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milktoast
15-04-2005, 00:10
I wonder if GW has left Chaos Dwarfs forever? Is the Ravening Horde list the last list there will be or are there any future plans for exaample a WD list? What are the arguments from GW (wild guess: not selling)? Not a big fan of CD, still think it's sad when races dissappear... (ok, the handlers of the hellcannon)

Slappy
15-04-2005, 00:14
They are fine. Plenty of models on ebay and trading forums. The rules are there. You can assemble an entire army and play with it, and competitively I might add. I don't see GW needing to bother with it for now.

taer
15-04-2005, 00:26
I think they should. Sneaky gits are psycho-crazy-insane good for 5 points. WAY overpowered. I think they are the most powerful infantry unit in the game in fact. For 5 points, too!

milktoast
15-04-2005, 00:27
Ok, they've models and rules. But I still don't think either of them are of the same quality as the armies that got new books in the latest Ed, sort of a relic army (and I don't mean in a cool way) Imagine what new models, units, items could do to CD. not necessarily regarding how competitive they are but rathet how they look on the tabletop and their overall character (the rules).

Lady Bastet
15-04-2005, 00:54
Chaos Dwarves are very much alive and well in the background- the Ogre Kingdoms book mentions them not just in passing but in several places.

That plus the Hellcannon seems to be putting the Chaos Dwarves in a very new light- more a dark industrial force than the Slavers they once were.

I think their "new look" would be so cool as an army.

LaughinGremlin
15-04-2005, 01:54
I think that CD has more characterful potential than ANY other race that has been ignored or simply fantasized up to this point, and that includes the never-gonna-happen Nippon, Cathay, and Araby lists. IF a new list comes out after WE, it should be CD. It would be easy - the space is there for them on the map. The fluff is there. The crazy CD players (me and four other people) are there... :D

Wargamejunkie
15-04-2005, 02:26
Well, I think they are moving towards bringing the CD to the front, I think they have been planning it for a while, the hell cannons, ogre kingdoms with a direct map location where they are at. I would look for them to be out sometime next year I hope. As to the slaver/industrial look I think they will become a combination of the two, using slaves to build their crazy war-machines. I can also see them having a specific unit with the life is cheap rule also.

taer
15-04-2005, 02:38
The problem, I've heard from hearsay, is that they want to avoid making chaos dwarves just an evil army that plays like regular dwarves, or like an army that has slower chaos warrios. I also remember something that *if* they decide to do the CD, they want to steer clear of all the greenskin units. Afterall, the current list has more Gobbos and orcs in it than it does dwarves.

LaughinGremlin
15-04-2005, 02:48
I'd love it if the greenskins got the axe. The trend has been Empire = just humans and no halflings/ogres for instance, so that's why I wouldn't be surprised to see the greenies either mostly or entirely removed. I guess I wouldn't mind just the hobgoblins remaining so that hobbos wouldn't fall of the face off the earth. If I had it my way, Hobbos would be one of the new contingents, and CD would be on their own. Slaves would just exist for fluff reasons.

taer
15-04-2005, 02:51
I think just a generic slaves unit would be cool. And I like the idea of them having the life is cheap rule. Other than that, they would be utter rubish.

I'd also like them to either axe the blunderbusses, or make them not so ridiculous, and more "normal"

Festus
15-04-2005, 16:15
Hi

I think they should. Sneaky gits are psycho-crazy-insane good for 5 points. WAY overpowered. I think they are the most powerful infantry unit in the game in fact. For 5 points, too!
As many of you know, I own and play with a CD army of over 5000 points since the 4th Ed.

And I never ever thought that Sneaky Gits are worth their points.

1. To be effective, one has to receive a charge and stand afterwards.
Face it - this is not gonna happen if you don't keep the general around. They are Hobgobs after all.

If you put your General close enough to them, the War Machines and Stuff will not be in the general vincinity and run as soon as something scary arrives.

2. A sufficient unit of SGs has to be at least 40 models strong. (Not counting the huge outlay of cash this represents, with them being metal AND hard to find), this means at least 230 points including the command.

Any unit of a similar or higher cost they could beat has a nice time evading them and tackling your CD Warriors or War MAchines instead, because those units are usually better at doing this anyways.

The only other units are weedy infantry units, which rarely let the SGs earn their points back.

Just my 2c.

And I know that this is more of a tactics-article...

Greetings
Festus

Wargamejunkie
15-04-2005, 23:06
While I agree they should loose most of the goblins, I think they should keep the hogoblins as the fast calvary aspect of the army. Have a slave unit with the life is cheap rule, throw in some crazy techo-sorcery and call it a date. The thing that I fear is that is will end up playing like a slightly slower chaos army. Either way I want to see them brought back the more armies the better.

Festus
15-04-2005, 23:13
If you ask me:

Have ALL Slave units with the *life is cheap* rule :)
(That's more or less an accurate interpretation of my playing style nonethetheless)

Greetings
Festus

taer
16-04-2005, 04:05
I think that they should have a greater portion of daemon-engines (and not all of the shooting variety. Seems to me there is precedent from a very old Chaos Dwarf model to make a chariot-like daemon engine) And a high concentration of movement based spells in their spell lore and magic item selection.

Oh, and giant furry hedgehogs

metro_gnome
17-04-2005, 14:37
hehe furry hedge hogs...

i've posted my demonology treatise over here:

http://www.portent.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1261

i see this as the future of chaos dwarves...

Stouty
17-04-2005, 14:42
I would collect them now if their models weren't so, well, poo.

Vogon
17-04-2005, 15:54
This was something that did the rounds on Portent before the crash. I kept it as I'm an occasional chaos dwarf player myself and m patiently waiting for the one day.


As I explained this in the last couple of event seminars, it's only fair I explain this here.

1. The other WD lists were 'work in progress', designed to bridge the gap between Ravening Hordes and the army book, because we knew there would be quite a wait. There has been little work in progress on the Chaos Dwarfs and so there is nothing to draw on for an update list.

2. When we redo Chaos Dwarfs, it will be as a full army, much expanded on the previous WD list. For this reason, it will work off a Chaos Dwarf theme much more, rather than relying on a swathe of the Orcs and Goblins miniatures range. At the present time there are no miniatures to represent these possible additions, or even ones suitable for conversion, and so any update list would not include these and essentially be a rehash of Ravening Hordes therefore pointless.

3. Most importantly, I think it is more unfair to promote an army and a miniatures range that is, in most respects, defunct. I have always said that it would be an act of gross bad customer service for us to do anything which would encourage the opinion that Chaos Dwarfs will return anytime soon. When they return, they will return, but I'm not going to toss the dog a bone just to look nice when in fact, it would be a pointless gesture.

GAV"

milktoast
17-04-2005, 19:04
Ok vogon, that's pretty much the answer to my initial question I guess, thanks. What's the prox date of this info?

Stouty
18-04-2005, 19:32
When our second moon is at its closest point to our third.

Odin
18-04-2005, 20:09
"1. To be effective, one has to receive a charge and stand afterwards."

Er, no, not really - sneaky gitz are supposed to be, well, sneaky. They're not a unit designed to take charges, more to flank enemy units which are already in combat.

"If you put your General close enough to them, the War Machines and Stuff will not be in the general vincinity and run as soon as something scary arrives."

Well, the Bolt throwers might have that problem, but I don't think your Earthshakers or Death Rockets will have that problem.

"2. A sufficient unit of SGs has to be at least 40 models strong. (Not counting the huge outlay of cash this represents, with them being metal AND hard to find), this means at least 230 points including the command."

I'd say units of 16 should do - use them like Empire detachments, and use your nice solid Chaos Dwarfs to receive charges.

metro_gnome
18-04-2005, 21:34
i agree... they are certainly worth their points... but not the "best infantry ever"...

Festus
18-04-2005, 21:49
Hi

I'd say units of 16 should do - use them like Empire detachments, and use your nice solid Chaos Dwarfs to receive charges.
I never used them as such, I might try that...

...but I don't see much chance of it happening.
As with all Infantry (and especially Dwarf-) Armies, your oponent basically chooses the point of engagement and he wont charge headlong into your Chaos Dwarfs, if a much juicier target presents itself...

Greetings
FEstus

Stouty
18-04-2005, 21:57
Which is why there is a certain skill in forcing the opponent to charge the unit you want

wheres that rune of taunting again?

taer
19-04-2005, 00:23
I don't know, having your General and the BSB within 12" of the sneaky gits doesn't seem like a big deal to me, since CD aren't particularly suited to offensive tactics at the moment. And 40 doesn't really set you back all that many points (What, 230 with command? Big deal, Units at that cost are cheap compared to what I'm used to spending). Then they all have 2 attacks and poison, which is huge (unless you are fighting cavalry force of death from hell (Khorne chosen), and then the silly as all hell lap around rule. I wish my marauders at 5 points could do all that, or any of that.

Plaguebeast
19-04-2005, 09:01
A CD army certainly has more potential than OKs, and I think they would probably outstrip the OKs in terms of sales if they are redone properly. Their fluff is very evocative - they have created an industrial nightmare, a place shrouded in smog, a place where thousands of slaves are worked to death, a place where deamons are captured, bound and tortured. Their army could include a generic slave unit, along with lots of arcane engines, maybe bound daemons and, of course, Hobgoblin units to make the army a little faster and to distinguish it from HoC and normal Dwarves. Much more potential in my eyes than OKs (I do have an OK army though - I'm not one of the bitter people that hated them from the beginning).

Plaguebeast

milktoast
19-04-2005, 20:57
As much as I enjoy this discussion (agree that CD has a lot potential, fluffwise! Certainly worth some GW attention) I believe it's not about rumours anymore...

metro_gnome
19-04-2005, 23:10
sure is rumors... if we are talking lustria on this forum...

btw... my CD rules got moved here...

http://www.portent.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1261

thenorm42
23-04-2005, 13:20
I'm given to understand that the new Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay Old World Bestiary has an entry for the Chaos Dwarfs. That should be quite interesting ... anyone round here had a peek at it?

Norm

The Judge
23-04-2005, 21:16
The whole scope of daemonic engines has only be scratched by the Hellcannon, as can be seen by the ideas of metro_gnome. This turn of "slaver" to "binder" has been the basis of many armies in other wargaming systems, like Confrontation (Sorcerers of Dirz) and is a fluff gold mine.
Money wise - can it be a guarenteed sell? GW is more and more about the profit nowadays, and looking at the current popularity, interent aside, they seem like a dead investment. If they wanted to make money, I would be the first in line to by a samurai army, so they're not that unlikely to happen.

Xand0r
25-04-2005, 06:28
Here's a nice looking CD army for you to enjoy:
http://www.warmongerclub.com/gallery/doompa1.html

I think you could fasion some hobgoblins out of night goblins. And those little daggers in the NG plastics are great for sneaky git coversions.

ArkhathBeltaine
26-04-2005, 22:16
It's just a shame that, despite the amount of discussion on boards like this, GW thinks there is all of two people in the world interested in a new book and model range for the CD's. There are more people out there who want it than just some dude in Czech and another in Essex.

75hastings69
26-04-2005, 22:20
A CD army certainly has more potential than OKs, and I think they would probably outstrip the OKs in terms of sales if they are redone properly. Their fluff is very evocative - they have created an industrial nightmare, a place shrouded in smog, a place where thousands of slaves are worked to death, a place where deamons are captured, bound and tortured. Their army could include a generic slave unit, along with lots of arcane engines, maybe bound daemons and, of course, Hobgoblin units to make the army a little faster and to distinguish it from HoC and normal Dwarves. Much more potential in my eyes than OKs (I do have an OK army though - I'm not one of the bitter people that hated them from the beginning).

Plaguebeast


I really like the sound of this, GW really should think about getting the CD redone, and updated. Especially with them appearing in alot of fluff recently (SoC, OK). They get a thumbs up from me for a new army, hell i'd even go as far as to say i would definately collect, the potential for units is incredible (especially stuff like steam driven daemon bound golems!!!).

The boyz
28-04-2005, 12:12
Reading this makes me hope, that they will re-do the Chaos Dwarves.I dont see why they should'nt. I know quite a thew people who do like these corrupted and warped Dwarves.

Moi
29-04-2005, 16:58
Old Chaos Dwarves look crappy. Their new look with the Hellcannon makes me want to assemble an Archaon's Horde army just for them! I'd sure collect them if they were to remake CD with a dark and deamonic industrial tone. Make them use a lot of deadly machines, abuse arcane deamonic knowlege (mostly for building things, we already got deamonic magic users with Tzeentch) and kick slaves around and I'm in! Make them use risky stuff that will blow up on overuse to balance them out. Compense their lack of maneuverability with, say, machines, steam chariots or mutations (like bull centaurs) to avoid getting an evil dwarves army. Sadly, looks like I'll still have to wait before spending those shiny, hard-earned dollars of mine! I can't understand why GW doesn't want to remake this army... I think THAT's the big question... WHY??!?

Quetzl
01-05-2005, 20:52
I think that if they did away with the scilly hats, and darkened them up considerably, introduced more story and more Chaos Dwarfs. Getting rid of all the Hobgobs and Orcs, there would be quite a strange and entertaining army to play with. But thats my opinion, but it would be very cool if they did a Dwarf update and then released the Chaos Dwarfs... That would be a really nc campaign. But as usual thats my stupid idea. lol

Lady Bastet
02-05-2005, 13:42
Was thinking the other night and the Chaos Dwarfs seem very Lord of the Rings (the evil factions) orientated

Hell Cannon- The Bombs at Helms Deep and the Battering Ram at Minas Tirith?
Black Orcs- Uruk Hai?
Mordor Orcs- Hobgoblins?
Saruman- Astagoth?
The Balrog- Hashut Incarnate?

Time to use that creative licence and their will to plagurise everything?

Lockjaw
03-05-2005, 04:53
I'd like to see them keep the babylonian style of them though maybe shrink the hats a bit

EffCee
03-05-2005, 21:56
The thing that I hated about the old Chaos Dwarfs was the fact that their uniforms looked fresh from the dry cleaners. Just gimme a grimy industrial hell army.
Oh this is nothing, but the other day I was talking to a red shirt (yeah I know most people have stopped reading by now) and we were talking about the WE when he said "I just wish they would hurry up with the Chaos Dwarfs". Good sign or a red herring? I'll go for the latter, but I like to give the CD enthusiasts a little bit of hope. :D

Stouty
03-05-2005, 22:14
The babylonian/ancient greece feel was one that had much potential, somehow they just managed to pick out the wrong aspects from them. They should seem more like the "baddies" from the old testament, what with the brass idols and worshipping unmentioned of gods (Baal ect.).
BRING FORTH THE INDUSTRIAL GRIME!

Scactha
04-05-2005, 23:31
BRING FORTH THE INDUSTRIAL GRIME!
Amen.

Bring the posessed warengines out of Demons Stump. We want technomancy with shackled spirits, tortured elementals and obsidian golems. Ritualistic chants. Droning sorcerers. Fire and lava. Black iron armoured warriors. Whipped slave hordes. Tyranny, despotism and...insanity.

Just something wicked worthy of old big bad chaos.

HalberdBlue
05-05-2005, 00:13
I am inclined to think that the reason there are always people excited about Chaos Dwarfs getting an army book is more because in order to start a Chaos Dwarf army nowadays you either need to buy the old models second-hand or convert it. If you are buying the old models then you are most likely doing it online. If you are converting it, then you might look online for inspiration. Because of this I feel Chaos Dwarf players have a much higher % of people that participate in forums than other armies, which is why threads like this and the Hand of Hashut forums are relatively active. Most people I know that play Warhammer don't participate in online forums about Warhammer too much, maybe the occasional post on the official forums or don't even look at forums at all. But every Chaos Dwarf player I've met (including me) are active on forums and such.

So thats why I think that GW doesn't see Chaos Dwarf topics and forums being active as a sign there is a lot of interest in the army.

EffCee
06-05-2005, 01:47
[QUOTE=Scactha]
Bring the posessed warengines out of Demons Stump. We want technomancy with shackled spirits, tortured elementals and obsidian golems. Ritualistic chants. Droning sorcerers. Fire and lava. Black iron armoured warriors. Whipped slave hordes. Tyranny, despotism and...insanity.
QUOTE]

I am so there! :)

Alric
01-06-2005, 05:03
I wonder if GW has left Chaos Dwarfs forever? Is the Ravening Horde list the last list there will be or are there any future plans for exaample a WD list? What are the arguments from GW (wild guess: not selling)? Not a big fan of CD, still think it's sad when races dissappear... (ok, the handlers of the hellcannon)



Originally Posted by Gave Thorpe
As I explained this in the last couple of event seminars, it's only fair I explain this here.

1. The other WD lists were 'work in progress', designed to bridge the gap between Ravening Hordes and the army book, because we knew there would be quite a wait. There has been little work in progress on the Chaos Dwarfs and so there is nothing to draw on for an update list.

2. When we redo Chaos Dwarfs, it will be as a full army, much expanded on the previous WD list. For this reason, it will work off a Chaos Dwarf theme much more, rather than relying on a swathe of the Orcs and Goblins miniatures range. At the present time there are no miniatures to represent these possible additions, or even ones suitable for conversion, and so any update list would not include these and essentially be a rehash of Ravening Hordes therefore pointless.

3. Most importantly, I think it is more unfair to promote an army and a miniatures range that is, in most respects, defunct. I have always said that it would be an act of gross bad customer service for us to do anything which would encourage the opinion that Chaos Dwarfs will return anytime soon. When they return, they will return, but I'm not going to toss the dog a bone just to look nice when in fact, it would be a pointless gesture.

GAV"

I guess this might answer your question, kinda wait and see just dont hold your breath,