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Megad00mer
07-12-2007, 15:47
Maybe I'm just bitter because I have yet to win (let alone do well) against my friends Witch Hunters army but it seems to me that the army is a tad overpowered in it's current state. I play Tyranids and he uses an all Sisters force and no matter what I throw at him or any situation he finds himself in, it seems that the faith abilities allow him to just counter it.

Large creature coming at him? He effectively makes his bolters rending.

If the large creature survives long enough to charge, he makes his save invulnerable.

Large swarm of Hormagaunts attack him? He increases his init, or makes his sisters strength 5 or both since he can use as many faith abilities per unit as he likes, in EITHER player turn. The rolls to successfully use these abilites are ridiculously easy to make and imagnifiers pretty much make it a definite.

And the real kicker it that even if I kill a unit of his, he gets the faith point back once they're dead, unless the unit was running at the time, but he has a faith ability to instantly rally a unit as well. :mad: So effectively his army gets harder and harder to win against, the smaller and smaller it gets.

Couple this with a BS of 4, power armor and vehicles that can annihilate an MC in one turn (Exorcist) or destroy a swarm unit without batting an eyelash (Immolater) and it seems I just have no prayer.

Whatever tactic, unit or strategy I can think up, he will always have a counter via faith.

Am I just being bitter and pessimistic or have other people (mainly horde army players) found this to be the case as well?

zeep
07-12-2007, 16:00
:DI find that the faith rules are only really overpowered when certain players (usually the sisters ) dont really understand them.

Most of them are very specific on when to use them. In other words, he cant wait till your in the middle of the assault phase and suddenly give his guys Invulnerable saves, he had to announce that at the beginning of the phase.

Counter the Init by using cover or consider catalyst/bone sword, If hes wasting a faith point on a fight with gaunts you've already won :D

He doesn't make his bolter's rending... he gives them ap1. The difference is rending is on the to-hit roll, bypassing wound and save roll while AP1 is off the wound roll (where a six would have wounded anyway) and merly bypasses the armor save. Again, use cover and you still get a save. (note that this power is rolled after the hits, but before the wounds)


Sisters is a tough fight for nids, but winnable

Lord_Squinty
07-12-2007, 16:00
Large swarm of Hormagaunts attack him? He increases his init, or makes his sisters strength 5 or both since he can use as many faith abilities per unit as he likes, in EITHER player turn. The rolls to successfully use these abilites are ridiculously easy to make and imagnifiers pretty much make it a definite.


He cant use both those powers on the same unit in the same turn.

Ive never faced 'nids with my WH, but with the holy trinity (bolters,flamers,meltas) I can see how theyd be at an advantage.

Get a hold of the codex and make sure you understand how the faith points work, anticipate what hes going to use where and when.
EG - the +2 strength faith point means he strikes at I1.
He also only has a limited number, try to force them to be used unwisely.

You also never mentioned how much terrain you use. As most players dont use the 25% cover on a table, this would put you at a disadvantage.
Use 25% cover, keep warriors / other long range shooters out of LOS of the excorcists - then pop out and blast them - MC problem solved.

But, as I said, I have no experience of nids vs Wh - but theres my 2cents..

Edit
Looks like Zeep beat me to it -
Main thing - learn how faith works...
Got 2 viable charges? - charge the one he hasnt used faith on... ( or let him waste faith on both)

But overpowered? - far from it.

Captain Micha
07-12-2007, 16:02
See if he will let you borrow his codex. I keep thinking sob have a limit to their faith points. (like a really small one.. thats what makes them strategic and balanced) I'm not a sob player nor have I played by one. just friendly advice from what I've heard on the internet.

However, when in doubt read the other guy's codex. If he objects, chances are he's doing something dodgy.

Also 25% terrain or better.. 25 % is the MINIMUM -required- for 40k. Alot of cheese in armies suddenly becomes pointless when you actually play by that very -important- rule.

Sister_Sin
07-12-2007, 16:11
From the other side of the coin, I run a pure Sisters army and Tyranids are the most difficult opponents I face. I haven't beaten them yet, despite having lots of a Faith points. Dice aren't my friend as a rule, especially the special Taken dice I use, so that probably doesn't help any.

I don't think we're overpowered really. Your opponent apparently rolls well and knows how to configure the units and use them just right. The rolling well is a necessity since you have to succeed on a roll of 2d6 to use Acts of Faith successfully anyway. Each *attempt* to use an Act of Faith costs a point...regardless of whether it succeeds or not. I'm often amazed at how fast the tally of Faith Points dwindles. O-o You only get Faith Points from certain units and characters. Canoness, Palatine, Celestians, Veteran Sister Superiors, and Seraphim grant Faith Points.

Depending on the Act, the roll must be either over of under the size of the unit using it. If he has large units, rolling under is pretty easy but rolling over the number is tough. If he has small ones, the opposite is true. Imagifers carrying the Simulacrum Imperialis allow rolling three dice and choosing which two to use on a test, but only *once* per unit that has them each player turn. I don't use many of those myself, preferring to use the points elsewhere.

I've lost a bit more than I've won with my gals on the whole. Don't mind though, it's all good. :)

Sister Sin

Megad00mer
07-12-2007, 16:18
He cant use both those powers on the same unit in the same turn.


I have the codex (I have all of them in fact cuz I'm a lore whore) and I read the faith rules over and over. Mostly when I'm on the bowl, crying over my most recent spanking by the sororitas. I can't find anything in the faith rules that mentions a limit on how many powers can be used on a unit per turn, only that the same faith ability can only be used (or attempted to use) by a unit once per turn.

Am I missing something? Sister Sin? Help? ;)

electricblooz
07-12-2007, 16:37
I have the codex (I have all of them in fact cuz I'm a lore whore) and I read the faith rules over and over. Mostly when I'm on the bowl, crying over my most recent spanking by the sororitas. I can't find anything in the faith rules that mentions a limit on how many powers can be used on a unit per turn, only that the same faith ability can only be used (or attempted to use) by a unit once per turn.

Am I missing something? Sister Sin? Help? ;)

It specifically says in the rules for the Passion (I boost) and Hand of the Emperor (S boost) that these two powers may not be combined. Page 18 under the Passion in the box.

Quick question, is your opponent running 3x Exorcists or a more balanced army?

FireN.Brimstone
07-12-2007, 16:39
I have the codex (I have all of them in fact cuz I'm a lore whore) and I read the faith rules over and over. Mostly when I'm on the bowl, crying over my most recent spanking by the sororitas. I can't find anything in the faith rules that mentions a limit on how many powers can be used on a unit per turn, only that the same faith ability can only be used (or attempted to use) by a unit once per turn.

Am I missing something? Sister Sin? Help? ;)

Perhaps not in the about faith power, but certainly the core rules. The problem is that while he CAN use both the I and S increasing faith powers in the same turn, he will still only stike at I 1 because the order of operations for such calculation is as follows:

Multiplication/Division then Adition/Subtraction then "Set-as"

Thus even if he increases his I, then set to I 1 will still kick in last and set his I to 1.

Megad00mer
07-12-2007, 16:50
Ah whoops! You guys are right. The Str and Init cannot be used together. Bad example.

Every other combo seems to be 100% kosher though. So for example Str5 + Inv saves is a nice little on demand counter for say a Hive Tyrant or Fex that manages to make it into CC.

Sister_Sin
07-12-2007, 16:51
Well...no, in fact. There isn't any particular limit to how many *different* powers can be used by a unit in a given turn except that they can't try to use the same one twice.

However...each Act has a certain point in a turn where it can be used...beginning of the Assault Phase, beginning of the Shooting Phase, and so on.Divine Guidance happens after hitting but before wounds are worked on on a unit. Hand of the Emperor before rolling to hit, Light of the Emperor in one's own movement phase and so on.

So combinations of different Acts can be used, at the appropriate time by any given unit, expending one point per *attempt*. That's important...the attempt costs a point for each try...regardless of success or failure of the roll.

By my experience Faith Points drop precipitously against Tyranids...and while you get the original Faith Point back once for each Faithful model or unit killed, it's controlled to some degree by the requirements of rolling over or under the unit size and exactly when in the turn each Act is useful.

I'm assuming you mob hell out of his troops...within synapse range the gits won't flee...Genestealers behind gaunts too? Some of your lot should have charge ranges well beyond rapid fire range of the Sisters. If he's using a 20 Sister unit that's a world of hurt in the shooting phase. I'd have to see his list really. Each Sister gets only one attack in CC, unless they are Seraphim or characters, so to my mind, avoid the shooting and get stuck in. You still have to deal with Divine Guidance in CC, but it won't be nearly as effective as shooting since you'd go from 40 S4 shots to 20 S3 CC attacks in a 20 Sister unit. Only characters, Celestians, and Seraphim have WS4. Regular Sisters are WS 3.

I hope you get a handle on him; a bit of equity in the fighting makes things a lot more fun and interesting.

Terrain helps you, not him. Lictors *really* help you, not him ( I HATE lictors!), I'd make sure you have at least the recommended 25% terrain cover for the board. Sisters are made to tie up units in CC...they die slowly due to the Spirit of the Martyr, which gets harder for you as you kill them since the roll to succeed is over the number in the unit.

Sisters really are an attrition army. You should outnumber them and use that, and the terrain to advantage. Use terrain to block the Exorcists line of site, or have lictors and ravener go after them. I don't know what your army is like either, but this works for my opponent, usually despite my best efforts to counter it.

Sister Sin

Grazzy
07-12-2007, 17:46
Inquisition are generally seen as the weaker armies, although IMO pure mech sisters are the best =I= army. Just get your HT's into combat and use your long ranged carnies to take out exorcists.

The Orange
07-12-2007, 18:26
I've seen SoB armies go both way (from the same player). Usually they can just take hit after hit and do some amazing things (taking down a wrathlord in hth), on the other hand I've wiped the floor with them in 3 turns. Faith points though are pretty damn annoying, you just got to figure out what's going to push him to use faith points and try to make him waste them. Maybe some zonethrops causing LD modifiers? So he'll waste FP making them fearless? A shootyfex might be a good idea, exorcists usually go down pretty easy. In my group we don't let them live to get off more then one volley :p.

kore
07-12-2007, 18:41
However...each Act has a certain point in a turn where it can be used...beginning of the Assault Phase, beginning of the Shooting Phase, and so on.Divine Guidance happens after hitting but before wounds are worked on on a unit. Hand of the Emperor before rolling to hit, Light of the Emperor in one's own movement phase and so on.


This is the most important thing to consider and is the reason why you should ask to read or glance over the codex.

Regardless, The Passion expressly a combination with Hand of the Emperor in the same phase and is self-nullified because of the effect on Initiative from HotE.

Moonraker
07-12-2007, 19:48
Where in the WH dex does it say that the Faith Points have to be used at the beginning of the phase? I have read and re-read for that specification. All I see is either player's assault, own movement phase, etc..

Ordo Ouroboros
07-12-2007, 20:11
I dunno. It's easier to field fearless units with Chaos now. All that faith goes out the window when you're face to face with a band of Sorcery hating Khorne Beserkers and an Aspiring Champion

Sister_Sin
07-12-2007, 20:11
In the descriptions of the Acts themselves. Not all of them have to be used at the beginning of the phase, but they all specify a point within the appropriate phase where they can be used.

For Hand of the Emperor, as an example, it works in either player's Assault Phase...but under effects it says make the test before rolling to hit. Seems to place it pretty well overall.

Light of the Emperor specifies beginning of the phase. As does Spirit of the Martyr.

So they tell you when you can use them, to all intents and purposes.

Sister Sin

Moonraker
07-12-2007, 20:26
Thanks Sister_Sin. I have to admit I am a bit of a turkey. I read everything on that page except for the Effect entries. Not one of my finest moments.

Tadite
07-12-2007, 20:29
It is official. Every single post that can possibly be done has been done.

I figured someone calling the SoB overpowered would be the last... Simply shocking.

Sounds like you are just playing against someone who is better then you. Book as nothing to do with it as the Witch-Hunters are a lessor book in nearly every way.

Sister_Sin
07-12-2007, 20:31
LOL No worries. We all do it. When the Codex first came out I missed the fact that the Blessed Weapon was in the two-handed category...despite having it right in front of me.

:)

Sister Sin

Stonerkid655321
07-12-2007, 20:32
Well.

He could just be a better player.

You are not useing enough terrain.

Your army could not be that good.

Someone is getting the rules wrong.

Sisters are not overpowerd.

MuttMan
07-12-2007, 20:38
I play a sisters army. Their main weakness is simple. Numbers. They dont have any large critters so toughness 4 is perhaps the most you have to deal with. They can pack a whallop of str6 anti-armor weapons, lots of bits and gribblies that can take out big stuff. However their main anti-troop is limited to within a 1 turn charge range of hormagaunts/raveners/gargoyles. If you can manage to get the perfect charge (example, wait to get him within 24" then move like mad) he wont see whats comming until its too late. Doesnt matter if their save is invulnerable, if they have +2 initiative (with one attack each, and few special characters) or if they have allies like imperial guard, daemon hunters and what not. Its their weakness, and exploit it.

3+ saves against 30 wounds means 10 die, and 30 wounds comes from 60 hormagaunts charging. 60 attacks, 40 hits, 20 wounds, then they will flee, and you over-run them, or keep them tied until next phase and spit 30 attacks, 20 hits, 10 wounds and they are finished.

Just make sure you have some Warb Blasts that can hit at str10 for his rhinos/immolators. Usually the gaunts between you and them can stop most of their blows, and of course, those ap1 missiles can be a pain, but if you can manage to kill 3 rhinos and keep the momentum going, its already too late.

Lots of hormagaunts/spinegaunts/raveners+5 warp blasts if you can manage it, with some warriors for synapse and of course, ignoring instant death.

The_Patriot
07-12-2007, 20:40
Well this is news to me that my Sisters army is overpowered...:eek: The biggest things when playing in determining battles are:


Player Skill
Size of the Table
Amount of Terrain
Army Composition


An open field that's barely larger then the size of a football field is boring and can lead to lopsided battles if you're army isn't designed for the terrain you're playing on. Terrain and table size are the great equalizers since it decreases visibility between the opposing units and introduces maneuver elements to combat. If you play a game according to the rule book on table size and terrain leads to static battles that are very uninteresting.

electricblooz
07-12-2007, 21:12
LOL No worries. We all do it. When the Codex first came out I missed the fact that the Blessed Weapon was in the two-handed category...despite having it right in front of me.

:)

Sister Sin

And I missed the fact that the Blessed Weapon was already master crafted...:cries:

Lord_Squinty
07-12-2007, 21:20
And I missed the fact that the Blessed Weapon was already master crafted...:cries:

LOL - I did that one!
I was calling army builder all sorts because it wouldnt let me master craft it!
:D

Megad00mer
07-12-2007, 21:21
Whoa there. A couple of people in this thread seem to be getting a tad angry and insulting. Notice the "question mark" in the thread topic, people. I'm just asking for some people's advice and opinions vs. my friend's WH's. I'm not saying the army needs a nerf, insulting anyone's skill as a player (as a couple of people insulted mine in this thread) or anything else like that. Just trying to get some feedback and have a discussion here.

No reason to get all mean and ornery. :rolleyes:

For those who did post constructively (<3 Sister Sin), thank you for the advice. I think it will help a lot in our future games.

Malorian
07-12-2007, 21:30
I think sisters is a very good list. Anything that comes within that 24 inches of death is in for some trouble. And since nids have to go there is is pretty hard for them.

Sisters lack in the long range department though. Try standing back a couple of turns and just let him had it. They are only toughness 3 and they will have to take a lot of saves when you drop those nid pie plates on them. Even 3+ fails after a while.

Then hit him with your zones. Bolters have a hard time against 2+ saves, and he can't give everyone inv saves.

Once he's closer then go for it. At this point they should be a bit more softened up and maybe you even got a squad to run.

Ravenous
07-12-2007, 21:34
I think its just the fact that sisters is one of the best counters to Nids, hell even nidzilla has a rough time against them.

Like the OP said, Bs4 bolters, flamers, meltaguns, and power armour combined with the ability to "psedu rend" makes it a pretty up hill battle for nids.

Witchhunters are one of the few armies that can do great in both offensive and defensive roles. Against bugs thats pretty much perfect.

Eulenspiegel
07-12-2007, 21:50
Okay, so the thread title was a little dramatic, but here is a player asking how to beat a certain opponent and he gets what?
Comments on his skill as a player? HELL, hes posting here because he wants to improve it!

Sister_Sin
07-12-2007, 22:01
For those who did post constructively (<3 Sister Sin), thank you for the advice. I think it will help a lot in our future games.

Welcome. Here's hoping I'll be able to beat my Tyranid opponent at some point. LOL :)

Sister Sin

Ouroboros
07-12-2007, 22:28
I'd say this basically just comes down to the fact that he's a good sisters player and you unfortunately have to face him with nids. If he knows he's going to play nids a lot he's probably given quite a bit of thought to how to beat them and he's got the perfect tool for the job.

A sisters army built to kill nids will probably kill them more effectively than any other army built to do so. Nids don't have armoured vehicles which means the whole army is vulnerable to guided bolters which in turn means that even units he's tooled up to incinerate swarms of gaunts can still also be used to kill your big guys.

Then there's the exorcist, which you already mentioned; probably the single best way to kill a Tyranid monsterous creature. Take 3 of them and those carni's and hive tyrants are all expensive walking corpses.

I'm not even sure what to tell you to do really. You could stay away from the big expensise guys that are exorcist bait but then you'll become more vulnerable on the whole to massed flamers and bolter RF. Going nidzilla would be even worse, he'll just exorcist you to death in 3 turns and then use guidence and meltaguns to finish off anything still standing.

I'd say your best bet is to compromise with a mixed list and just keep trying to outplay him. Try to think from his side of the table and imagine what you would do. Did you accidently leave those gaunts in range of a rhino debark/flaming, can the exorcist move over 6" next turn and blow your carnifex in half if you move him out of cover there.

I'm afraid there's really no easy "just add more of this to your list" type answer to solve this difficulty for you.

vogelfrei
07-12-2007, 23:34
Okay, so the thread title was a little dramatic, but here is a player asking how to beat a certain opponent and he gets what?
Comments on his skill as a player? HELL, hes posting here because he wants to improve it!

WH is one of the armies generally at the bottom of the food chain.
Tyranids is more middle-to-top...
But with WH being THE counter to Tyranids (I heard someone say Exorzists are cheese in here...did he notice that's the only thing with more than 24" and S above 5 we can take other than an overpriced plasma cannon as retinue?) I see how Megad00mer thinks they would actually be overpowered...and puts that into the thread title, wich might make some people angry, since it is very provocative and the we all know the Inquisition needs some things redone (Demonunterrules anyone? Lord Inquisitors being the worst HQ out of all forces?) without anything in shedule.

warchild9
07-12-2007, 23:56
I have played SOBs twice against nids both were losses....First game I was out shot and only killed one genestealer......NIDS THAT SHOT.....that sucked! Next time I played him I was so focused on killing the swarms and genestealers that i left a side open ope for his carni that destroyed my army....He said I was the only one to kill his Broodlord that day out of five games. But as Sister player to beat them go in to close combat or even big guns, 3+ invul will fail sometime. I field 1k sons.....I can barely kill them

Sister_Sin
08-12-2007, 00:22
I haven't won against them yet, but Immolators with Heavy Bolters firing Blessed Ammunition and Retributor Squads featuring Heavy Bolters do some damage. The Exorcists of course are big bug killers but vulnerable in their turn.

I've come close a time or two by using a sort of overlapping fire defense in depth...but so far haven't managed to actually win. All sorts of variations. I keep trying though. :)

Sister Sin

Askari
08-12-2007, 00:59
I don't play Sisters, I play Thousand Sons, but since they share a lot of qualities, I thought I'd input.

Sure,
they're in Power Armour,
they can have an Invulnerable Save
they can occasionally ignore your armour

But they are not,
particularly mobile
as numerous
as hard-hitting
as Tyranids are

Simply put, get a Flyrant, make him cheap if you think he'll attract too much fire though
Then gaunts.
Lots of them.
And Genestealers in there too.
You can charge further than his Flamers can torch
Things like Hormagaunts and Raveners can charge as far as his Bolters can shoot!
Take the fight to them, and overwhelm them with numbers.

Try Raveners especially, in 1 man units with Rending Claws & Scything Talons, and Deep Strike them. If he wants to kill them, he'll have to waste a whole unit's shooting at a single model [and Sisters units tend to be larger due to Faith effects]
If he ignores them, then it charges them next turn, and holds them there for a while, probably dragging a few down with itself.

Godgolden
08-12-2007, 01:45
yeah, i ran blessed as 1h for a while.. totally slapped me one... but yeah Nids are the single worst army to use against sisters, sister weakness? tanks... but yeah... good luck :)

p.s theres alot of info about sisters floating about such as the tactica.. have a look.

edit: Sisters can be quite numerous..... and this doesnt impact there power vs nids.. not at all.

tarrin
08-12-2007, 02:17
WH are the least popular army, at least tourney wise. I was looking at the UKGT stats for past two years and out of ~450 players you get only ~10 WH lists.
Not that many for an overpowered list. I have two WH lists (Inq based and SoB based) and i find them good in the hands of someone who knows what they are doing, and terrible in the hands of an amateur who runs them in the same way as marines.


Nids are one of the hardest armies to fight with them i can account for that. I have found that scenario choice makes big difference and army selection is all important.

Try playing him at different scenarios, Take and hold, recon rather than cleanse or seek and destroy.

Megad00mer
08-12-2007, 03:26
I'm definitely gonna try some things that were suggested. I was hesitant to take Lictors before because of the flamers each of his squads had (bye bye cover save and 80pts) but hopefully I'll get lucky with the deep strike and be able to charge him on the turn they appear. At the very least it's a big scary distraction that at least one unit HAS to deal with.

I also think I'm going to forgo a unit of Genestealers for another big, fast unit of Hormagaunts. I got some other evil spikey ideas forming in my brain as well.

And again, for the record. The title of this thread wasn't meant to seem like a "waaaah waaaah, nerf those smelly sisters cuz I suck at them there taktiks" kind of post. Just seeking a bit of advice and opinions. I thought the question mark in the title would convey that. Guess not. ;)

Sister_Sin
08-12-2007, 05:31
Good luck! :)

Sister Sin

BrainFireBob
08-12-2007, 05:36
Well- Sisters kitted out for a particular foe can be pretty damn hard, IMO.

I second making him bleed Faith till he's out.

I also second good luck.

Vaktathi
08-12-2007, 05:48
It is official. Every single post that can possibly be done has been done.

I figured someone calling the SoB overpowered would be the last... Simply shocking.

Sounds like you are just playing against someone who is better then you. Book as nothing to do with it as the Witch-Hunters are a lessor book in nearly every way.

:rolleyes: that was a great contribution and really helped discussion in this thread.




anyway, back to the original topic. Against certain armies WH can be very nasty, but once you take out the exorcists and get their units locked into CC its generally over. My IG is performs very poorly against mechanized WH, but my Chaos has won every time. The trick is to either stay at range, or once you get close, get into CC, dont give your opponent any time in the 12" sweet spot zone. Faith abilities don't always go off, and against a dedicated CC unit like Genestealers (or even non-dedicated CC units like Chaos marines) should only prolong the inevitable rather than swing the tide in their favor.

Basically, if you are playing nids, just keep them locked as long as possible, use the terrain to your advantage (make sure you have the 25% on there) and pound them from range with your heavy shooty 'fex's. The exorcists will probably be the toughest part for a Nid army to deal with, but just try to keep them from shooting and you should be fine.

big squig
08-12-2007, 06:02
The only problem I have with them is their points cost. 11 points for a sister is a freaking steal. Why even bother with stromtroopers if spending 1 point more gets you an infinitely better model. Who really does not play all sisters when running witch hunters?

The_Patriot
08-12-2007, 06:12
The only problem I have with them is their points cost. 11 points for a sister is a freaking steal. Why even bother with stromtroopers if spending 1 point more gets you an infinitely better model. Who really does not play all sisters when running witch hunters?

I use an Inquisitor Lord and retinue, so I can use the assassins. I swap out between a Callidus and a Vindicare plus run 6 Death Cultists.

Admiral Samuel Eden
08-12-2007, 06:18
You shouldn't have too much of a problem, jump him with 24 inch charges on turn 2 and then let your army advance. I've never had a problem with the sisters. Genestalers kill them quick. Also, against nids, the +2 Strength thing is no good.

stonehorse
09-12-2007, 02:10
The only problem I have with them is their points cost. 11 points for a sister is a freaking steal. Why even bother with stromtroopers if spending 1 point more gets you an infinitely better model. Who really does not play all sisters when running witch hunters?

QFT.

Also add in the annoying ability to make their armour saves invulnerable, and those 11 points seem like nothing.

I just can't see how they can wear Power Armour and carry Bolters. If I remember correctly they (Sisters of Battle) haven't had any genetic enhancement like Space Marines have, so lack the Black Carapace that is required to be able to use Power armour. Again if I recall correctly this is why Space Marine Scouts don't wear power armour as the Black Carapace is the last enhancement a Marine recieves. Also I thought Bolter were either a)very rare and/or b) too powerful for an ordinary human to carry around.

If their armour was lowered to say Carapace (4+), I think it would be better.

I lost my first game against them as I had no idea about the Faith system. Second game I wiped them all out by the end of my Turn 5. Guess I'm a quick learner.

Just my thoughts on the mater.

Sister_Sin
09-12-2007, 03:08
Sisters are not overpowered. The invulnerable save they can get through use of Faith Points isn't that big a deal. They don't always make the attempt, and eventually they run out of faith points.

I don't follow the power armor bit; there isn't any reason for them not to have it. Marines are not the only ones who can use it; they are just the only ones who can use it to its full potential since they have the Black Carapace. Inquisitors use it and they don't have the Black Carapace...and some Inquisitors are female to boot.

Bolters are simply weapons...guns. Granted, not everyone in the Imperial forces gets them, but IG characters can take them, Inquisitors, heck, even the gangers in Necromunda have them. No reason Sisters shouldn't.

I like the Sisters as they are now...beats the configuration from 2e in my own opinion. WS 4 and BS 4 for the variant units is only sensible. Power armor they have always had, bolters too. I have *always* wanted to play pure Sisters, from the first. This Codex lets me do that, thank goodness.

As far as points cost...we only have S & T of 3...we need the numbers, even with the power armor...so 11 points is not unreasonable.

Defeating them all but once should rather prove they do need the 3+ save, considering they are only Strength and Toughness 3. The army is surprisingly well sorted out for the most part. It just happens to be really good against Tyranids under certain circumstances.

I have an Inquisitrix and retinue..I just haven't ever used them as of yet. Might in Apoc...but I enjoy my Sisters army so much I simply haven't bothered thus far.

Sister Sin

stonehorse
09-12-2007, 03:39
Sisters are not overpowered. The invulnerable save they can get through use of Faith Points isn't that big a deal. They don't always make the attempt, and eventually they run out of faith points.

I'm not saying they are over powered, but rather they have a system unique to them, that used correctly can be a game winner/breaker. This part lies in both the army build, and the ability of the person using them.


I don't follow the power armor bit; there isn't any reason for them not to have it. Marines are not the only ones who can use it; they are just the only ones who can use it to its full potential since they have the Black Carapace. Inquisitors use it and they don't have the Black Carapace...and some Inquisitors are female to boot.

Power armour is meant to be very heavy, so heavy that a human without any form of genetic enhancement couldn't wear it and have no negative effect. Looking at SoB their armour doesn't look like it could pass as any form as Power armour (Yes I understand the look the designers went for), also if any human can wear it with out needing any genetic enhancements, and given the sheer scale of industry the Imperium has... why aren't all their soilders wearing it?
Agents of the Inquisitors could and more than likely have gone through some form of enhancement, and also have the Psychic powers to help them.
Correct Marines aren't the only ones who wear it... which translates to 40K being dominated by 3+ save armies... Dull. From a background, gameplay, and model sense, it should be carapace not Power Armour.


Bolters are simply weapons...guns. Granted, not everyone in the Imperial forces gets them, but IG characters can take them, Inquisitors, heck, even the gangers in Necromunda have them. No reason Sisters shouldn't.

I'm sure I remember reading somewhere that Boltguns produce too much recoil for a basic human to use. Again from a gaming point it makes them look too much like Marines. Also in Necromunda people could run, an art which seems to be lost of the armies of the 40K universe ;) Necromunda is a game with different rules, heck I remember in the older version (I can't recall its name) you could find Terminator armour.


I like the Sisters as they are now...beats the configuration from 2e in my own opinion. WS 4 and BS 4 for the variant units is only sensible. Power armor they have always had, bolters too. I have *always* wanted to play pure Sisters, from the first. This Codex lets me do that, thank goodness.

As far as points cost...we only have S & T of 3...we need the numbers, even with the power armor...so 11 points is not unreasonable.

In its self it isn't, but when you counter in the abilities they can get through Faith Points it stats to look a bit cheap from the other side of the gaming table. Toughness 3 they may be... but they are just Humans. But their strength can be boosted by Faith Points.


Defeating them all but once should rather prove they do need the 3+ save, considering they are only Strength and Toughness 3. The army is surprisingly well sorted out for the most part. It just happens to be really good against Tyranids under certain circumstances.

Not really, a lot of it does depend on who they are fighting against (just like all armies). Toughness 3 and a potential 3+ save that is invulnerable, it may not seem like much, but it can really steal the sting from some armies.


I have an Inquisitrix and retinue..I just haven't ever used them as of yet. Might in Apoc...but I enjoy my Sisters army so much I simply haven't bothered thus far.

Sister Sin

Glad you play a pure army, they look so much better than mixed forces, I'm not against the SoB, nor do I feel they are over powered. Far from it in fact, what I would like to see is a change that makes them more different to space Marines. As they are now I just see them as Marines with less Strength & Toughness, but with a unique system to counter these.

Sister_Sin
09-12-2007, 13:29
Far from it in fact, what I would like to see is a change that makes them more different to space Marines. As they are now I just see them as Marines with less Strength & Toughness, but with a unique system to counter these.

Ah, I see. Well, we'll have to agree to disagree on this one as I don't see them as all that similar to Marines really. Of course, I could very well be a minority on this, which would not be a surprise! LOL

Sisters, power armor, and bolters go back to Rogue Trader...even if it was only a bit with a picture of Sister Sin (O-o) acing Brother Vermillion of the Rainbow Warriors (RIP). :)

Interestingly, back then I got told to leave Marines alone as they weren't for girls, or refused play, or what have you. Later, I got told to play Sisters since they were for girls. Pansy Marines, I recall one fellow telling me, so there are a lot of people who think they are watered down Marines I guess.

*shrugs* To each their own; I don't really mind to be honest. I like playing an army that is made up entirely of women, I like the fact that they can be tough and believe...and that belief makes them stronger...if only for a little while. I don't think the Acts truly change them from their weaker stats as the Acts eventually run out, don't always work, and so can be considered sporadic to a degree; bursts of faith-induced strength. Rather like normal humans stressed out on Adrenaline. Like a mother rolling a car over to get at her trapped child. Not so far-fetched to me.

*grins* I respect your opinion however. Thanks for the discussion! Fight hard, die well.

Sister Sin

the nightbringer
09-12-2007, 14:16
Overpowering? one word...Necrons. Watching a 18point necron warrior make a 300point land raider Blow up and the look on the other guy face. Priceless.

But Sisters of Battle. They can be quite hard or easy depending on how your playing. Same with all armys but some really take the mick.

Shrike30
09-12-2007, 14:23
The only problem I have with them is their points cost. 11 points for a sister is a freaking steal. Why even bother with stromtroopers if spending 1 point more gets you an infinitely better model. Who really does not play all sisters when running witch hunters?

We saw orks go from 9 points to 6. I think we'll be seeing a points adjustment on ST's (and Guardsmen, for that matter), as well. Sisters, I believe, will stay about where they are now.

manstein1973
09-12-2007, 15:35
I never liked playing against the Sisters with my nid's.

I've had a hive tyrant with a tyrant gaurd wiped out in one volley of missiles from that Exorcist, and entire broods of gaunts/genestealers mowed down by 4-Heavy Bolter strong Retributor squads.

I play normally a MC heavy list, and my friend would zip his seraphims around the table and vaporize carnifexes with those twin-linked inferno pistols. Charge the girls and he gives them invulnerable saves, including the damn Canoness in the squad with a 2+ invulnerable.


When he would roll for his faith points, he would make it and call it a "Clutch Roll". My buddies and I called them "Crutch Rolls", since he needed them to bail him out of bad situations.

Thankfully he doesn't play them anymore, and has since switched to Dark Angels. Now I get to enjoy fun things like rending Assault Cannons.

Champsguy
09-12-2007, 16:01
Power armour is meant to be very heavy, so heavy that a human without any form of genetic enhancement couldn't wear it and have no negative effect.

It's powered armor. You don't lift it with your muscles. It has its own muscles built in so that it lifts itself.


I'm sure I remember reading somewhere that Boltguns produce too much recoil for a basic human to use.

Where?

--

Sisters are not overpowered. Try these things and see how you do.

1) Park your Carnifex in cover. This way you'll still get a save against the Exorcist. Shoot your Venom Cannon at the Exorcist. You should be able to destroy it before it kills you.

2) Use a Flying Hive Tyrant with 2 TL Devourers. Maneuver him so that he's only got sight to one unit. Shoot. You'll kill lots of Sisters by forcing them to fail saves. It doesn't matter if they make their saves invulnerable, because your shooting attacks don't ignore their armor anyway. Take Carnies with 2 TL Devourers as well.

3) Take small units of Genestealers WITH Extended Carapace. Yes, he can kill them by using that AP 1 bolter thing, but then you've made him use a Faith Point. If you take Stealers without EC, then he doesn't have to bother with using the Faith Point. If the Stealers get into HTH, then he's going to need another Faith Point to stop Rendings.

Templar Ben
09-12-2007, 17:27
I'm not saying they are over powered, but rather they have a system unique to them, that used correctly can be a game winner/breaker. This part lies in both the army build, and the ability of the person using them.

Are you suggesting that armies not have unique rules to them? Only Orks can mob up. Only Necrons have gauss. Only Marines have ATSKNF. Only sisters have faith.


Power armour is meant to be very heavy, so heavy that a human without any form of genetic enhancement couldn't wear it and have no negative effect. Looking at SoB their armour doesn't look like it could pass as any form as Power armour (Yes I understand the look the designers went for), also if any human can wear it with out needing any genetic enhancements, and given the sheer scale of industry the Imperium has... why aren't all their soilders wearing it?

The same reason that not all US Soldiers are given the equipment that Special Operations get. When I was SOCOM we had .40 S&W and everyone else had 9mm. We had M-4s when everyone else had M-16s (although there is a lot of shared equipment there) but ours also had things like ACOGs. The big thing you are forgetting is the logistical tail that the IG needs to support it. Having Power Armor which is a maintenance hog (look at how much time Marines spend working on it during those prayers and oiling rituals) and using a weapon that requires ammo does not make sense for an army like the IG.


Agents of the Inquisitors could and more than likely have gone through some form of enhancement, and also have the Psychic powers to help them.
Correct Marines aren't the only ones who wear it... which translates to 40K being dominated by 3+ save armies... Dull. From a background, gameplay, and model sense, it should be carapace not Power Armour.

Faith could be viewed as a psychic power and so that just gives more reason why WH should have Power Armor.

The domination of 3+ saves isn't because WH can get it but because SM are the bread and butter of GW.


I'm sure I remember reading somewhere that Boltguns produce too much recoil for a basic human to use. Again from a gaming point it makes them look too much like Marines. Also in Necromunda people could run, an art which seems to be lost of the armies of the 40K universe ;) Necromunda is a game with different rules, heck I remember in the older version (I can't recall its name) you could find Terminator armour.

Finding Terminator armor (without weapons) wouldn't bother me since Terminator armor is really just the repair suit for people that work on plasma reactors. That would be like someone finding a #4 bulldozer today.


In its self it isn't, but when you counter in the abilities they can get through Faith Points it stats to look a bit cheap from the other side of the gaming table. Toughness 3 they may be... but they are just Humans. But their strength can be boosted by Faith Points.

I am sure getting beat makes any army look cheep.


Not really, a lot of it does depend on who they are fighting against (just like all armies). Toughness 3 and a potential 3+ save that is invulnerable, it may not seem like much, but it can really steal the sting from some armies.

I agree that many games of 40k turn into paper covers rock and rock breaks scissors.


Glad you play a pure army, they look so much better than mixed forces, I'm not against the SoB, nor do I feel they are over powered. Far from it in fact, what I would like to see is a change that makes them more different to space Marines. As they are now I just see them as Marines with less Strength & Toughness, but with a unique system to counter these.

Just like Marines have a unique system to make drop pods not as dangerous when deep striking. Using the abilities of your army is part of being the commander.


We saw orks go from 9 points to 6. I think we'll be seeing a points adjustment on ST's (and Guardsmen, for that matter), as well. Sisters, I believe, will stay about where they are now.

That seems to be the bigger issue. Not that SoB are too cheep but IG are too expensive.

Arhalien
09-12-2007, 17:39
I'm sure I remember reading somewhere that Boltguns produce too much recoil for a basic human to use.

The boltgun fire self propelled mini-missiles; as a result of that the recoil is minimal, as the great majority of the momentum comes from the round itself.

FashaTheDog
09-12-2007, 18:55
If you can why not give a Trygon and 32 deep striking Hormagaunts a try on a friendly game? Use those Lictors to get the Trygon in when you need it and pray it deep strike scatters within an 1" of something so you get the charge. If it survives the next shooting phase while it sits in close combat, then great more Sisters to snack on, if not that's fine too since 32 Hormagaunts will come in in the following turn right where the Trygon did and we all know how much fun 96 attacks on the charge can be.

Barring the giant snake of doom, you could also try running a Genestealer list with extended carapace and scuttlers the order of the day. Just remember the old saying; there is NO problem that cannot be solved by throwing enough Genestealers at it.

Other than that I can only advise you on how to make a Nidzilla list really effective. Take two units of Stealers as your troop choices as well as a trio of Lictors with those five 'Fexes. A Tyrant with three Guard means that he'll have to use at least two Exorcists to knock all 10 wounds off. A Broodlord and Stealer retinue should round your list off nicely. What this list does is give your foe the choice, big guys or little guys; either way you win. I prefer to go with three pure assault 'Fexes and two shooting 'Fexes who also dive in and use their 2 attacks to stomp S3 units. Yes those Acts of Faith will let bolters ignore your saves, but thats ok, as other says, it forces him to bleed Faith and the bolters still need 6's to wound any MC in your list. You get two options, depending upon his long ranged firepower.

The first is keep everything to cover, preferably buildings so you get a 4+ cover save, the same as your Stealer's regular save so only heavy flamers become an issue there. Just advance with your Lictors popping out to try and take an Exorcist and/or other vital target. Remember that those Lictors are one choice so they all come in at the same time but after that they are seperate units on the table so if they all hit the same squad on the turn they come in, those attacks back will be divided between three units, giving you the odds that at least one will still be alive to deny a shooting phase from Retributors or whatever unit you target. Rending on the Exorcist is just fine too since if you can at the very least glance it you have denied a shooting phase from it.

Now if the list has only one Exorcist (or maybe none at all), then you may feel a little more gutsy and just line your MCs up and march forward, ignoring all difficult terrain (3D6 works well to keep you momentum going), although you may want to aim your intended route to pass through it, and disregard the incoming fire. Run the Stealers behind them ready to fleet out behind and between to hit a turn sooner. If you're successful, the sight is very scary as you simply deploy in one group pretty much regardless of your foes deployments and march in a striaght line laughing off casualties. This has worked against me once as one player I play now refuses to fight my full Nidzilla list as he has abandoned all hope of defeating it, as he was wiped out to the Marine with a 500 point advantage. He may still fight my standard list but the Trygon he has said is out, which I respect as in a Nidzilla list it can be a little overpower, hence fighting at a disadvantage (I have found that running 1500 points with the Trygon in a 1850 point pick up game seems to balance things out against most armies). Still it illustrates just how psychology can play a key roll as some other players I fight start the game playing smart, concentrating fire and spreading out, even if it means sacrificing shooting. However, as the game wears on and my relentless advance nears the point I declared at the beginning of the game that I was marching to, they start to become static so as to get off another few shots and spread their shooting across my entire army rather than dropping one unit at a time. Being complete unphased as you pull a Carnifex or two helps as your game is not just on the table where you're looking to beat your foe but also to mess with their head. I've stated this in other posts and I'll state it here, the purpose is not to be mean or malicious, it is to give a slight air of arrogance so as to unnerve them so that they forget their plan. You are not actually being arrogant to the point of driving the player away or making the game any less enjoyable. You only want to play a subtle head game to get them to abondon their plan as they realize they will not stop your advance and will be stuck in with assault Fexes and Stealers. Leaving the shooting 'Fexes out of combat, but in cover helps to keep them anchored nearby as they stay put to shoot them with the big guns hoping to kill the ranged beasts. This means that when you finish the unit your stuck in with, the other 'Fexes can advance to another.

Just some advice on how I run a rather successful Nidzilla list against all but Saim-Ham and pure mech Tau.

silashand
09-12-2007, 21:31
Welcome. Here's hoping I'll be able to beat my Tyranid opponent at some point. LOL :)

Sister Sin

It's definitely possible. I find that against nids (or any horde army for that matter), my Sisters excel. The sheer number of flame templates that I can put out in one turn is daunting to say the least, and I find that my 3+ save even vs genestealers is quite effective. I don't have to break or destroy the unit (though I have done the latter many times and the former a few when my opponent miscalculated his synapse range), but I can definitely say on most occasions that I will kill more than enough in the one round of shooting I do get to minimize my own casualties when I get into combat. Unless my opponent gets exceptionally lucky and gets a 6 for his fleet roll, I can almost invariably guarantee I will get off my shooting phase which is all I really need, and then I usually assault the nids myself to prevent them getting the extra attacks.

Not to brag or anything, but my brother took best general and third overall at the Baltimore GD tournament with his nids and he has yet to beat my Sisters with them, though he has drawn occasionally. Honestly, I can't remember the last time I lost to nids actually, but that may just be me I dunno. Sisters were my first 40K army and I have been playing them as my primary 40K force since the beginning of 3rd edition (around 10+ years I think). I don't think they are overpowered by any stretch of the imagination, but they do take some practice to get the hang of how to use them and they can be very good in the hands of someone who does.

Anyway, just comments. Take them for what you will...

Cheers, Gary

Holycrusader
09-12-2007, 21:50
After rading all that whinning on how the sisters are overpowered I know that I will take my siters to the next tournament :)

SOB are good army, they have PA and bolters. What they lacks are lascanons and minimax troops. Getting close to the enemy when you are T3 and S3 is very risky...

tarrin
09-12-2007, 22:37
i think they are a good choice for tournies as not many ppl have a lot of experience of playing against them.
if you are no familiar with yoru opponent army then it can be an issue.

The are definitely a force for a pro, as though they can dish it out the cant really take it. T3 is the biggest leveler as though having 3+ is nice, or even 3++ (at a price) wounds are easy to come by, which means failure will happen.

I have heard them described as a short range tau rather thana weaker marine force. Able to dish it out, but soft and juicy if played wrong.

My own opinion, from someone who runs 2 separate armies from the WH codex (SoB and arbites) is that is is one of teh best codices out there and offers a hell of a lot of choice, flexibility and fun to be had.

as for beating them, speed and timing are the key, you want to get in asap without suffering a heavy round or two of close range fire (heavy flamers and massed bolters make nids get sore heads). Use cover and don't be afraid to sacrifice what look like juicy targets to get it done with basic troops (gaunts will rip sisters apart in cc).
try taking a few lightly tooled MC's , but impressive models. put them at the front to invite fire, whilst your tooled up gaunts whip around the flanks.
Most ppl will always look at the MC's as the primary as guants are cheap right?

BrainFireBob
09-12-2007, 23:13
On power armor:

Power armor enhances the strength of the wearer.

This ability exists for normal humans in power armor.

The SM black carapace lets them connect to their armor's "muscle fibers" as if they were their own muscles. Consequently, aside from potential noise issues, a SM has the same mobility, speed, and reaction times in his armor as he does without it. Which is why the armor's "full potential" is only unlocked by SMs.

FashaTheDog
11-12-2007, 04:49
Wait I thought that anyone could unlock power armor's full potential with the Konami code?

zeep
11-12-2007, 06:20
Wait I thought that anyone could unlock power armor's full potential with the Konami code?

"In the Emporers name." Up-Down-Left-Right-A-B-A-B-Start. :D

Pandir
11-12-2007, 08:04
"In the Emporers name." Up-Down-Left-Right-A-B-A-B-Start. :D

Up-Up-Down-Down-Left-Right-Left-Right-B-A-Start you mean!