification in the background.

I think I'm inclined to go with the fleet destroyed in a warp storm theory. If Dorn mused if they were a warning of the future, perhaps it's a hint towards the malign nature of the Chaos gods rather than of betrayal?

Ghost Of Caliban
07-01-2008, 22:09
if they are making the call now that legion will change the cannon expect it to be a big rewrite and or at least a tying together of a couple of theories with something know ones thought of. but probably not more than what Dorn has said already. In terms of a primarchs life span the 200 years of the great crusade is not a long time, 4 human generations really. And if the Primarchs we're read anout knew about the deaths of II and XI surely a day of mourning would have been declared throughout the imperium? or a rememberance or something? look at ulanor that was a celebration but a primarchs funeral? taht would have been big news...

Satone
07-01-2008, 22:39
Love this thread.
Anyway topic in hand; While i agree the time lines are out for the 2 missing primarchs to be sigmar and be`lakor, it is entirely possible. These timelines and GW fluff are all over the place, lets be honest lol. But again as has been discussed why cant the worlds of fantasy and 40k to intertwined, where in if you read the liber chaotica why would the scribe be seeing into the 40k universe. Why would the scribe detail it as part of the same world but in his dreams.
My 2 cents. The truth is out there

Warboss Jhura Ironfang
07-01-2008, 22:57
Here's an idea, way off as it is...

<long post starts and I'm giving ya fair warning>

The two missing Primarches are the twin deities known as Gork'n'Mork.

Don't kill me, just hear me out for a minute. (you can shoot me later)

No fluff I've read for 40k gives detail on the Orky gods besides "one is kunningly brutal, and the other brutally kunning." There is no known time that the ork gods appeared, and I cannot find any fluff that states the Imperium fought greenies before the Great Crusade. Therefore, the twin Primarches could have become the gods after the Orks fought them. Since Orks only respect strength, this seems even more likely. We all know about the gestalt WAAAGH!-field, which may be one Primarch's(Mork) psychic influence on the greenskin's mind. This leaves bashin' stuff ded fer good to the larger, more deadly military Primarch(Gork).

The Orks were originally a super race made by the "Brainboyz" to cleanse the Unniverse. However, with the disappearence of the Brainboyz, the orks were left leaderless and godless. Once the Primarchs met the greenies, they assumed a position of power over the cowed and demoralized orks. The squabbling bit may stem from the two constantly fighting for power between themselves (Horus and Emperor connection?). Besides, who doesn't want a nigh-endless army of loyal warriors and ramshackle red trukkz. This all happened after the loss the two Primarchs' legions to battle losses/warp virus/bad eggs ;).

As such the connection stands.

As for the missing bits of fluff, Dorn may have known of "Gork'n'Mork's" fall and thought of them as a dire warning of heresy. Horus would have seen them as a loss to the Imperium and then Chaos depending on your POV.
Once the Emperor found out about them, he got really mad, stormed off and had all records of them destroyed.

Alright, let rip thy chainswords and bolters so ye may hunt me down. :skull:

Cheerz,
WB Ironfang

<long post ends>

Commander Dante
07-01-2008, 23:09
lol. i was wondering myself what if the missing primarchs had landed on and had became the rulers of a xenos world. Just imagine a Primarch landing Ork world? he would be like the boogie monster to green skins.

LexxBomb
07-01-2008, 23:47
ha a diganob Primarch

Alpharius
08-01-2008, 02:01
Actually, the secret is my favorite pet theory:

"Alpharius did it."

He released the C'Tan, created the Old Ones, and encouraged Chaos worship, therefore setting up the entire 40k universe with his time machine. :eek:

How's that for changing established canon? :)

Now we're finally getting somewhere! :cool:

Colonel Marbi Chora
08-01-2008, 03:17
But, for one, the number could have been mirrored. So XI (11) turns to IX (9) aka. Blood Angels. Now what happened to their Primarch?

Well, here. The blood angels primarch (the great Sanguinous) was killed by Horus during the Seige of Terra, near the end. And concerning Sigmar, they say that he just "disappeared". Isn't it plausable that the emperor felt a scrap of his psyker beacon and taken him away? But, in the WHFB backstory, it takls about how Warpstone still falls upon it time to time, and there is a high concentration of daemonic forces. Couldn't it be surrounded and shileded by a warp-storm? Sigmar shows many cases of him being a primarch.
1. He's bloody huge.
2. He's slaughtered fields of orcs, like the other primarchs have done to similar enemies.
3. He rose to the main power of his tribe, the Unborgeons, and conquored most of the remaining tribes.
4. Sigmar simply emenated psker powers, passed onto others, now know as mages or the priests.

For as much as we can glean from documents of the empire and comapisons to other primarchs, Sigmar is amongst them! He was probably one of the lost ones, but it adds such intrigue that those two are covered up. It makes it so gamers study the backstory!

dr.oetk3r
08-01-2008, 03:19
I thought GW has said many times that w40k and warhammer fantasy are two completely unrelated universes.

So Saguinius ai'nt Sigmar.

Ghost Of Caliban
08-01-2008, 04:25
yes been said many times...maybe they were thinkning about doing that then discarded it and that's why the fluff insinuates that he could have been a primarch....

The Warmaster
08-01-2008, 05:53
Didn't the descriptions of the Primarchs at some point claim that they all had wierd abilities, listing invisibility as one of them? Maybe that Primarch's legion got fed up playing Marco Polo with the invisible man and just disbanded?

It's kind of funny how no one seems to notice that the Alpha Legion IA article hints at Alpharius being able to "disappear" (a term often used to describe what happens to something that turns invisible). So it's quite likely that Alpharius is the Primarch with powers of invisibility.

- N.

Daemonslave
08-01-2008, 18:30
Invisibility can take many forms, such as;


The Emperor, clad in a long, plain robe, entered King Leman Russ court Through a yawning cave mouth in the south of Fenris he came. His divine aura was hidden from the curious eyes of the King's court and his towering physique was cloaked with runes of disguise and confusion. Half his face was within the shadow of his hood. In his hands he carried the oaken staff of the wanderer, But to the sharp-eyed and sober, his nature was clear: The great wolves of Fenris slunk away at the strangers passing.

Tehkonrad
09-01-2008, 06:53
Regarding the quote from Horus Rising, I agree that it sounds like he dies/disappears early, but that is only what Horus is aware of, and it could mean early in the Great Crusade.
I think this what happened
Primarch XI: Alright legion are we ready
Legion X:Primarch yes Primarch
Primarch XI:I declare this legions crusade started!!!!!
*raises power sword loosens grip while admiring how shiny his armour is. Sword falls and impales his face*
Big E:wow 9 seconds into the crusade and one primarch gone...

Meathook
09-01-2008, 16:32
I think I got this whole "wasted potential" Horus and Dorn were talking about. Well we all know bout how each and ever chapter and legion is the most something of some. Powerful, silent, sneaky, smart, bloodthirsty, zealous, whatever. Well I figure that the two "missing" primarchs were the ones who didn't do anything with their life.

They got a bitchin' camero, picked up some beer, watched MTV in their basements and smoked some pot. This is how we can explain the two "missing" primarchs and legions,and how each legion or chapter is the "bestest" at something. I mean they just disappeared into their parents' basements never to be seen again. And frankly, what kinda dad is gonna go toutin' these two around to the rest of his extended family (ie: rest of mankind).

For prime examples of this, look no fruther then Bob and Doug McKenzie, hosts of "the Great White North."

icag1
04-08-2011, 17:05
I'm pretty sure it hints in either 'Thousand Sons' or 'Prospero Burns' that the Space Wolves were sent in to 'sanction' at least one of the two missing legions and/ or Primarchs. I think there is a paragraph where one of the Primarchs (prob. Magnus in Thousand Sons I think) is musing 'O if only He was still here' and one of his guards quickly says 'blah blah you know we can't mention this'...

I just thought if anybody hasn't read them then I'm really sorry:(:cries: But as we're all geeks here i'm assuming you have :):D

Right, just read last post date and it was over 3yr ago so i'm just going to quietly stroll over to the painting section and hope this never comes up again.......

Lord Commissar Aquila
04-08-2011, 17:42
Some of the newer HH books seem to point at that the 2 "missing" legions might have been incorporated into the Ultramarines after their primarchs were "lost". Not supprisingly, it also seems from those newer books that the 2 primarchs commited some grave deed that caused them to be either cast out or killed, their legions disbanded(with some members possibly being killed by supporting their primarch's deed or whatever), and all records of them erased. The only ones who probably knew about their fate were the primarchs and the Emperor, and since both survivng primarchs are currently "asleep" and the Emperor's on life support, its probable that we won't know exactly the fate of those 2 mission legions.

starlight
04-08-2011, 18:38
Right, just read last post date and it was over 3yr ago so i'm just going to quietly stroll over to the painting section and hope this never comes up again.......

Good call... :shifty:


...its probable that we won't know exactly the fate of those 2 mission legions.

That's been the point for the last 25 years.


Oh and Threadcromancy = not a good idea... :p


Thread Closed... :shifty: