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Hand of Dume
07-12-2007, 16:13
I've been playing role playing games for going on 20 yrs now and been to many game stores and one thing i've noticed is... where's the women? It seems that girls don't like to play 40k or any other role playing games. My wife even gives me crap (jokingly) about playing and says it's for "geeks". My response is "you married this geek and I was playing long before we met". Anyway, my question is, are there many females that play with your gaming group or at your store and why is there a lack of interest from them to play?:confused:

Bloodknight
07-12-2007, 16:20
My observation: Women are not into Wargames. A lot however do like RPGs, mostly the White Wolf games and almost anything which is Fantasy, but not D&D. Shadowrun also tends to have a lot of female players in my region.

SharpSilver
07-12-2007, 16:22
Leik, what is this 'female' you speak of?@@??@@!!!

crandall87
07-12-2007, 16:23
You don't see many guys shoe shopping though.

Anointed_By_Filth
07-12-2007, 16:25
In my group we have two females, and rumor has it we'll be getting a third and fourth (one of them is highly doubtful though). My girlfriend plays and another player's girlfriend plays. My girlfriend is more into 40k but she recently went in with me to get wood elves for fantasy. My friend's girlfriend is more into fantasy though.

Agrip. Varenus Denter
07-12-2007, 16:29
I've been playing RPGs since '79 - aside from a few girls in school, I didn't know any female gamers until I got out on my own and visiting gaming clubs and conventions - which is apparently where they have been all this time en masse - Shadowrun and the World of Darkness games being the top choices, it seems. There's still a lot more men who play RPGs and tabletop wargames, though - and I think that's because of the vast majority of them being very male-based.

Be it the muscled barbarians of D&D, the all-male-no females allowed (and don't you even think about it or you may be branded a heretic by some folks) Space Marines... it's still a pretty high-testosterone fantasy.

Nephilim of Sin
07-12-2007, 16:29
I have met quite a few girls that are interested in the game. However, as was said, these are usually the women who like and play D&D. If you know any female artists, I can almost guarantee they will give the game a go (and, if they like it, out-paint you a hundred times over).

The problem is, most of these rare gems are taken, and usually venture out with their other half. If two people date AND both game, then they almost always do it together. This can make it hard for them to make gaming out regular, especially if there are children involved.

As well, were it not for Oblivion and WoW, you would be seeing a lot more female gamers out there too. I have seen a few 'casualties' of this myself.

Preston
07-12-2007, 16:38
My x-wife play(s? ed?) warmachine, and I have a few friends I've introduced to gaming in general. A few of my female friends up in OKC used to play AGoT CCG with me.

All in all, what I hear from female gamers seems to be "We don't like it when we walk in a game store and everyone stares at us like we're aliens invading their planet." IE: Yes, they have breasts, get over it and stop staring, and maybe you'd see more of them.

Grazzy
07-12-2007, 16:40
Yes, they have breasts, get over it and stop staring, and maybe you'd see more of them.

Ha, that made me laugh. The girls just dont seem to fit in with the male based gaming communities. I think there are female players but they hide away.

the1stpip
07-12-2007, 16:43
There is probably about half a dozen women at our club, ranging from full on rpg-ers to 'I'm tagging along with the bf'.

My wife jokingly gives me abuse, but she enjoyed Talisman, and likes the look of BB and Warhammer, so who knows.

Gaz
07-12-2007, 16:55
My girlfriend has a Tau army and plays WoW, and regularly comes to the store with me. She just takes the **** out of the people who can't stop staring. My mates wife has a Chaos army, but she's an utter **** so we don't associate with her (Even my mate hates her guts now...'nuff said really lol)

The Song of Spears
07-12-2007, 16:56
My observation: Women are not into Wargames. A lot however do like RPGs, mostly the White Wolf games and almost anything which is Fantasy, but not D&D. Shadowrun also tends to have a lot of female players in my region.

Seems Germany and Colorado are only a stones throw away. This is exactly what i have noticed here for the past 20 years.

My advice: if you have/know a girl who is willing to try a wargame, try to only play scenario games that are a part of a story. I find that my wife is way more conducive to Mordhiem than 40k because i have a map, story and character interaction even though Mordhiem has more rules than 40k. Story, plot, character... it's all that make WhiteWolf RPG the best, and if you can put some-o-dat into 40k, you might even get her interested in the game.

The pestilent 1
07-12-2007, 17:14
You don't see many guys shoe shopping though.

I'd totally wear knee high boots if I had the legs for them.


I shouldn't admit to that very often though I reckon.

Ozorik
07-12-2007, 17:25
Women and men have different interests its as simple as that. Its very rare to see a female gamer and those that I have seen are generally quite 'mannish'. Remember generally means not all before anyone gets their flame throuwer warmed up.

Its the same with any pasttime which appeals strongly to one of the sexes. How many men do you know who actually read celebrity magazines? Or women who have an unhealthy interest in football?

floyd pinkerton
07-12-2007, 17:31
hmm, though it's very certainly male-dominated, there are one or two of these 'females' you speak of.

our GWs just taken one on,and isn't Starlight on here a girl? Or have I just made a big mistake?

Nephilim of Sin
07-12-2007, 17:34
All in all, what I hear from female gamers seems to be "We don't like it when we walk in a game store and everyone stares at us like we're aliens invading their planet." IE: Yes, they have breasts, get over it and stop staring, and maybe you'd see more of them.


My girlfriend has a Tau army and plays WoW, and regularly comes to the store with me. She just takes the **** out of the people who can't stop staring.

See, there is the problem, and may be another reason why we don't see too many female gamers out there. Most might like to play with people they already know and are comfortable with just so they don't have to deal with this crap. I mean, yes, I can understand it can be somewhat 'weird' and 'new' to see a female gamer, but you don't need to stare. And no, just because she plays 40k or fantasy, you two are NOT destined for each other. They just want to be treated like everyone else, and there is no reason they shouldn't be...

Dwarf Supreme
07-12-2007, 17:42
I know they exist, but I personally don't know any girls who play wargames. I certainly wouldn't be adverse to it. I think it would do the hobby some good.

My current D&D group currently has one girl. At one time we had two, but she went away for college and never moved back to the area permanently. When I was playing Warhammer FRPG our group had three female players.

Hicks
07-12-2007, 17:42
Girls wargaming is a very rare sight for me, but keep in mind that I only play with friends in our homes and not at the LGS. I know of only one female who plays WHFB and it's my friends wife. I know a load of girls who play M:tG though.

Jo Bennett
07-12-2007, 17:46
Wargaming is more male dominated than roleplaying in my experience. At my uni the roleplaying society was probably about 60-40 male-female, with women tending to be drawn towards the live end of things, and not many into wargames, beyond the occasional smattering of bloodbowl.

sucramreverse
07-12-2007, 17:46
My mom used to play with the D&D crowd, course she was a geek(at least in the pictures).

I agree with Preston, it's our disbelief when they want to play that makes them not want to play. If everyone would just 'act' like it was normal, maybe it'd be more normal.

Shadowseer Crofty
07-12-2007, 17:49
our GWs just taken one on,and isn't Starlight on here a girl? Or have I just made a big mistake?
I seem to remember Starlight's sig used to contain the quotes "Starlight ISN'T a lesbian?" and "I always thought starlight was a girl" (or words to the effect of), so it's a common misconception.


Its the same with any pasttime which appeals strongly to one of the sexes. How many men do you know who actually read celebrity magazines?
"No heterosexual man reads Heat magazine." *other office worker walks in* "Where's my copy of Heat?"
cookie for the reference

Back to the point. I my uni gaming club there are two of the Females of myth. Neither get stared at when they walk in (maybe because the people are used to seeing them there...)

Fenriz
07-12-2007, 17:58
We have one female gamer at my local store.

But she started life as a male.

So take that as you will.

theunwantedbeing
07-12-2007, 18:12
I've come across 3 female gamers at my local games workshop.
In something like 3-4 years.

The first was an orc and goblin player with a huge unit of squigs, never got to play her she was 17/18 I guess.

The second was a woman who had...an army, she was playing but I well...wasnt looking at the game. Not everyday you see an attratice lady playing warhammer you know...my brain sortof crashed and I was stuck like that untill she left and I had time to reboot.

The third is the girlfriend of one of the "regular" players. She's about 17 and has a wood elf army. She doesnt know any of her armies stats and I had to continually state stats and rules for her so the game could progress at a normal pace. Only seen her once....possibly could have scared her away. Doesnt matter, she called an armybook a codex so good riddance!

Fenriz
07-12-2007, 18:24
The third is the girlfriend of one of the "regular" players. She's about 17 and has a wood elf army. She doesnt know any of her armies stats and I had to continually state stats and rules for her so the game could progress at a normal pace. Only seen her once....possibly could have scared her away. Doesnt matter, she called an armybook a codex so good riddance!

And no wonder there arent any female gamers. Youre a shining beacon of good gaming behavior. And a master of chivalry. Well done. :eyebrows:

Couldnt have possibly made allowances because she was learning could you? No, course not. :rolleyes:

And as for the codex/army book comment; words fail me. I occasionally call them codexs and iv been playing for 13 years. Grow up. :eyebrows:

Sojourner
07-12-2007, 18:29
This thread is your answer.

Stop acting like saddoes. That's what puts them off. Grow up, treat them as human beings and try to have some semblance of social graces. Having a bath and a haircut might help too. And quit the staring.

No, I'm not a woman. I'm a guy who's ashamed to be seen going into gaming stores because of the people you get associated with.

der_lex
07-12-2007, 18:29
I guess I'm lucky in that regard. In our 7-man D&D/LARP group, there are three women, including my wife (she was very skeptical about LARP first, until she gave it a try...now she's almost as enthusiastic about it as I am). Of those three, one of the plays Warhammer (Dark Elves) and my wife still intends to give it a try, since she likes the models (the tactical aspect of the game is a bit daunting to her, though). I can second the odd looks from other gamers when my wife comes into a game store or GW with me, though. The wargaming community itself doesn't seem to be very 'girl-friendly'. Then again, roleplaying and LARPing used to be pretty much male-dominated as well, and that's gotten a lot better... so hopefully it's just a matter of time.

Fenriz
07-12-2007, 18:34
No, I'm not a woman. I'm a guy who's ashamed to be seen going into gaming stores because of the people you get associated with.

Pretty much. Most gamers id be ashamed to be seen in the same room with.

And i refuse to take my girlfriend anywhere near the place. The stares she gets border on harrassment.

Terminatorphoenix
07-12-2007, 19:03
I'd totally wear knee high boots if I had the legs for them.


I shouldn't admit to that very often though I reckon.




Fenriz

We have one female gamer at my local store.

But she started life as a male.

So take that as you will.

SOOOO tempting to sig those two.....

Anyway, I think the problem is that the miniatures are primarily marketed to men(have you seen dark elves and deamonettes?)

Arianwen
07-12-2007, 20:25
Oh good lords, yet another one of these threads :rolleyes:

I would say because it's badly marketed to women (I demand skinny fit Gaunt's Ghosts t-shirts and I demand them now :p) and the sterotypes put a lot of us off. Plus, any woman in a GW is either harrassed or ignored. I know. Although Games Day wasn't that bad, surprisingly. If I had a semblance of money, patience and people to play against that wouldn't creep me out, I would play. At the moment I'm confined to painting and books.

On a lighter note, I think this comic (http://www.somethingpositive.net/sp12272001.shtml) (and maybe even this one (http://www.somethingpositive.net/sp12282001.shtml)) apply quite well, even if they are about roleplaying and not gaming :p

moose
07-12-2007, 20:45
"No heterosexual man reads Heat magazine." *other office worker walks in* "Where's my copy of Heat?"
cookie for the reference

Theres only two ways a guy will read a girls mag.

1. Its More magasine and they skip straight to the 'Letters In' section....
2. Its either that or actually engage in conversation with your girlfriends friends


Back on topic....
GW Leeds is next to Anne Summers, this is what I find:
Ugly, sweaty, freaky girls enter GW to purchase war toys.
Fit(ter?) girls enter Anne Summers to purchase fun toys.

A clear process of Darwin's natural selection in action i'm sure.

[Dislcaimer: Im sure not all girls in the hobby are *****]

Warboss Jhura Ironfang
08-12-2007, 02:23
At my LGS we have bout 10 female Warhammer players, and god knows how many RPGer's (can't stand any game that requires more than D6's).

So maybe Dragon's Lair is an odd spot in the world...

requiem
08-12-2007, 02:42
Back on topic....
GW Leeds is next to Anne Summers, this is what I find:
Ugly, sweaty, freaky girls enter GW to purchase war toys.
Fit(ter?) girls enter Anne Summers to purchase fun toys.

A clear process of Darwin's natural selection in action i'm sure.

[Dislcaimer: Im sure not all girls in the hobby are *****]

In response to your comment, I go to both and enjoy them both, very much! And I am not *****!!1one! :mad:



:p.



To be honest, I think the guys have said it all really. There is a certain 'stigma' attached to wargaming and alot of girls/women would rather live without that. I have had a few girls in my room (;)) interested in my models - one went as far to say she would love to paint but didnt want to be a 'geek'. I might just be a girl/woman mentality - always caring about what other people think of them so let awesome things pass by.

I am the first to admit I am very shakey on stats etc but I am still learning and alot of guys I know from uni don't have the time or the patience to help me. I feel they *expect* you to know X amount of information and when you don't know it? Tough. No game today love. There are many that are not like that at all but that could put girls off the hobby if that was their first encounter with it.

I do remember a time when I used to slag my boyfriend for being a total geek, but now it is fair to say that I am becoming a bigger geek than he is! I know alot of girls in my hall laugh at me for embracing my 'geekdom' but I don't give a damn because I am enjoying every last second of it.


Julie.


EDIT:
I'd totally wear knee high boots if I had the legs for them.


I shouldn't admit to that very often though I reckon.

You made me laugh out loud with that comment! I had to sig it, it was just too good not to!

Arkzein
08-12-2007, 03:23
Just to put my oar in I've never met a female gamer (RPG or otherwise) but then again I've only ever played in a school club years ago and with my mates and I'm from a backwards country town in ireland ;). Not surprising as it is a male dominated passtime, boys and their toys and all that. (Best not get into the nurture debate, girls being raised differently to boys, only been changing recently with video gaming for example) However I've actually been rather surprised by how many women I've met that upon finding I paint minis admit they also paint models. (ok, so still single figures and mostly not warhammer, but still surprised me at least)

Nice to share passtimes and all but honestly for me, gaming at least, is a bit of craic with the lads and happy enough keeping it as such. (though I admit this mindset of "it's a guy thing" would leave a lot of the women-folk feeling like an intruder and may be part of the problem. ;)) Wouldn't worry about women gamers being there though, honestly it's more that I'm not sure I'd want my partner to game, don't want to do everything together. (Bit like a lad's night out but geekier ;))

One thing I would say is that it wouldn't be *so* bad if almost every bloke wasn't lusting after the few women gamers. Bit of a generalisation and fair enough mostly the younger crowd but there does seem to be the mindset of "My god a woman gamer, my dreams answered!". Though I guess somewhat understandible from your general insecure teen. I have seen a few women wander into Games Workshop before (when I was younger, late teens myself) and do agree it was awkward. (From the reaction and change of atompshere of most in the store I mean). Conversation dying, nervous laughter, folk trying to ignore her and avoid even looking in her direction. I mean come on guys! Bound to be offputting, I wouldn't expect that walking into a lingerie store to get a gift for my girlfriend yet it seems worse when a young woman walks into GW!

Less of a problem (none at all) in more mature settings at least. I was briefly a member of a mainly historical club also. (everyone older than 18, most 30s and 40s) and the odd wives or daughter that were interested who came along didn't even get a raised eyebrow. (This is why I'm somewhat biased and generalising the younger folk, I know many aren't, sorry)

One thing I would be honestly interested in is if there are any female dominated gaming groups out there. Plenty of blokes meeting regularly with just a few guys in a mate's house, why not women? Takes the whole "how guy's react" problem out of the equation.

Anyway, I'm rambling now. Female gamers (and the lack thereof) is one of those endless conversations that turns up again and again. I'd just say give it no thought, folk will play if intersted, just try not to be awkward, they don't bite! *laughs*

*edit* As an aside I've been trying to think of something similar that is female dominated and can't come up with anything. Knitting, Flower arranging? Still doesn't seem so odd for a guy to head to those, at least not so odd that it gets stares and awkwardness. :)

Cirrus the Blue
08-12-2007, 03:39
I've been playing role playing games for going on 20 yrs now and been to many game stores and one thing i've noticed is... where's the women? It seems that girls don't like to play 40k or any other role playing games. My wife even gives me crap (jokingly) about playing and says it's for "geeks". My response is "you married this geek and I was playing long before we met". Anyway, my question is, are there many females that play with your gaming group or at your store and why is there a lack of interest from them to play?:confused:

Ah, there's lots actually! They just never go into the shop to actually do their gaming. :p I've seen plenty though, even met a couple girl staffers, and they do buy enough stuff. Some are really cute, too! ;) They exist, but just don't hang around and game at the shops NEARLY as much.

- Cirrus

requiem
08-12-2007, 03:44
Nice to share passtimes and all but honestly for me, gaming at least, is a bit of craic with the lads and happy enough keeping it as such. (though I admit this mindset of "it's a guy thing" would leave a lot of the women-folk feeling like an intruder and may be part of the problem. ;))

That is what I have found with most guys and I would go as far to say I agree. I have been 'raised' by guys if you like, never had a real 'girl friend' and I don't think I want one to be honest. I am not a butch girl but I do get on with guys so much better. When you have had a hard/ stressful day, the last thing you need is a woman on your toes about everything ( I will admit, I am not innocent!) so you go to 'the club'. A little 'lads time' to get away from it all. I really don't think that will ever change and I don't think I would want it to, to be honest. If I were a girly girl, the last thing I would want is my boyfriend to come on a girls weekend to the Spa and then hit the shops for some retail therapy. I am just glad I can fit in with the 'lads' and don't make them feel that awkward. Well, after they drool for a few minutes because I have breasts...:eek: Who would have thought it?




*edit* As an aside I've been trying to think of something similar that is female dominated and can't come up with anything. Knitting, Flower arranging? Still doesn't seem so odd for a guy to head to those, at least not so odd that it gets stares and awkwardness. :)

I have been thinking too, I don't think there are many things that we do that are similar. Maybe going to get a facial and waxed would be a 'normal' female hobby? Even if it isn't I think I might actually pay good money to see you lot getting waxed! That **** burns! ;).


Julie.

Hellebore
08-12-2007, 03:57
My boss plays warhammer. She also RPs in the various games we run.

She is right now working on a tarot deck for the 40k RPG about to come out (which she helped me playtest).

Her husband is technically a gamer, but funnily enough, she does more gaming than he does.

Hellebore

TheNZer
08-12-2007, 03:57
I've met/seen a few women gamers, one who played Warmachine one who played for a littel while before dropping it and another hwo palyed LOTR. Some of my friends who are girls know about it but most jsut think about it as 'oh it's painting peices of plastic!"

It seems to me (and I could be wrong) that self Image means alot to girls and to be seen palying with "plastic" would just about kill a good number of them.

However I' just a Geek who likes Plastic models so I wouldn't know :D

Arkzein
08-12-2007, 04:04
I have been thinking too, I don't think there are many things that we do that are similar. Maybe going to get a facial and waxed would be a 'normal' female hobby? Even if it isn't I think I might actually pay good money to see you lot getting waxed! That **** burns! ;).


Julie.

*laughs* Guys can do that too! Probably only once though, it can also bleed.... ;)

The Spa and and shopping is a good example perhaps. Say a group of women who have an informal "club" and head off one weekend a month or so. May get awkward if a guy asked along for that.

danscan
08-12-2007, 04:14
The joke with my wife is that she tells her friends that I am actually at the strip club(nudy bar, gentlemens club(Have you seen or been a gentlemen at one of these places)) when I am out playing at the store.

We don't do shoe shopping and girls don't do war games.

requiem
08-12-2007, 04:20
It seems to me (and I could be wrong) that self Image means alot to girls and to be seen palying with "plastic" would just about kill a good number of them.

I think you have hit the nail on the head there. As I said before, woman care what other people think of them - too much. I care what other people think of me (I'm a woman, sue me :p) but maybe not *as* much as others.


However I' just a Geek who likes Plastic models so I wouldn't know

You know a fair bit, you can see into the truth of things....(points for guessing where that was stolen from;))




it can also bleed.....

Oh it does, too much!


The Spa and and shopping is a good example perhaps. Say a group of women who have an informal "club" and head off one weekend a month or so. May get awkward if a guy asked along for that.

Woman might not have a problem with that, if they suspected or knew he was gay. Its the same *kind* of situation I think: woman who wargame with the guys -butch/man-like. Men who go to spas with woman - feminine/not a *real* man. Both stereotypes that are not always true.

inquisitor solarris
08-12-2007, 07:39
i see three women go to gws and 1 would actually play 40k, the other two would paint most of the time (they're good painters as well.)

Gaebriel
08-12-2007, 10:49
When I switched from roleplaying to wargaming the number of involved women abruptly sank. There are a lot of women playing rpgs, most are not stereotypical women, as well as most men playing rpgs are not stereotypical men.

For wargaming - well, I haven't met any woman we didn't introduce to the game ourselves - all in all three and all except one were girlfriends, who were only casually interested.

One of my female friends occasionally had fun by crashing the local GW (she's quite a stunner) - and that was for mocking, though she plays rgps - guess the two scenes don't mix too well... :rolleyes:

Interesting... when I scroll down the main player database for my state I find a 364:9 male:female ratio (2.41%) in wargaming, compared to a 579:82 ratio (12.41%) in roleplaying...

Weavetoucher
08-12-2007, 11:01
I met my wife thru a MUD many years ago and she was a regular roleplayer as well, we got together and we still RP and wargame as well, she does much prefer RP though as she likes to really get into the characters and she can't really do that in a wargame cept for maybe favourite commanders.. She does unsuprisingly really like necromunda because she can 'get into' her 'characters' and give em all a bit of personality and playstyle...
We have had female friends get into our hobbies as well and they all preferred RP to wargaming because they could really get into character down to what soap they buy etc and are less worried bout playing something just for the win...

scratchbuilt
08-12-2007, 11:51
The amount of crunch, and competition are as much of a turnoff to women as celebrities and soaps are to guys. But the roleplaying, painting and boardgaming aspects aren't. I imagine more women will get into it as they see other women playing. Some Buffy or 'the craft' type style input wouldn't be the end of the world

Easy E
08-12-2007, 12:07
I will sum up this thread into three points. Ladies , correct me if I am way off base on any of this.

1. Ladies are more interested in the social aspects of hobbies. Therefore, why go to a store and play with strangers. They would prefer to play with people they know and have built a connection with.

2. Ladies are focused on story telling and the big picture. Most game store activities are about competition, not shared experience/story-telling.

3. Ladies are not catered to by a game store environment. It is not comfortable or welcoming.

Cirrus the Blue
08-12-2007, 13:53
I hope this doesn't mean that I'm a lady now, too... :(

- Cirrus

mistformsquirrel
08-12-2007, 15:39
I've played D&D with several girls over the years, its honestly funny, because a couple times a female player would be playing a hulking male barbarian... and then there's me, playing the little catgirl...

Yes... it was interesting!

I think its mostly a thing of inclination - in fact I'd go as far as to say its not "inclination" as in "men just like this kind of thing, women don't" but rather one of societal pressures. Ie: Boys are often encouraged in rough play and exploration of military themes - heck, the toys we played with as kids were as often as not toy guns and swords, ya know?

Girls are given Barbies and the like.

Undoubtedly some of it is just a gender thing - men have always been more warlike; but I think its often just that guys inclination toward competitive games comes from our upbringing more often than not, and women's disinclination is similar.

I did however know one woman that played 40k for a pretty long time, from 2nd ed all the way till a year or so ago. Altaoic and Space Wolves I think she said. She quit though for a lot of reasons, a big one being the guys in her area were complete jerks. (Which says nothing of wargamers on the whole - merely the people in her area).

I guess summed up I think its just largely a matter of upbringing, with a side of hormones. Girls are "supposed" (society-wise) to like pink fluffy things, and guys are "supposed" to like bugs and guns. When a guy likes pink fluffy things, his sexuality is questioned. When a girl likes bugs and guns, she's considered 'butch' or a 'tomboy' (depending often on outward characteristics - ie: is she cute).

And so it goes you don't get many girls in hobbies like this because they aren't brought up in the belief these things are socially acceptable for females.

That said, I bet we'll see an uptick of female players of RPGs and even Wargames in the coming decade. People are slowly becoming less inhibited by 'gender role' issues, and I think that'll change things. That said, some of it is probably just an issue of hormones, so I doubt we'd ever see a 50/50 split in the hobby; I'd expect more like 80/20 M/F.

Oh, and I'll add: You may not think it, but there are PLENTY of guys who go shopping for shoes and the like! You can't tell me you've never heard of a Metrosexual? >.< My brother is as straight as can be, but he loves getting clothes and shoes and other such things; nice cologne and all... Trust me we males can be every bit as primpy and shopping-centric as the female half of the species often is depicted.

<@_@>; And jeebus I type too much when I get going.

mistformsquirrel
08-12-2007, 15:44
Having a bath and a haircut might help too.

I'll have you know I am impeccably well groomed!

And I've been told my long hair is quite cute! Harrumph! >.>


... <.< Though you have an excellent point really.

scratchbuilt
08-12-2007, 16:12
I've played D&D with several girls over the years, its honestly funny, because a couple times a female player would be playing a hulking male barbarian... and then there's me, playing the little catgirl...

Yes... it was interesting!

I think its mostly a thing of inclination - in fact I'd go as far as to say its not "inclination" as in "men just like this kind of thing, women don't" but rather one of societal pressures. Ie: Boys are often encouraged in rough play and exploration of military themes - heck, the toys we played with as kids were as often as not toy guns and swords, ya know?

Girls are given Barbies and the like.

Undoubtedly some of it is just a gender thing - men have always been more warlike; but I think its often just that guys inclination toward competitive games comes from our upbringing more often than not, and women's disinclination is similar.

I did however know one woman that played 40k for a pretty long time, from 2nd ed all the way till a year or so ago. Altaoic and Space Wolves I think she said. She quit though for a lot of reasons, a big one being the guys in her area were complete jerks. (Which says nothing of wargamers on the whole - merely the people in her area).

I guess summed up I think its just largely a matter of upbringing, with a side of hormones. Girls are "supposed" (society-wise) to like pink fluffy things, and guys are "supposed" to like bugs and guns. When a guy likes pink fluffy things, his sexuality is questioned. When a girl likes bugs and guns, she's considered 'butch' or a 'tomboy' (depending often on outward characteristics - ie: is she cute).

And so it goes you don't get many girls in hobbies like this because they aren't brought up in the belief these things are socially acceptable for females.

That said, I bet we'll see an uptick of female players of RPGs and even Wargames in the coming decade. People are slowly becoming less inhibited by 'gender role' issues, and I think that'll change things. That said, some of it is probably just an issue of hormones, so I doubt we'd ever see a 50/50 split in the hobby; I'd expect more like 80/20 M/F.

Oh, and I'll add: You may not think it, but there are PLENTY of guys who go shopping for shoes and the like! You can't tell me you've never heard of a Metrosexual? >.< My brother is as straight as can be, but he loves getting clothes and shoes and other such things; nice cologne and all... Trust me we males can be every bit as primpy and shopping-centric as the female half of the species often is depicted.

<@_@>; And jeebus I type too much when I get going.

Captain obvious to the rescue! ;)
Stereotypically speaking:
Girl children are ignored, boy children are subjugated, which leads to women growing up to be whiney, men to be jerky. Broadly speaking of course. It's very easy for a boy to be ignored or a girl to be subjugated leading to a weak guy or a nagging woman and so on.
But basically we are all different, talking in platitudes and hegemonising generalities is the sign of a pitiful person:chrome:

Easy E
08-12-2007, 16:35
But basically we are all different, talking in platitudes and hegemonising generalities is the sign of a pitiful person:chrome:


I think he just called us all pitiful.

Well, it wasn't the first time and it won't be the last time. ;)

@Cirrus- When it comes to my three criteria I'm a lady too.

kane40k
08-12-2007, 18:12
well my mates sister did.... she playes 'nids.... but then she went 2 college and quit!

silly girly!

mistformsquirrel
08-12-2007, 18:17
Captain obvious to the rescue! ;)
Stereotypically speaking:
Girl children are ignored, boy children are subjugated, which leads to women growing up to be whiney, men to be jerky. Broadly speaking of course. It's very easy for a boy to be ignored or a girl to be subjugated leading to a weak guy or a nagging woman and so on.
But basically we are all different, talking in platitudes and hegemonising generalities is the sign of a pitiful person:chrome:

Not sure I agree with that. For one I wasn't speaking in platitudes by any stretch. Nor was I saying anything about the nature of people OTHER THAN their likely interest in wargames. Girls aren't exposed to things of a military bent at a young age except on rare and unusual occassions; and its generally discouraged.

It seems fairly obvious to me that this would turn off a huge chunk of the female population from doing something, just as a large chunk of the male population would find the idea of being a fashion designer unpalatable, not because they lack the interest or aptitude per se, but because its seen as a thing for women or (now) gay men; straight boys don't design dresses, apparently.

I don't quite get your comment about being pitiful either. What is pitiful about trying to answer a question as wholly and completely as one is able? I may be speaking in generalities, but then who doesn't? Every time someone says "X group of people tend to Y" they're talking about a generality.

We as wargamers are both subjected to those generalities, and come up with generalities for our social opponents, as with ourselves as well.

How many times have we heard someone complain about 'that guy who never showers'? As a general rule, its a good bet that in a room of nerds there's going to be at least one of them with bad BO. Hygiene, for whatever reason, is not the highest priority of everyone in the geek spectrum; and we know this, so we joke about it in general form. Likewise how many of the younger wargamers have we heard of being picked on by 'jocks' and their ilk at school for their 'nerdy' hobby?

Indeed how else do we identify ourselves as nerds but through a general commonality?

Its fairly obvious given the debates on this very website that not all Warhammer players are even remotely the same. I mean, post a topic in the 40k Background section, and you're almost dead certain to get SOME sort of an argument out of it, because at least one person isn't going to agree with the fluff as interpreted or presented.

So it strikes me as rather silly to consider speaking in generalities when trying to answer a broad question a somehow pitiful thing.

If its about my rather longwinded style of writing... well I can assure you; I realize I am overly verbose, but its one of those habits of writing we all develop. Some can't speak the 'l33t sp34k', others can't seem to use punctuation even when they know full well how... and then people like me just can't shut up... we go on and on and on...

I'm a grumpy old man in training, 50 years or so and I'll have my certificate; then I can stand on my porch all day and shout "Get off my lawn ya damn kids!".

How will I learn to be a grumpy old timer if I can't come up with longwinded explanations for everything?

scratchbuilt
08-12-2007, 19:50
I was merely saying the general idea that - girls do this, boys do that, is a small minded way of looking at things. If you don't think your post was like this - it prob wasn't. Yours was the first post to point out that men and women don't really fit their stereotypes, I was agreeing.
Some peoples posts are like, 'men are naturally more aggressive, women biologically like holding babies' but I wasn't singling yours as being like that.

Triggerdog
09-12-2007, 04:36
I tried to teach my wife how to play 40k and fantasy and it didnt work. She's really bad with numbers though which could be why. She doesnt give me crap for it though but now and then she does steal my paint because its cheaper than nail polish.

bassmasterliam
09-12-2007, 09:12
I think its because its a war game and most women are into war because really not to be sexist but war is a guy thing mostly.

FrankManic
10-12-2007, 03:11
My observation is that the more social aspects a game has (the game itself, rather than the community) the higher the percentage of women playing. As WH is all about violence (which is no longer considered a social activity) it has fewer female players (Though I bet 10th century Danish women would have loved it).

Oh, and a lot of the male players are so flagrantly antisocial that in twenty years there will be some sort of well funded 'Gamers Rights' movement to help improve the status of gamers, who at that point will be legally required to bathe daily and prevented from raising their voice above a certain volume by shock collars.

The Dude
10-12-2007, 04:22
Much of this thread makes me sad, so I will comment on the bits that make me smile.


This thread is your answer.

Stop acting like saddoes. That's what puts them off. Grow up, treat them as human beings and try to have some semblance of social graces. Having a bath and a haircut might help too. And quit the staring.

No, I'm not a woman. I'm a guy who's ashamed to be seen going into gaming stores because of the people you get associated with.

Ha ha! Saddoes. Gold!

I will second the staring thing. I have previously related a story of a young lass who seemed to take the defensive as soon as I tried to strike up a conversation in store. I wasn’t interested at all, but it seems to me she’s probably been hit on so much she feels the need to jump straight into the shoot-down. Sad really.


On a lighter note, I think this comic (http://www.somethingpositive.net/sp12272001.shtml) (and maybe even this one (http://www.somethingpositive.net/sp12282001.shtml)) apply quite well, even if they are about roleplaying and not gaming :p

Arianwen made The Dude smile with a pair of delightful old-school S*P links. Dare I re-read the entire archive again :eyebrows:?


I have been thinking too, I don't think there are many things that we do that are similar. Maybe going to get a facial and waxed would be a 'normal' female hobby? Even if it isn't I think I might actually pay good money to see you lot getting waxed! That **** burns! ;).

Pay up. I let the other half “emjoi” my entire stomach and chest last weekend. That’s a full hour of pain and a week of itching.

She OWES me :mad:

Hannah
10-12-2007, 08:36
I'm a female and I play, both toy soldier style games and roleplays. In our RP group there's 1 other female (there's only 5/6 of us anyway) at the moment we're playing Marvel superheroes.

Same female goes to the gaming club (when she can child permitting). Other than occaisional girlfriends I tend to be the only other girl at the club (not counting my two year old)I tend to play sporadically at the moment, though am in our Blood bowl league, and when I do I need plenty of patience (the two year old again).

I do both the RP and GW stuff with my husband, we met through the hobby so in a way it's 'right' it plays an important part in our lives. I've also been around this hobby for as long as I can remember (Dad who played, mum who painted), but I was lucky I am a girly girl and non girly girl in the same breath. I grew up playing equally with swords and dolls and my daughter is doing the same.

I'm also proud to say we think she's the youngest person to go to Warhammer world (according to a security gaurd there) at twelve days old, at one of the Carnage tournaments. We think she may also be a Chaos player when she grows up, and she already likes Cthulu.

Hellebore
10-12-2007, 12:21
You know, I'm about as tired of the 'smelly gamer that doesn't understand women' stereotype as I'm sure many women are of the 'only buys shoes' stereotype.

Those comics put up from Arianwen, whilst amusing, are derogatory to male gamers.

People like or don't like things. Not all women like shoes, not all women dislike wargames. Not all men like wargames, not all men dislike shoes.

Woopdydoo. However, this tired old stereotype of incompetent male gamers doesn't just put down those teenage males who have fragile selfesteem in the first place, it agravates the 'anti-female' stereotype.

We're all people, as soon as people start realising that and all the artificial partitions put up around us are removed the better off we will all be.

*Steps off soapbox, removes pontification hat*
Hellebore

requiem
10-12-2007, 13:00
Pay up. I let the other half “emjoi” my entire stomach and chest last weekend. That’s a full hour of pain and a week of itching.

She OWES me.

Ahh, should I be the one paying here? Don't be mad, you have earned yourself a hell of a bargaining tool!

I was asking about my flat mates about their thoughts on this topic, I got a few responses:

A female (stereotypical girly-girl): :wtf:....Wargaming...? LOL!

Male gamer: "More women should get into it, let the barriers down and enjoy it. They shouldnt care about what other people say about us because they can come down to the club and see that its true;). We don't care if you have a bad hair day, we wont laugh - well, we will but thats besides the point. It is a fun, really fun and relaxed atmosphere where you can just hang out, even if its with your boyfriend. Plus, we are cool as *******."

Male non-gamer: "I admire you lot, victims of ignorance"

Male non-gamer: "I wish I could play. Maybe then I would get a girlfriend....;)"


Listening to them discuss it made me chuckle. I do also laugh and joke about 'that guy' in GW who takes it too seriously and 'that girl' who confuses me: is she a he?, but you get that kind of mentality with any sort of hobby. If you are a gamer for example, chances are you can spot other gamers in town thanks to the stereotype. Myabe that is a good thing because you can quickly identify people with similar hobbies/interests in awkward social situations. My point is, I don't think it matters too much how girls see the hobby, if they are interested in it then they will put whatever complexes they have aside and get involved. Its also not something girls (generaly speeking) 'want' to be part of - war stories and glory? Give me a RomCom any day ;).

Anointed_By_Filth
10-12-2007, 18:05
Captain obvious to the rescue! ;)
Stereotypically speaking:
Girl children are ignored, boy children are subjugated, which leads to women growing up to be whiney, men to be jerky. Broadly speaking of course. It's very easy for a boy to be ignored or a girl to be subjugated leading to a weak guy or a nagging woman and so on.
But basically we are all different, talking in platitudes and hegemonising generalities is the sign of a pitiful person:chrome:

And using masses of big words means one wasn't raised with enough parental attention, right?

Anyway, on to other things. Look at the recurring theme in all of these posts. Women like to get in to character, women enjoy the painting aspect of the game. All of this has to do with women enjoying the artistic side of things more than the logical side of things. I've noticed that typically, when an RP group is male dominated, that the game tends to be more about dice than RP. The same goes with GW hobbies, it's made mostly by guys and is typically played in a way that guys enjoy. Put your models on the table and out-tactic/out-roll your opponent until he's dead. Women tend to just want more out of a game than bang, bang, you're dead I R teh winnorz! It's much like a relationship, alot of guys don't mind going to the bar and taking home a different woman every night. Women aren't like that, they tend to want one person for the rest of their life. It's just how we're made, men like that whole conquest thing for the most part, women not so much, they want something meaningful and the artistic side of the hobby is more meaningful to them than the stomping of dwarves under gobliny feet.

PotatoLegs
10-12-2007, 20:05
It's much like a relationship, alot of guys don't mind going to the bar and taking home a different woman every night. Women aren't like that, they tend to want one person for the rest of their life.
That is just wrong, and a terrible stereotype that's perpetuated way too much. Try working in a bar, you'll soon see exactly how much girls are just as predatory as any man.

Your other assumption about the reasons why the few girls are drawn to the hobby are probably fair ones, but I doubt its because of any inheirant differences in the sexes. There's few girls in the hobby as it is, that in itself should be the primary reason why they'd prefer the more solitary activities of the hobby

The Dude
10-12-2007, 21:48
Those comics put up from Arianwen, whilst amusing, are derogatory to male gamers.

And the fact they were drawn by a male gamer says...? :D

Nothing wrong with a bit of healthy self-deprecation ;)

PotatoLegs
10-12-2007, 21:53
oops, I read that as self-defacation.... :angel:

The Dude
10-12-2007, 21:58
oops, I read that as self-defacation.... :angel:

Nothing wrong with that either... is there? :eyebrows:

Arianwen
10-12-2007, 22:02
Those comics put up from Arianwen, whilst amusing, are derogatory to male gamers.
I was joking. It wasn't supposed to be personal. I date gamers and 99% of them are lovely people who are very different from the general stereotype. As I've already said, if I had money/patience/someone to teach me (and an ability to understand mathematics, as numbers terrify me) then I would play, simple as. I think it's just all down to what you're into.

Hellebore
10-12-2007, 22:14
And the fact they were drawn by a male gamer says...? :D

Nothing wrong with a bit of healthy self-deprecation ;)

My problem is more that it is mostly male self deprecation - had these comics been aimed at female stereotypes and shown them to be in such a bad light, all sorts of labels would have been thrown around, like misogynist, sexist etc.

I like self deprecation, I'm just a little tired of it ALWAYS being one sided.

Hellebore

PotatoLegs
10-12-2007, 22:22
:eyebrows: Are you really that much of a victim dude?

These things are only an issue if you choose to care so much about them- those comics were intended as a joke, treat them as such

Hellebore
10-12-2007, 22:23
Oh lighten up, I was joking :p - I date gamers and many of them are lovely people who are very different from the general stereotype. As I've already said, if I had money/patience/someone to teach me (and an ability to understand mathematics, as numbers terrify me) then I would play, simple as. I think it's just all down to what you're into.

Hey I like self deprecation - it just seems like every time any of these topics come up, it's always smelly incompetent male gamers.

Of course, the last (several) times I've tried "Oh lighten up, I was joking" on a woman she went into a 30 minute tiriade about how I was sexist/misogynist and how dare I make a joke.

It just seems to me that if it is sexist against women, it is to be instantly shot down with deadly force, but if it's sexist against men, then you should take it like a man and "lighten up."
I getting just a tad tired of that.:eyebrows:

I certainly wouldn't want people being 'forced' into doing things they don't like (I really dislike the girlfriend tagalong because you can see they don't really want to be there but are because they feel obligated).

In the words of Jack Nicholson, "Why can't we all just, get along?"

EDIT:
:eyebrows: Are you really that much of a victim dude?

These things are only an issue if you choose to care so much about them- those comics were intended as a joke, treat them as such

My point exactly. Perhaps my own personal experiences aren't the norm, but certainly the above statement is always thrown at me when a women is being misandrous, but as soon as a little piece of misogyny slips my lips, well the skin is flayed from my back and I'm hoisted up for all to ridicule (metaphorically speaking of course).



Hellebore

The pestilent 1
10-12-2007, 22:24
:eyebrows: Are you really that much of a victim dude?

These things are only an issue if you choose to care so much about them- those comics were intended as a joke, treat them as such

Where are you from?
I'm sure I could find some utterly racially insensitive joke that brings into question your worth as a human based upon your country.
Course, it would be fine as it's meant only as a joke.

The Dude
10-12-2007, 22:32
My problem is more that it is mostly male self deprecation - had these comics been aimed at female stereotypes and shown them to be in such a bad light, all sorts of labels would have been thrown around, like misogynist, sexist etc.

Didn't read the rest of the archive then, did you? :p

Try the first strip :eek:

Hellebore
10-12-2007, 22:35
Didn't read the rest of the archive then, did you? :p

Try the first strip :eek:

It isn't the comic so much as the social acceptance of that attitude (the comic just illustrated it).

I'll go have a look - the internet is certainly breaking down these kinds of barriers which I am very happy about.

viva la interwebz! :p

Hellebore

PotatoLegs
10-12-2007, 22:35
Where are you from?
I'm sure I could find some utterly racially insensitive joke that brings into question your worth as a human based upon your country.
Course, it would be fine as it's meant only as a joke.

If you're going to be as broad as that, we might as well get rid of all humour and comedy right? After all, a joke is more often than not at the expense of someone/thing.

It's all to do with context. I'd probably find you offensive because I don't know you from the local White Power retards that seem to per-meate pop up all over the place.

But I myself and my friends regularly make racist/sexist/bigotous jokes, not because we harbour resentment to anyone person or group (barring aforementioned WPs :p) but because we're familiar with one another and know that we ARE just joking. And as such we're sensitive that not everyone will understand our perspectives if we're not familiar with one another, so we watch what we say in public. I'm wagering you do a similar thing with your friends?

But beyond that I really think people shouldn't care about race or sex, and see it as the purely superficial thing that it is. Then everyone can happily be the butt of any joke ;)

So in the case of these jokes? No big-deal. Hellebore is concerned that when people make jokes at the expense of male-stereotypes, that he's not allowed to respond with similar jabs at women.

He should just hang with people that aren't so damned up themselves :angel:

The pestilent 1
10-12-2007, 22:39
/Snip

Err. Thanks for making my point? :p

Yeah, it's all about context, yeah it's about social setting and company.

If some random prannock (Like, say, a webcomic) calls you a misogynistic pig based upon the fact that you are a wargamer, you should get testy.

If it happened once in a while, then sure, I'd get over it.
But as the saying goes "If one man calls you an **** you can safely ignore him.. If ten men do it, it's a little more difficult".

The Dude
10-12-2007, 22:40
I know this thread was probably going to devolve into a P&R nightmare, but is it possible to salvage it from the brink?

Then again, is it advisable?

Hellebore
10-12-2007, 22:41
If you're going to be as broad as that, we might as well get rid of all humour and comedy right? After all, a joke is more often than not at the expense of someone/thing.

It's all to do with context. I'd probably find you offensive because I don't know you from the local White Power retards that seem to per-meate pop up all over the place.

But I myself and my friends regularly make racist/sexist/bigotous jokes, not because we harbour resentment to anyone person or group (barring aforementioned WPs :p) but because we're familiar with one another and know that we ARE just joking. And as such we're sensitive that not everyone will understand our perspectives if we're not familiar with one another, so we watch what we say in public. I'm wagering you do a similar thing with your friends?

But beyond that I really think people shouldn't care about race or sex, and see it as the purely superficial thing that it is. Then everyone can happily be the butt of any joke ;)

So in the case of these jokes? No big-deal. Hellebore is concerned that when people make jokes at the expense of male-stereotypes, that he's not allowed to respond with similar jabs at women.

He should just hang with people that aren't so damned up themselves :angel:


Lol, all my friends (male and female) are fine to make all sorts of taboo jokes.

It's the 'acquaintances', friend of a friend type people who line you up for a shoot down in the middle of a social gathering.

As I attempt to treat everyone equally, I treat people I don't know well the same way I treat my friends...

EDIT:Another interesting thing I've noticed about these gamer stereotypes is that I've yet to see a single female gamer portrayed the same way as the men - for some reason female gamers are well adjusted, happy, normal, and attractive, but male gamers are over or underweight ubergeeks with no social skills...

Hellebore

RavenMorpheus
10-12-2007, 22:42
I've been playing role playing games for going on 20 yrs now and been to many game stores and one thing i've noticed is... where's the women? It seems that girls don't like to play 40k or any other role playing games. My wife even gives me crap (jokingly) about playing and says it's for "geeks". My response is "you married this geek and I was playing long before we met". Anyway, my question is, are there many females that play with your gaming group or at your store and why is there a lack of interest from them to play?:confused:

Females do like roleplaying - just not our type of roleplaying ;)

In my experience girls/women/females whichever you wish to call them look upon "wargaming" as a kids thing, but then the women I meet are all shallow self obsessed Essex girls who'd rather be out getting blotto than stuck in a room full of blokes rolling dice...

Hellebore
10-12-2007, 22:52
My apologies for running the thread off topic.

I know off the top of my head 4 women interested in RPGs, but only 1 or 2 interested in wargames.

One only likes Warhammer Fantasy rather than 40k - dragons and magic and all that. She started a Bretonnian army but I'm not sure if she's ever finished it.

My boss has almost the entire Dark Angel Chapter (or it certainly seems like it) with models spanning the last 20 years in her collection. The Deathwing consists of at least one squad of almost every terminator model ever produced (including the original space hulk).

Hellebore

PotatoLegs
10-12-2007, 23:01
Err. Thanks for making my point? :p

Yeah sure, you're welcome :eyebrows: I think you kinda missed mine though?

Whilst we agree on the basic underlying concepts of being polite and considerate to other people, I'm proposing we go one step further to not even have to worry about that, because we'd all realise such stereotypes for what they are; vague, superficial, and ultimately inconsequential generalisations.

But perhaps I'm too optimistic for my own good :angel:

The Dude
10-12-2007, 23:19
EDIT:Another interesting thing I've noticed about these gamer stereotypes is that I've yet to see a single female gamer portrayed the same way as the men - for some reason female gamers are well adjusted, happy, normal, and attractive, but male gamers are over or underweight ubergeeks with no social skills...

Not necessarily. If you read S*P, you will see several flavours of gamer (male and female) portrayed. The “uber-geek” flavour exists only really in a couple of comics, and they are meant as caricatures of the extreme end. You can’t deny that although they may not represent all of the community, or even a majority, everybody has met at least one of this type of guy, and can appreciate a joke at their expense.

S*P’s main character Davan is also a gamer, but he is clean, healthy, and has a strong and diverse group of friends. Taking 1 or 2 strips out of an entire series isn’t really representative of how it portrays the community.

violenceha
10-12-2007, 23:36
I've met female gamers, they all looked like guys. I remember walking into the gaming section of my local and seeing nothing but long hair and flannel, it wasn't until I was introduced I realised some were women. One had a fairly decent mousatche for her age. Everyone who games there, male and female, stinks.

Arianwen
10-12-2007, 23:43
The problem is that the extremes do exist, just as they do everywhere else in society. When I went to Games Day, a random guy started talking to me in the shop and sat next to me on the bus. I'm a generally friendly person so we continued talking. It was when we were getting off the bus and he tried asking for my number, then stated, utterly seriously, that he was going to stalk me all day (which he tried to do, but Lavfluris helped me lose him somewhere near the signing tables) that I got a little... weirded out. I found someone else to sit next to me on the bus on the way home. He really made me feel uncomfortable, especially when he deliberately kept leaning across the person sat next to me to talk to me/ask for my number every five minutes. Now I'm certainly not suggesting that people like this don't exist everywhere else in society, but I've never been treated like that by a person who a) wasn't joking or b) wasn't drunk before.

Hellebore
10-12-2007, 23:47
Not necessarily. If you read S*P, you will see several flavours of gamer (male and female) portrayed. The “uber-geek” flavour exists only really in a couple of comics, and they are meant as caricatures of the extreme end. You can’t deny that although they may not represent all of the community, or even a majority, everybody has met at least one of this type of guy, and can appreciate a joke at their expense.

S*P’s main character Davan is also a gamer, but he is clean, healthy, and has a strong and diverse group of friends. Taking 1 or 2 strips out of an entire series isn’t really representative of how it portrays the community.

These are not the ones that always make it into the limelight. Almost every time this topic comes up, and any webcomics are involved (which they often are) they are typified by the smart, clean, well adjusted female and the stinky useless ubergeek male.

I'm talking not only about the comic but the social perception as well. I very rarely see a thread on this website that doesn't paint gamers in that light - from not wanting to wear a backpack with the imperial eagle on it because it makes you look like one of those smelly ubergeeks, to anyone attempting anything that puts Warhammer in front of what they do.

When even the people that play the game start putting themselves and their hobby down, what do you do?

I enjoy my hobby and all that it entails. It is only as geeky and smelly as you choose to make it.

Playing games does not a smelly ubergeek make.
Being a smelly ubergeek makes a smelly ubergeek.

hellebore

The Dude
11-12-2007, 00:23
The problem is that the extremes do exist, just as they do everywhere else in society.
[snip]
Now I'm certainly not suggesting that people like this don't exist everywhere else in society, but I've never been treated like that by a person who a) wasn't joking or b) wasn't drunk before.

And this story, like the webcomic, shouldn’t be taken as the norm. It is the interaction of 2 people in a whole swirling mass of humanity. Webcomics make fun of this extreme, quite frankly, because they are easy targets. It’s a cheap laugh, and one many people can relate to.

That said, there’s a first time for everything, and that includes being hit on repeatedly by a sober guy too stupid to take a hint. I imagine this could just have easily happened outside of the wargaming community.


Playing games does not a smelly ubergeek make.
Being a smelly ubergeek makes a smelly ubergeek.

Too true. I just don't think we need to get all knee-jerk over the portrayal of what is essentially a subgroup within the wargaming community as a whole, especially when we all agree that the portrayal of that sub-group is essentially accurate (if exaggerated).

Arianwen
11-12-2007, 00:32
I don't mind being hit on, I can handle that. It's the fact that he literally followed me around for a good hour. But no, it's not the norm, and I definately wasn't saying that nor trying to say those two S*P comics represented the norm either.

Hellebore
11-12-2007, 00:32
Too true. I just don't think we need to get all knee-jerk over the portrayal of what is essentially a subgroup within the wargaming community as a whole, especially when we all agree that the portrayal of that sub-group is essentially accurate (if exaggerated).

No we don't, but the knee jerk depiction (by gamers themselves) to being a gamer IS that subgroup unfortunately.

Anyway, to get back on topic. From my own experiences and from what has been mentioned here in this thread, of all the sub genres of the 'gaming' label, it appears that women prefer Roleplaying.

From my experiences with my 3 sisters growing up, they much preferred to play 'dress-ups' and act out stories with an assortment of various Vinnies clothes my mum had bought for that reason, than use toys to to do the same.

I would do exactly the same thing but project my stories onto my toys. I suppose they would do it with their barbie dolls as well (generally we had different stories in mind) but they seemed more interested in make believe where they were part of the story rather than a 3rd person story teller.

Perhaps this is part of the reason women seem to prefer RPGs?

Hellebore

The Dude
11-12-2007, 00:41
I don't mind being hit on, I can handle that. It's the fact that he literally followed me around for a good hour. But no, it's not the norm, and I definately wasn't saying that nor trying to say those two S*P comics represented the norm either.

Yeah, I didn't mean to infer that you were. I only realised after posting that it sort of sounded like I was addressing that directly to you. What I was trying to say, and you no doubt understand this, is that his behaviour had nothing to do with his being a gamer, and everything to do with his being a creepy guy.

Poor thing. I feel a bit sorry for him :(


No we don't, but the knee jerk depiction (by gamers themselves) to being a gamer IS that subgroup unfortunately.

I’m not sure what you mean. Are you saying that the smelly geeky ones are the ones who want to hide their gaming for fear of revealing their geekyness, or do you mean there is a sub-group of “too-cool-for-school” gamers who feel the need to rag on the smelly, geeky ones?

Or do you mean something else? :confused:


Anyway, to get back on topic. From my own experiences and from what has been mentioned here in this thread, of all the sub genres of the 'gaming' label, it appears that women prefer Roleplaying.

From my experiences with my 3 sisters growing up, they much preferred to play 'dress-ups' and act out stories with an assortment of various Vinnies clothes my mum had bought for that reason, than use toys to to do the same.

I would do exactly the same thing but project my stories onto my toys. I suppose they would do it with their barbie dolls as well (generally we had different stories in mind) but they seemed more interested in make believe where they were part of the story rather than a 3rd person story teller.

Perhaps this is part of the reason women seem to prefer RPGs?

I think this could well be the case. I’d be interested to hear more discussion along these lines.

Hellebore
11-12-2007, 01:14
I’m not sure what you mean. Are you saying that the smelly geeky ones are the ones who want to hide their gaming for fear of revealing their geekyness, or do you mean there is a sub-group of “too-cool-for-school” gamers who feel the need to rag on the smelly, geeky ones?

Or do you mean something else? :confused:


What I meant was that any time I see a thread or post on Warseer (which obviously doesn't mean much for the community at large but does for this community) talking about 'Gamers' in general, it just seems to always be from the perspective of that particular stereotype.

The Apocalypse backpack thread, where people kept talking about geekdom etc.

Or where people start saying things like, 'embrace your smelly ubergeekiness' don't pretend it's something else etc.

It appears to me that when anyone here starts talking about 'The Gamer' they are referring to the stereotyped kind. It would be nice to see 'The Gamer' lose that connotation, so that it isn't implied every time someone rolls their eyes at 'gamers'.



Hellebore

The Dude
11-12-2007, 01:22
What I meant was that any time I see a thread or post on Warseer (which obviously doesn't mean much for the community at large but does for this community) talking about 'Gamers' in general, it just seems to always be from the perspective of that particular stereotype.

The Apocalypse backpack thread, where people kept talking about geekdom etc.

Or where people start saying things like, 'embrace your smelly ubergeekiness' don't pretend it's something else etc.

It appears to me that when anyone here starts talking about 'The Gamer' they are referring to the stereotyped kind. It would be nice to see 'The Gamer' lose that connotation, so that it isn't implied every time someone rolls their eyes at 'gamers'.

Ahh. Well I must agree with you here. Why anyone would want to embrace their smelly ubergeekiness is beyond me. Can we embrace our hobby openly without being smelly or an ubergeek? I'm pretty sure I have been for years :eyebrows:

der_lex
11-12-2007, 01:36
What I meant was that any time I see a thread or post on Warseer (which obviously doesn't mean much for the community at large but does for this community) talking about 'Gamers' in general, it just seems to always be from the perspective of that particular stereotype.

The Apocalypse backpack thread, where people kept talking about geekdom etc.

Or where people start saying things like, 'embrace your smelly ubergeekiness' don't pretend it's something else etc.

It appears to me that when anyone here starts talking about 'The Gamer' they are referring to the stereotyped kind. It would be nice to see 'The Gamer' lose that connotation, so that it isn't implied every time someone rolls their eyes at 'gamers'.



Hellebore

The problem here is, as with any group (takes Muslims, for example...but don't dwell on that, don't want this to be P&R'd), it's the bad ones that tend to stand out and form the general opinion of people who aren't 'in the know'.
Combine that with the fact that this kind of gaming is a hard thing to explain to 'outsiders', and you're pretty much stuck with the negative stereotypes.

The worst thing, though, is that there's something of a 'geek hierarchy (http://www.brunching.com/geekhierarchy.html)' as well, and geeks tend to, for some reason, kick down at the 'lesser' geeks. There was a very heated discussion quite a while ago between myself and another user (who I haven't seen around much anymore, fortunately), who was utterly convinced that LARPers were some kind of antisocial subhumans who should be shunned and ridiculed. trust me, and negative stereotypes in this thread were nothing compared to what that guy (and a few others with him) would dish out. I guess it comes from some kind of insecurity... the 'I might be bad, but at least I'm not as bad as...' kind of thinking.

So I guess the only thing you can do is be the best geek you can be... and break the stereotype by not living up to it (ie: having some sort of personal hygiene routine, and not treating girls/women like foreign (sex) objects. :D).




Anyway, to get back on topic. From my own experiences and from what has been mentioned here in this thread, of all the sub genres of the 'gaming' label, it appears that women prefer Roleplaying.

From my experiences with my 3 sisters growing up, they much preferred to play 'dress-ups' and act out stories with an assortment of various Vinnies clothes my mum had bought for that reason, than use toys to to do the same.

I would do exactly the same thing but project my stories onto my toys. I suppose they would do it with their barbie dolls as well (generally we had different stories in mind) but they seemed more interested in make believe where they were part of the story rather than a 3rd person story teller.
Perhaps this is part of the reason women seem to prefer RPGs?

I think this could well be the case. I’d be interested to hear more discussion along these lines.

It's only anecdotal evidence, of course, but of the three gamer women in my group of friends, only one fits the 'storyteller' mold that has been described here: she's only into RPG's and LARPing, and doesn't play any 'competitive' games at all (oddly enough, though, she's quite the rules lawyer in tabletop RPG's). The other two, including my wife, enjoy the roleplaying aspect, but can both be viciously competitive when board games/ccg's/warhammer is involved (the übercompetitiveness way between my wife and I when we play boardgames has become a thing of legend over here...it's all in good fun, though). Neither of the two women can be described as 'tomboys' in any way, though, so I guess that in my group of friends the reasoning doesn't apply.

The Dude
11-12-2007, 01:55
The problem here is, as with any group (takes Muslims, for example...but don't dwell on that, don't want this to be P&R'd), it's the bad ones that tend to stand out and form the general opinion of people who aren't 'in the know'.
Combine that with the fact that this kind of gaming is a hard thing to explain to 'outsiders', and you're pretty much stuck with the negative stereotypes.

I think this is a fair point. The ones who are generally noticed are the stereotypical ones, the others blend into the background. People could well see a hundred gamers a day, but not realise it until they walk passed GW on games night and see a group of unwashed teens screaming “Waaagh!”

I have a mate who, Gods love him, looks superficially nerdy (by which I mean he’s skinny and has glasses). One day he was discussing music with another guy, and the other guy was shocked that my mate liked the kind of music he did. He went on to say he thought my mate would have liked “Mozart and Sh*t”. The funniest thing was this guy was the most clean-cut looking 17 year old you could imagine, but he loved bands like Slipknot and Korn. Somehow he couldn’t see why his comment made me laugh so much.


The worst thing, though, is that there's something of a 'geek hierarchy (http://www.brunching.com/geekhierarchy.html)' as well, and geeks tend to, for some reason, kick down at the 'lesser' geeks.

That is FANTASTIC!!!

So true though. I think we all have a touch of that “at least I’m not as bad as…” syndrome.


It's only anecdotal evidence, of course, but of the three gamer women in my group of friends, only one fits the 'storyteller' mold that has been described here: she's only into RPG's and LARPing, and doesn't play any 'competitive' games at all (oddly enough, though, she's quite the rules lawyer in tabletop RPG's). The other two, including my wife, enjoy the roleplaying aspect, but can both be viciously competitive when board games/ccg's/warhammer is involved (the übercompetitiveness way between my wife and I when we play boardgames has become a thing of legend over here...it's all in good fun, though). Neither of the two women can be described as 'tomboys' in any way, though, so I guess that in my group of friends the reasoning doesn't apply.

I don’t think we could do any better than anecdotal evidence on this one, but I suppose it would differ as greatly as people do. It's the trends I'd be interested to see.

Makaber
11-12-2007, 01:59
No females. And I like it that way.

I don't want to be forced to take into account that chicks might take offence of my beer-induced belching. I don't want to take into consideration that I look like an utter dork when I start to debate why 7th Ed. neutered my Beastmen. I don't want to offend anyone when I make sexist jokes about my dark elf Sorceress.

der_lex
11-12-2007, 02:08
Hang out with the right kind of women, and they'll not only laugh at the sexist jokes, but come up with worse ones than you could come up with yourself.

Also, the idea that women gamers couldn't get into heated, 'nerdy' debates about rules changes or armies is way, way off target.

It's this kind of stone-age 'no girls allowed' thinking that creates the bad stereotypes that we've seen in this thread.

The Dude
11-12-2007, 02:10
What I meant was that any time I see a thread or post on Warseer (which obviously doesn't mean much for the community at large but does for this community) talking about 'Gamers' in general, it just seems to always be from the perspective of that particular stereotype.

The Apocalypse backpack thread, where people kept talking about geekdom etc.

Or where people start saying things like, 'embrace your smelly ubergeekiness' don't pretend it's something else etc.

It appears to me that when anyone here starts talking about 'The Gamer' they are referring to the stereotyped kind. It would be nice to see 'The Gamer' lose that connotation, so that it isn't implied every time someone rolls their eyes at 'gamers'.

Thinking some more about this, I think it may be a coping mechanism used by people who are regularly ridiculed. Some may call their hobby something else (see previous threads re “toy soldiers”), others appropriate the derogatory term to remove it’s use against them.

I know in High School, I was called a freak quite often, so I reacted by being the freakiest freak I could possibly be and revelling in the title. This didn’t get ingrained, as High School bullies tend to move on to other targets if they don’t get the response they want. Without the need to react to the name-calling, I was able to drop the act and revert to simply being me.

This community is far larger than a High School though, and when you find more people acting the same way to cope, it can start to feel like more than just an act, particularly as you now have what is essentially a whole sub-culture encouraging you to continue acting this way.

The sad thing is, the people who originally teased the self proclaimed “geeks” may have actually grown up themselves and don’t care what the geeks do for a hobby. Unfortunately they may now be limited in their ability to develop as a person because if they change, they receive treatment from their new support network similar to that of the original teasers.

One of us! One of us!


Hang out with the right kind of women, and they'll not only laugh at the sexist jokes, but come up with worse ones than you could come up with yourself.

Also, the idea that women gamers couldn't get into heated, 'nerdy' debates about rules changes or armies is way, way off target.

It's this kind of stone-age 'no girls allowed' thinking that creates the bad stereotypes that we've seen in this thread.

Thank you. No further action necessary :p

Fenriz
11-12-2007, 08:33
I somehow get the feeling Makaber was joking.

But honestly; even if he wasnt, no harm no foul. Hes entitled to his opinion.

Bombot
11-12-2007, 10:27
When even the people that play the game start putting themselves and their hobby down, what do you do?

For the same reason some people (myself included) get annoyed when, say, their own sports fans do something idiotic like boo an opponent's national anthem. They are 'letting the side down' and it's embarassing.

Now, people can be eccentric, but for crying out loud, have a wash at least. If I go into a busy Games Workshop later in the day, I can guarantee it will stink of BO.

The stereotype exists because it is all too true, and it ain't going to go away anytime soon. But only a ***** would think that every single gamer fits that stereotype.

Makaber
11-12-2007, 10:59
I wasn't really joking, but I did exaggerate a bit. What my point was, I don't really mind that girls don't play. A lot of the time, I moderate my behaviour in order to make a good impression on the ladies (we all do it, and you know it). So for me, Warhammer is a nice "Boy's Club" where I can kick back and relax.

That's not to say I activly try to dissuade girls/women from playing, but I don't neccissarily (how the hell do you spell that anyway, I give up) see more female games as a goal we need to work towards, like many others. If they want to play, fine.

Kargush
11-12-2007, 11:18
I've actually met a female 40k gamer. She played with her brother and father, they all had an army each. And she was far from butch.

I've also met girls who were interested in the game, but on one occasion, the gal in question had some friends around who were vocally opposed to the idea. Other than that, I've only met female gamers over the internet. So, they exist. Why make a huge thread of it?

Kohhna
11-12-2007, 11:20
On a related note, how many openly gay men do you tend to get at your local Gw / Indie games shop? Over here, for Warhammer/40k etc. not many, though I do know a couple, for MTG though we do get quite a few. Actually a few of my best friends from the shop where I play MTG are openly gay (and not aversed to psyching out their opponents by flirting with them and/or making bitchy comments about their hair in the middle of a game). I don't know many women who play either, we had one girl out of 30 odd players at States and I don't rememeber seeing any girls at the GW who weren't just there hanging out, but then I haven't been down myself in a while.

Fenriz
11-12-2007, 11:40
I wasn't really joking, but I did exaggerate a bit. What my point was, I don't really mind that girls don't play. A lot of the time, I moderate my behaviour in order to make a good impression on the ladies (we all do it, and you know it). So for me, Warhammer is a nice "Boy's Club" where I can kick back and relax.

That's not to say I activly try to dissuade girls/women from playing, but I don't neccissarily (how the hell do you spell that anyway, I give up) see more female games as a goal we need to work towards, like many others. If they want to play, fine.

I actually think i agree with this more than most other posts. I have to admit i do try to be on my best behaviour around women, and it does add a slight atmosphere when theyre around because you tend to be more careful what you say and do. But after a short while that does disappear as they learn to accept you for who you are much as you learn to accept them for who they are.

Id welcome any new female gamer into the club much as id welcome any new male member. I think the point most women would make is that they dont want to be treated any differently to the rest of the gamers in the room. Thats something a lot of gamers need to learn. Most of them either ogle women gamers, or they treat them like theyre stupid. Thats whats wrong.

I dont think she post on here much anymore, but Cosmic Girl plays 40k. And she is about as far from butch, ugly, geeky, or socially awkward as you can get. Dont know if anyone else from here spoke to her outside of Portent (as it was when i met her originally), but she was a great laugh. Wouldnt have minded a game and few drinks with her alongside my mates. She would have knocked them all into touch.

I havent played a genuine female gamer (transitioning male-to-females non-withstanding) in years. Shame really. Theyre often much better gamers and far nicer to play because they dont get their hackles raised over the rules or all bent out of shape if theyre not winning.

der_lex
11-12-2007, 13:34
I completely agree with your last post, Fenriz. I certainly don't think female gamers should get some kind of special treatment, but I was simply opposed to the whole 'Warhammer should be a boys' club' nonsense. In the end, we're all gamers, and being wary of someone because of their gender is a bit silly.

Wolf Scout Ewan
11-12-2007, 14:54
Personally speaking if a girl gets into GW stuff on her accord then fantastic... all the power to her.

But... too often girls will get into the hobby cos they feel they have to if thier guy does. I really dont like this! It seems really fake.

My signifother thinks its strange to play games with them but likes the scenery I make. I love her regardless of whether she plays or not.

Anointed_By_Filth
11-12-2007, 15:06
That is just wrong, and a terrible stereotype that's perpetuated way too much. Try working in a bar, you'll soon see exactly how much girls are just as predatory as any man.

Your other assumption about the reasons why the few girls are drawn to the hobby are probably fair ones, but I doubt its because of any inheirant differences in the sexes. There's few girls in the hobby as it is, that in itself should be the primary reason why they'd prefer the more solitary activities of the hobby

Which is why I said they TEND to want a meaningful relationship, I didn't say,"ALL WOMEN JUST WANT ONE MAN AND ALL MEN WANT ANY WOMAN THEY CAN GET!" I was placing things in averages, not stating that all men like the bar thing and all women like the stay at home with kids thing. You're just putting words in my mouth and not actually reading what I typed.

The Dude
11-12-2007, 22:57
I completely agree with your last post, Fenriz. I certainly don't think female gamers should get some kind of special treatment, but I was simply opposed to the whole 'Warhammer should be a boys' club' nonsense. In the end, we're all gamers, and being wary of someone because of their gender is a bit silly.

I would go slightly further and suggest that they shouldn’t be subjected to any different treatment to their male counterparts, be that overly polite behaviour (if you’ve just met someone you should be being polite anyway), or drooling stares.

My sister once went to GW to get me a Voucher for my birthday. When I redeemed it (3 weeks after she had purchased it) and mentioned that my sister had gotten it for me, the staff member in question accurately described my sister (thin, blonde, what Hannah would call a Girly Girl ;)), asking if that was her, and then proceeded to pump his fist in the air and cheer about how he sold the voucher to her. Somehow I get the feeling that had my dad purchased it for me, it wouldn’t have elicited the same response :eyebrows:.

When I next spoke to her about it (to tell her what I got, as is polite when given a voucher as a gift :)), she told me how she was really creeped out by the way they behaved, and they all seemed to be crawling over each other to serve her. No customer should be made to feel that way. It’s just not conducive to encouraging repeat visits.

Weagmacht
11-12-2007, 23:26
I've noticed that there's a bit of a tendency for many of the guys who frequent the shop I patronize to be way too macho, as if they're trying to make up for/justify their rather geeky hobby, with excessive swearing, and honestly quite chauvinist remarks. I'm pretty laid back and I enjoy a good vulgarity, but some of these guys give of an air of young kids who have just learned new curse words and are trying to impress their friends.

It wouldn't surpsrie me if some women showed up and felt intimdated or creeped out by the environment, although there are a fair few who come by a lot. The owner's wife and daughter are also around a lot, but I get the impression that the daughter (teenaged and a bit more towards the "girly" side of the spectrum) is a bit embarassed by Dad. :rolleyes:

PotatoLegs
11-12-2007, 23:29
My sister once went to GW to get me a Voucher for my birthday. When I redeemed it (3 weeks after she had purchased it) and mentioned that my sister had gotten it for me, the staff member in question accurately described my sister (thin, blonde, what Hannah would call a Girly Girl ;)), asking if that was her, and then proceeded to pump his fist in the air and cheer about how he sold the voucher to her. Somehow I get the feeling that had my dad purchased it for me, it wouldn’t have elicited the same response :eyebrows:.

When I next spoke to her about it (to tell her what I got, as is polite when given a voucher as a gift :)), she told me how she was really creeped out by the way they behaved, and they all seemed to be crawling over each other to serve her. No customer should be made to feel that way. It’s just not conducive to encouraging repeat visits.



AHAHAHAHA that's awesome :D

You see, any foolish stereotypes are perpetuated by people like these. Poor poor souls that they are.

My gf gets pounced on rather unfairly whenever she enters a GW store but she shrugs it off as being 'cute'. I deliberatly try to avoid the places with the overly enthusiastic sales people though.

Freak Ona Leash
12-12-2007, 01:02
Due to the fact everyone at my local store has a girlfriend or wife, and are a cynical lot of bastards and malcontents, I doubt a woman would be treated any different than a guy in the store. In fact, I've never seen a woman given any sort of different treatment than a man at the store. Oh wow, they have boobs, high-pitched voices and may make your trousers tighten. Fat men can do two of the above (note: this is not an invitation to state which two out of the three fat men do for you ;) ) and they get no preferential treatment at all. :P

PotatoLegs
12-12-2007, 01:33
Roll them naked in flour, punch them in the throat and fat men provide all three for me

Keofoxglove
13-12-2007, 20:12
Hey, I'm a female and I play 40k. I have to admit a guy got me into playing in the first place haha. At least every Monday I am in town I go to the local gaming shop to meet up with my friends. While i don't see very many females there, I don't feel intimidated or bothered just because I am surrounded by guys. I have never been given special treatment or harassed because of my gender and if I was I don't think I'd let it keep me from playing a good game.

My army is not pink and fluffy,
I don't play a female army just because I am overly proud of my gender,
I am not easily offended by male habits,
And i do not put boobs on my marines, nor do I care if you do.

The Dude
14-12-2007, 02:34
I've noticed that there's a bit of a tendency for many of the guys who frequent the shop I patronize to be way too macho, as if they're trying to make up for/justify their rather geeky hobby, with excessive swearing, and honestly quite chauvinist remarks. I'm pretty laid back and I enjoy a good vulgarity, but some of these guys give of an air of young kids who have just learned new curse words and are trying to impress their friends.

I think this could be part of it. See again the "toy soldiers" debate.

"I don't play with toy soldiers, I game with finely crafted scale wargames miniatures." :rolleyes:

forgotten hero
14-12-2007, 08:16
I once, when in town with my girl friend (her town i have to say, not derby), i pop'd into the GW and *cringe!!!* it was like the world stopped... and then the over aggressive sales men jumped in and where all over her, asking what does she collectes, when she said i dont, he then said why not?!? :wtf:. then was acting out stupid things to try and get her to buy stuff... like doing orc impression and then a marine shooting it.............. i was ready to die... because it was giving a very bad impression of my hobby. all this while some 5 or 6 late teens and some mid-age men as well where staring at her the entire time. very much a *cringe* from start to finish. And needless to say, she was NOT!! impressed! and i dont blame her, because if it was women pressuring me in say LaSenza or Ann Summers, she would not be impressed (even though i might.. ;))

now, this could just the be the case of one store or some in-your-face sales men, but this is no way to attract women into our hobby, its why we let our girl friends do there shopping why we go in your toy soldier shop... i have seen it time and again, women stood outside the store.

maybe if GW staff where trained in sales and maybe told to stop jumping at the chance to talk to women like its the last women they will ever see... then it might be more attractive to women. :eyebrows:

anyways... thats my view on this subject.

-Rob

RevEv
14-12-2007, 11:58
Maybe if gamers washed occasionally they may get more interest from girls.

Seriously - I was in the local GW store yesterday with my wife and she commented after on the reek of a couple of the gamers in there... fully grown men by the way and not spotty teens. It doesn't help the image of the hobby.

The irony is - it was my wife who got me in to GW ten years ago, and it was my wife who was picking up the models yesterday (the Ork Spearhead! - Guess who has to make it up!), so she is seriously in to GW.

Here's a clue guys - wash occasionally and do apply deodorant, it might make you more attractive to women (as well as hanging out somewhere other than GW).